A Challenge

[HealthyShape]

However, though legal immigrants, we must now become assimilated into kingdom society. We need to receive the mind of Christ. To think like Him. To behave like Him practically. To exercise kingdom principles toward others. Love. Empathy. Compassion. Doing unto others as we would have others do to us. Learning a life of obedience. In this way we gain fitness for the kingdom. We receive power not just to be immigrants, but to become children. Naturalized citizens.

I think this is a bad analogy. We are born into the kingdom, we do not immigrate there.

 

[Brakelite]

I think this is a bad analogy. We are born into the kingdom, we do not immigrate there.

Maybe the analogy has it's flaws. Not what analogy doesn't? I think the analogy sufficiently explains or exemplifies the truth that there are two stages in our growth toward holiness, as the original poster was querying. Justification, and sanctification. There is of course glorification, which complete the process, but that doesn't take place until the resurrection. In this life, holiness... Righteousness... Is at first imputed through justification and the new birth. Certainly at that point we are changed. There is with many, and I am personally an example, an immediate impact with the new birth. A new worldview is manifested by the entrance of the Spirit of God, new attitudes become apparent, a new appreciation for creation but by far the most impactful,a new realization of the love, grace, mercy and power of God. With me, in my personal experience, such took place within the first 24 hours.
However, deep down I had issues. Sin. Selfishness. Pride. Vanity. Carelessness. Pleasure loving. Addictions to drugs, tobacco, and alcohol. A cold heart unmindful of other's needs, even family. These took time. But God went to work straight away. And 30 years later I am infinitely grateful for all He has accomplished in my life. And I know that there are yet more deeply held issues to be uncovered. I'm a work in progress. Not yet perfected, but longing for that day when I can look upon the face of God and not be destroyed by the glory therein.
So maybe not the perfect analogy. But two stages nevertheless of our progress toward holiness. Justification, sanctification. The first the moment we believe. The second, the work of a life time.

 

[quietthinker]

Maybe the analogy has it's flaws. Not what analogy doesn't? I think the analogy sufficiently explains or exemplifies the truth that there are two stages in our growth toward holiness, as the original poster was querying. Justification, and sanctification. There is of course glorification, which complete the process, but that doesn't take place until the resurrection. In this life, holiness... Righteousness... Is at first imputed through justification and the new birth. Certainly at that point we are changed. There is with many, and I am personally an example, an immediate impact with the new birth. A new worldview is manifested by the entrance of the Spirit of God, new attitudes become apparent, a new appreciation for creation but by far the most impactful,a new realization of the love, grace, mercy and power of God. With me, in my personal experience, such took place within the first 24 hours.
However, deep down I had issues. Sin. Selfishness. Pride. Vanity. Carelessness. Pleasure loving. Addictions to drugs, tobacco, and alcohol. A cold heart unmindful of other's needs, even family. These took time. But God went to work straight away. And 30 years later I am infinitely grateful for all He has accomplished in my life. And I know that there are yet more deeply held issues to be uncovered. I'm a work in progress. Not yet perfected, but longing for that day when I can look upon the face of God and not be destroyed by the glory therein.
So maybe not the perfect analogy. But two stages nevertheless of our progress toward holiness. Justification, sanctification. The first the moment we believe. The second, the work of a life time.

Do you think you are better than lets say, 10 years ago?

 

[Lambano]

Do you think you are better than lets say, 10 years ago?

And can I get a second opinion from your spouse on that?

 

[Marvelloustime]

You wanna know what i find so devastating for many .
While they will remind one to do the good works , like visting the poor , feeding the poor
MAN DO THEY DENY Many other THINGS JESUS said to do .
Talk about its all in vain . And i do mean IN VAIN .
for many will outright contradict His words , even approving certain sins
EVEN approving this unbelief k oran kissing budda statue kissing broad path of unbeleif
as though it were and is the LOVE OF GOD HIMSELF .
Believe me when i say
ITS true that faith without works is dead
BUT IF ONE HAS NOT FAITH IN CHRIST , their works , no matter how they gave to the poor
WILL NOT SAVE THEM . ITS ALL in vain .
And yet i see a love religion doing just that . Oh feed the poor they say , BUT SHUT THINE MOUTH about JESUS .
OH visit the sick , But SHUT UP about any sins , and more so they even hold r ainbows
and honor sins . AS IF GOD be pleased with that .
OH ITS ALL IN VAIN and the double minded man IS unstable in all His ways .
They hate the good and love the evil . T hey throw far behind them the very words of GOD
in favor of speeches that serve the flesh and lusts of men .
THE very gospel is abandoned and done so under the guise of what They THINK is LOVE and oF GOD .
But boy has it made a path so large to GOD it includes anyone , cept perhaps those who DO HOLD A BIBLE and do correct .
Those are known as haters , even called haters of GOD , of OVE , of humanity . AINT that something .
What a delusion has come upon this world and much of christendom to merge it as one
to the day OF THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION . to the day OF ARMEGEDDON .
Only they think its the path to peace n safety .

@amigo de christo

 

[Taken]

If the above be true, I have a number of questions.
a. Why is it that the majority of Christian churches today teach that men who die in their sins do not die, but live for all eternity, and are therefore given immortality, being tortured in hell?

I do not know what the majority of Christian churches teach…
However to your point I would say…
From my personal experience with professing Christians….

Many DO believe …
The “UN-Saved man IS Tortured Forever IN Hell.”

I believe THAT position is absolutely False.

b. If it be true that eternal torment is the just penalty for sin, then why did Jesus not pay it?

The creator and maker…does not stand against Himself.

c. If the reward for those who do accept the gospel is eternal life, and granted as a gift (John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23) and no churches deny this, why do those same churches insist that the wicked also receive the gift of eternal life, which is denied by the very same scriptures?(John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23)

Acknowledging…
For centuries The Word of God, was Orally Taught “without” a Way and Means (Scripture) for men (at large) to VERIFY what they Heard…
…
The “Umpteen…(Secular under the guise of Religion)…. companion writings / doctrines / books / teachings…
…have; by design (in many cases made)…
Scripture …
A Negative Source for Standing IN Christ…
And
A Positive Source of a Weapon For men Against men.

d. And finally, if eternal torment is the just penalty for sin as most contend, we must logically conclude that because Jesus did not pay that price, then the gospel is a sham and we all, both Christian and pagan alike, are doomed to spend eternity suffering together.

Eternal Torment Only Applies TO an eternally Alive being that IS Against God.
(Pssst. Men are not eternally alive beings).

Good challenge.
God bless you Brakelite.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Brakelite]

Do you think you are better than lets say, 10 years ago?

Compared to what? What I was or what Christ is? To the former yes, decidedly, to the latter, marginally. What's important is not the accomplishment, but the trend. I'm heading in the right direction. If I'm not, God has ceased His work in me, because I've walked away.

 

[quietthinker]

Compared to what? What I was or what Christ is? To the former yes, decidedly, to the latter, marginally. What's important is not the accomplishment, but the trend. I'm heading in the right direction. If I'm not, God has ceased His work in me, because I've walked away.

Interesting!
For myself, my early walk as a believer was marked by positive shifts I could easily identify. As time has gone by and my knowledge of Jesus has increased, I see the flaws in my character, and increasingly so, flaws I was oblivious to I my earlier years.
What I have become conscious of is that I love people even when they piss me off here and there. This has been the biggest shift; a shift I never anticipated or expected.
My shortcomings don't seem to be getting less but rather more; they seem to be ever present.....even while there is an abiding assurance, peace and confidence in my Salvation.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.


Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my first question is..... And yes it's rhetorical...

When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

Okay, that the full and final redemption price has been paid on behalf of a lost race would be disputed by few who know their Bibles. That Jesus paid the price, taking upon Himself the full punishment that was rightly due sinful man, is the great central theme of the gospel, in fact, all of scripture. It is called by many names. Redemption. Atonement. Salvation. Vicarius sacrifice. Propitiation. They all mean one and the same thing. That the just died for the unust. The sinless for the sinner. Christ died in our place.
Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. “With His stripes we are healed.” The punishment and full penalty that belonged justly and rightly to us, was laid upon Christ. He died that we might live. Very few would dare to argue with this most profound and fundamental of Biblical truths. And the entire OT terrified to this without exception, right from the Garden of Eden. And there are scores of scriptures in the NT that verify and support this most wonderful doctrine.
Romans 3:25,26; 5:8,9; 6:10.
Colossians 1:20-22.
Hebrews 2:14,15; 9:15,22.
1 Peter 1:18,19; 2:24; 3:18.
Revelation 1:18; 5:9

These are but a small selection but enough to deduce the following basic principles inherent in the atonement.

1. Because death is the due and just penalty for sin (Rom. 6:23), death therefore was the redemptive price.
2. Jesus, through the shedding of His own blood and His vicarius death upon the cross, paid that price in full.
3. Those who for whatever reason reject the offer of forgiveness inherent in the atonement, and thus are not included in the number of the redeemed, must pay the price themselves.

If the above be true, I have a number of questions.
a. Why is it that the majority of Christian churches today teach that men who die in their sins do not die, but live for all eternity, and are therefore given immortality, being tortured in hell?

b. If it be true that eternal torment is the just penalty for sin, then why did Jesus not pay it?

c. If the reward for those who do accept the gospel is eternal life, and granted as a gift (John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23) and no churches deny this, why do those same churches insist that the wicked also receive the gift of eternal life, which is denied by the very same scriptures?(John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23)

d. And finally, if eternal torment is the just penalty for sin as most contend, we must logically conclude that because Jesus did not pay that price, then the gospel is a sham and we all, both Christian and pagan alike, are doomed to spend eternity suffering together.

Good questions. * My answers go against the traditional teaching of eternal hell.
A. Confusion to the meaning of death, the word aionios and the distinction between Hades and Hell (.The Lake of Fire). The wages of sin is death. Death means the destruction of both soul and body in Hell (see Matt. 10:28). Atonement is satisfied by Christ shed blood alone.
(see Lev. 17:11 & Heb. 8:22)
His blood was shed and body died but His soul/spirit remained in tact.
Aionios has variable Meanings according to how it's applied. When speaking of our temporary, physical realm, it means age(s), lifetime(s), generation(s), epoch.
So everlasting mea s age-lasting or age- during. When applied to God, His domain and our future in hea en, it means eternal.
I think the scribes knew the difference when translating the same word, aionios in this key verse:
Matt. 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So the punishment ( death) is age-lasting and the our life, eternal.

 This answers questions B, C and D as well.