A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird @NayborBear @Wrangler @XFire @APAK

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14 because the passage in John's exchange revolves around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being", YHWH God.

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language.

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

Lord Jesus is Truth (John 14:6), but you do not believe the Truth (John 14:6).

The Truth (John 14:6) says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24), yet you do not believe that Jesus is I AM!

 

[XFire]

John 14.6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
States that Jesus is not the Father
I do believe that he is the I AM
And With that he is still the 1st creation of God the father he is also subordinate as in Isaiah 4511 from God the father and yet there is no savior beside him.

But Again I believe the words directly attributed to Jesus Christ. Who is also Yahweh Jehovah in the Old Testament.

In Ezekiel 48.35. On the new earth. Jesus states he will be in the temple

Who then is in heaven??

I also can't fathom a God that creates billions of stars only to inhabit 1 planet by 1 star.

I believe God the father reigns in heaven forever.
Also please use correct references as it was hard to follow without them
Thanks

 

[Wrangler]

Who then is in heaven??

It is significant that Jesus did not teach the trinity. It begs the question of why do Jesus followers teach the trinity.

Also significant is how Jesus told us to pray. Not the the trinity but to ‘our’ Father, who is a singular being. This singular being is where Jesus was NOT at the time, in heaven.

 

[XFire]

Amen brother. Jesus is our mediator.
Thru the obedience of our Savior we have the chance to come home to our creator

 

[APAK]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird @NayborBear @Wrangler @XFire @APAK

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14 because the passage in John's exchange revolves around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being", YHWH God.

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language.

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

Lord Jesus is Truth (John 14:6), but you do not believe the Truth (John 14:6).

The Truth (John 14:6) says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24), yet you do not believe that Jesus is I AM!

Disagree with your entire premise that I am, or I am he, of the Greek source can be transferred into as comparable to the expression of who is YHWH of the Hebrew of Exodus, or vis a versa. This is a fatal flaw and therefore I cannot discuss this topic any further with you until you fix it. And of course if you do fix it, then your entire argument, your proof and conclusion immediately collapses in the dust anyway. This is a classic mistake made by many Trinitarians not versed in some Hebrew and common Greek. I've seen your argument made many time now and right now I do not what to correct it for you.

Hint: the Greek source that roughly translates to I am or I am he ...ego eimi is a a common expression used by all people and not just by Jesus.

 

[tigger 2]

Not only is the wording of Ex. 3:14 not "I am" but "I will be" [ehyeh] in the Hebrew OT and "the being" in the Septuagint version, but everywhere else in Moses' writings the Hebrew (ehyeh) is rendered in nearly all Bibles as "I will be."

We know that some of the Jews wanted Jesus killed for blasphemy because he admitted to being the Messiah (Christ) - see Matt 26:59-68 and footnotes for Matt 26:65 and Luke 22:71 in The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

“But powerful forces in the Jewish congregation, jealous of his popularity, incensed by his denunciation of some of them, and bitterly critical of his disregard for formalism, his willingness to violate some of the minor laws of the Jews, and his heretical claim that he was the Son of God, repudiated him, conspired to kill him, saw him crucified, and after his death, persecuted his followers.” - The Portable World Bible, Viking Press, p. 230.

It was even forbidden for others to say that Jesus was the Messiah - John 9:22. And, in fact, that was obviously why Stephen was stoned to death.

At Acts 7:55-58, Stephen looked up into heaven “and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said, ‘Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of man [synonymous with the Messiah, not God] standing at the right hand of God.’ But they [the Jews] ... cast him out of the city, and stoned him.” - RSV.

Stephen was stoned, not because he claimed to be God, nor because he claimed Jesus was God (quite the contrary, in fact, as his quoted statement clearly shows: Jesus “standing at the right hand of God”) but because he was proclaiming Jesus to be the Messiah (Christ)! See The NIV Study Bible footnotes for Acts 7:56 and Mk 8:31.

Therefore, when Jesus claimed, at John 8:58, to have lived long before his first century human existence, the Jews could have perceived him as a false prophet, or a self-proclaimed “wizard,” or, more likely, as one claiming to be the Christ or Messiah (the Son of Man) and tried to stone him because of that.

The words ego eimi formed a phrase that was in very common use by first century Christians and Jews and in New Testament scriptures. It was certainly not understood (by Jews or Christians) as declaring one’s Godhood! If it could have been understood that way, we can be sure the Jews would have never applied it to themselves (as they did so frequently)!

Notice, for example, how the former blind man (John 9:9) actually identifies himself by saying “ego eimi,” but none of the other Jews present, even for a moment, understood him to be claiming to be Jehovah!

And Jesus earlier (John 6:20) clearly identified himself by saying to his frightened disciples: ego eimi. None of his disciples considered that to mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. In fact, most trinitarian-translated Bibles render Jesus’ words identifying himself here as “It is I.” E.g., ASV; AMP; CJB; DARBY; DRA; ESV; GNT; GNV; HCSB; ISV; JB; KJV; KJ21; TLB; MEV; MLB; MOUNCE; NAB; NASB; NCV; NEB; NET; NIV; NKJV; NLV; NRSV; REB; RSV; WEB; and WE.

The Gospel writers have clearly shown Jesus applying the term ego eimi to himself and meaning “I am the Christ.” Mark 13:6 shows Jesus saying, “I am he [literally just ego eimi alone, ‘I AM’]” - NEB. The parallel account at Luke 21:8 agrees. But the other parallel account by Matthew shows what Jesus actually meant by the “absolute” ego eimi in those parallel accounts of Mark and Luke: “I am the Messiah” - Matt. 24:5 - NEB.

Jesus saying ego eimi convinced some of the Jews that he was claiming to be the Messiah (so they attempted to stone him to death on the spot). Later, Jesus was taken before the high priest and all the chief priests and questioned by them (Matt. 26:59-66; Mk 14:53-64; Luke 22:66-71).

Now if Jesus had really previously claimed to be God by saying ego eimi (or if the Jews had even thought he might have been making such a claim by saying those words), what questions would they have asked him now that they had him up before the highest Jewish court? Would they have asked “Are you the Christ?”? (Remember the Christ was not believed by the Jews to actually be God himself. - NIVSB f.n. for Mark 14:61.) Wouldn’t they have concentrated on “Do you claim to be God?”?

But what did they actually ask Jesus at this most important Jewish trial where the Jews were actually seeking to find a reason, no matter how false, to kill him? Even though they searched for any and all accusers, even false accusers (Matt. 26 59-60), to give them a reason to kill Jesus, no one accused him of claiming to be God!

“Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus in order that they might put him to death; .... And the high priest said to him, ‘I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.’” - Matt. 26:59, 63, NASB.

C’mon, be honest now! Could any honest person reasonably conclude that Jesus had claimed to be God at John 8:58 and that the deciding question at the Jews’ trial of Jesus would then be “are you the Christ?”

There is absolutely no suggestion that the Jews thought Jesus was calling himself God here! They asked no questions concerning such a thing. This is absolutely impossible if there could have been even a possibility that ego eimi at John 8:58 could mean the speaker was claiming to be God! Remember, this high court was looking for any reason to have Jesus killed!

But if his statement at John 8:58 could mean “I am the Christ,” what would these priests and chief priests have asked him? Just exactly what they did ask him: “Are you the Christ, the Son of God?”

In the same way, John near the end of his Gospel wrote that his work was written down that you may believe that Jesus is (not God, but) the Christ the son of God". - John 20:31.
Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1

 

[XFire]

Fabulous reply

 

[Keiw]

@Keiw

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5). And you repeat your evil proclamation as recorded in post #1247 in this thread
• You presented that Jesus is ho Theos in John 1:1 when you failingly asserted that I have two gods with your replacement of "the Word was with God" with "God was with God" as shown in post #1271 in this thread because the grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so the accuracte replacement is "the God was with God", and there is ho Theos for the Word, Who is Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14).
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible as shown in post #719 in this thread, in fact, The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned in the referenced post.
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are a deceptive and unreliable source.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

Neither of us is lying. people dont purposely lie about what they believe is truth about God unless big $$$ is involved. So stop making yourself look foolish by keeping on saying that.

Here are posts proving your error--because your translations are erred and teach 2 different truths, 2 different Gods.

Psalm 45:7-- You( Jesus) have loved righteousness and you hate wickedness. That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners( angels)-- Even in the OT they knew Jesus has a God like all created beings do.
Hebrews 1:3-4-- 3)He ( Jesus) is the reflection of glory, and the exact representation( image) of his( God)very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power, and after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down on the right hand of the majesty in lofty places. 4) So he has become better than the angels( his partners) to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

Do you understand english? Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of all creation-Coll 1:15--He tells you so at Proverbs 8 , he is Gods master worker. Created direct-first and last, all other things created through him.

All who understand english can clearly see that without inheriting that name he was equal to the angels.
YOUR TRANSLATIONS ARE ERROR FILLED by the religion that came out of Rome, by satans will, centuries ago--LOOK.

 

[Kermos]

I do not understand. Do we/you believe the words in red. I personally believe the scriptures over what generations of man has written about this scriptures.. Jesus himself in rev 1.1 states this is his word. So when Jesus himself in rev 3.14 states he is the first creation of God. Then I believe that. Is not jehovah (jesus) the God of the old testamwnr? Next Isaiah 45.11.
Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Again Jesus himself states he has a maker.

Where is the confusion. I do believe in the book of John. But look go at it historically. It was probably written over da 20yr period and didn't start getting written until after the other 3 gospels.

Why isn't the gospel easy and peaceful. Why isn't God's word bring hope instead of turmoil. I love the Lord. But I refuse to agree that I have to believe in man's interpretation. That God is in man's image.
I wish instead that you and me could start a ministry together and build up the kingdom of God. That way we would be closer to Eph 4.11-14 and on

Confusion about Jesus mentioned near the word "creation" in Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 abounds, but this compilation clarifies the matter scripturally and Spiritually. First, here are the passages.

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14).

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15),

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).
• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14), JESUS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD BECAUSE JESUS IS NOT CREATED WHILE JESUS PERFORMED THE CREATIVE ACT.
  • The Apostle John, the same Apostle who penned The Book of Revelation, wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2), SO JESUS WAS WITH GOD, NO MENTION OF CREATED BY GOD, BUT JESUS WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
  • "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void" (Genesis 1:1-2), SO, ACCORDING TO THIS WRITTEN SEQUENCE, FIRST, GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WITH THE SEQUENCE CONCLUDING WITH THE CREATION OF MAN (GENESIS 1:26-31) AND THE FIRST MENTION OF A BIRTH IS CAIN (GENESIS 4:1); THEREFORE, THE "FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION" (COLOSSIANS 1:15) MUST OF NECESSITY BE REFERENCE TO JESUS BEING THE FIRST OF THE RESURRECTION.
  • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8), AND PAUL ESTABLISHES THIS CONTEXT IN COLOSSIANS 1:1-14 BEING ABOUT THE INSTITUTION AND GROWTH OF THE ASSEMBLY OF GOD - THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS.
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.
  • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God, Almight Creator of Heaven and Earth.
  • Since Jesus can say one sentence with multiple meanings; therefore, in Revelation 3:14, also, we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the Beginning of the resurrection among many brothers born of God for He says to the self same assembly "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne" (Revelation 3:21). Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).
  • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the firstborn after the crucifixion among many brothers born of God. Jesus is the Redeemer among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia) in His glorious Resurrection.
• Colossians 1:15 does not state that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was created.
• Revelation 3:14 does not state that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was created.
• Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

Look at Isaiah 45 again, XFire, because you wrongly wrote "Again Jesus himself states he has a maker" based upon Isaiah 45:11.

The fuller passage illuminates who the "his" is within the phrase "and his Maker" which is in the passage "Thus says YHWH, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: 'Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons, And you shall commit to Me the work of My hands. It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands, and I ordained all their host'" (Isaiah 45:11-12).

Two crucial points:

1. the person "his" in Isaiah 45:11 is identified as "Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker-an earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth" (Isaiah 45:9), just two verses earlier in the fuller passage; therefore, the "his" is an "earthenware vessel" which indicates people in general.
   
   God emphasizes the people in general aspect for "his" in Isaiah 45:11 with "Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’" (Isaiah 45:10) in the immediately preceding verse! That is NOT Jesus asking "What are you begetting" in rebellion to His Father, but that question is posed by the "his" within the phrase "and his Maker" (Isaiah 45:11).
   
   The "him" in Isaiah 45:10 is precisely the "his" in Isaiah 45:11, and that is not Jesus!
2. behold, the Apostle John declared of Jesus the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), and Isaiah the Prophet declared the Word of God with "It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it" (Isaiah 45:12) in the same dialog continuing from Isaiah 45:11 which contains:
   • the identification of the One speaking the Word "It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it" (Isaiah 45:12) is specifically revealed to be "YHWH, the Holy One of Israel" (Isaiah 45:11).
   • phrase "and his Maker" identifies "YHWH, the Holy One of Israel" (Isaiah 45:11) as the Maker of mankind.
   
   The Maker revealed in John 1:3 is the same Maker revealed in Isaiah 45:11-12, thus Jesus the Maker is "YHWH, the Holy One of Israel, and" mankind's "Maker" (Isaiah 45:11)! Praise be to the Holy One of Israel!!!

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[XFire]

No confusion exist. Only because of man does that confusion exist. Again read how and when and what parts of revelation were complete and you will see rev 1.1 and rwv 3 14 and yes many more were never modified and adopted exactly as it is today.

Why is there a conflict with before Abraham was I AM. Again rev 3.14

Are you too like the RCC and going to kill tens of thousands cause you think people should believe the trinity.
Are the word Jesus spoke a lie?? He can be deity and still have a dad and a God.

Now why is man telling God and Jesus what they are.

KjV. Stephen saw what. You can cut it ten ways to Sunday but the word are still unchanging.


Then read extensive info on why and how thr trinity doctrine came about. Tertullian never postulated a bizarre non logical bs of the trinity
I to believe that christ is deity. Ut not everlasting to everlasting.

Again the question. When does a puppy becomes a dog.

Isaiah 45.12 is the following that Jehova is the creator and just above that he has a maker. The God of Heaven and earth.

 

[jaybird]

It seems that you are desperately trying to adulterate the Word of God to say that the people of God are God.

i accept "just as" to mean exactly that, there is no need for me to "adulterate" anything. i am not taking the phrase "just as" and teaching others it means "not as" - the exact opposite.
this is the great advantage of not believing the trinity, we do not have to rearrange scripture to make our doctrine work, scripture supports it just fine.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us

Caleb - Hebrew meaning - faithful. by the trinity logic, only people named Caleb are faithful??

(Revelation 1:8).

does not say Jesus is Almighty G-D,trins always having to insert and edit scripture, Lord says not to do that, but you guys dont seem to understand that.

i like Rev 1 1 , the Revelation of Jesus given to Him by the Most High. i guess trins teach Jesus gave this revelation to Himself? that makes a lot of sense, about as much sense as Jesus praying to Himself.

arguing with you always makes me think of Platos cave, no matter what you say some people just refuse to come out of that cave.

 

[Kermos]

You are correct, I do contradict this unreliable source. You are a Trinitarian or Jesus=God religionist I suspect.

And the scripture you cite as many do, does nothing for the understanding of a deity and divinity for Christ, and only implicitly for the Father I'm afraid. There are many other scripture passages that you could have listed that show the opposition of you point that the Father only is the DIETY and Christ is not; he SHARES in the Father's divinity. And of course the Father is the source of divinity and the true Deity as 1C dictates.

This subject does draw attention to the minority thought and report of this subject. To one who is content, living over the other side of the fence and the street, away from the zealous mob on the other side.

You may be literally at least the 1000th person I've has to report to, and explain why I'm standing on the other side of the street and not wearing the same mouthpiece and wearing the same uniform as the popular majority, and you are one of them. Well I'm still here to explain it all as you believe you have no explaining to do but to fire away with a shotgun burst of scripture that you have no idea what it all means.

You publicly admit that you deny Christian Apostolic testimony such as:

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of the God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "God with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us the children of God (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

You compound your wicked denial of Christian Apostolic testimony by your calling Peter, Paul, John, Matthew, and Thomas unreliable sources!

Christians do not deny Apostolic testimony!

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[ChristisGod]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird @NayborBear @Wrangler @XFire @APAK

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14 because the passage in John's exchange revolves around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being", YHWH God.

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language.

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

Lord Jesus is Truth (John 14:6), but you do not believe the Truth (John 14:6).

The Truth (John 14:6) says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24), yet you do not believe that Jesus is I AM!

ditto

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty !


These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the GNT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the GNT but always to Jesus.


Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."



We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty



Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:



We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that lives, was dead but is alive forevermore is Christ.



Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.



Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."



We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.


The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man),

Daniel 7:13-14
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.


Matthew 24:30-31
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!


Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.


Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

The same First and the Last in Isaiah is the same First and the Last in Revelations. He is YHWH, the Son- Jesus Christ who is the One Lord.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty !


These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God.

No. Prophets speak for God. It does not make them God. What makes it clear in Revelations that Jesus is NOT God is who have the revelation to Jesus was God.

 

[ChristisGod]

No. Prophets speak for God. It does not make them God. What makes it clear in Revelations that Jesus is NOT God is who have the revelation to Jesus was God.

Except He is called God/Theos/ YHWH just like the Father numerous times in both Testaments

 

[Wrangler]

Except He is called God/Theos/ YHWH just like the Father numerous times in both Testaments

No, not one time is Jesus called God, who alone is YHWH, the Father of all.

If Jesus were God, why would he say he has a God and his God is the only true God?

 

[ChristisGod]

No, not one time is Jesus called God, who alone is YHWH, the Father of all.

If Jesus were God, why would he say he has a God and his God is the only true God?

Who is Peter calling God below ?

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

 

[Wrangler]

Who is Peter calling God below ?

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Not an answer to my question. Typical.

He is referring to two beings. One is our God and the other is his Anointed Servant.

 

[ChristisGod]

Not an answer to my question. Typical.

He is referring to two beings. One is our God and the other is his Anointed Servant.

False as Peter is referring to the same person as demonstrated below. The reality is you cannot reads the Bible with an open mind but only through a bias that Jesus is not God. That is eisegesis not exegesis. You are reading your own bias into Gods word- EISEGESIS.

Below is called Exegesis- not reading ones ideas into the Bible but letting the Bible determine my thoughts , ideas, doctrines, truth etc......

2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus) [Granville/Sharp's]. Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior/ Lord and Savior in Peters 2nd Epistle. 2 Peter 2:20 and 2 Peter 3:18 also have the same Greek construction as 1:1 and 1:11.

But for those interested in the Greek here is the comparison of 1:1 and 1:11.

τοῦ is the same.
ἡμῶν is the same.
καὶ is the same.
Σωτῆρος is the same.
Ἰησοῦ is the same.
Χριστοῦ· is the same.

And all in the same order.

The only difference is the noun "Θεοῦ" in v.1, while "Κυρίου" is in v.11.

So if he wants to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then he has to deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise he's being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive one has an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Wrangler]

False as Peter is referring to the same person as demonstrated below.

You are peddling the falsehood. Every Epistle's prologue recognizes God the Father and a separate being, Jesus, including Peter.

May grace and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus, the Anointed One, surround you. First, I thank my God through Jesus the Anointed for all of you. Romans 1:7-8

I pray that God our Father and the Lord Jesus, the Anointed One, will shower you with grace and peace. 1 Cor 1:3

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
2 Corinthians 1:2

I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead.
Galatians 1:1

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Ephesians 1:2

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philippians 1:2

May God our Father give you grace and peace. Colossians 1:2

We are writing to the church in Thessalonica, to you who belong to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 & 2 Thessalonians 1:1

May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord give you grace, mercy, and peace.1 & 2 Timothy 1:2

May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior give you grace and peace.
Titus 1:4

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philemon 1:3

For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus: “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.” God also said, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son. Hebrews 1:5

Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring. James 1:27

God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. 1 Peter 1:2

when he received honor and glory from God the Father. 2 Peter 1:17

We proclaim ... our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:3 (NOTE: Again no reference to the HS)

Grace, mercy, and peace, which come from God the Father. 2 John 1:3

He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. Revelation 1:6