A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Wrangler]

Try reading and believing Gods word

God's word says Jesus died. Do you deny this?

God's word says that God does not change. Do you deny this?

Death is the biggest change for a life form.

 

[ChristisGod]

God's word says Jesus died. Do you deny this?

God's word says that God does not change. Do you deny this?

Death is the biggest change for a life form.

The body died, not the spirit/soul

 

[Rich R]

The body died, not the spirit/soul

That's what Plato thought. It's also what the devil told eve in Gen 3:4. Neither one are good sources for truth.

 

[Wrangler]

The body died, not the spirit/soul

Trinitarians parse what Scripture does not. Dead is dead, fully dead, completely dead.

There is not one single verse in Scripture that suggests that Jesus only partly died.

 

[Kermos]

Its to bad you wont believe truth. Jesus tells you and you outright refuse to believe him-John 20:17, Rev 3:12

You will find out the religion that came out of Rome never had Jesus, satan originated it. Their own translating-your translations prove they are false religion, yet you wont believe they mistranslated. Only because you outright refuse to believe Jesus over them--Who do you serve? John 20:17, Rev 3:12, John 17:3- BELIEVE JESUS all his real followers do.

@Keiw

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5). And you repeat your evil proclamation as recorded in post #1247 in this thread
• You presented that Jesus is ho Theos in John 1:1 when you failingly asserted that I have two gods with your replacement of "the Word was with God" with "God was with God" as shown in post #1271 in this thread because the grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so the accuracte replacement is "the God was with God", and there is ho Theos for the Word, Who is Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14).
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• People like you are willingly ignorant of the creation (2 Peter 3:5) as shown in post #1445 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure deliberately deceives.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible as shown in post #719 in this thread, in fact, The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned in the referenced post.
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are a dangerously unreliable source.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[ChristisGod]

That's what Plato thought. It's also what the devil told eve in Gen 3:4. Neither one are good sources for truth.

Jesus told the thief after He was to die that today you will be with Ne in paradise.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Rich R]

Jesus told the thief after He was to die that today you will be with Me in paradise.

hope this helps !!!

You may know that commas were not found in the original God breathed word. Translators added them for our convenience and they usually do just that. However none of them were actually God's inspiration. I'm sure the translators were sincere, but sincerity is no guarantee for accuracy.

Here's the ERV version:

Luke 23:43,

And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
​

Notice the comma after the word "thee." What if that comma were instead put after "To day?"

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.​

See the difference? One says that the thief would be with Jesus in paradise that very day. The other said Jesus was telling the thief that day, that one day in the future, that thief would be in paradise. That future day is covered in the Revelation 20 where the final judgment will occur.

The placing of the comma in the first version agrees with the lie Satan told Eve in Gen 3:4, where he said people don't really die. The second one agrees with God in Gen 2:17, where He said they most certainly would die.

The eternal soul is a Babylonian, Egyptian, and Greek idea. It is not found in the scriptures.

There is no shortage of verses that tell us how bad the grave is. It's certainly not paradise! That day, according to Luke Jesus went to the grave, not paradise, and that's what happened that day to the thief. Huge difference! Neither Jesus nor the thief went to paradise. They would get there one day in the future, but not that day.

Isa 38:18,

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can [not] celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
​

Eccl 9:10,

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
​

Unlike the devil's lie in Genesis 3, when people die they are actually dead. We all know what dead means, and it's not a party in paradise. If you've ever seen a dead body, I'm sure you'll agree that doesn't look like he or she is dancing an Irish jig! Dead people are dead and they will stay that way until God raises them up from the dead. If they weren't really dead, why would God have to raise them up as it clearly says He will in Revelation?

 

[DavidB]

You may know that commas were not found in the original God breathed word. Translators added them for our convenience and they usually do just that. However none of them were actually God's inspiration. I'm sure the translators were sincere, but sincerity is no guarantee for accuracy.

Here's the ERV version:

Luke 23:43,

And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
​

Notice the comma after the word "thee." What if that comma were instead put after "To day?"

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.​

See the difference? One says that the thief would be with Jesus in paradise that very day. The other said Jesus was telling the thief that day, that one day in the future, that thief would be in paradise. That future day is covered in the Revelation 20 where the final judgment will occur.

The placing of the comma in the first version agrees with the lie Satan told Eve in Gen 3:4, where he said people don't really die. The second one agrees with God in Gen 2:17, where He said they most certainly would die.

The eternal soul is a Babylonian, Egyptian, and Greek idea. It is not found in the scriptures.

There is no shortage of verses that tell us how bad the grave is. It's certainly not paradise! That day, according to Luke Jesus went to the grave, not paradise, and that's what happened that day to the thief. Huge difference! Neither Jesus nor the thief went to paradise. They would get there one day in the future, but not that day.

Isa 38:18,

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can [not] celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
​

Eccl 9:10,

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
​

Unlike the devil's lie in Genesis 3, when people die they are actually dead. We all know what dead means, and it's not a party in paradise. If you've ever seen a dead body, I'm sure you'll agree that doesn't look like he or she is dancing an Irish jig! Dead people are dead and they will stay that way until God raises them up from the dead. If they weren't really dead, why would God have to raise them up as it clearly says He will in Revelation?

Like this?
“And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”
New World Translation.

 

[Rich R]

Like this?
“And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”
New World Translation.

I should have used that version in my post! Thanks. :)

 

[Keiw]

@Keiw

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5). And you repeat your evil proclamation as recorded in post #1247 in this thread
• You presented that Jesus is ho Theos in John 1:1 when you failingly asserted that I have two gods with your replacement of "the Word was with God" with "God was with God" as shown in post #1271 in this thread because the grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so the accuracte replacement is "the God was with God", and there is ho Theos for the Word, Who is Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14).
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• People like you are willingly ignorant of the creation (2 Peter 3:5) as shown in post #1445 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure deliberately deceives.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible as shown in post #719 in this thread, in fact, The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned in the referenced post.
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are a dangerously unreliable source.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

Jesus didnt lie. Your error filled translations contradict his truth.

 

[Rich R]

The body died, not the spirit/soul

The thing about death is that to the person who is dead, there is no consciousness. There is no pain, anxiety, fear, or any other vexation. It's like going to sleep at night. We have no consciousness there either. We don't have an inkling of what happened while asleep. If we had a sore back before going to bed, it's gone while sleeping.

Isa 38:18,

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can [not] celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
​

Eccl 9:5,

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.​

One day, when Jesus returns, all Christians will be raised from the dead, get new bodies just like the one Jesus had when he rose from the dead. Then we will be taken up into the air to meet Jesus and be with him from that day on. Here's the actual scripture on all of this. You shouldn't believe me just because I said it. Let the scriptures speak for themselves.

1 Thess 4:13-18,

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
​

These are the words that should comfort us, not those of Plato or any other man made philosophies.

Are we not told to have no fear of death? Yes, we are. But the freedom from fear can not come from man. True freedom from fear can only be had by believing, that is acting, on that which God says. God assured us we would in no wise suffer in the grave while awaiting that great and glorious day of Jesus' return as outlined in this section of Thessalonians.

1 Cor 15:52-54,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
​

Read the whole chapter. The context is about Jesus' return and finalizing God's masterful plan for Christians.There's more in Pauls's epistles that tell about the future for all Christians. In Revelation there are 2 more resurrections. One for all the Jews who ever lived and were righteous before God. They will enjoy a 1,000 reign of Jesus who will rule the world much better than our own leaders! After the 1,000 years all the people who were not raised before will get up and be judged. They will be judged fairly and with a certain amount of mercy as God will consider their hearts and motivations in how they lived. The native in the Amazon who has not heard of Jesus will obviously not rise with the Christians to meet Jesus in the air, but their case will be heard. If they are decent folks, not murderers, rapers, etc, they will probably be admitted to paradise. If not, they will be thrown into a lake of fire where what you expect to happen most certainly will, the will die in a micro-second. It is called the "second death" in Rev 21:8. That death will be just like the first. No consciousness. Certainly no eternal screaming in horror. Dead people don't scream!

It's a fascinating subject in the scriptures, but the bottom line is for Christians is that we truly need have no fear of death. And the truth also gives us the assurance that all of our loved ones will be raised with new bodies. That's the comfort we ought to have.

 

[Grailhunter]

Well reading through this thread it appears that Christians of different beliefs are confronting heresy. Yeshua is a God for sure.
For those that want to be informed with all the scriptures and the truth you can refence Grailhunter's Corner. If nothing else you will have all the scriptures that pertain to the relevant topic.

Grailhunter’s Corner

I believe in the Trinity, just not the one God formula. Trinity---tri-unity...no triune.

Yahweh, God the Father, the Father of God the Son, God supreme, Creator of heaven and earth
Yeshua, God the Son, Messiah and Savior of humanity. Who called Yahweh His Father and His God.
The Holy Spirit, the unnamed God, same in substance as God the Father and God the Son. Spiritual guide, strengthener, nourisher, and filler of the Christian spirit, the Christian conscience.

They are all full fledged Gods that are united in a Godhead.

 

[Kermos]

Again the missing 3rd person, which shows the passion for the trinity is the man-is-god thesis.

Forgive me if I don’t take your word on the equality between a man and his Creator, God, when Jesus himself said God is greater, knows more, tells him everything to say and everything to do.

You reject the Word of God Who says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) along with you not receiving Jesus ' sayings such as Jesus "calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18), yet these sayings of Jesus declare that Jesus is God because Jesus being equal with God is the same as Jesus is God.

The Holy Spirit is God (John 16:7-14, Acts 5:3-4).

We have the person of the Father being God.

We have the person of the Jesus being God.

We have the person of the Holy Spirit being God.

The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are together the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Because you reject Jesus and you do not receive Jesus ' sayings, the the following sayings of Jesus applies to you "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Keiw]

The thing about death is that to the person who is dead, there is no consciousness. There is no pain, anxiety, fear, or any other vexation. It's like going to sleep at night. We have no consciousness there either. We don't have an inkling of what happened while asleep. If we had a sore back before going to bed, it's gone while sleeping.

Isa 38:18,

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can [not] celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
​

Eccl 9:5,

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.​

One day, when Jesus returns, all Christians will be raised from the dead, get new bodies just like the one Jesus had when he rose from the dead. Then we will be taken up into the air to meet Jesus and be with him from that day on. Here's the actual scripture on all of this. You shouldn't believe me just because I said it. Let the scriptures speak for themselves.

1 Thess 4:13-18,

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
​

These are the words that should comfort us, not those of Plato or any other man made philosophies.

Are we not told to have no fear of death? Yes, we are. But the freedom from fear can not come from man. True freedom from fear can only be had by believing, that is acting, on that which God says. God assured us we would in no wise suffer in the grave while awaiting that great and glorious day of Jesus' return as outlined in this section of Thessalonians.

1 Cor 15:52-54,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
​

Read the whole chapter. The context is about Jesus' return and finalizing God's masterful plan for Christians.There's more in Pauls's epistles that tell about the future for all Christians. In Revelation there are 2 more resurrections. One for all the Jews who ever lived and were righteous before God. They will enjoy a 1,000 reign of Jesus who will rule the world much better than our own leaders! After the 1,000 years all the people who were not raised before will get up and be judged. They will be judged fairly and with a certain amount of mercy as God will consider their hearts and motivations in how they lived. The native in the Amazon who has not heard of Jesus will obviously not rise with the Christians to meet Jesus in the air, but their case will be heard. If they are decent folks, not murderers, rapers, etc, they will probably be admitted to paradise. If not, they will be thrown into a lake of fire where what you expect to happen most certainly will, the will die in a micro-second. It is called the "second death" in Rev 21:8. That death will be just like the first. No consciousness. Certainly no eternal screaming in horror. Dead people don't scream!

It's a fascinating subject in the scriptures, but the bottom line is for Christians is that we truly need have no fear of death. And the truth also gives us the assurance that all of our loved ones will be raised with new bodies. That's the comfort we ought to have.

Prov 2:21-22-- The righteous will remain on the earth, Psalm 37:29--The righteous themselves will possess the earth and reside forever upon it. They will not go to heaven.
Only the little flock( Luke 12:32)are promised heaven= Rev 14:3= 144,000 to rule as kings and priests alongside Jesus on thrones-Rev 1:6--Rev 20:4-6-- This is the bride of Christ.

 

[Kermos]

Yes, in John 8:58, Jesus very simply said that he was more important (comes before, as in rank) than Abraham. The local expression and then from Greek in to English makes it sound so awkward and confusing. Staying with the context though works it all out in the end.

And it really ticked off the Pharisees to no end. As their Father was Abraham and Jesus' Father was God....I can see why they wanted him gone..

You can lie to yourself, but you cannot lie to God.

The Word of God says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), so Jesus says Jesus exists before Abraham.

Your deceive with your simplistic statement "Jesus very simply said that he was more important (comes before, as in rank) than Abraham".

In effect, you adulterate the Word of God into the word of APAK "Truly, truly, I say to you, I simply rank higher than Abraham", so your thoughts are evil leading you to not know God.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

Case in point.



Indisputably? Paul is referring to 2 beings.
1. Our Savior Christ, named Yeshua.

and

wait for it

2. our great God, named YHWH.

Titus 2:13 truthfully exegeted with Greek grammar rules applied maintains consistent Apostolic testimony that the Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the Great God".

Here is the English-Greek full word-for-word of Titus 2:13:

awaiting-προσδεχόμενοι the-τὴν blessed-μακαρίαν hope-ἐλπίδα and-καὶ appearing-ἐπιφάνειαν the-τῆς glory-δόξης the-τοῦ great-μεγάλου God-Θεοῦ and-καὶ Savior-Σωτῆρος us-ἡμῶν Christ-Χριστοῦ Jesus-Ἰησοῦ

All of "God", "Savior", "Christ", and "Jesus" are genitive, singular, and masculine thus they are to be taken together as a single cohesive unit according to Greek grammar rules, and this unit has the genitive singular adjectives "glory" and "great" pointing at this unit for all the genitive singular words are inextricably tied together according to Greek grammar rules.

The logical "and" in the phrase "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13) is linguistically tied to Jesus Christ because the word "hope", which is singular, as well as the word "glory", which is singular, in the phrase "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of" (Titus 2:13); therefore, Paul singularly refers to "our great God" and "Savior" and "Christ Jesus" as One singular.

See that linguistically, "hope" and "glory" would need to be plural in order for "our great God" and "Savior" and "Christ Jesus" to be disassociated in the evil manner which you think applies.

THE APOSTLE PAUL INDISPUTABLY CALLS JESUS "THE GREAT GOD" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) WITH "LOOKING FOR THE BLESSED HOPE AND THE APPEARING OF THE GLORY OF THE GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR OF US, CHRIST JESUS" (TITUS 2:13).

The Greek grammar rules make it utterly clear in order to avoid confusion, yet you have managed to confuse yourself unto eternal punishment according to your current state. You confuse Paul's words while you neglect the greater Apostolic testimony.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Rich R]

Titus 2:13 truthfully exegeted with Greek grammar rules applied maintains consistent Apostolic testimony that the Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the Great God".

Here is the English-Greek full word-for-word of Titus 2:13:

awaiting-προσδεχόμενοι the-τὴν blessed-μακαρίαν hope-ἐλπίδα and-καὶ appearing-ἐπιφάνειαν the-τῆς glory-δόξης the-τοῦ great-μεγάλου God-Θεοῦ and-καὶ Savior-Σωτῆρος us-ἡμῶν Christ-Χριστοῦ Jesus-Ἰησοῦ

All of "God", "Savior", "Christ", and "Jesus" are genitive, singular, and masculine thus they are to be taken together as a single cohesive unit according to Greek grammar rules, and this unit has the genitive singular adjectives "glory" and "great" pointing at this unit for all the genitive singular words are inextricably tied together according to Greek grammar rules.

The logical "and" in the phrase "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13) is linguistically tied to Jesus Christ because the word "hope", which is singular, as well as the word "glory", which is singular, in the phrase "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of" (Titus 2:13); therefore, Paul singularly refers to "our great God" and "Savior" and "Christ Jesus" as One singular.

See that linguistically, "hope" and "glory" would need to be plural in order for "our great God" and "Savior" and "Christ Jesus" to be disassociated in the evil manner which you think applies.

THE APOSTLE PAUL INDISPUTABLY CALLS JESUS "THE GREAT GOD" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) WITH "LOOKING FOR THE BLESSED HOPE AND THE APPEARING OF THE GLORY OF THE GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR OF US, CHRIST JESUS" (TITUS 2:13).

The Greek grammar rules make it utterly clear in order to avoid confusion, yet you have managed to confuse yourself unto eternal punishment according to your current state. You confuse Paul's words while you neglect the greater Apostolic testimony.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

There is no real agreement among scholars. Trinitarian scholars included, on how this verse should be translated. There are many translations that indicate we are waiting for the return of Jesus in order to show the glory (manifested power) of God. Jesus is the glory of God, but that doesn't make Him to be God.

One thing is certain though, it must agree with all other verses and if translated to say that Jesus is God, we have an immediate problem with 1 Cor 8:6 which states in clear terms that only the Father is God. It would also raise the problem of who is God's God, since Jesus is said to have a God many times.

Eph 1:3,

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:​

YHWH has neither a God nor a Father. Jesus does. He is called the son of God about 35 times. You can't find him being called God the Son in the scriptures. You need look at the Athenasian Creed and the other man made creeds to find such a moniker.

Why bring up Emmanuel? It's no clear statement that Jesus is God. It's an inference at best, and not a very good one at that. Emmanuel was a name that applied to Jesus. God's name is not Emmanuel. God's name is YHWH. Besides. Joseph and Mary didn't call him Emmanuel. The ancient Jews looked at names in a much different way than we do. That's an area of research that will yield much benefit.

It's amazing how so many crystal clear verses can be overlooked while making a few unclear verses validate one's preconceived idea. Unlike the more than half dozen tines Jesus is clearly called a man (Rom 5:15, Acts 2:22, Acts 17:31, 1 Tim 2:5, John 4:29, John 8:40, and 1 Cor 15:22), there is not one single as clear verse that calls Jesus a God. In fact, the scriptures declare explicitly that God is NOT a man (HOs 11:9 and Num 23:19).

 

[GRACE ambassador]

There is no real agreement among scholars. 1 Cor 8:6; Eph 1:3; Rom 5:15, Acts 2:22,
Acts 17:31, 1 Tim 2:5, Joh 4:29, Joh 8:40 and 1 Cor 15:22; HOs 11:9 and Num 23:19

So, you are Eternally willing to take the Odds of (500 to 11) almost
50 to 1! that you are Correct, correct?

500 Plain And Clear Passages JESUS CHRIST Is Almighty God!

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Rich R]

So, you are Eternally willing to take the Odds of (500 to 11) almost
50 to 1! that you are Correct, correct?

500 Plain And Clear Passages JESUS CHRIST Is Almighty God!

GRACE And Peace...

Let's just take the first of 500 verses and see if they really say Jesus is God.

Col 1:15,

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
​

Jesus is the image of God. OK. My wife was looking in the mirror as I stood behind her. I looked in the mirror and stared into her beautiful eyes. I saw her smile in the mirror. She walked away. As I kept staring at the mirror I couldn't help but notice I no longer say her eyes or her smile. They were gone. Did my wife vanish along with her image? No, because I saw the real her later that day. Apparently the image of something is not the thing itself. That's just comes from basic word definition:

Image: An imitation, representation, or similitude of any person,
thing, or act, sculptured, drawn, painted, or otherwise
made perceptible to the sight; a visible presentation; a
copy; a likeness; an effigy; a picture; a semblance.
[1913 Webster]

Then there's the truth that all Christians are turning into the image of God.

2 Cor 3:18,

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.
​

I think you would agree that we are not actually becoming the Lord. All in all, I'd say Col 1:15 is not a good proof verse for Jesus being God.

I'll do the second one in the list as well:

Luke 1:35,

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
​

Luke called Jesus the Son of God, not God the Son. In what world is a son also his own father?

I'll do one more, the third one in the list.

2 Cor 4:6,

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
​

When read as written, that says nothing whatsoever about Jesus being God. It says we can learn about the glory of God by looking towards Jesus. If that makes Jesus God, then we need to include Moses in the list of gods.

2Cor 3:7,

But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:
​

Personally, I'm going to go with neither Moses nor Jesus being YHWH.

What the heck; I'll do the forth one in the list also.

Phil 2:6,

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
​

Let me just say the it doesn't say, "Who, being God..." It is also worth noting that, whatever this verse says, we should think the same about ourselves.

Phil 2:5,

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
​

Look at the context. It is all about being of service to others despite our high position as sons of God. Jesus was granted power and authority from God. On the surface it raises the question; how can one part of God granting something else to another part? Remember when Jesus was talking to some of his disciples after his resurrection and they didn't recognize him? Why? Because he changed his "form" as it says in Mark 16:12. Despite his form, his outward appearance, Jesus was still Jesus. An outward appearance does not define the fundamental nature of sometihng.

Form:. The shape and structure of anything, as distinguished from
the material of which it is composed; particular
disposition or arrangement of matter, giving it
individuality or distinctive character; configuration;
figure; external appearance.
[1913 Webster]

Sorry, but like the image of something, being in the form of something does not make it the thing itself.

Also verse 7 is interesting.

Phil 2:7,

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
​

So we've now made God into an actual servant?

I've answered to four of the verses that supposedly say Jesus is God. I quoted several that would make that quite impossible. Perhaps you'd care to address just one of them.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

How does that not say only the Father is God, thus precluding His son from being God?

 

[Kermos]

Jesus didnt lie. Your error filled translations contradict his truth.

You LIE, and you are not Jesus Christ.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5). And you repeat your evil proclamation as recorded in post #1247 in this thread
• You presented that Jesus is ho Theos in John 1:1 when you failingly asserted that I have two gods with your replacement of "the Word was with God" with "God was with God" as shown in post #1271 in this thread because the grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so the accuracte replacement is "the God was with God", and there is ho Theos for the Word, Who is Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14).
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• People like you are willingly ignorant of the creation (2 Peter 3:5) as shown in post #1445 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure deliberately deceives.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible as shown in post #719 in this thread, in fact, The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned in the referenced post.
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are an unreliable source.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).