A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[tigger 2]

Let's examine the Apostle John's words "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1, in Greek "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος").

....

Only two senses for the word "god" exists, and the senses are either good or evil. There is no middle ground.

Of the over 1000 times that the Greek word θεὸς (Strong's 2316 - also Θεὸν - God, god) or it's inflections are used in the New Testament, only the good sense or the evil sense indicated above are represented, as shown in this concordance page blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g2316/nasb95/tr/0-1/, and I reviewed all the included verses to make certain - and θεὸς (God) is not used one time to indicate angels.

The good sense for the word θεὸς (God) applies to Jesus; therefore, John declares Jesus is YHWH God in John 1:1 for only God is good (Mark 4:18).

THE GREEK WORD THEOS (GOD) EXCLUSIVELY REFERS TO THE ONE TRUE GOD (DEUTERONOMY 6:4) IN THE GOOD SENSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, SO "IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD" (JOHN 1:1) REFERS TO JESUS AS THE ONE TRUE GOD.


This current post extends this prior post showing that the very moment the Apostle Thomas said "my God" (John 20:28) to Yeshua HaMashiyach, Thomas made clear that Jesus is El Elyon (God Most High), the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4), and the post truthfully exposes your delusional thoughts of Jesus not being God.

.......................................................

When an exhaustive examination by anyone of John's use of "God" (ho theos) and all uses of his constructions which are truly parallel to Jn 1:1c are completed, it is apparent that John's intention for John 1:1c is "And the word was a god."

Those who deny this have not done their Berean-like work of carefully and honestly studying this.

If you want to save a little time and effort (a lot of interlinear, NT grammar texts, and concordance use) you could carefully examine my personal study of John's intended meaning of Jn 1:1c. - Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity Or, Examining the Trinity or, the original and lengthiest Examining the Trinity: DEFinite John 1:1c or, the answer to the "Quality" interpretation of Jn 1:1c by some, Examining the Trinity: QUAL ("Qualitative" John 1:1c)

For a clear example where context and grammar unmistakably agree, see in the ancient Greek translation of the OT (3 Kings 18:27 in Septuagint, 1 Kings 18:27 in Hebrew text). Here in the Greek Septuagint theos without the definite article comes before its verb (exactly as in John 1:1c) and is translated as "he is a god."

Godly men and angels called gods:
Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God's angels as gods include:

1. Young's Analytical Concordance of the Bible, "Hints and Helps...," Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;
2. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew and Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;
3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;
4. Today's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;
5. Hastings' A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;
6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;
7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;
8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; & p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;
9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;
10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7, 1970 ed.;
11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;
12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;
13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;
14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press,1975;
15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);
16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);
17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (John 10:34-36);
18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);
19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).
20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.
21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.
22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.
23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.
24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.
25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.
26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.
27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.
(also John 10:34, 35 - CEV: TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV; David Guzik (John 10:34).

And, of course the highly respected and highly popular Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for "God"/"a god" about the same time the NT was written. - See the LOGOS study.

And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus; the writer of "The Epistle to Diognetus"; and even super-Trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for "a god." And, as we saw above, many respected NT scholars of this century agree. (For example, Ernst Haenchen tells us in his commentary on the Gospel of John:

"It was quite possible in Jewish and Christian monotheism to speak of divine beings that existed alongside and under God but were not identical with him. Phil 2:6-10 proves that. In that passage Paul depicts just such a divine being, who later became man in Jesus Christ". - John 1, translated by R. W. Funk, 1984, pp. 109, 110, Fortress Press.)

As for Thomas' statement see: Examining the Trinity: MYGOD

 

[David in NJ]

.......................................................

When an exhaustive examination by anyone of John's use of "God" (ho theos) and all uses of his constructions which are truly parallel to Jn 1:1c are completed, it is apparent that John's intention for John 1:1c is "And the word was a god."

Those who deny this have not done their Berean-like work of carefully and honestly studying this.

If you want to save a little time and effort (a lot of interlinear, NT grammar texts, and concordance use) you could carefully examine my personal study of John's intended meaning of Jn 1:1c. - Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity Or, Examining the Trinity or, the original and lengthiest Examining the Trinity: DEFinite John 1:1c or, the answer to the "Quality" interpretation of Jn 1:1c by some, Examining the Trinity: QUAL ("Qualitative" John 1:1c)

For a clear example where context and grammar unmistakably agree, see in the ancient Greek translation of the OT (3 Kings 18:27 in Septuagint, 1 Kings 18:27 in Hebrew text). Here in the Greek Septuagint theos without the definite article comes before its verb (exactly as in John 1:1c) and is translated as "he is a god."

Godly men and angels called gods:
Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God's angels as gods include:

1. Young's Analytical Concordance of the Bible, "Hints and Helps...," Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;
2. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew and Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;
3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;
4. Today's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;
5. Hastings' A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;
6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;
7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;
8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; & p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;
9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;
10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7, 1970 ed.;
11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;
12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;
13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;
14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press,1975;
15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);
16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);
17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (John 10:34-36);
18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);
19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).
20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.
21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.
22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.
23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.
24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.
25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.
26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.
27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.
(also John 10:34, 35 - CEV: TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV; David Guzik (John 10:34).

And, of course the highly respected and highly popular Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for "God"/"a god" about the same time the NT was written. - See the LOGOS study.

And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus; the writer of "The Epistle to Diognetus"; and even super-Trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for "a god." And, as we saw above, many respected NT scholars of this century agree. (For example, Ernst Haenchen tells us in his commentary on the Gospel of John:

"It was quite possible in Jewish and Christian monotheism to speak of divine beings that existed alongside and under God but were not identical with him. Phil 2:6-10 proves that. In that passage Paul depicts just such a divine being, who later became man in Jesus Christ". - John 1, translated by R. W. Funk, 1984, pp. 109, 110, Fortress Press.)

As for Thomas' statement see: Examining the Trinity: MYGOD

Completely false and a LIE.
Stop adding to God's words and stop lying.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

 

[tigger 2]

Thank you for your intelligent, informed reply. I respect those who honestly answer every aspect of another's post.

 

[Rich R]

this comes from a translation hundreds of years after Jesus. which way did Jesus say to write "theos"?
and thats the end of that argument

and now your basing facts on what John was thinking?

this is bad

It's ironic that John is the goto book for trinity. He stated why he wrote his Gospel, namely:

John 20:30-31,

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:​

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

Nothing there about trying to prove Jesus is God. What's so wrong about Jesus being the Christ, the son of God? Why the insistence that Jesus is God? I guess it's because of tradition. Always have to remember that for the vast majority of the last 2,000 years only the church had access to the scriptures. Less than 600 years ago John Tyndale was executed for translating the Bible into English. That was nice, but too late for 98% of Christians being led by tradition instead of the truth. Oh well, they're our brothers and sisters and we love them as God loves them.

 

[David in NJ]

Thank you for your intelligent, informed reply. I respect those who honestly answer every aspect of another's post.

i lose all respect for those who follow the twisting way of the Serpent in the Garden = "did God really say....."

You are seeking to undermine the words of the Holy Spirit who Authored the Scripture.

You exalt yourself above the Apostle John, who was YHWH'S Witness to the TRUTH = this comes not from YHWH.

 

[David in NJ]

It's ironic that John is the goto book for trinity. He stated why he wrote his Gospel, namely:

John 20:30-31,

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:​

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

Nothing there about trying to prove Jesus is God. What's so wrong about Jesus being the Christ, the son of God? Why the insistence that Jesus is God? I guess it's because of tradition. Always have to remember that for the vast majority of the last 2,000 years only the church had access to the scriptures. Less than 600 years ago John Tyndale was executed for translating the Bible into English. That was nice, but too late for 98% of Christians being led by tradition instead of the truth. Oh well, they're our brothers and sisters and we love them as God loves them.

Genesis and Exodus are the "go-to" Books on Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit

The Gospel of John is the CONFIRMATION of this TRUTH as is ACTS and REVELATION

This Statement is PURE TRUTH = without THREE you cannot SEE

i challenge you to disprove it from Scripture using the GOSPEL

 

[Kermos]

no i didnt change anything, thats what the bible says, remember the bible scripture i posted that said this verbaitum. its not like i am adding :

right into the middle of a Revelation passage, thats what desperate people would do. lucky for me i can post scripture without having to change them.

You most certainly do desperately try to change the Word of God such that "just as" becomes "and one and the same as" in John 17:21-22, so you are making yourself out to be greater than the Word of God because you replace the sayings of the Word of God by way of your hearts treasure.

Let's look at the grammar of John 17:21-22, but the phrase "just as" needs to be examined because you all have such a profound problem with it's linguistical implication. Here is the example:

"This thing has a color" just as "that thing has a color".

The "this thing" is not the "that thing".

Both the "this thing" and the "that thing" have a color.

Nonetheless, the "this thing" is not the "that thing".

With that fundamental grammar established, let's return to John 17:21-22.

Lord Jesus says "that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me" (John 17:21).

Jesus did not say "they also may be one with Us" - which is what unbelievers convey.

Lord Jesus continues "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one" (John 17:22).

Jesus distinguishes between two ones - to clarify - (1) His first mention of "one" in the verse being about the children of God with "they may be one", but (2) His second mention of "one" in the verse being God.

Jesus includes Himself as being God because He says "We are one".

We just covered fundamental grammar, and more importantly we covered Spiritual Truth (John 14:6).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

You disbelieve the Word of God because, as shown above, in your heart you wickedly add to and/or subtract from the Word of God as recorded in John 17:21-22.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Rich R]

Genesis and Exodus are the "go-to" Books on Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit

The Gospel of John is the CONFIRMATION of this TRUTH as is ACTS and REVELATION

This Statement is PURE TRUTH = without THREE you cannot SEE

i challenge you to disprove it from Scripture using the GOSPEL

Well, I've given many verses that call the trinity into question, but I'll try to summarize for you.

Verses that say Jesus had a God: (How can Jesus “be God” and “have a God” at the same time?)

John 20:17,

Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. (Jesus and us share the same God).​

Rom 15:6,

that with one accord ye may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

2 Cor 1:3,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;​

2 Cor 11:31.

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.​

Eph 1:17,

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:​

1 Pet 1:3,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,​

Rev 1:6 (ERV),

and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his (Jesus) God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.​

Rev 3:12,

He that overcometh, I (Jesus) will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.​

Verses that clearly state Jesus is God or a god-man:

????????? MIA!

Verses that clearly state Jesus is a man:

Rom 5:15,

But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.​

Acts 2:22,

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:​

Acts 17:31,

Because he (God) hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man (Jesus) whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

1 Tim 2:5,

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

John 4:29,

Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?​

(Israel was looking for a man to redeem them. Nowhere is there a hint they were looking for a god-man.)

John 8:40,

But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.​

Verses that say God is NOT a man:

Hos 11:9,

I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I [am] God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.​

Num 23:19,

God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?​

(God is not a man. Jesus is a man. In any normal usage of words, this precludes Jesus and God from being the same entity. It requires extreme twisting of words and concepts found outside of scripture to say otherwise. Indeed, it requires the complete abandonment of the normal usage of language which makes communication impossible)

Verses that say Jesus was tempted just like us: (God can not be tempted, James 1:13)

Matt 4:1,

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.​

Heb 2:18,

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.​

Heb 4:15,

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.​

NOTE: When tempted, do you have a sense of being a god-man? Of course not! Then, being tempted just like us, neither did Jesus. Otherwise, his temptation would be nothing at all like our temptation. Temptation wouldn’t mean a thing to a god or a god-man.

Heb 5:2,

Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.​

While Jesus, being like us, could be compassed with infinity, I can’t imagine God being compassed with infirmity. I can’t imagine it simply because the Bible never makes such an outlandish claim!

Verses that say Jesus had a will distinctly different from God’s will: (God does NOT have a split personality)

Luke 22:42,

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.​

John 5:30,

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.​

John 6:38,
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Miscellaneous Verses:

Luke 2:52,

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.​

God increases in wisdom and stature? Jesus increased in favor with God?.

Luke 18:19,

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God.​

So, is God good or not?

1 Cor 11:3,

​

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.​

One part of God is the head of another?

John 14:28,

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.​

One part of God is greater than another?

hn 7:16,

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.​

God has two doctrines?

Matt 28:18,

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.​

Someone GAVE God His power? I wonder who.

Matt 24:36,

But of that day (the return) and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.​

Even if Jesus was the so-called “God the Son” (which he isn’t), he would not know something that only the Father knows. How does that make them “equal?” It doesn’t!

John 8:28,

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.​

One part of God taught another part? Don’t they all know everything?

Rev 1:1,

This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which - God gave Him to show - His servants what must - soon come to pass. - He made it known by sending His - angel to His servant John,​

One part of God had to show something to another part?

Luke 2:52,

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.​

God grew in favor with Himself?

Acts 2:36,

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.​

God made Himself both Lord and Christ?

Heb 2:9,

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.​

God is lower than the angels?

Matt 1:1,

The book of the generation (birth) of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.​

God had a beginning? God is the son of David and Abraham?

Acts 7:37,​

This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

Israel were people, not gods or god-men

Seed of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc - all HUMAN (seed as in Genesis 1)

One final thought: While Jesus is called the son of God some 50 times in the Bible, he is nowhere called God the Son.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.​

This, perhaps more than any other, ought to end the debate. Even if Jesus were God the Son (which title is found not once in the scriptures), he couldn’t be God, because only the father (which title actually does appear in the scriptures) is God. God is our Father. Jesus is our Lord. No word acrobatics required!

 

[David in NJ]

Well, I've given many verses that call the trinity into question, but I'll try to summarize for you.

Verses that say Jesus had a God: (How can Jesus “be God” and “have a God” at the same time?)

John 20:17,

Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. (Jesus and us share the same God).​

Rom 15:6,

that with one accord ye may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

2 Cor 1:3,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;​

2 Cor 11:31.

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.​

Eph 1:17,

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:​

1 Pet 1:3,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,​

Rev 1:6 (ERV),

and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his (Jesus) God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.​

Rev 3:12,

He that overcometh, I (Jesus) will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.​

Verses that clearly state Jesus is God or a god-man:

????????? MIA!

Verses that clearly state Jesus is a man:

Rom 5:15,

But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.​

Acts 2:22,

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:​

Acts 17:31,

Because he (God) hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man (Jesus) whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

1 Tim 2:5,

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

John 4:29,

Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?​

(Israel was looking for a man to redeem them. Nowhere is there a hint they were looking for a god-man.)

John 8:40,

But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.​

Verses that say God is NOT a man:

Hos 11:9,

I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I [am] God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.​

Num 23:19,

God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?​

(God is not a man. Jesus is a man. In any normal usage of words, this precludes Jesus and God from being the same entity. It requires extreme twisting of words and concepts found outside of scripture to say otherwise. Indeed, it requires the complete abandonment of the normal usage of language which makes communication impossible)

Verses that say Jesus was tempted just like us: (God can not be tempted, James 1:13)

Matt 4:1,

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.​

Heb 2:18,

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.​

Heb 4:15,

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.​

NOTE: When tempted, do you have a sense of being a god-man? Of course not! Then, being tempted just like us, neither did Jesus. Otherwise, his temptation would be nothing at all like our temptation. Temptation wouldn’t mean a thing to a god or a god-man.

Heb 5:2,

Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.​

While Jesus, being like us, could be compassed with infinity, I can’t imagine God being compassed with infirmity. I can’t imagine it simply because the Bible never makes such an outlandish claim!

Verses that say Jesus had a will distinctly different from God’s will: (God does NOT have a split personality)

Luke 22:42,

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.​

John 5:30,

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.​

John 6:38,
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Miscellaneous Verses:

Luke 2:52,

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.​

God increases in wisdom and stature? Jesus increased in favor with God?.

Luke 18:19,

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God.​

So, is God good or not?

1 Cor 11:3,

​

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.​

One part of God is the head of another?

John 14:28,

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.​

One part of God is greater than another?

hn 7:16,

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.​

God has two doctrines?

Matt 28:18,

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.​

Someone GAVE God His power? I wonder who.

Matt 24:36,

But of that day (the return) and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.​

Even if Jesus was the so-called “God the Son” (which he isn’t), he would not know something that only the Father knows. How does that make them “equal?” It doesn’t!

John 8:28,

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.​

One part of God taught another part? Don’t they all know everything?

Rev 1:1,

This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which - God gave Him to show - His servants what must - soon come to pass. - He made it known by sending His - angel to His servant John,​

One part of God had to show something to another part?

Not one of theses verses deny or disprove Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit.
Remember that JESUS was the Incarnation of Elohim = Immanuel = God with us.
Keep at the forefront of your mind that Elohim Word/Son emptied Himself and became a man, therefore you have a Dual Perspective that is Active at the same time and seemingly contradicts one another.

Remember that the word used in the NT for 'God' is not Hebrew which is the Authoritative Language for the Foundation of Truth beginning in Genesis.
The REASON for this has to do with OT PROPHECY = It was PLANNED by Elohim and came to FRUITION/FULFILLMENT.

JESUS did not come to destroy but to Fulfill.

Now let's get back to the challenge = without THREE you cannot SEE = use the Gospel to show that only a single God saves as opposed to a Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit that SAVES us.

Bring forth the scripture where JESUS prays to YHWH = where JESUS prays to LORD.

Question: Who was the WORD that was with God and was God in the Beginning = Genesis

 

[tigger 2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES TO THE TRINITY DOCTRINE


"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (underlined emphasis added by me.)

………………………………..


Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
....................................................
"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
........................................................

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

………………………………....

Challenges to trinity hypothesis from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly, visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
………………………………............

(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(( Notice how the 'Christian' God is described by Christendom itself in the creeds of Christendom ['three']! Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly and frequently described with the word “one” or its equivalent - “alone,” “only,” etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.))
……………………………….............

(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ” or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,” or “YHWH is the Firstborn,” or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),” or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH” (the only God according to scripture).

……………………………….................

Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God" many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God" (equal to those which declare "God is the Father" – John 17:1, 3; Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; Phil. 2:11; Col. 3:17; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; 2 John 3; Jude 1; etc.)

and,
………………………………....................

(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
......................................................................

(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
………………………………...................

(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…”

……………………………….................

(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

………………………………...............

Challenge from creation itself:

Ro. 1:20, NASB - "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

(I) Please show where in nature mankind would clearly see the three-in-oneness (or just threeness) of God from the beginning. (This would have to be something as clear and important as the single sun in the sky which has been recognized to support life from the beginning. Or the man made in God's image, was made with a single personality, a single body, a single head, a single heart.)

I believe any objective observer would admit that the answers to these simple scriptural challenges (A-H above) should be abundantly, clearly, indisputably available if the trinity (or ‘Jesus is God’) worshipers are correct.

To look for rare instances of unclear, disputed scriptures which have to be interpreted to fit a trinitarian concept (developed after the death of the last Apostle and the completion of Scripture) and convince yourself that they are "proofs" is a tragic error.

God has always existed as God and, therefore, His people should have always known who He was and worshiped him in truth.

To believe that God withheld this information from his people (or made it something to be interpreted from unclear, incomplete references) from the beginning (and throughout all Scriptures) is a tragic error.

If any others (other than the Father, YHWH) are truly God with him, It would be repeatedly, clearly emphasized throughout the Bible (as Jehovah, the Father, is).

 

[Kermos]

thats great, i will be happy to take on those bad interpretations as well. but first, lets go back to that Mat 22 passage that you ignored. did you have a response on that one or you just gonna bury your head in the sand and make believe it does not exist?

Fools are so very linguistically challenged, for example, you wrote "lets go back to that Mat 22 passage that you ignored" yet the very post to which you replied addresses your deception about Matthew chapter 22 in straight linguistics!

Lord Jesus addresses people like you who hold fast to their evil thoughts that Jesus is not God.

Such as your denial of "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) which leads to your applicability to "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

And such as "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God" (Matthew 22:37).

 

[DavidB]

FAIR enough - Agree

Let us compare some words of YHWH = Isaiah 45 to JESUS in John, Hebrews and Philippians

I am the Yahweh, and there is no other;
There is no Elohim besides Me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other;
I form the light and create darkness, "in Him was light and the light was the light of men." = John 1:4

And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me. “Look to Me, and be saved, = looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith, who for the joy that
was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down
at the Right Hand of the FATHER. - Hebrews 12:2

For I am God, and there is no other.
I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow, = that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those
on earth and under the earth
Every tongue shall take an oath. = and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So finally you correctly quote Philippians 2:11 by not using “LORD.” Yet you so freely accuse others of lying.

 

[DavidB]

Completely false and a LIE.
Stop adding to God's words and stop lying.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Is the Tetragrammaton “flawless?” Do you use a Bible that replaced it with Adonai or Kyrios? You really should stop slinging around your insulting accusations. Hypocrisy

Thank you for your intelligent, informed reply. I respect those who honestly answer every aspect of another's post.

I seriously doubt he is able to even comprehend your post let alone refute it. It’s so much easier to just say you are lying.

 

[David in NJ]

So finally you correctly quote Philippians 2:11 by not using “LORD.” Yet you so freely accuse others of lying.

Anyone who says "the Word was a god" is speaking a lie whether they know it or not.
God knows our hearts and if you have been deceived into believing "the Word was a god" then you need to turn to the LORD Jesus Christ so that you can be saved = 1st Commandment "there shall be no god before ME." = Isaiah ch45

YHWH has hidden Himself in Scripture and in plain sight.
Steps to SEEING:
1 faith in the Word = "it is written" = "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God" = 3x
2 faith in hearing the Word = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness." = 3x
3 faith in seeing the Word = "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us = Immanuel, God with us."
4 faith to trust the Word = "Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves ME." = John 14:21
5 faith to love the Word = "The one who loves ME will be loved by my FATHER," = John 14:21
6 REWARD for 1-5 = "and I too will love them and show MYSELF to them.” John 14:21

 

[David in NJ]

Is the Tetragrammaton “flawless?” Do you use a Bible that replaced it with Adonai or Kyrios? You really should stop slinging around your insulting accusations. Hypocrisy


I seriously doubt he is able to even comprehend your post let alone refute it. It’s so much easier to just say you are lying.

"And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."

 

[DavidB]

"And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."

“Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.”

 

[DavidB]

"And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."

Proverbs 18:6, 7
“The speech of the stupid one leads to quarrels, and his mouth invites a beating. The mouth of the stupid is his ruin, and his lips are a snare for his life.”

 

[keithr]

Let us compare some words of YHWH = Isaiah 45 to JESUS in John, Hebrews and Philippians

Jesus said, John 4:24 (KJV):

(24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.​

He did not say "God is three spirits".

 

[David in NJ]

Proverbs 18:6, 7
“The speech of the stupid one leads to quarrels, and his mouth invites a beating. The mouth of the stupid is his ruin, and his lips are a snare for his life.”

Stupid people corrupt the Truth and say "the Word was a god" = very stupid thing to do.

WISDOM = Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him

Stupid = Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

WARNING = I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.

REPENT and have Wisdom = "When I saw Him/LORD Jesus, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said,
“Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades."

Wisdom = "“This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no Elohim."

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus said, John 4:24 (KJV):

(24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.​

He did not say "God is three spirits".

YES HE did and keep at the forefront of your mind Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit are Echad.
1.) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

2.) "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = 3x

3.) And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

4.)When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you?
What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

5.) When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” = 3x

6.) Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. = 3x

7.) "“This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no Elohim." = 3x