A Christian who deny Jesus is God in Flesh

[Wrangler]

And, it is.

No. The trinity is NOT in the Bible despite trinitarian creative interpretations of unitarian text.

 

[Wrangler]

You are simply being ignorant of the scriptures in the Bible that teach the doctrine of the Trinity.

If it were not in the Bible, it would not be believed in by Christians.

It is not in the Bible. I know this being I read the Bible and am not ignorant at all. Like before the Protestant Reformation, people believe what they are told the Bible says. Just admit the trinity is not in the Bible and we can move on.

Instead, you move the goal posts to claim 'the doctrine of the trinity' is in the Bible while not admitting the trinity, itself, is not in the Bible. You synthesize verses out of context to claim whatever you want is in the unitarian text.

Because they do not start out with the truth:
1. The entire Bible is written by monotheists (unitarians), who have rejected the trinity concept for 1,000’s of years.
2. Jesus was a Jew, born under the law, who was also a unitarian as Mark 12:28-31 definitively demonstrate.
3. Jesus repeatedly affirmed God was greater than he, knew more than he, he only said what God told him and he was sent by God.
4. The resurrected Jesus said he was going to his God in John 20:17. The only God is Jesus’ God.
5. The Apostles consistently opened their letters defying the trinity, acknowledging the only 2 beings relevant to their lives, God and his Servant Messiah.

Instead, trinitarians start with their doctrine and impose a trinitarian interpretation onto the unitarian text.

This is why they ignore and balk at my previous point. Resorting to insults or personal attacks is how you know they have lost the argument. If the plural ‘our’ is important in Genesis, the singular ‘me’ in the 1C must be even more important.

 

[justbyfaith]

No. The trinity is NOT in the Bible despite trinitarian creative interpretations of unitarian text.

What Bible are you reading? I take it you must be reading the new World Translation.

Because in most normal translations, you will see clearly the doctrine of the Trinity by the time you get to John 1:14 in the gospel of John.

It is not in the Bible. I know this being I read the Bible

I think you must be reading the wrong Bible.

Instead, trinitarians start with their doctrine and impose a trinitarian interpretation onto the unitarian text.

I know that I started with a clean slate as concerning doctrine; and by the time I got to John 1:14, I understood that the doctrine of the Trinity is the reality.

Resorting to insults or personal attacks is how you know they have lost the argument.

And, please notice that I have never done that with you.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Mat_1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Mar_10:47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.

Mar_12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?

Rom_1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

2Ti_2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Rev_22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


Jesus is not God HE came from God, See and a lightning bolt hasn't killed me and I am still saved.

How do you explain John 1:1?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome."

 

[Wrangler]

What Bible are you reading? I take it you must be reading the new World Translation.

I've devotionally read CEV, NLT cover to cover. Partially read ESV & VOICE, my favorite spirit led translation. For my devotionals this year, I am reading NRSV and CJB. I never heard of or read new World Translation.

Because in most normal translations, you will see clearly the doctrine of the Trinity by the time you get to John 1:14 in the gospel of John.

The figurative language of John is amazing but it does not displace the literal verses on the matter. John 1:14 is an excellent verse to disprove the trinity in the Bible. The obsession with the man-is-God thesis causes trinitarians to overlook their own doctrine! NOTE: John 1:14 totally ignores the so-called '3rd person' because Biblical writers did not recognize this 4th century idolatry. Jesus was a Jew and there is no evidence he ever stopped being Jewish. The entirety of the Bible is written by anti-trinitarian Jewish authors. The proper interpretation of the John 1 is fulfilling Deuteronomy 18:15-18, a man, a prophet was raised up by God and His words were put in his mouth - as Jesus said @ John 12:49.

The Voice took on flesh and became human and chose to live alongside us. We have seen Him, enveloped in undeniable splendor—the one true Son of the Father—evidenced in the perfect balance of grace and truth.
John 1:14 (Voice)

And, please notice that I have never done that with you.

Yes. I have noticed that and do appreciate it. My guess is going back to the OP, A Christian who deny Jesus is God in Flesh generally reject the trinity. See my thread on The Case Against The Trinity. Jesus is my Savior. Jesus is the man I owe allegiance to. That is, he is my lord. But he is not the LORD God. Both Jesus and you and me are son's of God. Jesus was the only son of God (as all 1st borns are only children until more children come along) and remains the only son resurrected in a glorified body. See Acts 13:32-33

 

[justbyfaith]

Jhn 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2, The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:14, And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I don't see how anyone can read that and not get the doctrine of the Trinity out of it.

Especially in light of Psalms 90:2.

 

[Wrangler]

I don't see how anyone can read that and not get the doctrine of the Trinity out of it.

Because the entire Bible is written by anti-trinitarian authors! Obviously, you are transposing your trinitarian doctrine onto the text and did not read Deuteronomy 18:15-18 or watch the vid I provided.

 

[justbyfaith]

Because the entire Bible is written by anti-trinitarian authors!

That is your predisposed bias and your presupposition.

 

[Wrangler]

That is your predisposed bias and your presupposition.

No. It is an undisputed fact. The Jews reject the trinity and the Jews wrote the Bible.

 

[justbyfaith]

Obviously, you are transposing your trinitarian doctrine onto the text and did not read Deuteronomy 18:15-18 or watch the vid I provided.

Deuteronomy 18:15-18 does not cancel out Isaiah 9:6.

And no, I did not watch the video, it is too long for my taste; especially since I would rather not be deceived by it. Why then would I take the time to listen to it?

 

[justbyfaith]

No. It is an undisputed fact. The Jews reject the trinity and the Jews wrote the Bible.

It is very disputable. The Jews who wrote the Bible didn't reject the Trinity; for they wrote about it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus is my Savior. Jesus is the man I owe allegiance to. That is, he is my lord.

You cannot confess that Jesus is the Lord except by the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

Can you do that in light of what it says in Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21?

 

[Wrangler]

Deuteronomy 18:15-18 does not cancel out Isaiah 9:6.

Indeed.Can you give a reason why Jews say Isaiah 9:6 does not refer to Jesus?

 

[Wrangler]

It is very disputable. The Jews who wrote the Bible didn't reject the Trinity; for they wrote about it.

Demonstrably not true. The trinity is not in the Bible.

 

[Wrangler]

You cannot confess that Jesus is the Lord except by the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

There are only 2 beings or persons. God and his suffering servant. God is Spirit and his Spirit is holy.

3 With that in mind, I want you to understand that no one saying “Jesus is cursed” is operating under God’s Spirit, and no one confessing “Jesus is Lord” can do so without the Holy Spirit’s inspiration.
1 Corinthians 12:3 (Voice)

 

[justbyfaith]

Indeed.Can you give a reason why Jews say Isaiah 9:6 does not refer to Jesus?

Why do Jews say Isaiah 9:6 does not refer to Jesus? What is the reason behind this? Let's find out.

Answer: Christian theologians argue that the name "A wonderful counselor is the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the ruler of peace" refers to Jesus, who they allege combined human and divine qualities. They mistakenly believe that such a name can only be applied to God Himself. Moreover, the Christians incorrectly translate the verbs in verse 5 in the future tense, instead of the past, as the Hebrew original reads. Thus, the Christians render verse 5 as: "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on his shoulders; and his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

While admitting that "wonderful counselor" and "ruler of peace" can be applied to a man, Christian theologians argue that the phrases "mighty God" and "everlasting Father" cannot be incorporated as part of a man's name. Thus, they contend that Isaiah teaches that the Messiah has to be not only a man, but God as well. That this entire reasoning is incorrect may be seen from the name Elihu, "My God is He," which refers to an ordinary human being (Job 32:1, 1 Samuel 1:l, 1 Chronicles 12:21, 26:7, 27:18). A similar Christian misunderstanding of Scripture may be seen in their claims revolving around the name Immanuel, "God is with us." The simple fact is that it is quite common in the Bible for human beings to be given names that have the purpose of declaring or reflecting a particular attribute of God, e.g., Eliab, Eliada, Elzaphan, Eliakim, Elisha, Eleazar, Tavel, Gedaliah.

The fact remains that Jesus did not literally or figuratively fulfill any of Isaiah's words. A wonderful counselor does not advise his followers that if they have faith they can be agents of destruction (Matthew 21:19-21; Mark 11:14, 20-23). A mighty God does not take orders from anyone (Luke2:51, Hebrews 5:8), for no one is greater than he is (Matthew 12:31-32; John 5:30, 14:28). Moreover, he does not ask or need to be saved by anyone (Matthew 26:39, Luke 22:42), for he cannot die by any means (Matthew 27:50, Mark 15:37, Luke 23:46, John 19:30). He who is called the Son of God the Father (John 1:18, 3:16) cannot himself be called everlasting Father. One cannot play simultaneously the role of the son and the Father; it is an obvious self-contradiction. He who advocates family strife (Matthew 10:34-35, Luke 12:49-53) and killing enemies (Luke 19:27) cannot be called a ruler of peace.

All of these are mere arguments that do not refute the fact that Jesus, who is the Son of God, shall have the name of "The everlasting Father" because of the zeal of the LORD of hosts (Isaiah 9:6-7).

New Living Translation:
2Co 10:3, We are human, but we don’t wage war as humans do.
2Co 10:4, We use God’s mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments.
2Co 10:5, We destroy every proud obstacle that keeps people from knowing God. We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ.

I believe that the mighty weapon of prayer will demolish these false arguments in your mind; for your argument is not with man but with God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Demonstrably not true. The trinity is not in the Bible.

What you are saying is not true. The doctrine of the Trinity is most definitely found in the Bible.

True Trinity. (posts #1-#6)

 

[Wrangler]

What you are saying is not true. The doctrine of the Trinity is most definitely found in the Bible.

(will post a link shortly).

Haven't we been through this before? Don't bother!

"The doctrine of the trinity" is not the trinity. It is moving the goalposts. I reject trinitarianism but admit there are some verses THAT APPEAR to support some of it. Funny how trinitarians cannot even admit the trinity is not in the Bible. There is no verse like There is one God, who is trinitarian in nature - consisting of the F, S & HS - and if you do not believe this you cannot be saved.

 

[justbyfaith]

You cannot confess that Jesus is the Lord except by the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

Can you do that in light of what it says in Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21?

There are only 2 beings or persons. God and his suffering servant. God is Spirit and his Spirit is holy.

How does that answer what I have said in my above post?

3 With that in mind, I want you to understand that no one saying “Jesus is cursed” is operating under God’s Spirit, and no one confessing “Jesus is Lord” can do so without the Holy Spirit’s inspiration.
1 Corinthians 12:3 (Voice)

I believe that you have once again done what is prophesied in 2 Timothy 4:3 and heaped for yourself a teacher in a translator of a Bible other than the kjv to tell you what your itching ears want to hear.

This is the reality:

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

We have one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); and He is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

If you cannot say that Jesus is the Lord in light of this fact, you do not have the Holy Ghost.

And, I'm sorry to say, that is the bottom line.

 

[justbyfaith]

Haven't we been through this before? Don't bother!

"The doctrine of the trinity" is not the trinity. It is moving the goalposts. I reject trinitarianism but admit there are some verses THAT APPEAR to support some of it. Funny how trinitarians cannot even admit the trinity is not in the Bible. There is no verse like There is one God, who is trinitarian in nature - consisting of the F, S & HS - and if you do not believe this you cannot be saved.

Right...which is why some Oneness Pentecostals, who reject the Trinity but not the Deity of Christ, may in fact be saved.

The doctrine that is essential to salvation is apparently the Deity of Christ. For Jesus said,

Jhn 8:24, I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

And He was obviously referencing back to Exodus 3:14 in order to make a claim; for that scripture was well-known by all the Jewish people when Jesus spoke those words.