A Christian who deny Jesus is God in Flesh

[justbyfaith]

you think the entire essence of the Most High,which is infinite, the one who says His glory can not be contained in this world, fits into the physical temporary body of a human.
i guess some will say anything, no matter how absurd, when they are desperate to support a doctrine with as many holes in it as the trinity.

See Luke 1:37...

It may appear to be absurd or foolishness to you; but that is par for the course (1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 1:18-29).

You said it well a few posts ago; the trinity is self-contradictory. 1 = 1; 3 = 3; 1 = 3. Mysticism and dualism.

The result of the problem is either 1 or 3 depending on whether you add or multiply. 1 + 1 + 1 = 3.

1 x 1 x 1 = 1. This demonstrates radically the Triune nature of our God.

 

[jaybird]

See Luke 1:37...

It may appear to be absurd or foolishness to you; but that is par for the course (1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 1:18-29).

thats the logic that lead to the followers of Jim Jones drinking the koolaid. how did that work out for them?

 

[jaybird]

You said it well a few posts ago; the trinity is self-contradictory. 1 = 1; 3 = 3; 1 = 3. Mysticism and dualism.

Jesus, the Father and the bible do not contradict themselves. when they do you are you are deviating from the way. the Most High says He is not a man, trinity says the Most High is a man. etc etc.
Jesus and the 12 taught love, forgiveness, helping those in need. the church after the trinity burned people, Christian people, alive, executed thousands at a time for not being Christian, tortured other Christians. before Jesus the Jews had their ups and downs, but they never burned people alive, never conquered other nations and killed people because they were non Jews.
Jesus said we will know bad teachers by their fruit.

 

[justbyfaith]

the Most High says He is not a man, trinity says the Most High is a man. etc etc.

Num 23:19, God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

This was obviously written in the OT before Jesus was incarnated. And God, at that time, was not a man.

However, it became prophesied by Isaiah that the everlasting Father would become a Man (Isaiah 9:6) and this was fulfilled in the NT by Jesus Christ.

 

[Wrangler]

the church after the trinity burned people, Christian people, alive, executed thousands at a time for not being <TRINITARIANS>, tortured other Christians.

Clearly, this thread reveals the true passion of trinitarians, the man-is-God thesis.

The Scriptural evidence is so weak, they have to rely on figurative language to suppose it supersedes the overwhelming direct evidence AGAINST trinitarianism and the man-is-God thesis, e.g, Jesus saying God is greater than he is.

The most obvious Scriptural evidence AGAINST the trinity is the fact that the trinity is not in Scripture - not the word, not the concept. The mental gymnastics these mystics employ is comical. The entire Bible is written by Jews, who reject the trinity for 1,000’s of years to this very day!

Trinitarians make it seem like the central message of the Bible is The nature of God is a trinity of F, S & HS and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved. Jesus said the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) is the most important commandment in Mark 12:29-30 and to follow him. He didn’t ever say anything about salvation being a function of believing 3 is 1.

The BIG REVEAL in Scripture is in Mark 14:60-62 where Jesus admitted to the Pharisees that he is the Messiah. This “I am” is not the one they want to admit is the one he died for. They want to pretend elsewhere this is a claim for being God incarnate, which is not just poor reading comprehension but projecting doctrine onto unitarian text.

Most importantly, this false doctrine undermines the Good News, that Jesus is one of us, a man, a brother, who found and shared the path to God, to salvation for us to follow. Through him, we can accept the divine Spirit of God and share in the inheritance that is our birth right (being reborn in the Spirit of God). Jesus is the first fruits, we are like him who come after the first.

Justbyfaith has his answer as to why Christians do not accept Jesus is God in the flesh; it is not what Scripture actually says. Mark 1:1 tells us this is the story of the Son of God (the Messiah), not the story of God incarnate. The Son of God is not properly transposed to be God, the Son but Justbyfaith will never accept this.

I’ll leave this thread here. Otherwise, we will just be repeating ourselves.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus was incarnated.

John 3:16 says what we all know; Jesus was begotten, not incarnated.

 

[justbyfaith]

the overwhelming direct evidence AGAINST trinitarianism and the man-is-God thesis, e.g, Jesus saying God is greater than he is.

And of course that is concerning the humanity of Jesus in the hypostatic union.

In His Deity, Jesus and the Father are equal to one another (John 5:18).

The most obvious Scriptural evidence AGAINST the trinity is the fact that the trinity is not in Scripture - not the word, not the concept.

The concept is definitely found in scripture.

Those who don't see it are afflicted by a disease that is spoken of in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

This “I am” is not the one they want to admit is the one he died for.

Sure He died for that "I am" statement.

He also died for the "I AM" statement that He made in John 8:58; which clearly in the eyes of the Pharisees was a claim to Deity (John 8:59, John 10:31-33).

Mark 1:1 tells us this is the story of the Son of God (the Messiah), not the story of God incarnate. The Son of God is not properly transposed to be God, the Son but Justbyfaith will never accept this.

You're right...because the scripture is clear (Isaiah 9:6) that the son that was given shall have the name "The everlasting Father."

How can this be the case if He is not the everlasting Father?

John 3:16 says what we all know; Jesus was begotten, not incarnated.

1 John 4:1-3 & 2 John 1:7 say that Jesus was incarnated and that all those who deny this scriptural fact have the spirit of antichrist.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Sabbath Day and Jesus

 

[jaybird]

Num 23:19, God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

This was obviously written in the OT before Jesus was incarnated. And God, at that time, was not a man.

However, it became prophesied by Isaiah that the everlasting Father would become a Man (Isaiah 9:6) and this was fulfilled in the NT by Jesus Christ.

The bible says the Most High does not change, trinity says He does.
Trinity always causes conflict.

 

[justbyfaith]

The bible says the Most High does not change, trinity says He does.
Trinity always causes conflict.

The Spirit that descended and took on an added nature of human flesh did not change.

For one thing, the Father stayed behind in eternity.

And for another, He is the same Spirit, unchanged, who took on an added nature of human flesh.

 

[jaybird]

The Spirit that descended and took on an added nature of human flesh did not change.

For one thing, the Father stayed behind in eternity.

So one Most High was in the heavens, and another was down here in this world.
Ohh boy smh

 

[justbyfaith]

So one Most High was in the heavens, and another was down here in this world.
Ohh boy smh

Same Spirit.

 

[jaybird]

Same Spirit.

The spirit of the Most High can be in 50 million places at once, it doesn't mean they are all the Most High. The spirit was in Elijah no one confused him with the Most High

 

[justbyfaith]

The spirit of the Most High can be in 50 million places at once, it doesn't mean they are all the Most High. The spirit was in Elijah no one confused him with the Most High

The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24). All the fulness of that Spirit dwells in Jesus Christ, in bodily form (Colossians 2:9).

Elijah did not have the fulness of the Spirit; for Elishah received a double portion of Elijah's spirit after he went up in the fiery chariots.

 

[jaybird]

The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24). All the fulness of that Spirit dwells in Jesus Christ, in bodily form (Colossians 2:9).

Elijah did not have the fulness of the Spirit; for Elishah received a double portion of Elijah's spirit after he went up in the fiery chariots.

Your not understanding it. Your taking these symbolic / metaphorical passages and trying to make them into something else. When you do this, and it contradicts other passages, it means your not understanding it.
If the Father is spirit, and all spirit was in Jesus, then there would be no spirit left in the heavens now would there. By your own logic the Father was still in the heavens.
It makes little difference how much spirit is in someone, Elijah did miracles just the same as Jesus, Elijah didn't do them in his own name nor his own authority, the Father did them through Elijah. What did Jesus say, His works were not His own but the Father working through Him. And yet no one would ever get this if they follow the trinity as the trinity says Jesus is the same as the Father and would need no authority as his own authority would suffice.
Again the trinity turns all these important teaching on their head, and for what, so we will believe the Father is capable of becoming a man which we have never doubted to begin with but proving this serves no purpose nor benefit.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Father descended to take on an added nature of human flesh.

However, He dwells in eternity (Isaiah 57:15); and the nature of eternity is that if someone dwells there, they are there eternally.

So he did not vacate eternity when He descended.

 

[justbyfaith]

@soul, your quote that has my name on it is not something that I have said (on two counts). Kindly change it to fit the poster who said it.

 

[jaybird]

I said, "God did not use angels to create man in His image and likeness (Gen. 1:26)...," not that angels create/act on their own, in response to your claim God did use angels to create man in His image and likeness. Misrepresenting my argument is the last act of a desperate man.

your claiming angels were not used because the Lord created, not angels, had angels been involved it would not have been an act of the Lord. any act of angels is an act of the Lord, they do not act on their own. that is what is being explained to you time and time again, you refuse to accept it because it destroys your "the Lord works alone" idea. the bible says the Lord created man, the bible says the Lord destroyed sodom, angels were involved in the destruction of sodom so we know when the bible says the Lord destroyed sodom, it means angels acted in that destruction.

You asked, "Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah?" and "When sodom was destroyed was it done in the way of angels or the way of the Lord?" Again, the latter is a rephrasing of the former, for the word "rephrase" means to "express (an idea or question) in an alternative way."

an example of that would be:
who destroyed sodom?
when sodom was destroyed who did it?

how it was destroyed is different.

answer to question one would be the Lord.
answer to question two is fire.
are fire and the Lord the same, the answer would be no.if we follow your logic, we make a fire in the backyard we are making another Most High.

you dont answer because you know the sodom destruction proves an action of the Lord includes the actions of angels and proves you wrong, the whole "im not gonna answer because its not relevant" is not fooling anyone.

I did not answer as it was unnecessary,

sure you didnt

but more importantly, I did not run away from it,

when someone asks a question, and you reply, im not gonna answer, thats called running away.

because I did explain why the answer does not apply in Gen. 1:26 in post #584 in The Case Against the Trinity thread. It is nine days later and you have not yet presented your counter-argument.

However, God did not use angels to create man in His image and likeness.

"Let us make man to our image and likeness" (Gen. 1:26). If "us" referred to God and angels, then "our image and likeness" referred to the image and likeness of God and the image and likeness of angels. That would mean man was not created to the image and likeness of only God, which contradicts Gen. 1:27 where it says man was created only to God's image and likeness.

this is 584 and has nothing to do with anything., if anything it proves what i am saying. Adam was a son of the Most High, Jesus was a son of the Most High, and Jesus says men are sons of the Most High. the Essenes of the DSS believed son of the Most High is the true self of mankind.
the only image we have of sons of the Most High is the same image as mankind.

 

[101G]

John 17 1-3

The High Priestly Prayer

1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Jesus says the Father is the only true G-D. why do trins ignore these passages? i guess they dont ignore them, they redefine words like "only" to mean other persons are also the Most High which is the opposite meaning of "only" but in the trinity world everything is backwards and inverted.

not in John 17:3. is not JESUS the TRUE and LIVING GOD? Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." here the definite article is used of the Son as GOD, the almighty, the ONE TRUE and LIVING God. but some, (not all), don't understand God's diversity of the EQUAL SHARE of himself in a glorified body. when people see the Conjunction "and" as in John 17 ...... John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." this is the mistake, the "AND" people make. many think it's a seperate and distinct person, (some not all), when in fact it's the same one, and "ONLY" Person...... Example, James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." so is God "AND" the Father two separate person? answer, NO. Father is a title of God. just as Son is a title of God also. Father, Ordinal "First", or the Alpha, keep this in mind... "Alpha. Son, Ordinal Last, Omega. but John 17:2 explain John 17:3 clearly, John 17:2 "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.". ok question time, how many have "ETERNAL LIFE?" let the bible tell us...... 1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;"
1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."
here, "immortality", is ETERNAL LIFE, as John 17:3 states, Now lets do a little digging, the definition of immortality here in 1 Timothy 6:16 is the Greek word, G110 ἀθανασία athanasia (a-tha-na-siy'-a) n.
1. deathlessness, immortality.
2. not bound or subject to death.
[from a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and G2288]
KJV: immortality
Root(s): G1, G2288

notice the ROOT of this Word G1, well what is G1, answer,
G1 α a (al'-fah) n.
ἄν an (an') [before a vowel]
1. Alpha, the first letter of the alphabet.
2. (numerically) the first.
3. (figuratively) only.
4. (prefix, commonly) not, without (a-, an-, i.e. amoral, anarchy).
5. (prefix, occasionally) in the sense of a union (a-, i.e. akin, “adelphos” which is Greek for “brother” or “of same womb”).
{Often used as a prefix in composition in the sense of privation (as a contraction from G427); occasionally in the sense of union (as a contraction of G260)}
[of Hebrew origin]
KJV: Alpha

now, where is this word found at in the bible in the Greek? lets check the RECORD and find out,
1. Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

2. Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

3. Revelation 21:6 "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

4. Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

what we have here in Revelation, the amalgamation of the "Father, and the Son, who is the Holy Spirit, Glorified in Flesh and bone. this is the "Glorification" that JESUS spoke of in John 17:5, LISTEN, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." BINGO.

Well now, we have a problem, if Jesus is not the TRUE GOD, as stated in John 17:3. then the bible is in contridiction with itself, (and it's never in contridiction with itself.). JESUS is the ONLY, let us say it again, JESUS is the ONLY one who have "ETERNAL LIFE". well that JUST throwed many peoples iinterpretation into jeopardy, concering John 17:3. the answer is Clear, (smile).
but now you have the choice of, A. to believe that Jesus is the Father in Flesh as the title states, Son, or you can believe that the bible is wrong in stating that Jesus as the Alpha and Omega, is the Lord God almighty as Revelation 1:8 states, ....... your choice YIKES!.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[jaybird]

I said, "God did not use angels to create man in His image and likeness (Gen. 1:26)...," not that angels create/act on their own, in response to your claim God did use angels to create man in His image and likeness. Misrepresenting my argument is the last act of a desperate man.

i have already proved that the Lord uses angels to destroy cities and the bible credits the destruction to the Lord. here are a few more examples of the Lords council.

Isaiah 14:13, 14
13 “But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly in the recesses of the north.
14 ‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’

Jeremiah 23:16-18, 21, 22

16 Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you, filling you with vain hopes. They speak visions of their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord. 17They say continually to those who despise the word of the Lord, ‘It shall be well with you’; and to everyone who stubbornly follows his own heart, they say, ‘No disaster shall come upon you.’”


18 For who among them has stood in the council of the Lord

to see and to hear his word,

or who has paid attention to his word and listened?


21 “I did not send the prophets,

yet they ran;

I did not speak to them,

yet they prophesied.

22 But if they had stood in my council,

then they would have proclaimed my words to my people,

and they would have turned them from their evil way,

and from the evil of their deeds.

In Is you have Satan seeking out this position of power at the head of this council and Jer teaching that prophets stand in this council as part of their instruction on speaking to the people of this world.

I dont think you get what this council does.

Again:

Daniel 4:17, 23-25

17 The sentence is by the decree of the watchers, the decision by the word of the holy ones, to the end that the living may know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will and sets over it the lowliest of men.’


23 And because the king saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, ‘Chop down the tree….
24 It is a decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king,
25 that you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field…till you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men….

This decree is called the “decree of the watchers”, and then “the decision by the word of the holy ones,” and finally “ a decree of the Most High”

the holy ones are in the council, and as the scripture shows, their acts, their decrees, are the acts and decrees of the Most High.

And again:

Isaiah 6:8 (ESV)

And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.”

and here we are back the that exact same language used in Gen 1 “who will go for “us”. Isiah is sent, a prophet of the Most High.

feel free to continue denying all this but we both know you have been thoroughly refuted.

also i am still waiting on an example showing the Lord talks to himself before He does something, i still can not believe you guys really believe the Most High, creator of all things, in all His majesty, talks to himself they way mentally ill people do.