A Common Error:

[tom55]

A careful reading of the 4 gospel and the first 7 chapters of Acts tell that what Jesus and the 12 were doing is trying to get the Jews to accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah and King.


Rom 15:8 (NKJ) 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:


I have already given you that Jesus by His own words, did not come to the Gentiles. He only came to the House of Israel but you ignore them.

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
-
Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

No where did Jesus or the 12 teach the gospel of grace as given to Paul. How could Jesus teach grace before He shed His blood on the cross. Would you care to talk about Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ) and Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)

I counted FIVE questions in my email......You didn't answer any of them. WHY??

 

[H. Richard]

I counted FIVE questions in my email......You didn't answer any of them. WHY??

I never got any email from you. However I see you do not care to talk about where Jesus, by His own words, said He did not come except to the House of Israel Why is that?

 

[Mungo]

H Richard, can you clarify.

Are you saying that Jesus taught a different gospel to that of Paul?

is this the Dispensationalist two gospel theory?

 

[Mungo]

Paul uses many terms for the gospel he preaches:
the gospel of the grace of God
the gospel of God (Rom 1:1)
the gospel of his[God’s] Son (Rom 1:9)
the gospel (Rom 1:15)
the gospel of Christ (Rom 1:16)
my gospel (Rom 2:16)
the gospel of peace (Rom 10:15)
Christ’s gospel (2Cor 2:12)
Our gospel (2Cor 4:3)
the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ (2Thess 1:8)

Are these all different gospels? Obviously not for Paul says: “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” (Gal 1:6-8))

Yet, you claim that ‘the gospel of Christ’ is not the gospel that Christ preached.
You claim ‘the gospel of his [God]s Son’ is not the gospel that God’s Son preached.
You claim that ‘Christ’s gospel’ is not the gospel that Christ preached.

Paul tells us that there is only one gospel – the gospel of Christ (Gal 1:6-7), which Paul calls elsewhere ‘the gospel’ and ‘the gospel of God’

But Peter preached ‘the gospel’ (1Pet 4:6) and ‘the gospel of God’ (1Pet 4:17).

Were they different gospels? Did Paul say that peter was accursed for preaching a different gospel?
Did the Holy Spirit, the primary author of scripture, inspire Paul and Peter to use the same term for different gospels?

 

[H. Richard]

H Richard, can you clarify.

Are you saying that Jesus taught a different gospel to that of Paul?

is this the Dispensationalist two gospel theory?

According to the book of Hebrews one was fading away and another was taking it's place.

Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
NKJV

Heb 10:9-10
9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
NKJV

 

[H. Richard]

Paul uses many terms for the gospel he preaches:
the gospel of the grace of God
the gospel of God (Rom 1:1)
the gospel of his[God’s] Son (Rom 1:9)
the gospel (Rom 1:15)
the gospel of Christ (Rom 1:16)
my gospel (Rom 2:16)
the gospel of peace (Rom 10:15)
Christ’s gospel (2Cor 2:12)
Our gospel (2Cor 4:3)
the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ (2Thess 1:8)

Are these all different gospels? Obviously not for Paul says: “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” (Gal 1:6-8))

Yet, you claim that ‘the gospel of Christ’ is not the gospel that Christ preached.
You claim ‘the gospel of his [God]s Son’ is not the gospel that God’s Son preached.
You claim that ‘Christ’s gospel’ is not the gospel that Christ preached.

Paul tells us that there is only one gospel – the gospel of Christ (Gal 1:6-7), which Paul calls elsewhere ‘the gospel’ and ‘the gospel of God’

But Peter preached ‘the gospel’ (1Pet 4:6) and ‘the gospel of God’ (1Pet 4:17).

Were they different gospels? Did Paul say that peter was accursed for preaching a different gospel?
Did the Holy Spirit, the primary author of scripture, inspire Paul and Peter to use the same term for different gospels?

Good questions. Now find the answers for yourself because you will never accept mine. I will ask you this, show me where Jesus and the 12 says we are not under the Law of Moses? Then I will show you where Paul says we are not under that law.

Show me a place where the 12 gave up their Jewish practices of Temple worship.

 

[Mungo]

According to the book of Hebrews one was fading away and another was taking it's place.

Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
NKJV

Heb 10:9-10
9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
NKJV

You didn't answer my question.

It was a very simple one and only needed a Yes or No.

 

[Mungo]

Good questions. Now find the answers for yourself because you will never accept mine.

Try me.

If you cannot (or will not) present your answers then we may rightly assume that you have none.

 

[Mungo]

H. Richard,

While you are failing to answering my other questions, here are some more for you to fail to answer.

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God” (Mk 1:1)

Do you recognise that phrase ‘the gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God’ ?

Does it sound like ‘the gospel of Christ’ (Rom 1:1), and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ (2Thess 1:8), and the gospel of his[God’s] Son (Rom 1:9).

So is Mark giving us a different gospel to that of Paul?

Is the gospel Jesus Christ that Jesus teaches in Mark’s gospel the same as the gospel of Jesus Christ that Paul preaches?

 

[H. Richard]

H. Richard,

While you are failing to answering my other questions, here are some more for you to fail to answer.

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God” (Mk 1:1)

Do you recognise that phrase ‘the gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God’ ?

Does it sound like ‘the gospel of Christ’ (Rom 1:1), and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ (2Thess 1:8), and the gospel of his[God’s] Son (Rom 1:9).

So is Mark giving us a different gospel to that of Paul?

Is the gospel Jesus Christ that Jesus teaches in Mark’s gospel the same as the gospel of Jesus Christ that Paul preaches?

You still have not made a comment on the scriptures I gave you and yet you insist I comment on yours. I have already given you that Jesus by His own words, did not come to the Gentiles. He only came to the House of Israel but you ignore them.

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
-
Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

No where did Jesus or the 12 teach the gospel of grace as given to Paul. How could Jesus teach grace before He shed His blood on the cross. Would you care to talk about Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ) and Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)

I suppose your answer is a no and I will not press you to answer as you do me. If you can't handle these scriptures it is your problem. Not mine.

 

[Mungo]

You still have not made a comment on the scriptures I gave you and yet you insist I comment on yours.

It seems to be your habit to ignore responses that show the falsity of your position and then try and divert off to something else.

You made various claims in your OP and in following posts.

I showed the falsity of those claims and how they contradict scripture. You made no attempt to defend your claims but try and divert the discussion and then try to put the onus me to follow your diversion.

The burden of proof lies with you to defend your claims.

Please answer the points I made in posts #24 (and the follow up in post #29), Can I point out the obvious that my post #24 comes before your non-reply in post #26. I'm still waiting for a proper response.

saying "Good questions. Now find the answers for yourself because you will never accept mine" is not a proper response of my points. It is an admission that you cannot.

 

[FHII]

Try me.

If you cannot (or will not) present your answers then we may rightly assume that you have none.

Who is the "we"?

Fact is he (H. Richard) has answered these questions. He's been answering them for months now. Why don't you backtrack for understanding?

 

[Mungo]

Who is the "we"?

Fact is he (H. Richard) has answered these questions. He's been answering them for months now. Why don't you backtrack for understanding?

No he hasn't. If he had answered my points he could easily point to the relevant post where he addressed them. he didn't and couldn't

Can you?

 

[0bed]

There are many heresies and false religions, and their proponents claim to be Christians. We need to be on our guard and heed only the teaching of Christ and the disciples. Those who deviate from Christ's teaching are not Christians.

 

[FHII]

No he hasn't. If he had answered my points he could easily point to the relevant post where he addressed them. he didn't and couldn't

Can you?

Yes, in fact i can. 2 key points he made: he noted from Hebrews that the covenant was in transition. Second, on July 21st he brought up a very simple point. Jesus could not preach what he gave Paul to preach because he hadn't died and resurrected yet. The events had not yet taken place!

It was also necessary for Jesus to come to his own first. Well, when Jesus was still alive that was what he was doing.

Likewise the 12 couldn't preach the same gospel at that time either.

So no. Jesus and the 12 didn't preach the same gospel because they were still laying the foundation.

This ia what Richard had been saying all along.

 

[Mungo]

Yes, in fact i can. 2 key points he made: he noted from Hebrews that the covenant was in transition. Second, on July 21st he brought up a very simple point. Jesus could not preach what he gave Paul to preach because he hadn't died and resurrected yet. The events had not yet taken place!

It was also necessary for Jesus to come to his own first. Well, when Jesus was still alive that was what he was doing.

Likewise the 12 couldn't preach the same gospel at that time either.

So no. Jesus and the 12 didn't preach the same gospel because they were still laying the foundation.

This ia what Richard had been saying all along.

That doesn't address the points I made in posts #24 & #29

 

[FHII]

That doesn't address the points I made in posts #24 & #29

Yes.... It actually does.

 

[Mungo]

Yes.... It actually does.

No, It makes no attempt to, essentially or inessentially.

 

[FHII]

No, It makes no attempt to, essentially or inessentially.

I looked at your posts. You asked one question in about 5 different ways. They all had to do with whether Paul was preaching a different gospel than Jesus and the 12 did at the time before Jesus' death.

They were all the same question and IT was answered. Of course it was different because Paul preached what the life, death and resurrection meant and brought. Jesus couldn't preach it because he was doing it!


Its not that hard to understand.

Now if you want to talk about what peter and John preached later in their ministry, thats another issue.

 

[Mungo]

I pointed out that Paul, Peter and Mark used the same terminology in regard to the gospel that they or, in the case of Mark, Jesus preached. If they used the same terminology then they were referring to the same gospel. The Holy Spirit, who is the primary author of scripture did not create confusion by inspiring different human authors to use the same terminology for different things. Scripture is consistent.

Paul tells us that there is only one gospel – the gospel of Christ and that any other gospel is a perversion of the gospel of Christ. Anyone who preaches such another gospel is be accursed. (see Gal 1:6-8).

Neither you nor H Richard addressed this issue.

Neither Paul, not Peter, Nor Jesus, nor any other scripture writer declared there were two gospels.

Paul declared there was only one gospel. He gave no exceptions. The gospel was for Jews and Gentiles alike.

In Bethany, before the Last Supper, a woman anoints Jesus and Jesus says:
“Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.” (Mk 14:9).

What was “this gospel” that Jesus spoke of that was to be preached throughout the whole world?
Was it not the same gospel that Jesus had been teaching and Mark chronicling?
Was it not the same gospel that Jesus told the apostles to preach throughout the whole world, to all the nations (Gentiles)? (Mk 16:15, Mt 28:19-20).