A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Pierac]

The BIG THREE

Echad Elohim said: "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness." 3x = Genesis 1:26

BIG THREE = "Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being examined today about a kind service to a man who was lame, to determine how he was healed, then let this be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel:
It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. This Jesus is
‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:8-12

Then the Jews (and jw's) surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
I and My Father are one(echad).”
John ch10

Without THREE you cannot SEE

Grab them ankles David...

When God says "let us make man in our image" are we being taught that the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit are together creating human beings? How is it that when some read this statement their minds immediately think of "let us three"? The verse says nothing about God speaking to the Son or to the Holy Spirit. It simply says that God addressed someone else or some others than Himself. The “us” could refer to just one other, or to many others. But who is this someone or who are these others to whom God speaks here?

The Hebrews understood that God addressed His heavenly court, the angelic host and that He allowed them to watch his master-work in creating mankind unfold. This is quite reasonable, for there are other times when God involves the angels in His work. In Isaiah 6, God is seen in His Heavenly temple with the cherubs and all the heavenly court. There God asks, "Whom shall I send, and whom will go for us?" (v.8). It is certainly the case in 1 Kings 22:19-20 where the Lord is seen "sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left" and he asked the heavenly court ‘“who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-Gilead?’ And one said this while the other said that."

Let’s return to Genesis 1:26. It is reasonable to suggest then that God in some way took the angels into confidence with Himself when he created Adam? This is collaborated in Job 38:4, 7 where God says that when He laid the foundations of the earth "all the sons of God shouted for joy." The sons of God are of course the angels as Job 1:6 and 2:1 confirm. God's own testimony is that the work of creation, "the heavens," "the earth" and "all things" were His work alone. This fact is established right away at the very outset of Genesis 1 where we are first introduced to God (elohim) the Creator. It is also clear that when he came to create Adam and Eve he told the angels to watch in awe. In this way the heavenly hosts participated as spectators of the miracle of man's creation.

Now if you're still not convinced that the God of creation is one God and not three in one, here is our Lord Jesus own commentary on Genesis 1:26. He will settle this issue for us.

In Matthew 19:4 and Mark 13:19 Jesus tells us…

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

According to Jesus himself the creator God was not "We who made them from the beginning" but a single person He! Jesus does not include himself in the Genesis 1 creation of Adam, and He is also telling us that God (Father) Created all from the beginning.

You can let go now!
Paul

 

[Rich R]

Food for thought,
if not the Bread of Life
all is for naught

Very true. Jesus is the Bread of Life. He says so in John 6:35.

Interestingly enough, verse 38 says Jesus does not do his own will, but he does the will of his Father. God has two different wills. So God has two different wills but one is subjugated to the other? Something's wrong with that. Of course it'd make perfect if we take two different wills as indicating two different people.

Just curious, have you investigated what the Ancient Near Eastern folks, including Israel, thought about agency? The Jewish term is
Shaliah | Hebrew Word Study | Skip Moen. We are Jesus' agents here on earth (Acts 1:8), as Jesus was God's agent on earth. An agent is not the same as the one who sent them.

If we understand Jesus as the one who God sent, God's agent, then the Bible all fits together and we don't have to explain the unexplainable trinity. We can also appreciate the brilliance of God's plan, the logos of John 1:1, as well as the incredible heroism of Jesus in carrying out the plan as God's agent. It's all stuff we can actually understand.

 

[Pierac]

So, I realize you are asking David for this scriptural evidence, but...

God the Father wills it:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, compassion on whom I will have compassion" ~ God the Father, through Moses, Exodus 33:19

"He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, compassion on whom I will have compassion'... So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." ~ God the Father, through Moses and Paul, and Paul himself, Romans 9:15,18​

God the Son accomplishes redemption with His sinless life and His work of redemption on the cross:

"It is finished." ~ Jesus, John 19:30

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin" ~ Hebrews 4:15

"...he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross... Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" ~ Philippians 2:8-11​

God the Holy Spirit works it in us and sustains us to the end:

"I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you... the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you" ~ John 14:16-26​

It takes all three Persons, the triune Jehovah, working in sovereign unity and perfection.

Grace and peace to you.

Are you finally starting to see what Peter taught at the Day of Pentecost...after Jesus dies and was raised from the dead ?

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

Do you now know?
Paul

 

[Rich R]

So, I realize you are asking David for this scriptural evidence, but...

God the Father wills it:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, compassion on whom I will have compassion" ~ God the Father, through Moses, Exodus 33:19

"He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, compassion on whom I will have compassion'... So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." ~ God the Father, through Moses and Paul, and Paul himself, Romans 9:15,18​

God the Son accomplishes redemption with His sinless life and His work of redemption on the cross:

"It is finished." ~ Jesus, John 19:30

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin" ~ Hebrews 4:15

"...he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross... Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" ~ Philippians 2:8-11​

God the Holy Spirit works it in us and sustains us to the end:

"I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you... the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you" ~ John 14:16-26​

It takes all three Persons, the triune Jehovah, working in sovereign unity and perfection.

Grace and peace to you.

All very true, but where does it say all three are actually one? I mean take John 14:6 for instance; was God talking to Himself? I don't think so. It looks like one guy named Jesus was talking to another guy, his Father, named YHWH. That's two folks there. What's wrong with that?

Acts 2:22,

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
​

Trinitarians say Jesus is God. Luke says Jesus was a man approved of God. It's one or the other. I can find about 6 other verses that explicitly call Jesus a man. There are no verses that explicitly call him God or a god-man. Does that not give you reason to pause and think about what's really going on?

 

[Rich R]

Now... Let's review your older post after my response... I wanted you to give an answer about the three needed to be saved... so i jumped to the point..

Now I just want to show you how you use scripture that disproves what you believe... You used Act 4:8-10

Act 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers and elders of the people, 9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by this name this man stands here before you in good health.

Here in Acts You have Jesus actually dead.... And God raising him from the dead! You can not be God and then have a God that needs raise you from the dead!

The Bible also states that only God has immortality. 1 Timothy 6:16:
"Who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, and whom no human being has seen or can see."
Now let’s take a look at another verse that speak of God raising Jesus. Acts 2:32 states: "God raised this Jesus"

Who raised this Jesus? GOD! Notice that it does not say "the Father," but "God." Unless we discard every known rule of language, we can see that Jesus is not included in the term God. Another point to be made is that God is alive and Jesus is dead. God is raising Jesus from the dead. As Timothy pointed out before, God is immortal, He cannot die. Jesus on the other hand is DEAD. If you believe Jesus to be God, then it is obvious that Jesus was never truly dead because he did in fact raise himself from the dead. Do you think that the Bible is wrong or that the creeds that were created by men that made Jesus God are wrong. Someone is wrong, the question is who, the writers of the Bible or the writers of your creeds?

So by posting Act 4:10... You contradicted your own beliefs in so many ways... First You showed that Jesus has a God that raised him from the dead... and god can not die! Second, God cannot die so if Jesus was God then no one died for your sins... you starting to see your problem???

Paul

I'm thinking that we should figure out who God's God is. Why should we worship a lesser God? Let's get to the big one.

There's just no end to the confusion caused by making God like 3 in 1 oil.

 

[David in NJ]

PAY ATTENTION - TRUTH ALERT
No one has seen the Father except the One who is from God; only He has seen the Father. John 6:46

Exodus 33:19-23
I will cause all My goodness to pass before you,” the LORD replied, “and I will proclaim My name—the LORD—in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” But He added, “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.” The LORD continued, “There is a place near Me where you are to stand upon a rock, and when My glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will take My hand away, and you will see My back; but My face must not be seen

No one has seen the Father except the One who is from God; only He has seen the Father. John 6:46

YAHshuah = YHWH came down/YHWH humbled Himself = Phillipians 2:5-11

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped, but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death— even death on a cross.

 

[PinSeeker]

All very true, but where does it say all three are actually one?

Well, Jesus does say that He and the Father are one (John 10:30). So God is at least a duality. But we see clearly in Genesis 1 and John 1 that Jehovah is triune.

Grace and peace to you, Rich!

 

[PinSeeker]

Are you finally starting to see what Peter taught at the Day of Pentecost...after Jesus dies and was raised from the dead ?

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

You'd have to explain your question, as in explain what you think I'm "finally starting to see." But don't worry about that. Like I said previously, take your "thoughts" and...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

Well, Jesus does say that He and the Father are one (John 10:30). So God is at least a duality. But we see clearly in Genesis 1 and John 1 that Jehovah is triune.

Grace and peace to you, Rich!

But what does it mean to be one? If being one makes two or more people really one person, then what to we do with John 17:11 and 22?

11 "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].":

22 "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"
​

Maybe "being one" is a figure of speech that shows how aligned two or more people are in purpose and goals?

 

[Keiw]

So Jesus was not at all like the rest of us and Hebrews 2:16-17 should be removed from the scriptures?

It looks like you are following Greek philosophy by making wisdom (Priv 8) a person. Since the scriptures was not given to them but to the Jews, see how the Jews looked at wisdom. That will also offer a clue as to how the Jews looked at the "word" in John 1:1. Suffice it to say, to the Jews, neither "wisdom" nor the "word" were persons.

The Jewish are cut off--They are apostocised for over 1950 years-Matt 23:38-- They made up lies about Jesus out of hatred. Jesus became wisdom- 1Cor 1:30-- Jesus is the being speaking at Prov 8= created direct first and last.

 

[David in NJ]

The Jewish are cut off--They are apostocised for over 1950 years-Matt 23:38-- They made up lies about Jesus out of hatred. Jesus became wisdom- 1Cor 1:30-- Jesus is the being speaking at Prov 8= created direct first and last.

Saying Jesus was created is a lie and just as bad as saying Jesus is not the Messiah.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

HE/JESUS is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All things were created through HIM and for HIM.
And HE is before all things,
and in HIM all things consist.
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

 

[PinSeeker]

But what does it mean to be one?

Great question; I'll come back to this...

If being one makes two or more people really one person, then what to we do with John 17:11 and 22?

Right; that's not what I'm asserting. That would be a silly understanding, no?

11 "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].":

22 "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"
​

Maybe "being one" is a figure of speech that shows how aligned two or more people are in purpose and goals?

I'll buy that... ... but there's a lot more to it than that. Two parallel concepts:

1. All we who are in Christ are one, as the Scriptures testify. Together, we are the body of Christ, and even the bride of Christ. Does that mean there are no longer a multitude of individual people, but only one? Well, no, of course not.

2. Moses and Paul both point out that once a Christian man and a Christian woman are married, they are one flesh. Are their bodies somehow "melded" into one, that there are no longer two individual people but only one? Well, no, of course not.

And I'll just add that God says, in Genesis 1, "Let us make man in our image." Clearly, He's speaking of Himself in the plural and not the singular. Actually... well, I'll save that for last... But to your question of what it means to be one... You know, I could go ahead and answer, but I'll hear yours first, if you want to take a stab at it. Sorry, I don't mean to be coy, or avoiding in any way. I just think you have some ideas about this, and I'd love to understand what they are.

For now, I'll just say that God, in Genesis 1 ~ and John is speaking of God in the same way in John 1 ~ is speaking of Himself in the singular (one in essence) and the plural (more than one Person, in perfect unity) at the same time. It's quite incredible.

But my point in saying what I've said, though, is that God is necessarily One and more than one at the same time. And all of His creation testifies to that ~ all of us together as one in Christ, and a man and wife as one in marriage.

Grace and peace to you.[/QUOTE]

 

[David in NJ]

Great question; I'll come back to this...


Right; that's not what I'm asserting. That would be a silly understanding, no?


I'll buy that... ... but there's a lot more to it than that. Two parallel concepts:

1. All we who are in Christ are one, as the Scriptures testify. Together, we are the body of Christ, and even the bride of Christ. Does that mean there are no longer a multitude of individual people, but only one? Well, no, of course not.

2. Moses and Paul both point out that once a Christian man and a Christian woman are married, they are one flesh. Are their bodies somehow "melded" into one, that there are no longer two individual people but only one? Well, no, of course not.

And I'll just add that God says, in Genesis 1, "Let us make man in our image." Clearly, He's speaking of Himself in the plural and not the singular. Actually... well, I'll save that for last... But to your question of what it means to be one... You know, I could go ahead and answer, but I'll hear yours first, if you want to take a stab at it. Sorry, I don't mean to be coy, or avoiding in any way. I just think you have some ideas about this, and I'd love to understand what they are.

For now, I'll just say that God, in Genesis 1 ~ and John is speaking of God in the same way in John 1 ~ is speaking of Himself in the singular (one in essence) and the plural (more than one Person, in perfect unity) at the same time. It's quite incredible.

But my point in saying what I've said, though, is that God is necessarily One and more than one at the same time. And all of His creation testifies to that ~ all of us together as one in Christ, and a man and wife as one in marriage.

Grace and peace to you.

[/QUOTE]

You think that God is speaking as a singular in Genesis 1 and that John also is speaking of a singular in John 1???

 

[Keiw]

Saying Jesus was created is a lie and just as bad as saying Jesus is not the Messiah.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

HE/JESUS is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All things were created through HIM and for HIM.
And HE is before all things,
and in HIM all things consist.
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Your teachers are twisting reality--Coll 1:15- The FIRSTBORN of all creation. Says exactly what it means-- all Creation happened over 6000 years ago. Not at Jesus mortal birth. The speaker at proverbs 8--not God speaking--Says he was created. Who else do you think God lets speak from heaven through men--His master worker, the one whom YHWH created all other things through, the being sent named Jesus as a mortal. This is reality.
The religion that came out of Rome translated errors in to fit false council teachings. Michael is the one God sent--Michael is the one standing up for Gods chosen-Daniel 12:1--Upon Jesus return, he comes with the voice of the archangel( 1Thess 4:16)-- it is his voice. That is why both Michael and Jesus are shown riding the white horse in revelation--its the same ride.
Truth was twisted into oblivion through the centuries because of translating errors, Truth has now become abundant, but not until these last days( Daniel 12:4)-- Thus all still living by the old errors are losing. One must worship the Father in spirit and truth.( John 4:22-24) He accepts no less.

 

[David in NJ]

Your teachers are twisting reality--Coll 1:15- The FIRSTBORN of all creation. Says exactly what it means-- all Creation happened over 6000 years ago. Not at Jesus mortal birth. The speaker at proverbs 8--not God speaking--Says he was created. Who else do you think God lets speak from heaven through men--His master worker, the one whom YHWH created all other things through, the being sent named Jesus as a mortal. This is reality.
The religion that came out of Rome translated errors in to fit false council teachings. Michael is the one God sent--Michael is the one standing up for Gods chosen-Daniel 12:1--Upon Jesus return, he comes with the voice of the archangel( 1Thess 4:16)-- it is his voice. That is why both Michael and Jesus are shown riding the white horse in revelation--its the same ride.
Truth was twisted into oblivion through the centuries because of translating errors, Truth has now become abundant, but not until these last days( Daniel 12:4)-- Thus all still living by the old errors are losing. One must worship the Father in spirit and truth.( John 4:22-24) He accepts no less.

"Firstborn of all creation" = you are clueless as to what this means and therefore you believe lies from the cult 'watchtower/jw.
jw's and all who reject the Gospel and ALL that the LORD spoke when HE was on this earth will give an account on their knees before HIM.

Michael is a archangel that bows his head, kneels and worships YHWH Jesus Christ = Hebrews ch1

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”
But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

 

[Pierac]

"Firstborn of all creation" = you are clueless as to what this means and therefore you believe lies from the cult 'watchtower/jw.
jw's and all who reject the Gospel and ALL that the LORD spoke when HE was on this earth will give an account on their knees before HIM.

Michael is a archangel that bows his head, kneels and worships YHWH Jesus Christ = Hebrews ch1

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”
But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

David... David leave the poor JW alone... I would respect you if you actually knew what your talking about!

The word “first-born” comes to the New Testament with a rich Hebrew heritage. The Hebrews had a custom of conferring special birthright privileges on their oldest sons. The eldest son of a father would receive the double portion of the family's inheritance. The well-known story of Jacob tricking his father Isaac into conferring on him - rather than on the first-born-Esau all the family blessing is typical of this culture (Gen 27:32). There is a deeper nuance to the meaning of this word “first-born.” The Greek word for “first” can mean either a first in time or first in status, regardless of birth position. The “first-born” may designate one who is given the honor of chief rank, that is, the first place. This usage can also be found in the Hebrew Bible, as when Jacob summons his son to bequeath his patriarchal blessing on them, he designates Reuben as “my first-born”… preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power. (Gen 49:3)

Although Reubin is “first-born” in time, the prominent idea is his status in dignity. This is clearly the meaning in Jeremiah 31:9 where God calls Ephraim his “first-born” even though Ephraim’s brother, Manasseh, was the elder of the two. Or when God calls Israel his first-born son in Exodus 4:22 and commands Pharaoh to “let my son go that he may worship me.” (v.23) The concept has to do with Israel's precedence in importance over Egypt as far as God's plans were concerned. The classic instance of this idea of pre-eminence of rank is in the Messianic Psalms 89 where God, in glowing words, speaks of the coming promise Davidic king, the Lord Messiah:

Psa 89:26 He shall cry to me, 'You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.' 27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. 28 My steadfast love I will keep for him forever, and my covenant will stand firm for him. 29 I will establish his offspring forever and his throne as the days of the heavens.

In the spirit of prophecy, God announces that this king’s superior position is a matter of appointment, not the time of birth. Furthermore, God makes his appointed king "the highest [in status and rank] of the kings of the earth." Thus, when the apostle applies the term “first-born” to the son of God in Colossians 1, he is using a well-known OT Messianic description. In fact, the expression is repeated a few verses later, where Paul writes, “He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead” (v.18). The different qualifier here is noteworthy. Whereas in verse 15 the Son is the “first-born” of all creation,” here the Son is the "first-born from the dead.” If we take into account the Hebrew literary style of parallelism, where the same idea is repeated but in slightly modified form, it is quite reasonable to suggest that the qualifiers "of all creation" and "from the dead" means the same thing.

The thought is clearly that Jesus the son of God is the first man of God's new creation, because he is the first man ever to be raised to immortality. Christ returned is the beginning of the eschatological resurrection. His resurrection is the promise and the guarantee that God's new order of reality has begun. The church is that new community in prospect. This confirms that the subject matter under discussion is not the Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth, but rather the creation of the church, the body of believers who constitute God's new humanity, the New Man(kind). For this reason, he is the beginning (arche which has an ambivalence, and can mean either the ruler or chief, or origin or beginning, v. 18) Either way, Jesus as the first-raised from the dead is the origin of God's new creation, and he is in consequence of this priority and resurrection also the highest in rank "so that he himself might come to have first place in everything" (v.18). However, whether we take the term firstborn to mean first in relation to time or first in relation to rank, this much is at least clear, that taken in its natural sense, the expression and firstborn excludes the notion of an uncreated, eternal being.

To be born requires a beginning. In order to verify our findings so far, we must look at the second part of the phrase that the son is "the first-born of all creation."
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Come on David... Your using cheesy theology and misleading scripture to Meet your false liberal beliefs! Don't apply your culture onto others! It's tacky!
Paul

 

[David in NJ]

Grab them ankles David...

When God says "let us make man in our image" are we being taught that the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit are together creating human beings? How is it that when some read this statement their minds immediately think of "let us three"? The verse says nothing about God speaking to the Son or to the Holy Spirit. It simply says that God addressed someone else or some others than Himself. The “us” could refer to just one other, or to many others. But who is this someone or who are these others to whom God speaks here?

The Hebrews understood that God addressed His heavenly court, the angelic host and that He allowed them to watch his master-work in creating mankind unfold. This is quite reasonable, for there are other times when God involves the angels in His work. In Isaiah 6, God is seen in His Heavenly temple with the cherubs and all the heavenly court. There God asks, "Whom shall I send, and whom will go for us?" (v.8). It is certainly the case in 1 Kings 22:19-20 where the Lord is seen "sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left" and he asked the heavenly court ‘“who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-Gilead?’ And one said this while the other said that."

Let’s return to Genesis 1:26. It is reasonable to suggest then that God in some way took the angels into confidence with Himself when he created Adam? This is collaborated in Job 38:4, 7 where God says that when He laid the foundations of the earth "all the sons of God shouted for joy." The sons of God are of course the angels as Job 1:6 and 2:1 confirm. God's own testimony is that the work of creation, "the heavens," "the earth" and "all things" were His work alone. This fact is established right away at the very outset of Genesis 1 where we are first introduced to God (elohim) the Creator. It is also clear that when he came to create Adam and Eve he told the angels to watch in awe. In this way the heavenly hosts participated as spectators of the miracle of man's creation.

Now if you're still not convinced that the God of creation is one God and not three in one, here is our Lord Jesus own commentary on Genesis 1:26. He will settle this issue for us.

In Matthew 19:4 and Mark 13:19 Jesus tells us…

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

According to Jesus himself the creator God was not "We who made them from the beginning" but a single person He! Jesus does not include himself in the Genesis 1 creation of Adam, and He is also telling us that God (Father) Created all from the beginning.

You can let go now!
Paul

As usual you miss the target.

 

[David in NJ]

David... David leave the poor JW alone... I would respect you if you actually knew what your talking about!

The word “first-born” comes to the New Testament with a rich Hebrew heritage. The Hebrews had a custom of conferring special birthright privileges on their oldest sons. The eldest son of a father would receive the double portion of the family's inheritance. The well-known story of Jacob tricking his father Isaac into conferring on him - rather than on the first-born-Esau all the family blessing is typical of this culture (Gen 27:32). There is a deeper nuance to the meaning of this word “first-born.” The Greek word for “first” can mean either a first in time or first in status, regardless of birth position. The “first-born” may designate one who is given the honor of chief rank, that is, the first place. This usage can also be found in the Hebrew Bible, as when Jacob summons his son to bequeath his patriarchal blessing on them, he designates Reuben as “my first-born”… preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power. (Gen 49:3)

Although Reubin is “first-born” in time, the prominent idea is his status in dignity. This is clearly the meaning in Jeremiah 31:9 where God calls Ephraim his “first-born” even though Ephraim’s brother, Manasseh, was the elder of the two. Or when God calls Israel his first-born son in Exodus 4:22 and commands Pharaoh to “let my son go that he may worship me.” (v.23) The concept has to do with Israel's precedence in importance over Egypt as far as God's plans were concerned. The classic instance of this idea of pre-eminence of rank is in the Messianic Psalms 89 where God, in glowing words, speaks of the coming promise Davidic king, the Lord Messiah:

Psa 89:26 He shall cry to me, 'You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.' 27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. 28 My steadfast love I will keep for him forever, and my covenant will stand firm for him. 29 I will establish his offspring forever and his throne as the days of the heavens.

In the spirit of prophecy, God announces that this king’s superior position is a matter of appointment, not the time of birth. Furthermore, God makes his appointed king "the highest [in status and rank] of the kings of the earth." Thus, when the apostle applies the term “first-born” to the son of God in Colossians 1, he is using a well-known OT Messianic description. In fact, the expression is repeated a few verses later, where Paul writes, “He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead” (v.18). The different qualifier here is noteworthy. Whereas in verse 15 the Son is the “first-born” of all creation,” here the Son is the "first-born from the dead.” If we take into account the Hebrew literary style of parallelism, where the same idea is repeated but in slightly modified form, it is quite reasonable to suggest that the qualifiers "of all creation" and "from the dead" means the same thing.

The thought is clearly that Jesus the son of God is the first man of God's new creation, because he is the first man ever to be raised to immortality. Christ returned is the beginning of the eschatological resurrection. His resurrection is the promise and the guarantee that God's new order of reality has begun. The church is that new community in prospect. This confirms that the subject matter under discussion is not the Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth, but rather the creation of the church, the body of believers who constitute God's new humanity, the New Man(kind). For this reason, he is the beginning (arche which has an ambivalence, and can mean either the ruler or chief, or origin or beginning, v. 18) Either way, Jesus as the first-raised from the dead is the origin of God's new creation, and he is in consequence of this priority and resurrection also the highest in rank "so that he himself might come to have first place in everything" (v.18). However, whether we take the term firstborn to mean first in relation to time or first in relation to rank, this much is at least clear, that taken in its natural sense, the expression and firstborn excludes the notion of an uncreated, eternal being.

To be born requires a beginning. In order to verify our findings so far, we must look at the second part of the phrase that the son is "the first-born of all creation."
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Come on David... Your using cheesy theology and misleading scripture to Meet your false liberal beliefs! Don't apply your culture onto others! It's tacky!
Paul

If you humble yourself now before the LORD(YHWH) Jesus Christ, you will find rest for your troubled soul.

You seek to apply carnal understanding to the Eternal Elohim WORD who was Echad with Elohim FATHER and Elohim HOLY SPIRIT before the world and creation ever existed.

Just this one passage of Scripture obliterates your falsehood of a created SON.

"When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do. And now, Father, glorify Me in with the glory I had with You before the world existed."

Gospel of John obliterates all false doctrines from jw's, mormons and the like, including RCC.

The Scripture says: "TODAY, if you will hear HIS VOICE, harden not your heart...." Hebrews ch1 -ch3
This is the SAME VOICE heard walking in the Garden by Adam & Eve.

If any of us fail to humble ourselves before YHWH Jesus Christ now, TODAY, there will only be judgment waiting.

Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the Name above all names, that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD(YHWH),
to the glory of God(Elohim) the Father.
Philippians 2:9-11

Notice the scripture does not say "to the glory of YHWH the Father"

 

[David in NJ]

David... David leave the poor JW alone... I would respect you if you actually knew what your talking about!

The word “first-born” comes to the New Testament with a rich Hebrew heritage. The Hebrews had a custom of conferring special birthright privileges on their oldest sons. The eldest son of a father would receive the double portion of the family's inheritance. The well-known story of Jacob tricking his father Isaac into conferring on him - rather than on the first-born-Esau all the family blessing is typical of this culture (Gen 27:32). There is a deeper nuance to the meaning of this word “first-born.” The Greek word for “first” can mean either a first in time or first in status, regardless of birth position. The “first-born” may designate one who is given the honor of chief rank, that is, the first place. This usage can also be found in the Hebrew Bible, as when Jacob summons his son to bequeath his patriarchal blessing on them, he designates Reuben as “my first-born”… preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power. (Gen 49:3)

Although Reubin is “first-born” in time, the prominent idea is his status in dignity. This is clearly the meaning in Jeremiah 31:9 where God calls Ephraim his “first-born” even though Ephraim’s brother, Manasseh, was the elder of the two. Or when God calls Israel his first-born son in Exodus 4:22 and commands Pharaoh to “let my son go that he may worship me.” (v.23) The concept has to do with Israel's precedence in importance over Egypt as far as God's plans were concerned. The classic instance of this idea of pre-eminence of rank is in the Messianic Psalms 89 where God, in glowing words, speaks of the coming promise Davidic king, the Lord Messiah:

Psa 89:26 He shall cry to me, 'You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.' 27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. 28 My steadfast love I will keep for him forever, and my covenant will stand firm for him. 29 I will establish his offspring forever and his throne as the days of the heavens.

In the spirit of prophecy, God announces that this king’s superior position is a matter of appointment, not the time of birth. Furthermore, God makes his appointed king "the highest [in status and rank] of the kings of the earth." Thus, when the apostle applies the term “first-born” to the son of God in Colossians 1, he is using a well-known OT Messianic description. In fact, the expression is repeated a few verses later, where Paul writes, “He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead” (v.18). The different qualifier here is noteworthy. Whereas in verse 15 the Son is the “first-born” of all creation,” here the Son is the "first-born from the dead.” If we take into account the Hebrew literary style of parallelism, where the same idea is repeated but in slightly modified form, it is quite reasonable to suggest that the qualifiers "of all creation" and "from the dead" means the same thing.

The thought is clearly that Jesus the son of God is the first man of God's new creation, because he is the first man ever to be raised to immortality. Christ returned is the beginning of the eschatological resurrection. His resurrection is the promise and the guarantee that God's new order of reality has begun. The church is that new community in prospect. This confirms that the subject matter under discussion is not the Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth, but rather the creation of the church, the body of believers who constitute God's new humanity, the New Man(kind). For this reason, he is the beginning (arche which has an ambivalence, and can mean either the ruler or chief, or origin or beginning, v. 18) Either way, Jesus as the first-raised from the dead is the origin of God's new creation, and he is in consequence of this priority and resurrection also the highest in rank "so that he himself might come to have first place in everything" (v.18). However, whether we take the term firstborn to mean first in relation to time or first in relation to rank, this much is at least clear, that taken in its natural sense, the expression and firstborn excludes the notion of an uncreated, eternal being.

To be born requires a beginning. In order to verify our findings so far, we must look at the second part of the phrase that the son is "the first-born of all creation."
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Come on David... Your using cheesy theology and misleading scripture to Meet your false liberal beliefs! Don't apply your culture onto others! It's tacky!
Paul

The verbage/usage of "firstborn" when spoken of the LORD Jesus Christ is about His humanity, His suffering, His Death and His Resurrection
= YHWH coming in the flesh HE emptied Himself.

This is not about HIM being created.

You have a dilemma and a choice to make: either you believe the LORD or you don't by making false claims that cannot be supported by Scripture.
Gospel of John: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
A.) the SON is the Word who is Eternal and was with Elohim before creation.
B.) the SON is the Word who was Elohim from the beginning in Genesis 1:1
C.) the SON is the Word that created all things from the beginning
D.) the SON is the LIFE that gives life and light to men/mankind
E.) the SON/Word became flesh and dwelt among mankind
F.) Elohim FATHER was with Elohim SON and Elohim HOLY SPIRIT from the beginning Genesis chapters 1-3
G.) Elohim FATHER/SON/SPIRIT are revealed to us in the creation of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob
H.) Elohim FATHER/SON/SPIRIT is the Name given to Moses to identify who YHWH is to Moses
I.) No one has seen the FATHER but the SON
J.) Moses saw YHWH the Elohim SON
K.) Before Abraham Jesus is IAM
L.) the SON and the FATHER are Echad/One
M.) the LORD/YHWH Jesus only prays to His FATHER Elohim
N.) the Elohim Holy Spirit RESTS upon Elohim SON/Jesus
o.) ALL THREE are Echad/One

 

[DavidB]

If you humble yourself now before the LORD(YHWH) Jesus Christ, you will find rest for your troubled soul.

You seek to apply carnal understanding to the Eternal Elohim WORD who was Echad with Elohim FATHER and Elohim HOLY SPIRIT before the world and creation ever existed.

Just this one passage of Scripture obliterates your falsehood of a created SON.

"When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do. And now, Father, glorify Me in with the glory I had with You before the world existed."

Gospel of John obliterates all false doctrines from jw's, mormons and the like, including RCC.

The Scripture says: "TODAY, if you will hear HIS VOICE, harden not your heart...." Hebrews ch1 -ch3
This is the SAME VOICE heard walking in the Garden by Adam & Eve.

If any of us fail to humble ourselves before YHWH Jesus Christ now, TODAY, there will only be judgment waiting.

Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the Name above all names, that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD(YHWH),
to the glory of God(Elohim) the Father.
Philippians 2:9-11

Notice the scripture does not say "to the glory of YHWH the Father"

But it does say that “God exalted him” that God “gave him the name” and it was to be “to the glory of God the Father.” Also what translation are you quoting that has Lord in all capitals in this verse. I checked over 60 translations and could not find one. Saying Jesus “is LORD(YHWH)” is not the truth.