A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[David in NJ]

Heb 2:16-17,

16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
​

Where any of us around when God created the world? No. So if Jesus somehow lived before he was born he is quite a bit different than the rest of us and Hebrews 2:17 is a lie. It can all be cleared up by ascertaining exactly who God was talking to in Genesis 1. I think I gave a good answer based on the scriptures apart from tradition, namely, God was speaking to the various spiritual beings He created before Genesis 1:1. They are angels, archangels, seraphim, etc.

Jesus preexisting plays right into the hands of the Greek philosophers who believed we all existed before actually being born. They, not God, came up with the "eternally existing soul" idea.

Anyway, good discussion. Thanks!

Your first sentence: "Where any of us around when God created the world?"

Elohim Word created the world and all things in it and beyond it.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning Elohim created...." = "the Word was God. He was God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made."

AFTER Genesis thru the Prophets comes the LORD/YHWH = "Immanuel, God with us."
John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of Grace and Truth."

AFTER this we read Hebrews - you must have ALL 3 to SEE

 

[Rich R]

Your first sentence: "Where any of us around when God created the world?"

Elohim Word created the world and all things in it and beyond it.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning Elohim created...." = "the Word was God. He was God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made."

AFTER Genesis thru the Prophets comes the LORD/YHWH = "Immanuel, God with us."
John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of Grace and Truth."

AFTER this we read Hebrews - you must have ALL 3 to SEE

I just thought of something while reading your post; why does John call Jesus "the Jesus" here but nowhere else?

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

"The Jesus" just sounds weird. On the other hand, if we take "logos" for what it really means, i.e., the plan, it makes perfect sense.

Also remember, God did not capitalize "word" to show us that it is a person. That was done by translators many hundreds of years after John wrote. They did it because they wanted to promote the trinity.

 

[DavidB]

1 Cor 11:3 is but one of many clear statements that God is NOT Christ or equal to his Father, period! And yet Trinitarians will even defy this verse and attempt to water it down or add in some weak excuse for what it really means, and sometimes dismiss it entirely. Trinitarians must be in deep mental and even spiritual denial when scripture clearly states Christ is not and never was God and never will be God. How can they deny what the word of God clearly states, to refuse to acknowledge it, is the height of self-pride and wicked thought. They are clinging to a theory of pagan nonsense this Trinity, that is founded on their grand ignorant inventions such as the incarnation (of who: the Father, the Son or the Spirit or all three...LOL), hypostatic union and the like. All made up as ridiculous kluge-jobs to fill in the large space or large gap in their brains and hearts from their lack of understanding about the nature of Christ and his Father, and then to end up saying its all a mystery folks, nothing to see here!. Who in their right mind would want to be a part of this ludicrous conversation and discussion is beyond me.

One reason I like 1 Corinthians 11:3 is not only is it simple and clear, it was written after Jesus’ ascension so their claim that he emptied himself of his “Godship” can’t be used. Of course no scripture said he emptied himself of being God. When Jesus said “The Father is greater than I am” at John 14:28 he was making another clear statement.

 

[APAK]

WOW - now i understand where you are from............"the power of it"

I 'see' you have no response. As I thought...

 

[David in NJ]

I just thought of something while reading your post; why does John call Jesus "the Jesus" here but nowhere else?

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

"The Jesus" just sounds weird. On the other hand, if we take "logos" for what it really means, i.e., the plan, it makes perfect sense.

Also remember, God did not capitalize "word" to show us that it is a person. That was done by translators many hundreds of years after John wrote. They did it because they wanted to promote the trinity.

How did John come to the Knowledge of Truth by which he was inspired to write the Gospel of John and the Epistles of John?
#1 John was a Jew
#2 as a Jew he was quite familiar with the Scripture
#3 Jesus called John to follow HIM
#4 John witnessed the Messiah first hand, no intermediaries.
#5 John witnessed His Death and Resurrection
#6 John witnessed HIS Ascension into the Clouds
#7 John was Baptized in the Holy Spirit and as such became the LORD's Witness to the TRUTH

Here is what we know: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.
John writes "in the beginning is the word" (should we capitalize 'word' here?) let's see why we should.
"the word was with God and the word was God." = How can a word be God? it cannot, we both know this.
Therefore, since John knew "the word was God" we know that just as we capitalize the true God we should also capitalize the "Word" since "HE "was with God from the beginning" = before man = and "the Word was God"
John continues to bring this forth = "All things were created by Him/the Word and nothing that was made was made without Him"
AGAIN, we see what John KNEW, that is the Word is a Person = HIM who created ALL things.
John again continues with this Person = "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" = SEE, the Word is a Person who created ALL things.
John continues further to identify the Word/Creator that became flesh = "the only begotten of the FATHER full of Grace and Truth."
Keep in mind John is a Jew who knew the 1st Commandment: "No other gods before ME".
John continues to EXPOUND even more who this Word/God/Person is = "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
But wait there is more
John continues "And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”

Now we know why the Word is capitalized and the Apostle John confirms 3 Individuals in One/Echad God/Elohim from the beginning = Genesis/Exodus
Elohim FATHER, Elohim SON Elohim Holy SPIRIT in Genesis and in the Gospel of John.

 

[David in NJ]

I 'see' you have no response. As I thought...

Your statement: "the power of it", denotes the need for understanding actually who the Holy Spirit is(HE is not a it).

 

[APAK]

Your statement: "the power of it", denotes the need for understanding actually who the Holy Spirit is(HE is not a it).

So now you want to switch from the subject of the logos/word to the Spirit of God, the Father.

Yes, his, our Father, has both the divine and holy Spirit as he also has the word, or his own word, and both are called 'it,' obviously Now one can use the word 'he' or him on one proviso. With the understanding that his Spirit (it) as his word/logos emanates from the Father, who is the 'he'..

So with this understanding we can say he created the world with his Spirit using his Word/logos, and both of these essential attributes are considered 'itIs)' and are a part of him or he, our Father. He is the only one doing all the work of creation and executing his plan...cool?!

 

[David in NJ]

So now you want to switch from the subject of the logos/word to the Spirit of God, the Father.

Yes, his, our Father, has both the divine and holy Spirit as he also has the word, or his own word, and both are called 'it,' obviously Now one can use the word 'he' or him on one proviso. With the understanding that his Spirit (it) as his word/logos emanates from the Father, who is the 'he'..

So with this understanding we can say he created the world with his Spirit using his Word/logos, and both of these essential attributes are considered 'itIs)' and are a part of him or he, our Father. He is the only one doing all the work of creation and executing his plan...cool?!

None of what you suggested is what the Apostle John wrote.
Neither did any of the Apostles write such things as you suggested.
Neither does the Torah or the Prophets of OT.

Without THREE you cannot SEE

 

[DavidB]

Your statement: "the power of it", denotes the need for understanding actually who the Holy Spirit is(HE is not a it).

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God”
Romans 8:16 KJV

 

[David in NJ]

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God”
Romans 8:16 KJV

"If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." John 14:15-18

WOW = 3x "Him", what a coincidence!!!

 

[APAK]

"If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." John 14:15-18

WOW = 3x "Him", what a coincidence!!!

Unfortunately this is another case of deception David, and you have been fooled as lots of other people - you are not alone. And you have fallen prey to the Trinitarian translators to conform to their fable of a trinity of the Three.

In John 14:16-17 as in John 1:3 and a few other places, the translators (modern ones) chose to translate the Greek genders of the 'Spirit,' and the 'word,' to the pronoun of 'he' in English. They should be both an 'it,' truly.

Several languages like French, Spanish, Greek and others gender-ize their nouns. In English we do not!! This is a very big deal because if we get it wrong in translation we twist scripture and mess it all up. This was done deliberately here for Trinity doctrine bias.

So when we translate words (nouns) for these languages into English we need to be extra careful.

Take the world la table/tableau in French. It has a female gender. In English we call it an 'it' for the table and not a 'she.'

Likewise the Spirit or helper is a neuter gender in Greek and we should translate it as 'it' and especially not as a 'he.' It has a neuter gender for crying out loud in the Greek language. And the same goes for the Greek transliterated word 'logos,' it is an 'it' and should never be called a 'he.' in English. Talk about bastardization...

I hope my point here lands on some part of your brain and then is clearly understood. And a light bulb is illuminated. Eureka!!

 

[David in NJ]

Unfortunately this is another case of deception David, and you have been fooled as lots of other people - you are not alone. And you have fallen prey to the Trinitarian translators to conform to their fable of a trinity of the Three.

In John 14:16-17 as in John 1:3 and a few other places, the translators (modern ones) chose to translate the Greek genders of the 'Spirit,' and the 'word,' to the pronoun of 'he' in English. They should be both an 'it,' truly.

Several languages like French, Spanish, Greek and others gender-ize their nouns. In English we do not!! This is a very big deal because if we get it wrong in translation we twist scripture and mess it all up. This was done deliberately here for Trinity doctrine bias.

So when we translate words (nouns) for these languages into English we need to be extra careful.

Take the world la table/tableau in French. It has a female gender. In English we call it an 'it' for the table and not a 'she.'

Likewise the Spirit or helper is a neuter gender in Greek and we should translate it as 'it' and especially not as a 'he.' It has a neuter gender for crying out loud in the Greek language. And the same goes for the Greek transliterated word 'logos,' it is an 'it' and should never be called a 'he.' in English. Talk about bastardization...

I hope my point here lands on some part of your brain and then is clearly understood. And a light bulb is illuminated. Eureka!!

EUREKA #1 This is hilariously funny because i know the Scripture that Speaks the Gospel in THREE MEN = Abraham Isaac Jacob
EUREKA #2 The FATHER is HE, the SON is HE and the HOLY SPIRIT is HE
EUREKA #3 When Christ Returns with HIS Resurrection all males and females become Sons of God = not one daughter of God in the Resurrection

EUREKA, 7+7+7 = 21 = 3

 

[APAK]

EUREKA #1 This is hilariously funny because i know the Scripture that Speaks the Gospel in THREE MEN = Abraham Isaac Jacob
EUREKA #2 The FATHER is HE, the SON is HE and the HOLY SPIRIT is HE
EUREKA #3 When Christ Returns with HIS Resurrection all males and females become Sons of God = not one daughter of God in the Resurrection

EUREKA, 7+7+7 = 21 = 3

Are you serious mate...on drugs or something?

 

[David in NJ]

Are you serious mate...on drugs or something?

Oh, i am definitely on Higher Ground............

 

[Keiw]

You are in a Great Dilemna.
According to you, there are TWO DIFFERENT Saviors.
That is not what the Scripture declares.

Echad ELOHIM = the TRUTH from Genesis

Who foretold this long ago?
Who announced it from ancient times?
Was it not I, the YHWH?
There is no other God but Me,
a righteous God and Savior;
there is none but Me.

Not one scripture declares "Jesus the master worker...."

 

[Keiw]

You are in a Great Dilemna.
According to you, there are TWO DIFFERENT Saviors.
That is not what the Scripture declares.

Echad ELOHIM = the TRUTH from Genesis

Who foretold this long ago?
Who announced it from ancient times?
Was it not I, the YHWH?
There is no other God but Me,
a righteous God and Savior;
there is none but Me.

Not one scripture declares "Jesus the master worker...."

Proverbs 8--0 doubt in all creation is the one sent by God to earth and was named Jesus as a mortal. None other than who God created all other things through can possibly be called Gods master worker. He tells all they must listen to him, God grew especially fond of him. 0 doubt. God tells all they must listen to Jesus. Healse mentions he was created at prov 8--There is no twisting of Coll 1:15--firstborn of all creation. Your religion has to twist it. all creation occurred in the beginning. Not at Jesus birth as a mortal.
There is no other God besides-YHWH(Jehovah) i showed you the error at John 1:1-2 Cor 4:4 proves its error. When Ho Theos and plain Theos are in the same paragraph--only Ho Theos is God. god for plain Theos. You wont believe facts over errors.

 

[Keiw]

Heb 2:16-17,

16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
​

Where any of us around when God created the world? No. So if Jesus somehow lived before he was born he is quite a bit different than the rest of us and Hebrews 2:17 is a lie. It can all be cleared up by ascertaining exactly who God was talking to in Genesis 1. I think I gave a good answer based on the scriptures apart from tradition, namely, God was speaking to the various spiritual beings He created before Genesis 1:1. They are angels, archangels, seraphim, etc.

Jesus preexisting plays right into the hands of the Greek philosophers who believed we all existed before actually being born. They, not God, came up with the "eternally existing soul" idea.

Anyway, good discussion. Thanks!

God created an angel being who became his master worker( one whom God created all other things through) of Prov 8. The one God sent and was named Jesus as a mortal. God( YHWH(Jehovah) and his master worker is the US. At Prov 8 the being speaking( not God) says we must listen to him, that God grew especially fond of him--its Jesus. Michael is the one God sent--He sent his best.

 

[Rich R]

God created an angel being who became his master worker( one whom God created all other things through) of Prov 8. The one God sent and was named Jesus as a mortal. God( YHWH(Jehovah) and his master worker is the US. At Prov 8 the being speaking( not God) says we must listen to him, that God grew especially fond of him--its Jesus. Michael is the one God sent--He sent his best.

So Jesus was not at all like the rest of us and Hebrews 2:16-17 should be removed from the scriptures?

It looks like you are following Greek philosophy by making wisdom (Priv 8) a person. Since the scriptures was not given to them but to the Jews, see how the Jews looked at wisdom. That will also offer a clue as to how the Jews looked at the "word" in John 1:1. Suffice it to say, to the Jews, neither "wisdom" nor the "word" were persons.

 

[David in NJ]

So Jesus was not at all like the rest of us and Hebrews 2:16-17 should be removed from the scriptures?

It looks like you are following Greek philosophy by making wisdom (Priv 8) a person. Since the scriptures was not given to them but to the Jews, see how the Jews looked at wisdom. That will also offer a clue as to how the Jews looked at the "word" in John 1:1. Suffice it to say, to the Jews, neither "wisdom" nor the "word" were persons.

If the "Word" was not a Person, then it could not become a Person......... simple logic.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:1-5

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. = Flesh and Blood PERSON

A FULL Person BEFORE HE came into the world and DURING when HE walked the earth and AFTER HE ascended to HIS Previous GLORY which HE had with the FATHER.

Eternal Elohim Word = Before - During - After = "the First and the Last"

 

[APAK]

Consider this for size: If my voice and expressions and thoughts and purpose/plans miraculously became and were infused into my Son's voice, into his expressions and into his thoughts and into his purpose that was all mine in the first place, then that would be quite alright with you then @David in NJ? My statement also is logical right? And 'the word' is still never a person David!!