A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[GRACE ambassador]

If the "Word" was not a Person, then it could not become a Person......... simple logic.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:1-5

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. = Flesh and Blood PERSON

A FULL Person BEFORE HE came into the world and DURING when HE walked the earth and AFTER HE ascended to HIS Previous GLORY which HE had with the FATHER.

Eternal Elohim Word = Before - During - After = "the First and the Last"

Amen! + 160 Scriptural Reasons JESUS CHRIST Is Almighty God! Amen?

 

[Rich R]

If the "Word" was not a Person, then it could not become a Person......... simple logic.

Water doesn't normally become wine either and yet it did. Better figure out what's going on. I wouldn't rely on Greek philosophy to do that. They believed in per-existence. See what the Jews though of per-existence. They correctly did not believe in it.

 

[APAK]

Amen! + 160 Scriptural Reasons JESUS CHRIST Is Almighty God! Amen?

Just to be brutally frank with you, I would not be so smug with your '160 scripture reasons list' that I can and I have in the past over time discounted as being erroneous. You are not doing yourself or anyone else a favor if you think you are being a guide to the truth by being a typical blind leader leading others down the same path.

 

[Rich R]

Amen! + 160 Scriptural Reasons JESUS CHRIST Is Almighty God! Amen?

Reason numbers 1, 2, and 3 do not understand an image of something. An image is just that, an image. It is not the thing itself. Look at your image in the mirror. Break the mirror and the image goes away. But you're still there. Caesar's image was on a coin, but the coin was not Caesar. We are also changed into the same image as Jesus (2 Cor 3:18). We're not God either.

Reason number 4 saying Jesus is God means we also should think we are God (Phil 2:5).

Reason 5 and 6 also ignore the meaning of "image."

Reason 7 when taken literately means Jesus IS the Father.

Reason 8 means we are also God (John 17:11 & 22)

Reason 9 means Naomi and Ruth were really one person (Ruth 4:16).

Reason 28 says God was in Himself? Christ is in us (Col 1:27), therefore we are all Christ who is supposedly God. So we're all God?

 

[David in NJ]

Water doesn't normally become wine either and yet it did. Better figure out what's going on. I wouldn't rely on Greek philosophy to do that. They believed in per-existence. See what the Jews though of per-existence. They correctly did not believe in it.

the Apostle John was a JEW who was relying on the JEWISH MESSIAH who purchased for His People with His Blood the Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT. The same Holy Spirit that hovered over the waters in Genesis and who RESTED upon the WORD in John ch1.
The same Holy Spirit who Authored the Scriptures and reveals the Word to His People.

the Greeks, like yourself, rely on man's intellect in a futile attempt to ascend unto higher understanding.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Do not allow yourself to perish with the Jews and with Greek wisdom.

 

[David in NJ]

Consider this for size: If my voice and expressions and thoughts and purpose/plans miraculously became and were infused into my Son's voice, into his expressions and into his thoughts and into his purpose that was all mine in the first place, then that would be quite alright with you then @David in NJ? My statement also is logical right? And 'the word' is still never a person David!!

Your explanation is both logical and realistic in a earthly composition.

Elohim is Eternal, has no Beginning and no End, consists of THREE Who are Echad Elohim.

Your(our) finite mind cannot know, nor perceive this. It is only know by and thru the Elohim Holy Spirit and the Elohim Word at the Call of Elohim Father.

You need 3 to SEE

 

[Pierac]

i know exactly why JESUS said: "to my God and your God" - right now you do not....

Can you answer to THIS = Isaiah ch45

Was it not I, the YAHWEH/LORD?
There is no other Elohim but Me,
a righteous El and Savior;
there is none but Me.
Turn to Me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth;
for I am El,
and there is no other.
Question #1 - Since there is no other True Elohim and Elohim says here YAHWEH is EL = to WHOM then, must you turn to that you may be saved???
Answer:
By Myself I have sworn;
truth has gone out from My mouth,
a word that will not be revoked:
Every knee will bow before Me, = at the Name of JESUS, of those in Heaven on earth and under the earth
every tongue will swear allegiance. = every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

When you are on you knees and face, prostrate before YAHshuah, you will be confessing to YAHWEH = JESUS

I imagine by now you may be arguing with me and saying something like this: Well, if Jesus is not God in human flesh what you say to the Scriptures that say only God can save? After all... like you said... God says, "I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no Savior besides me" (Isaiah 40 3:11). If Jesus is not God and there are two saviors! And this is something the Bible here clearly excludes.

Wherein lies the solution? Ah, let's now read this through our Hebrew eyes and see what a difference it makes. Remember that dictum the Jews had about the law of agency where "the agent is as the principal himself"? It applies right here.

Let's go back to Exodus 23. You remember that we used this chapter earlier to illustrate the Hebrew law of agency. We saw that the angel of the Lord acted in God's stead. What the angel did in said was really what God himself did and said, for "My name is in him" (v. 21). In verse 23 Jehovah explained, "For My angel will go before you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivities and the Jebusites; and I will completely destroy them." The angel was the instrument through whom God destroyed the enemies.

Now let's proceed on in the chapter. God says to the Israelites, "I will send my terror ahead of you… I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you. And I will send hornets ahead of you, that they may drive out the Hivities, the Canaanites, and the Hittites before you" (v. 27-28).

To our understanding this sounds as if the LORD himself is going to do the work. But when we come to verse 31: "I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you will drive them out before you." So God expects the Israelites to drive their enemies out. Is there a contradiction here? Will God Himself drive out their enemies or will the Israelites do it? We note the principle again and again. Got says He will act.... when in fact He is going to empower his angels and his people to do the work.

This kind of talk has a thorough Hebrew feel about it. Actions that are directly ascribed to God are in fact carried out by his commissioned agents. Take another instance: "in the LORD… he saved them by the hand of Jeroboam" (2 Kings 14:27).

Once again we observe the clear distinction between God who is the ultimate Author of deliverance and his appointed agent who in this case was King Jeroboam. Or take this verse: "therefore you did deliver them into the hands of the oppressors who oppressed them. But when they cry to You in the time of their distress, You did hear from heaven, and according to Your great compassion You did give them deliverers who delivered them from the hand of their it oppressors" (Nehemiah 9:27).
Graeser, the author of One God and One Lord, p.363. Writes:
God, Christ and others are referred to as "saviors," but that clearly does not make them identical. The term "Savior" is used of many people in the Bible. This is hard to see in the English versions because, when it is used of men, the translators almost always translated as "deliverer." This in and of itself shows that modern translators have a Trinitarian bias that was not in the original languages. The only reason to translate the same word as "Savior" when it applies to God or Christ, but as "deliverer" when it applies to men, is to make the terms seem unique to God and Jesus when in fact it is not. This is a good example of how the actual meaning of Scriptures can be obscured if the translators are not careful or if they are theologically biased.

Is often been argued that the very name Jesus, which means "Yahweh saves," prove Jesus is Jehovah because "he will save his people from their sins" (Matt 1:21). But the logic is not consistently applied because the O.T. name Joshua means "Yahweh saves." I have never yet heard someone who believes in the deity of Christ argue that Joshua was God in the flesh. We know that the O.T. Joshua was God appointed man to deliver Israel. As Joshua and Israel went forth in obedience to his word God save them. Just so, in the matter of our salvation, God sent forth his son into battle. Through Jesus God has saved us. This is why both God and Jesus are called Savior. But the Bible never loses sight of the fact that God the Father is the ultimate Author of our salvation through (dia) his son.

This same line of reasoning applies to the healing of the paralytic in Mark 2. This is one of the most commonly appealed to Scriptures that allegedly proves that Jesus must be God, because "only God can forgive sins" (v.7). When Jesus pronounced the man forgiven/healed, the Pharisees say that Jesus is "blaspheming" because he is claiming to be God. But a little careful attention to detail will show that Jesus is not claiming deity. He is rather claiming "authority." He says, "But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…" (v.10). The parallel account in Matthew's report is that once the people saw Jesus healed a paralytic, "they were filled with awe, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men" ( Matt 9:8). We note that Jesus is claiming to be "the Son of Man," that is, the human Messiah, with a God given right to pronounce forgiveness. Not too much later Jesus invested other men-his apostles-with the same authority to forgive sins: "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; he to retain the sins of any, they have been retained" (John 20:23). If only God can forgive sins, then God and Jesus and the apostles are all God! Besides, there is no teaching anywhere in the Bible that says only God can forgive. Even Christians are commanded to forgive each other sin (Eph. 4:32; Col. 3:13). The fact that the Pharisees say that only God can forgive sins does not make this an established Biblical doctrine. The Pharisees often had wrong doctrine and were often corrected by our Lord Jesus. This was one such occasion.

Those who believe that Jesus can only be our Savior if he is God sometimes appeal to the prophecy from Jeremiah 23: (In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely; and this is his name by which he will be called, ‘The LORD our righteousness’" (Jer. 23:6).

Does this not say that the coming Savior will be "The LORD our righteousness," that is, God himself? This is easily answered when we note that a few chapters later we have this prophecy in Jeremiah 33: "in those days Judah shall be saved in Jerusalem shall dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she shall be called: the LORD is our righteousness’ (v.16).

Here the city of Jerusalem is given the very same title as the coming redeemer earlier. I have never yet heard anyone argue that the city of Jerusalem must also be God himself because it bears the same title as Jehovah. Hebrew understanding is needed to avoid the confusion.

This is why it is fallacious to reason that because Jesus is called the "King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" (Rev. 19:16) he must necessarily be Almighty God Himself. The fact that Artaxerxes is called "king of kings" and that God himself calls Nebuchadnezzar "king of kings" does not put these men in the same league as Messiah Jesus, nor mean they have the same nature as him. The designation "king of kings" is obviously a very Hebrew way of speaking that has nothing to do with the equivalency of nature. The Hebrews could also speak of a "servant of servants," which simply means to the lowest of the low (Gen 9:25). In the book of Daniel God addresses Nebuchadnezzar: "You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength, and the glory" (Dan. 2:37).

Hope this helps...
Paul

 

[Rich R]

the Apostle John was a JEW who was relying on the JEWISH MESSIAH who purchased for His People with His Blood the Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT. The same Holy Spirit that hovered over the waters in Genesis and who RESTED upon the WORD in John ch1.
The same Holy Spirit who Authored the Scriptures and reveals the Word to His People.

the Greeks, like yourself, rely on man's intellect in a futile attempt to ascend unto higher understanding.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Do not allow yourself to perish with the Jews and with Greek wisdom.

Gosh, it took me many weeks to learn about the Greek vs. Hebrew view of personification. You seem to have done it in about 10 minutes. Or, did you do any research at all? I'm thinking that's the case. Assuming that to be true, why would I care at all that you compare my thought to the Greek thought?

 

[David in NJ]

I imagine by now you may be arguing with me and saying something like this: Well, if Jesus is not God in human flesh what you say to the Scriptures that say only God can save? After all... like you said... God says, "I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no Savior besides me" (Isaiah 40 3:11). If Jesus is not God and there are two saviors! And this is something the Bible here clearly excludes.

Wherein lies the solution? Ah, let's now read this through our Hebrew eyes and see what a difference it makes. Remember that dictum the Jews had about the law of agency where "the agent is as the principal himself"? It applies right here.

Let's go back to Exodus 23. You remember that we used this chapter earlier to illustrate the Hebrew law of agency. We saw that the angel of the Lord acted in God's stead. What the angel did in said was really what God himself did and said, for "My name is in him" (v. 21). In verse 23 Jehovah explained, "For My angel will go before you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivities and the Jebusites; and I will completely destroy them." The angel was the instrument through whom God destroyed the enemies.

Now let's proceed on in the chapter. God says to the Israelites, "I will send my terror ahead of you… I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you. And I will send hornets ahead of you, that they may drive out the Hivities, the Canaanites, and the Hittites before you" (v. 27-28).

To our understanding this sounds as if the LORD himself is going to do the work. But when we come to verse 31: "I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you will drive them out before you." So God expects the Israelites to drive their enemies out. Is there a contradiction here? Will God Himself drive out their enemies or will the Israelites do it? We note the principle again and again. Got says He will act.... when in fact He is going to empower his angels and his people to do the work.

This kind of talk has a thorough Hebrew feel about it. Actions that are directly ascribed to God are in fact carried out by his commissioned agents. Take another instance: "in the LORD… he saved them by the hand of Jeroboam" (2 Kings 14:27).

Once again we observe the clear distinction between God who is the ultimate Author of deliverance and his appointed agent who in this case was King Jeroboam. Or take this verse: "therefore you did deliver them into the hands of the oppressors who oppressed them. But when they cry to You in the time of their distress, You did hear from heaven, and according to Your great compassion You did give them deliverers who delivered them from the hand of their it oppressors" (Nehemiah 9:27).
Graeser, the author of One God and One Lord, p.363. Writes:
God, Christ and others are referred to as "saviors," but that clearly does not make them identical. The term "Savior" is used of many people in the Bible. This is hard to see in the English versions because, when it is used of men, the translators almost always translated as "deliverer." This in and of itself shows that modern translators have a Trinitarian bias that was not in the original languages. The only reason to translate the same word as "Savior" when it applies to God or Christ, but as "deliverer" when it applies to men, is to make the terms seem unique to God and Jesus when in fact it is not. This is a good example of how the actual meaning of Scriptures can be obscured if the translators are not careful or if they are theologically biased.

Is often been argued that the very name Jesus, which means "Yahweh saves," prove Jesus is Jehovah because "he will save his people from their sins" (Matt 1:21). But the logic is not consistently applied because the O.T. name Joshua means "Yahweh saves." I have never yet heard someone who believes in the deity of Christ argue that Joshua was God in the flesh. We know that the O.T. Joshua was God appointed man to deliver Israel. As Joshua and Israel went forth in obedience to his word God save them. Just so, in the matter of our salvation, God sent forth his son into battle. Through Jesus God has saved us. This is why both God and Jesus are called Savior. But the Bible never loses sight of the fact that God the Father is the ultimate Author of our salvation through (dia) his son.

This same line of reasoning applies to the healing of the paralytic in Mark 2. This is one of the most commonly appealed to Scriptures that allegedly proves that Jesus must be God, because "only God can forgive sins" (v.7). When Jesus pronounced the man forgiven/healed, the Pharisees say that Jesus is "blaspheming" because he is claiming to be God. But a little careful attention to detail will show that Jesus is not claiming deity. He is rather claiming "authority." He says, "But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…" (v.10). The parallel account in Matthew's report is that once the people saw Jesus healed a paralytic, "they were filled with awe, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men" ( Matt 9:8). We note that Jesus is claiming to be "the Son of Man," that is, the human Messiah, with a God given right to pronounce forgiveness. Not too much later Jesus invested other men-his apostles-with the same authority to forgive sins: "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; he to retain the sins of any, they have been retained" (John 20:23). If only God can forgive sins, then God and Jesus and the apostles are all God! Besides, there is no teaching anywhere in the Bible that says only God can forgive. Even Christians are commanded to forgive each other sin (Eph. 4:32; Col. 3:13). The fact that the Pharisees say that only God can forgive sins does not make this an established Biblical doctrine. The Pharisees often had wrong doctrine and were often corrected by our Lord Jesus. This was one such occasion.

Those who believe that Jesus can only be our Savior if he is God sometimes appeal to the prophecy from Jeremiah 23: (In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely; and this is his name by which he will be called, ‘The LORD our righteousness’" (Jer. 23:6).

Does this not say that the coming Savior will be "The LORD our righteousness," that is, God himself? This is easily answered when we note that a few chapters later we have this prophecy in Jeremiah 33: "in those days Judah shall be saved in Jerusalem shall dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she shall be called: the LORD is our righteousness’ (v.16).

Here the city of Jerusalem is given the very same title as the coming redeemer earlier. I have never yet heard anyone argue that the city of Jerusalem must also be God himself because it bears the same title as Jehovah. Hebrew understanding is needed to avoid the confusion.

This is why it is fallacious to reason that because Jesus is called the "King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" (Rev. 19:16) he must necessarily be Almighty God Himself. The fact that Artaxerxes is called "king of kings" and that God himself calls Nebuchadnezzar "king of kings" does not put these men in the same league as Messiah Jesus, nor mean they have the same nature as him. The designation "king of kings" is obviously a very Hebrew way of speaking that has nothing to do with the equivalency of nature. The Hebrews could also speak of a "servant of servants," which simply means to the lowest of the low (Gen 9:25). In the book of Daniel God addresses Nebuchadnezzar: "You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength, and the glory" (Dan. 2:37).

Hope this helps...
Paul

You need to first have a relationship with Elohim before you can discern/know the TRUTH of Elohim.

YHWH never prayed to HIMSELF but HE did pray to HIS FATHER and YHWH revealed HIMSELF to HIS PEOPLE.

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

You are currently in the camp of the Jews in the Wilderness.

 

[David in NJ]

Gosh, it took me many weeks to learn about the Greek vs. Hebrew view of personification. You seem to have done it in about 10 minutes. Or, did you do any research at all? I'm thinking that's the case. Assuming that to be true, why would I care at all that you compare my thought to the Greek thought?

Food for thought,
if not the Bread of Life
all is for naught

 

[Pierac]

Your condescending attitude . . . another word for arrogance, get's old fast. So if you find I don't reply, chalk it up to that.

Not everyone has a spirit, but everyone dies and everyone will stand before God in judgment. When you die a child of God, your spirit will leave your body. When you die not a child of God, your soul will leave your body.

So I write, Death is when the soul/spirit is separated from the body. And you mistake this to mean something else, and launch on your "grab your ankles" show, with fonts and colors and derision, and what a bunch of vanity!

So there it is. You misunderstood, and put yourself on display.

Much love!

Edit to add . . . I won't be responding after this.

Mark.... let go of your ankles before you post...

(Ecc 12:7) and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.

(Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Other verses are…

(Gen 2:7) The Spirit is the breath of life

(Job 7:21) "Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity?
For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

(Psa 104:29) You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. 30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.

Every lifeform has a spirit that comes from God... Silly Child!
Please don't respond like you posted... I don't have time for children like you
Paul

 

[Pierac]

You need to first have a relationship with Elohim before you can discern/know the TRUTH of Elohim.

YHWH never prayed to HIMSELF but HE did pray to HIS FATHER and YHWH revealed HIMSELF to HIS PEOPLE.

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

You are currently in the camp of the Jews in the Wilderness.

Have a relationship with Elohim? ARE you serious???

Do you even read the post here??? You use a Hebrew word.... and I'm somehow going to be impressed???

The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God." Take another instance. In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron. Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh." No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7). Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: “Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.

The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:

Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

SO what relationship with elohim do you have ... David
Paul

 

[David in NJ]

Have a relationship with Elohim? ARE you serious???

Do you even read the post here??? You use a Hebrew word.... and I'm somehow going to be impressed???

The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God." Take another instance. In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron. Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh." No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7). Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: “Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.

The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:

Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

SO relationship with elohim do you have ... David
Paul

This is AMAZING!!! Elohim FATHER Elohim SON Elohim HOLY SPIRIT are ONE(ECHAD) = HalleluYAH

Your getting close to the TRUTH, but just like the Jews, you are close but not in the DOOR.

 

[Pierac]

This is AMAZING!!! Elohim FATHER Elohim SON Elohim HOLY SPIRIT = HalleluYAH are ONE(ECHAD)

Your getting close to the TRUTH, but just like the Jews, you are close but not in the DOOR.

No.... your just running out of cool Hebrew words you think make your point!!!

Now bend over and grab your ankles.... time for another spiritual spanking!!!!

Echad (one)

It is customary for some Binitarians and most evangelical Trinitarians (especially Messianics) to propose that the Hebrew word for one, the numeral one (echad), is really "compound one." This is a clever device which confuses logical thought. Echad occurs some 960 times in the Hebrew Bible, and it is the numeral "one." It is a numeral adjective when it modifies a noun. "One day," "one person," etc. Echad is the ordinary cardinal number, "one." Eleven in Hebrew is ten and one. Abraham "was only one," said Ezekiel 33:24 (NASU), "only one man" (NIV).

Just as the famous Armstrongian phrase "uniplural" does not appear in the Webster's (thus it represents the DIY grammatical venture on which Worldwide theology was done in respect to defining God), "compound one" as a definition of echad is also not recognized in standard texts describing the grammar of the Hebrew language. It is an invented grammatical category which confuses and divides.

The Hebrew word for one operates as does the word "one" in English. You can have one thing, one person. And of course the noun modified by echad may be collective, one family, one people, one flesh, as a single unit composed of two - Adam and Eve, in that case. But to say that "one" carries the meaning of "compound one" is misleading in the extreme. The basic meaning of echad given by the lexicons is "one single," even the indefinite article "a." Sometimes "the only one," or even "unique" is the proper translation of echad.

Suppose now we say that "one" implies more than one. We could prove our point like this: In the phrase "one tripod," is it not obvious that one really implies three? Does not one dozen mean that one is really 12? Or one million? Is one equivalent to a million? Does this not suggest the plurality of "one"? What about "one quartet" or "one duplex"? To carry this madness to an extreme, we could argue that in the phrase "one zebra," the word one really means "black and white."

What is happening here? We are being asked to believe that in the phrase "the Lord our God is one Lord," that "one" is "compound." That "Lord" is more than one Lord, perhaps two or perhaps three. We are being lured into a complete falsehood that "one" implies plurality. We are asked to believe this on the basis of a tiny fraction of the appearances of echad when it modifies a compound noun (the vast majority of the occurrences of echad when it does not modify a compound noun are left unmentioned). Even when "one" modifies a compound noun - one family, one cluster - the word "one" retains its meaning as "one single." There is no such thing as "compound one" as a definition of echad.

This procedure is to confuse the numeral adjective "one" with the noun it modifies. It is to "bleed" the meaning of a compound noun back into the numeral. This will take the unwary by surprise. Thus "one flesh" is supposed to mean that one can mean more than one. The point, obviously, is that "flesh" as a combination of Adam and Eve does have a collective, family sense. But one is still one: "one flesh and not two fleshes." "One cluster (singular) of grapes" does not in any way illustrate a plural meaning for the word "one." "Cluster" has indeed a collective, plural sense. But one is still one: "one cluster" and not "two clusters." Just imagine if at the check-out the clerk announces that your one dollar purchase is really "compound one." You could become bankrupt.

So then, Yahweh, the personal name of the One God, occurs some 6,800 times. In no case does it have a plural verb, or adjective. And never is a plural pronoun put in its place. Pronouns are most useful grammatical markers, since they tell us about the nouns they stand for. The very fact that the God who is Yahweh speaks of Himself as "I" and "Me" and is referred to as "You" (singular) and "He" and "Him" thousands upon thousands of times should convince all Bible readers of the singularity of God. The fact that God further speaks of Himself in every exclusive fashion known to language -"by myself," "all alone" etc., - only adds to this proof. "There is none besides Me," "none before Me" and "none after Me." "I alone am Elohim, and Yahweh." "I created the heavens and the earth by Myself; none was with Me."

A Sample of the Use of echad (one)

Genesis 42:13: "Joseph's brothers said, 'We are 12 brothers, sons of one (echad) man, in the land of Canaan. The youngest is this day with our father and one (echad) is not.'" Verse 16: "Send one (echad) of you." Verse 19: "Let one (echad) of your brothers." Verse 27: "One (echad) of them opened his sack." Verse 32: "One (echad) is not." Verse 33: "One (echad) of your brothers." There are well over 900 other examples in the OT.

David.... the spirit of the Lord is upon me.... thus I make you look stupid at ever post! You can let go of your ankles now!
Paul

 

[David in NJ]

No.... your just running out of cool Hebrew words you think make your point!!!

Now bend over and grab your ankles.... time for another spiritual spanking!!!!

Echad (one)

It is customary for some Binitarians and most evangelical Trinitarians (especially Messianics) to propose that the Hebrew word for one, the numeral one (echad), is really "compound one." This is a clever device which confuses logical thought. Echad occurs some 960 times in the Hebrew Bible, and it is the numeral "one." It is a numeral adjective when it modifies a noun. "One day," "one person," etc. Echad is the ordinary cardinal number, "one." Eleven in Hebrew is ten and one. Abraham "was only one," said Ezekiel 33:24 (NASU), "only one man" (NIV).

Just as the famous Armstrongian phrase "uniplural" does not appear in the Webster's (thus it represents the DIY grammatical venture on which Worldwide theology was done in respect to defining God), "compound one" as a definition of echad is also not recognized in standard texts describing the grammar of the Hebrew language. It is an invented grammatical category which confuses and divides.

The Hebrew word for one operates as does the word "one" in English. You can have one thing, one person. And of course the noun modified by echad may be collective, one family, one people, one flesh, as a single unit composed of two - Adam and Eve, in that case. But to say that "one" carries the meaning of "compound one" is misleading in the extreme. The basic meaning of echad given by the lexicons is "one single," even the indefinite article "a." Sometimes "the only one," or even "unique" is the proper translation of echad.

Suppose now we say that "one" implies more than one. We could prove our point like this: In the phrase "one tripod," is it not obvious that one really implies three? Does not one dozen mean that one is really 12? Or one million? Is one equivalent to a million? Does this not suggest the plurality of "one"? What about "one quartet" or "one duplex"? To carry this madness to an extreme, we could argue that in the phrase "one zebra," the word one really means "black and white."

What is happening here? We are being asked to believe that in the phrase "the Lord our God is one Lord," that "one" is "compound." That "Lord" is more than one Lord, perhaps two or perhaps three. We are being lured into a complete falsehood that "one" implies plurality. We are asked to believe this on the basis of a tiny fraction of the appearances of echad when it modifies a compound noun (the vast majority of the occurrences of echad when it does not modify a compound noun are left unmentioned). Even when "one" modifies a compound noun - one family, one cluster - the word "one" retains its meaning as "one single." There is no such thing as "compound one" as a definition of echad.

This procedure is to confuse the numeral adjective "one" with the noun it modifies. It is to "bleed" the meaning of a compound noun back into the numeral. This will take the unwary by surprise. Thus "one flesh" is supposed to mean that one can mean more than one. The point, obviously, is that "flesh" as a combination of Adam and Eve does have a collective, family sense. But one is still one: "one flesh and not two fleshes." "One cluster (singular) of grapes" does not in any way illustrate a plural meaning for the word "one." "Cluster" has indeed a collective, plural sense. But one is still one: "one cluster" and not "two clusters." Just imagine if at the check-out the clerk announces that your one dollar purchase is really "compound one." You could become bankrupt.

So then, Yahweh, the personal name of the One God, occurs some 6,800 times. In no case does it have a plural verb, or adjective. And never is a plural pronoun put in its place. Pronouns are most useful grammatical markers, since they tell us about the nouns they stand for. The very fact that the God who is Yahweh speaks of Himself as "I" and "Me" and is referred to as "You" (singular) and "He" and "Him" thousands upon thousands of times should convince all Bible readers of the singularity of God. The fact that God further speaks of Himself in every exclusive fashion known to language -"by myself," "all alone" etc., - only adds to this proof. "There is none besides Me," "none before Me" and "none after Me." "I alone am Elohim, and Yahweh." "I created the heavens and the earth by Myself; none was with Me."

A Sample of the Use of echad (one)

Genesis 42:13: "Joseph's brothers said, 'We are 12 brothers, sons of one (echad) man, in the land of Canaan. The youngest is this day with our father and one (echad) is not.'" Verse 16: "Send one (echad) of you." Verse 19: "Let one (echad) of your brothers." Verse 27: "One (echad) of them opened his sack." Verse 32: "One (echad) is not." Verse 33: "One (echad) of your brothers." There are well over 900 other examples in the OT.

David.... the spirit of the Lord is upon me.... thus I make you look stupid at ever post! You can let go of your ankles now!
Paul

There is only ONE/ECHAD Elohim and His NAME is Elohim Abraham Elohim Isaac Elohim Jacob = Exodus 3:15

Echad Elohim said: "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness." Genesis 1:26

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being examined today about a kind service to a man who was lame, to determine how he was healed, then let this be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel:
It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. This Jesus is
‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:8-12

Without THREE you cannot be saved.
the Jews are in darkness and their sins remain because the believe in a single god.

 

[Pierac]

There is only ONE/ECHAD Elohim and His NAME is Elohim Abraham Elohim Isaac Elohim Jacob = Exodus 3:15

Echad Elohim said: "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness." Genesis 1:26

Without THREE you cannot be saved.
the Jews are in darkness and their sins remain because the believe in a single god.

Ok David, I'm waiting on some scripture.... BTY... I'm Italian not Jewish.... Much like your silly Pope!
Show me how it takes Three to be Saved.... please use scripture... not your church bulletin
This should would fun if it were not so sad!

Paul

 

[David in NJ]

Ok David, I'm waiting on some scripture.... BTY... I'm Italian not Jewish.... Much like your silly Pope!
Show me how it takes Three to be Saved.... please use scripture... not your church bulletin
This should would fun if it were not so sad!

Paul

The BIG THREE

Echad Elohim said: "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness." 3x = Genesis 1:26

BIG THREE = "Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being examined today about a kind service to a man who was lame, to determine how he was healed, then let this be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel:
It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. This Jesus is
‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:8-12

Then the Jews (and jw's) surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
I and My Father are one(echad).”
John ch10

Without THREE you cannot SEE

 

[tigger 2]

Exodus 3:15 uses the Hebrew word elohe (instead of elohim). This is the "Hebrew possessive prepositional form of 'elohim' meaning 'God of'."

So, the honest translation of Exodus 3:15 (and the many other such uses of elohe) is "YHWH, the God of [elohe] your fathers - the God of [elohe] Abraham, the God of [elohe] Isaac, and the God of [elohe] Jacob...."

 

[Pierac]

There is only ONE/ECHAD Elohim and His NAME is Elohim Abraham Elohim Isaac Elohim Jacob = Exodus 3:15

Echad Elohim said: "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness." Genesis 1:26

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being examined today about a kind service to a man who was lame, to determine how he was healed, then let this be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel:
It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. This Jesus is
‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:8-12

Without THREE you cannot be saved.
the Jews are in darkness and their sins remain because the believe in a single god.

Now... Let's review your older post after my response... I wanted you to give an answer about the three needed to be saved... so i jumped to the point..

Now I just want to show you how you use scripture that disproves what you believe... You used Act 4:8-10

Act 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers and elders of the people, 9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by this name this man stands here before you in good health.

Here in Acts You have Jesus actually dead.... And God raising him from the dead! You can not be God and then have a God that needs raise you from the dead!

The Bible also states that only God has immortality. 1 Timothy 6:16:
"Who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, and whom no human being has seen or can see."
Now let’s take a look at another verse that speak of God raising Jesus. Acts 2:32 states: "God raised this Jesus"

Who raised this Jesus? GOD! Notice that it does not say "the Father," but "God." Unless we discard every known rule of language, we can see that Jesus is not included in the term God. Another point to be made is that God is alive and Jesus is dead. God is raising Jesus from the dead. As Timothy pointed out before, God is immortal, He cannot die. Jesus on the other hand is DEAD. If you believe Jesus to be God, then it is obvious that Jesus was never truly dead because he did in fact raise himself from the dead. Do you think that the Bible is wrong or that the creeds that were created by men that made Jesus God are wrong. Someone is wrong, the question is who, the writers of the Bible or the writers of your creeds?

So by posting Act 4:10... You contradicted your own beliefs in so many ways... First You showed that Jesus has a God that raised him from the dead... and god can not die! Second, God cannot die so if Jesus was God then no one died for your sins... you starting to see your problem???

Paul

 

[PinSeeker]

Show me how it takes Three to be Saved.... please use scripture...

So, I realize you are asking David for this scriptural evidence, but...

God the Father wills it:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, compassion on whom I will have compassion" ~ God the Father, through Moses, Exodus 33:19

"He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, compassion on whom I will have compassion'... So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." ~ God the Father, through Moses and Paul, and Paul himself, Romans 9:15,18​

God the Son accomplishes redemption with His sinless life and His work of redemption on the cross:

"It is finished." ~ Jesus, John 19:30

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin" ~ Hebrews 4:15

"...he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross... Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" ~ Philippians 2:8-11​

God the Holy Spirit works it in us and sustains us to the end:

"I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you... the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you" ~ John 14:16-26​

It takes all three Persons, the triune Jehovah, working in sovereign unity and perfection.

Grace and peace to you.