A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

You are basing a doctrine on a few verses that could perhaps be taken in a Trinitarian way. But, they don't come out and say outright that Jesus is God, whereas I've shown a half dozen verses that specifically say he was a man (Acts 2:22 et. al.), whereas God is NOT a man (Hos 11:9, et. al.). I've also shown where Jesus had a God and a Father, the same as ours to be specific. I've shown where God knew things Jesus didn't know. I've shown that God and Jesus had two different wills. I've shown that Jesus was tempted, whereas God can not be tempted. I showed that Jesus increased in wisdom. I've shown that God is the head of Christ (aren't they supposed to be equal?). I've shown that Jesus will be subject to, or under, God. I've shown that God granted Jesus certain powers and privileges. I've shown where Jesus was made lower than the angels (Heb 2:9). I've shown that Jesus did not preach his own doctrine, but that of the Father.

But that's not all; you'd also have to explain why God talks and prayers to Himself so often. You'd also have to explain how a descendant (seed) of men (Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, David) could be God. All of these clear verses would have to be made to fit with the "I AM" argument, or the "I AM" could be made to fit with the many clear verses. We certainly can't throw any of them away.

I might suggest you look at other usages of "ego eimi." A blind man used the same phrase. Is the blind man therefore also God? There are many other usages of "ego eimi." Be careful about jumping to conclusions just because Jesus said he was before Abraham. We were also chosen before Abraham (Eph 1:4). Could it be that, as I've said many times, the logos of John 1:1 was a plan God had in His mind from the beginning? Part of that plan was of course Jesus Christ, but it also includes us. We, like Jesus, were certainly in God's mind, but none of us existed until we were born, including Jesus. There are plenty of verses that say Jesus was born.

So, the sayings of Jesus Christ are insufficient for you, Rich R. A believer in Jesus the Lord doesn't reject Jesus' sayings such as Jesus Christ saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

You, Rich R, are a dangerously unreliable source!

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Believing a lie such as "the Word was a god"

I don’t believe that.

I read a King James Bible.

 

[David in NJ]

The LORD( YHWH) said to my Lord( Jesus) proves your error. If Jesus were YHWH in the OT he would have gotten-LORD,( all capitols = YHWH) but he didnt. The Father is YHWH.

John chapter 5 complety exposes the lie(s) of jw's and others that claim Jesus is not YHWH.

 

[David in NJ]

I don’t believe that.

I read a King James Bible.

Good, i like the NKJV.

Genesis lays the Foundation of the Elohim FATHER Elohim SON Elohim HOLY SPIRIT.
Exodus confirms this and the Gospel Verifies this and Officially Signed with His Blood.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

The scriptures has no exhortation for us to acknowledge nor cause divisions over whether or not Jesus is God. Why do some men want to do so?

This is narrative, not doctrine!

The Truth always causes divisions. What good ambassadors of The Great
God and Saviour, JESUS CHRIST (Titus 2:13) would we be, if we did not
obey HIS Exhortation Through Paul, "to speak those things which become
Sound Doctrine" (Titus 2:1)?

Should we also keep silent/not cause division about the doctrine of The
Precious BLOOD Of God [JESUS] (Acts 20:28), for forgiveness of sin?

Just wondering IF we should Also be silent about The Sound Doctrine Of
The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God? = GRACE And Peace...

 

[ChristisGod]

I have a question I was hoping to maybe get some answers on from non-Trinitarians. Here goes: Using scriptural proofs, what would you say is the difference between serving the man Jesus Christ and serving God? I ask because this question presents itself in the following passage of scripture:

22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eye-service as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as unto the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. Serve Christ the Lord. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality. (Colossians 3:22-25)

The Trinitarian interprets "the Lord" here to be one and the same in every verse, referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, whom Paul's readers were being encouraged to serve with sincerity of heart, in fearing God. The non-Trinitarian, however, interprets verses 22-24 to be references to serving God, whereas the phrase in v.24 "Serve Christ the Lord" is a sudden transition to talking about serving the man Jesus Christ.

So how from scripture is serving the man Jesus Christ different from serving God?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.
Hidden In Him

It’s no different since Jesus is fully God and fully man. He is permanently human since the Incarnation while remaining fully God just like the Father is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.

 

[ChristisGod]

But you cannot get your head around this. The Angel of the LORD was none other than the pre-incarnate Christ. He said in this passage that His name was " I AM". But Jesus of Nazareth also told the Jews that He was "I AM" (long before Abraham). So instead of believing that Jesus is God, you wish to play games with Scripture. A very dangerous activity.

Amen hence a Christophany

 

[keithr]

i never said JESUS did not die = this is utter foolishness along with "the Word was a god"

You said Jesus was God, and God cannot die, therefore you cannot believe that Jesus died. Believing that Jesus is God only leads to confusion, because it is not in harmony with the Scriptures.

 

[keithr]

Denying the Truth is not "properly handling the Word of Truth"

Read John chapter 5 today and see if you can hear His Voice, Today.

Warning: a hard heart will prevent a man from seeing the Light of Day

Indeed, read John 5! Remove the Trinity tinted spectacles and see if you can spot the real truth!

John 5:19-29 (WEB):

(19) Jesus therefore answered them, “Most certainly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
(20) For the Father has affection for the Son, and shows him all things that he himself does. He will show him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
(21) For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he desires.
(22) For the Father judges no one, but he has given all judgment to the Son,
(23) that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn’t honor the Son doesn’t honor the Father who sent him.
(24) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
(25) Most certainly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God’s voice; and those who hear will live.
(26) For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.
(27) He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
(28) Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
(29) and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.​

 

[David in NJ]

You said Jesus was God, and God cannot die, therefore you cannot believe that Jesus died. Believing that Jesus is God only leads to confusion, because it is not in harmony with the Scriptures.

Good Morning keithr,
I never said Jesus, in His body of flesh, could not die. Jesus died on the Cross.

Only His physical body tasted death for everyone.

For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.
But one testified in a certain place, saying:
“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And set him over the works of Your hands.
You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels,
for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor,
that He, by the grace of God,
might taste death for everyone.
Hebrews 2:5-9

 

[David in NJ]

Indeed, read John 5! Remove the Trinity tinted spectacles and see if you can spot the real truth!

John 5:19-29 (WEB):

(19) Jesus therefore answered them, “Most certainly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
(20) For the Father has affection for the Son, and shows him all things that he himself does. He will show him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
(21) For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he desires.
(22) For the Father judges no one, but he has given all judgment to the Son,
(23) that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn’t honor the Son doesn’t honor the Father who sent him.
(24) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
(25) Most certainly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God’s voice; and those who hear will live.
(26) For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.
(27) He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
(28) Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
(29) and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.​

Dear keithr, these all confirm and underscore Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit.

(24) “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
(25) Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
(26) For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
(27) and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

Indeed, read John 5! Remove the Trinity tinted spectacles and see if you can spot the real truth!

John 5:19-29 (WEB):

(19) Jesus therefore answered them, “Most certainly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
(20) For the Father has affection for the Son, and shows him all things that he himself does. He will show him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
(21) For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he desires.
(22) For the Father judges no one, but he has given all judgment to the Son,
(23) that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn’t honor the Son doesn’t honor the Father who sent him.
(24) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
(25) Most certainly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God’s voice; and those who hear will live.
(26) For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.
(27) He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
(28) Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
(29) and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.​

READ all of John ch5 ans see if you can SEE the MOST BOLD Declaration of Jesus claiming who HE is leading up to = IAM in ch8

“If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
37And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
38But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
39You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
40But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

 

[NayborBear]

1 Corinthians 12:
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
(In this case the Holy Spirit....And is and is not to various degrees of access the "Spirit of God!")

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
(Can you discern the differences between God and Lord here?)
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
(This is referring to, like Paul just illustrated, different "administrations", in which he was explaining, or "attempting to anyway, the GOVERNMENT of the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Light, which Jesus Christ of Nazareth BARES, or holds up on His shoulders!)

And you can go and read the rest of the chapter and? Should one have eyes to "see and discern (ears to hear and understand)?" Should give insight as to a "partial grafting" that us gentiles (referred to as wild olive trees, as well as to Israel BECAUSE of their unbelief went FERAL! Or? BECAME as "wild olive trees!" To which we are warned not to become "highminded", or self righteous, lest we are left "cut off!" Which can and does happen "in a blink of an eye" if one is not careful, or ever mindful, or vigilant.)
And? Because of this "feralness" (if you will. aka vanity/self righteousness) of us gentiles? We can THEN understand the WHY Paul was WARNING people as to PRECISELY what had and is STILL happening in and with believers TO THIS DAY!
Those members of the "MANY membered body of Christ" (let's call them "denominations" eh? who, have steeped themselves in "traditions and precepts of MEN" justify themselves in "labeling (therefore) judging" others who are NOT PRECISELY of "their particular mindset" as NOT being OF the "body of Christ!"
Even as much as to being "labeled" as "contentious!" Which (in most instances anyway) is NOT the case!
Why or how can "this" happen?
Because of "a, or the" multitude of SIN that a misinterpretation and MALPRACTICING that "love" COVERS! (as well as the converting a soul into an already watered down "christianity.")

AND?
Because of abysmal efforts of the "spiritual sacrifices acceptable TO God BY Jesus Christ" that are REQUIRED to even be CONSIDERED as entering into this Holy Priesthood of God AND of Christ Jesus of Nazareth!
1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

(This is my take on the situation! Probably isn't too popular with many! Well? Just as popular as Mosiac Law was to Israel, and Jesus Christ is to Constantines churchianity!)

 

[Kermos]

Here's the actual text:

John 17:21-22,

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

I'm not sure why you attach so much importance to "with" vs "in." OK, perhaps I made a mistake. I'm now officially giving up my desperate attempt to change the Word of God. I admit the English word used is "in" and not "with." So, how does it change the truth that many people being called one are not actually one person? Having said that, I might point out the Greek word is "en" which is translated as "with" around 120 times.

I think you also obsess on the phrase "even as." The Greek word is "kathos" and it means "just as." If Jesus being one with God makes him to be God, then you and I are talking to our self, given we are actually one individual, "just as" Jesus and God are the same individual. I guess this doesn't make much sense, does it?


So I'm dead in sins because I misspelled YHWH? All I can say to that is that I'm glad you're not my judge!

1Cor 4:4,

For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Hmm, you claim the Greek "en" can mean "with", so let's test the veracity of your claim.

Matthew 1:18 seems an excellent place to start.

Matthew 1:18 as word-for-word "she-was-found in womb having-[a-child] out-of Spirit Holy' (Matthew 1:18, English "in" is Greek "en").

Here's the NASB "she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit." (Matthew 1:18, the two words "in" [en] and "womb" [gastri] might have been incorporated into "to be with child").

The KJV rendering is "she was found with child of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 1:18, the two words "in" [en] and "womb" [gastri] might have been incorporated into "with child").

Is this one of the instances of the Greek "en" being rendered as "with" in the KJV to which you refer?

The Berean Literal Bible translation is "was found holding in womb through the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 1:18, the two words "in" [en] and "womb" [gastri] appear in the BLB).

The Greek word "en" truly means properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within) (see biblehub.com/greek/1722.htm.

You wrote '"en" which is translated as "with" around 120 times' in what appears to me to be an attempt to legitimatize the word "with" for the word "en" - even after you admitted that the word 'in" is inside John 17:21, and not the word 'with".

Your continued conveyance that "en" means "with" fails linguistically. It is not "with womb" in Matthew 1:18, rather it is "in womb" in Matthew 1:18.

Back to "en" in John 17:21.

In John 17:21, it is very significant that Jesus says "in Us" rather than "with us".

Jesus says the Body of Christ - the group of people being all born of the Holy Spirit of God - are one, and this one being in God.

Rich R, you claimed earlier that Jesus said the people of God are one with God in John 17:21-22, and you further claimed John 17:21-22 diluted Jesus down to being a mere man when Jesus says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) since you further claimed that all the people of God are one with God according to John 17:21-22. Jesus truly says differently than you, as clearly demonstrated.

Lord Jesus says "that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me" (John 17:21, word-for-word 'that all may-be one as You Father [are]-in Me and-I in You that also they in Us may-be that the world may-believe that You Me sent").

Lord Jesus continues with "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are One" (John 17:22).

Jesus says "they may be one" then He continues by saying "just as We are one" thus He has two references to "one". His first use of "one" refers to the people of God of which He separates linguistically from being integrated into "one" with God with His second use of "One" which refers to God.

Rich R, Jesus did not say that the people of God are one with God.

Jesus does say that we the people of God abide in God.

Rich R, you asked "how does it change the truth that many people being called one are not actually one person".

Rich R, Jesus says the people of God are one (John 17:21), and this one includes being one body in the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-8) thus being one Spiritually.

Reality is the Spiritual (2 Corinthians 4:18).

Rich R, you look around yourself and you see the temporal and you impose the temporal on the eternal, but the temporal is temporary and the temporal is passing away.

You see the temporal and you say that Jesus is limited by the temporal.

Eternal Jesus is the Creator of the temporal (John 1:3).

The Spiritual is permanent.

When Jesus says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30), then Jesus says Jesus is YHWH God.

You fail to understand the Spiritual implications of the Lord Jesus using the word "one" in John 17:21-22, including "We are one" (John 17:22) matching "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30).

When I pointed out that you misspelled YHWH, then I was pointing out your fallibility.

I was pointing out your linguistic fallibility which clearly extends beyond that into your grammatical fallibility.

Rich R, your grammatical fallibility leads you to impose your thoughts upon the Word of God thus nullifying the Word of God in your heart (Mark 7:13).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Rich R, Jesus says "I AM" again! but this time with much more sobering words that relate to you "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Rich R]

So, the sayings of Jesus Christ are insufficient for you, Rich R. A believer in Jesus the Lord doesn't reject Jesus' sayings such as Jesus Christ saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Since the scriptures were given to the Jews (Rom 3:2), you may want to see what they thought of preexistence. You are coming from a Greek philosophy perspective.

You, Rich R, are a dangerously unreliable source!

I know you wrote a lot more, but it's all from tradition, a dangerously unreliable source indeed. You appear to be OK with that, so not much more I can say.

 

[Rich R]

Hmm, you claim the Greek "en" can mean "with", so let's test the veracity of your claim.

Matthew 1:18 seems an excellent place to start.

Matthew 1:18 as word-for-word "she-was-found in womb having-[a-child] out-of Spirit Holy' (Matthew 1:18, English "in" is Greek "en").

Here's the NASB "she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit." (Matthew 1:18, the two words "in" [en] and "womb" [gastri] might have been incorporated into "to be with child").

The KJV rendering is "she was found with child of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 1:18, the two words "in" [en] and "womb" [gastri] might have been incorporated into "with child").

Is this one of the instances of the Greek "en" being rendered as "with" in the KJV to which you refer?

The Berean Literal Bible translation is "was found holding in womb through the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 1:18, the two words "in" [en] and "womb" [gastri] appear in the BLB).

The Greek word "en" truly means properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within) (see biblehub.com/greek/1722.htm.

You wrote '"en" which is translated as "with" around 120 times' in what appears to me to be an attempt to legitimatize the word "with" for the word "en" - even after you admitted that the word 'in" is inside John 17:21, and not the word 'with".

Your continued conveyance that "en" means "with" fails linguistically. It is not "with womb" in Matthew 1:18, rather it is "in womb" in Matthew 1:18.

I see your point. So you and I are not one with Jesus and God. OK. However, you and I (and all other Christians) are actually one person? Or should I say millions of people with one essence to keep with the traditional verbiage? Does that even make any difference, let alone sense? I'm thinking not.

You are you, I'm me, Jesus is Jesus, and YHWY is YHWH. That's something our God given brains can actually comprehend. But unfortunately you've been fooled into believing the Greek mystery religions (Gnosticism) where only the enlightened can supposedly make sense out of nonsense. I don't say that to condemn you in any way. We all have our shortcomings. Belief in the trinity is not the worse thing a Christian can do. God knows our frames and loves us regardless. He understands the power that tradition holds over His people.

 

[Kermos]

You are basing a doctrine on a few verses that could perhaps be taken in a Trinitarian way. But, they don't come out and say outright that Jesus is God, whereas I've shown a half dozen verses that specifically say he was a man (Acts 2:22 et. al.), whereas God is NOT a man (Hos 11:9, et. al.). I've also shown where Jesus had a God and a Father, the same as ours to be specific. I've shown where God knew things Jesus didn't know. I've shown that God and Jesus had two different wills. I've shown that Jesus was tempted, whereas God can not be tempted. I showed that Jesus increased in wisdom. I've shown that God is the head of Christ (aren't they supposed to be equal?). I've shown that Jesus will be subject to, or under, God. I've shown that God granted Jesus certain powers and privileges. I've shown where Jesus was made lower than the angels (Heb 2:9). I've shown that Jesus did not preach his own doctrine, but that of the Father.

But that's not all; you'd also have to explain why God talks and prayers to Himself so often. You'd also have to explain how a descendant (seed) of men (Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, David) could be God. All of these clear verses would have to be made to fit with the "I AM" argument, or the "I AM" could be made to fit with the many clear verses. We certainly can't throw any of them away.

I might suggest you look at other usages of "ego eimi." A blind man used the same phrase. Is the blind man therefore also God? There are many other usages of "ego eimi." Be careful about jumping to conclusions just because Jesus said he was before Abraham. We were also chosen before Abraham (Eph 1:4). Could it be that, as I've said many times, the logos of John 1:1 was a plan God had in His mind from the beginning? Part of that plan was of course Jesus Christ, but it also includes us. We, like Jesus, were certainly in God's mind, but none of us existed until we were born, including Jesus. There are plenty of verses that say Jesus was born.

Hebrews 2:9 is worth examining, but first some context.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

Now, the above 7 paragraphs applies to "we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels" (Hebrews 2:9), specifically, in Hebrews 2:6 leading up to Hebrews 2:9, it is written "OR THE SON OF MAN, THAT YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT HIM?" (Hebrews 2:6) - behold the phrase "THE SON OF MAN", SO HEBREWS 2:9 REFERS TO JESUS AS TRULY MAN, YET JESUS REMAINS TRULY GOD ETERNALLY (NOT "MADE FOR A LITTLE WHILE") BECAUSE JESUS SAYS "TRULY, TRULY, I SAY TO YOU, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM" (JOHN 8:58)!

You are repeating concepts which have already been covered with you. Your repetition is in things like your above writing of "I've shown where Jesus was made lower than the angels (Heb 2:9)' and "you'd also have to explain why God talks and prayers to Himself so often".

MY WONDERFUL REDEEMER, JESUS, IS EXAMPLE IN PRAYER (MATTHEW 6:9-13) AND IN DEED (JOHN 13:15) TO ALL PERSONS FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST (ROMANS 8:9, PAUL USES "THE SPIRIT OF GOD" AND "THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST" TO REFER TO THE SAME IN THIS VERSE).

Finally, there's your "I might suggest you look at other usages of "ego eimi." A blind man used the same phrase. Is the blind man therefore also God" which was also covered previously, granted that was a post to @Pierac yet the post was in this thread.

The blind beggar who received sight from God in John 9 claims not perpetual existence prior to Abraham; on the other hand, Lord Jesus does.

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ declares His perpetual existence prior to Abraham with "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Not only do you exercise linguistic folly and scripture nullification (Mark 7:13), but you are also a practitioner of illogic (Matthew 7:23) such as trying to form a mere human like the blind beggar into God. Your deceptions that Jesus is not God run very deep within you.

 

[Kermos]

No, that commandment says "You shall have no other gods before me", i.e. you shall have no other gods that you consider to be greater than YHWH, or above or in front of YHWH. Believing that Jesus is YHWH's son who now has the same divine nature as YHWH, and that YHWH has given Jesus all authority in heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18), is not putting Jesus before YHWH. YHWH refers to Jesus as a god (but he is not breaking His own commandment!):

Hebrews 1:8-13 (WEB):
(8) But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom.
(9) You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.”
(10) And, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands.
(11) They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does.
(12) You will roll them up like a mantle, and they will be changed; but you are the same. Your years will not fail.”
(13) But which of the angels has he told at any time, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies the footstool of your feet?”

John 17:1-5 (WEB):
(1) Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may also glorify you;
(2) even as you gave him authority over all flesh, so he will give eternal life to all whom you have given him.
(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
(4) I glorified you on the earth. I have accomplished the work which you have given me to do.
(5) Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.

It is just like the type of Joseph in the Old Testament. Joseph (symbolic of Jesus) was given all authority in Egypt (symbolic of the whole world), only Pharaoh (symbolic of God) was above him. Genesis 41:38-45 (WEB):

(38) Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God?”
(39) Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Because God has shown you all of this, there is no one so discreet and wise as you.
(40) You shall be over my house, and according to your word will all my people be ruled. Only in the throne I will be greater than you.”
(41) Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Behold, I have set you over all the land of Egypt.”
(42) Pharaoh took off his signet ring from his hand, and put it on Joseph’s hand, and arrayed him in robes of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck.
(43) He made him ride in the second chariot which he had. They cried before him, “Bow the knee!” He set him over all the land of Egypt.
(44) Pharaoh said to Joseph, “I am Pharaoh, and without you shall no man lift up his hand or his foot in all the land of Egypt.”
(45) Pharaoh called Joseph’s name Zaphenath-Paneah [meaning "God speaks, and He lives" according to some Egyptologists]; and he gave him Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera priest of On as a wife. Joseph went out over the land of Egypt.

You do not escape the fact that for your heart, John 1:1 reads "the Word was a god" resulting in Jesus being a separate god from YHWH God thus your "a god" is before YHWH God; therefore, YOU are in violation of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

By the way, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) is the accurate translation as shown in this post which you unceremoniously truncated.

The Apostle John proclaims Jesus to be YHWH God with those words in John 1:1 for there is One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

this comes from a translation hundreds of years after Jesus. which way did Jesus say to write "theos"?
and thats the end of that argument



and now your basing facts on what John was thinking?

this is bad

Thus says the fallable, mortal, non-present person named @jaybird at the time that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1, in Greek "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος") was penned!

According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible. The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned below.

In reality, we have many ancient manuscripts of the Bible available for examination and cross referencing to determine accuracy of scribal duplication efforts.

For example, the Codex Sinaiticus dates to about 350 AD, and the facsimile is available online at Codex Sinaiticus - Home .

We have Greek manuscripts that predate the Roman Catholic Church.

The checks and balances for the source material of the Greek for the Bible results in accuracy.

We have accurate Greek manuscripts that result in accurate translations into English - but not always such as the intentionally corrupt New World Translation Bible.

Because God has preserved the Word of God, the Bible contains Truth (John 14:6).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

jaybird, Jesus says "I AM" again, but this time with much more sobering words that relate to you "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

.......................................................

When an exhaustive examination by anyone of John's use of "God" (ho theos) and all uses of his constructions which are truly parallel to Jn 1:1c are completed, it is apparent that John's intention for John 1:1c is "And the word was a god."

Those who deny this have not done their Berean-like work of carefully and honestly studying this.

If you want to save a little time and effort (a lot of interlinear, NT grammar texts, and concordance use) you could carefully examine my personal study of John's intended meaning of Jn 1:1c. - Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity Or, Examining the Trinity or, the original and lengthiest Examining the Trinity: DEFinite John 1:1c or, the answer to the "Quality" interpretation of Jn 1:1c by some, Examining the Trinity: QUAL ("Qualitative" John 1:1c)

For a clear example where context and grammar unmistakably agree, see in the ancient Greek translation of the OT (3 Kings 18:27 in Septuagint, 1 Kings 18:27 in Hebrew text). Here in the Greek Septuagint theos without the definite article comes before its verb (exactly as in John 1:1c) and is translated as "he is a god."

Godly men and angels called gods:
Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God's angels as gods include:

1. Young's Analytical Concordance of the Bible, "Hints and Helps...," Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;
2. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew and Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;
3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;
4. Today's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;
5. Hastings' A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;
6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;
7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;
8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; & p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;
9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;
10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7, 1970 ed.;
11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;
12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;
13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;
14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press,1975;
15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);
16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);
17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (John 10:34-36);
18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);
19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).
20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.
21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.
22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.
23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.
24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.
25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.
26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.
27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.
(also John 10:34, 35 - CEV: TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV; David Guzik (John 10:34).

And, of course the highly respected and highly popular Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for "God"/"a god" about the same time the NT was written. - See the LOGOS study.

And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus; the writer of "The Epistle to Diognetus"; and even super-Trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for "a god." And, as we saw above, many respected NT scholars of this century agree. (For example, Ernst Haenchen tells us in his commentary on the Gospel of John:

"It was quite possible in Jewish and Christian monotheism to speak of divine beings that existed alongside and under God but were not identical with him. Phil 2:6-10 proves that. In that passage Paul depicts just such a divine being, who later became man in Jesus Christ". - John 1, translated by R. W. Funk, 1984, pp. 109, 110, Fortress Press.)

As for Thomas' statement see: Examining the Trinity: MYGOD

You do not escape the fact that for your heart, John 1:1 reads "the Word was a god" resulting in Jesus being a separate god from YHWH God thus your "a god" is before YHWH God; therefore, YOU are in violation of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

By the way, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) is the accurate translation as shown in this post to which you replied.

The Apostle John proclaims Jesus to be YHWH God with those words in John 1:1 for there is One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

As @David in NJ accurately explained to you about your deceptive post:

Completely false and a LIE.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

Since the scriptures were given to the Jews (Rom 3:2), you may want to see what they thought of preexistence. You are coming from a Greek philosophy perspective.



I know you wrote a lot more, but it's all from tradition, a dangerously unreliable source indeed. You appear to be OK with that, so not much more I can say.

Now you call Greek philosophers all these (1) the Apostle Paul, (2) the Apostle Peter, (3) the Apostle Thomas, (4) the Apostle John, and (5) Lord Jesus Himself because I quoted them in the post to which you replied as shown below.

You are basing a doctrine on a few verses that could perhaps be taken in a Trinitarian way. But, they don't come out and say outright that Jesus is God, whereas I've shown a half dozen verses that specifically say he was a man (Acts 2:22 et. al.), whereas God is NOT a man (Hos 11:9, et. al.). I've also shown where Jesus had a God and a Father, the same as ours to be specific. I've shown where God knew things Jesus didn't know. I've shown that God and Jesus had two different wills. I've shown that Jesus was tempted, whereas God can not be tempted. I showed that Jesus increased in wisdom. I've shown that God is the head of Christ (aren't they supposed to be equal?). I've shown that Jesus will be subject to, or under, God. I've shown that God granted Jesus certain powers and privileges. I've shown where Jesus was made lower than the angels (Heb 2:9). I've shown that Jesus did not preach his own doctrine, but that of the Father.

But that's not all; you'd also have to explain why God talks and prayers to Himself so often. You'd also have to explain how a descendant (seed) of men (Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, David) could be God. All of these clear verses would have to be made to fit with the "I AM" argument, or the "I AM" could be made to fit with the many clear verses. We certainly can't throw any of them away.

I might suggest you look at other usages of "ego eimi." A blind man used the same phrase. Is the blind man therefore also God? There are many other usages of "ego eimi." Be careful about jumping to conclusions just because Jesus said he was before Abraham. We were also chosen before Abraham (Eph 1:4). Could it be that, as I've said many times, the logos of John 1:1 was a plan God had in His mind from the beginning? Part of that plan was of course Jesus Christ, but it also includes us. We, like Jesus, were certainly in God's mind, but none of us existed until we were born, including Jesus. There are plenty of verses that say Jesus was born.

So, the sayings of Jesus Christ are insufficient for you, Rich R. A believer in Jesus the Lord doesn't reject Jesus' sayings such as Jesus Christ saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

You, Rich R, are a dangerously unreliable source!

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).