A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Rich R]

Or as more modern translations than the KJV translate it (e.g. WEB):

(8) All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been killed.​

It's the names of people that has been written "from the foundation of the world", not that the Lamb has been slain from the foundation of the world. This is confrirmed by Revelation 17:8 (KJV):

(8) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.​

You are right about that! Never saw that before. It seems about half go one way and the other half goes the other way.

But it seems strange that the names of those who would not be saved were doomed from the beginning. Why would God get angry at anyone who had no chance of doing the right thing? That's getting into Calvanistic territory. It seems to make more sense that God knew in His foreknowledge that He'd eventually raise up the lamb who was to be killed. He certainly knew He'd accomplish that in the end, but He didn't know exactly who would and who would not obey Him. Only time could tell Him that. He didn't even know if Abraham would trust Him until the knife was about to get plunged into Isaac (Gen 22:12). Nor did He know if Israel would obey Him or not. He wasn't always sure. There are many places where God did something to see if Israel would obey or not.

Anyway, I'll work on Rev 13:8 some more. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I don't understand why it so complicated to see that one person doing anything through another makes them two separate people.

I believe There Is A Father And His SON, no problem at all.

Of course you are free to stick with the trinity. Speaking frankly I must say that there are many Trinitarians that are better examples of God's love than myself (you may well be one)

Thanks appreciate it. I Certainly hope my Judgment By God,
[ The LORD JESUS CHRIST ] is "rewards for 'faith In Him, which
worketh By love'!" According to His "Every Word Of Profitable
[And Sound] Doctrine!" Amen?

Precious friend, Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

GRACE And Peace... The apostle of GRACE (2 Min With The BIBLE)

FULL study:
Paul, The apostle Of GRACE (Part I)
Paul, The apostle Of GRACE (Part II)

 

[tigger 2]

There is good evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

If we look at some trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering by some.

Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

Another acclaimed scholar of trinitarian Christendom has translated this verse similarly and made some interesting comments. Trinitarian Dr. William Barclay.

Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

Famed trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” or “God is thy throne” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - p. 339.

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the famous trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”

(Continued next with an examination of Ps. 45:6)

 

[tigger 2]

Heb. 1:8 translated from Ps. 45:6

Psalm 45 is celebrating an Israelite king’s marriage, and the psalmist applies the words of Ps. 45:6, 7 literally to an ancient Israelite king. In fact, the trinitarian New American Standard Bible (NASB), Reference Edition, explains in a footnote for Ps. 45:1, “Probably refers to Solomon as a type of Christ.”

So, according to this trinitarian Bible, the words of Ps. 45:6, although figuratively referring to Jesus, were literally applied to an ancient Israelite king (probably King Solomon, it says).
So if Ps. 45:6 is properly translated, “your throne, O God ...” then that ancient Israelite King (Solomon?) was also literally called “O God” (or “O god”?). In fact, the highly trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph Edition, 1970, explains in a footnote for this verse:

“The Hebrew king was called ... ‘God,’ not in the polytheistic sense common among the ancient
pagans, but as meaning ‘godlike’ or ‘taking the place of God’.”

The trinitarian Easy-to-read-Version also says in a footnote for this passage:

“God .... here the writer might be using the word ‘God’ as a title for the king.” (Cf. NIV Study Bible f.n. for Pss. 45:6 and 82:1, 6.)

If we can find a few trinitarian-translated Bibles which translate Ps. 45:6 in a trinitarian way, we really shouldn't accept it (also Heb. 1:8) as actual trinity evidence.

The RSV renders it as “Your Divine throne” and a footnote provides this alternate reading: “Or ‘your throne is a throne of God.’”

The NEB says: “Your throne is like God’s throne.”

The Holy Scriptures (JPS version) says: “Thy throne given of God.”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) says: “God is your throne.”

The Good News Bible (GNB), a very trinitarian paraphrase Bible, renders it: “The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever.”

The REB has: “God has enthroned you for all eternity.”

And the NJB gives us: “your throne is from God.”

We also see the following statement by respected trinitarian scholars in a footnote for this passage:
“45:6 O God. Possibly the king’s throne is called God’s throne because he is God’s appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as ‘god.’” - Ps. 45:6 f.n. in the NIV Study Bible.

In addition to the above renderings by many respected translators (most of whom are trinitarian), we have the statement by perhaps the greatest scholar of Biblical Hebrew of all time, H. F. W. Gesenius. In his famous and highly respected Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Gesenius renders Ps. 45:6, “thy throne shall be a divine throne.”

 

[keithr]

"...through whom also he made he worlds."

"He" refers to God. "Whom" refers to Jesus. The word "through" is Greek "dia" and it means through or by. Agency is a good way to look at "dia."

When and actor goes THROUGH (Greek dia) their agent to get a contract, does the agent become the actor?

I don't understand why it so complicated to see that one person doing anything through another makes them two separate people.

I don't know why you seem to think that I am arguing that Jesus was God - I am not! Jesus is not God. I agree that Jesus is a completely separate being from God. He is God's only begotten Son.

Heb 1:2,

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;​

Yes, God spoke to us through His son. Prior to that He spoke through the fathers and prophets (verse 1). Didn't make them God, so why would it make Jesus God?

It doesn't! My posts were about Jesus existing as a spirit being before he was made human. The point is that if Jesus created the worlds (universe) then he must have existed for thousands of years before God changed his nature from spirit to human being.

Of course you are free to stick with the trinity.

I don't believe in the Trinity!

 

[keithr]

But it seems strange that the names of those who would not be saved were doomed from the beginning.

I guess God is very good at predicting the future!

 

[Rich R]

I don't know why you seem to think that I am arguing that Jesus was God - I am not! Jesus is not God. I agree that Jesus is a completely separate being from God. He is God's only begotten Son.


It doesn't! My posts were about Jesus existing as a spirit being before he was made human. The point is that if Jesus created the worlds (universe) then he must have existed for thousands of years before God changed his nature from spirit to human being.


I don't believe in the Trinity!

I get it now. Little slow, but I got it. The only difference between our belief is the pre-existance of Jesus. I think it was in God's mind and yo think it was literal. I think I have it right now?

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker: Hebrews 13:8, that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever," is yet another proof that Jesus is God, because it's a clear reference to Malachi 3:6, were God says, "I, the LORD, do not change."
You don’t consider death a change?

LOL! In phase of life, yes, but not in who the Person is. He is the Father's Word, Who from the beginning was with God, and from the beginning was God, through Whom all things were made, Who shined ~ and shines ~ in the darkness, and the darkness has not ~ and will not ~ overcome it. (John 1).

In Scripture only the Father is God.

Only the Father is God the Father, the first Person of the one true God, the triune Jehovah, yes. The other Two, Jesus, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, both proceed from the Father. Even humanly speaking, one's word and breath, though they go out, from the sender, cannot be separated from that person. So it is with the Father. And this is exactly what John is saying in John 1:1.

...you are adding words to Scripture to fit your doctrine...

Not at all. In anything, there are at least a few ways to say the same thing.

...it doesn’t say anything about in his humanity AS IF Jesus had any other nature - when God gave glory to Jesus.

That doesn't make it untrue. As Paul says in Philippians 2, Christ Jesus, was most assuredly in the form of (the Greek morphe'... was of the same essence as) God, but took the form of (again, the Greek morphe'... was the of the same essence as) a servant, being born in the likeness of men. Again, though we can't fully wrap out minds around that, we can fully understand the concept and readily accept it as true.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Wrangler]

LOL! In phase of life, yes, but not in who the Person is. He is the Father's Word

Ov vey. The person of Jesus died, which is a mighty big change.

Trinitarians make too much of Deut 18:15-18, as all prophets speak God's words. God himself is able to speak for himself and does not require prophets, like Jesus, to speak on his behalf.

Obviously, this word comment is a distraction from the fact that Jesus is not God and the current focus is the logic that the death of Jesus contradicts the known property of God, namely him being eternally unchanging.

 

[Wrangler]

Only the Father is God the Father, the first Person of the one true God, the triune Jehovah, yes.

Not in Scripture. See Mark 7:13.

 

[Wrangler]

That doesn't make it untrue.

It makes it unbiblical.

 

[PinSeeker]

Ov vey. The person of Jesus died, which is a mighty big change.

Not in who He was and is and always will be.

Trinitarians make too much of Deut 18:15-18, as all prophets speak God's words. God himself is able to speak for himself and does not require prophets, like Jesus, to speak on his behalf.

God speaks in a variety of ways, but in general, as the writer of Hebrews says, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, Whom He appointed the Heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world."

Obviously, this word comment is a distraction from the fact that Jesus is not God.

No, but an affirmation that He is Immanuel, God with us.

the current focus is the logic that the death of Jesus contradicts the known property of God, namely him being eternally unchanging.

This is the "distraction."

Not in Scripture.

Ah, but it is. We cannot deny that Jesus, even though He certainly physically died on the cross, never changed in who He was/is and never will. Hebrews 13:8 explicitly says this, and it is a direct reference to God's unchanging nature, also made explicit, as said previously, in His own words through Malachi in Malachi 3:6.

See Mark 7:13.

Hm. Well, thanks be to God, nothing can make His Word void. As Peter (1 Peter 1:24-25) says, quoting Isaiah (Isaiah 40:8), "All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever."

It makes it unbiblical.

Yes, not believing Jesus is God is clearly abiblical.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Wrangler]

He wasn't always sure.

Agreed. The other day I was lead to read where God told Moses the 2 miracles he taught him would convince Pharaoh that Moses was sent by God. But the very next verse God says, in case that does not work, pour water out to make blood out of the rivers. Ex 4.

 

[Wrangler]

No, but an affirmation that He is Immanuel, God with us.

It's so silly to say a man named Jesus is named Immanuel.

Beyond that, obviously, "God with us" does not literally mean the person called Immanuel is God incarnate unless all Immanuel's are also God incarnate.

The trinitarian house of cards tumbles so easily.

 

[PinSeeker]

Why would God get angry at anyone who had no chance of doing the right thing? That's getting into Calvanistic territory.

Unless, he or she, because of who he or she was ~ because of his or her being in Adam ~ was already guilty? Now, that's getting into Biblical territory, regardless who taught or teaches it.

It seems to make more sense that God knew in His foreknowledge that He'd eventually raise up the lamb who was to be killed. He certainly knew He'd accomplish that in the end, but He didn't know exactly who would and who would not obey Him.

God's foreknowledge is not a mere cognitive ("knowing beforehand") action. Paul says in Romans 8:29 "those whom God foreknew." But in the mere cognitive sense, God knows everybody and everything beforehand ~ long before it actually happens. But Paul is talking about a specific group of people here, strongly inferring that there are at least some that God did not foreknow. So God's foreknowledge is different than woodenly knowing beforehand. The verb "to know," in both the Hebrew of the Old Testament and the Greek of the New Testament is virtually synonymous with "to love." And this is Paul's context in Romans 8-11, and it fits hand-in-glove with what John says later, that "we (Christians) love because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

Grace and peace to you, Rich. And all, of course.

 

[Rich R]

Agreed. The other day I was lead to read where God told Moses the 2 miracles he taught him would convince Pharaoh that Moses was sent by God. But the very next verse God says, in case that does not work, pour water out to make blood out of the rivers. Ex 4.

Tons of stuff just like that in the scriptures. He's not a bully. He's a loving God who would never overstep our free will. He gave the man Jesus the mission and it was up to the man Jesus to follow through or not. Making Jesus God completely obfuscates the incredible effort Jesus, by his free will, put forth in redeeming us. Making him God is just blah to the nth degree. God always obeyed Himself...wow, who would have thought? And to think He actually believed Himself that He'd raise Himself from the dead. Pretty hollow in my view. Sounds like something men would make up. Oh...wait...they did!

 

[PinSeeker]

It's so silly to say a man named Jesus is named Immanuel.

I wouldn't call what God says (through Matthew) "silly." But to each his own.

"God with us" does not literally mean the person called Immanuel is God...

If God names Him that, then that He is, and He did, as prophesied by Isaiah and referred to directly by Matthew.

The trinitarian house of cards tumbles so easily.

A man "sees" what he wants to "see," I guess...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

God's foreknowledge is not a mere cognitive ("knowing beforehand") action. Paul says in Romans 8:29 "those whom God foreknew." But in the mere cognitive sense, God knows everybody and everything beforehand ~ long before it actually happens.

Abraham about to kill Isaac:

Gen 22:12,

He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.”
​

God didn't know if Abraham would follow through or not until Abraham raised the knife.

Interestingly enough, this account shows an angel (v 11) talking as if he were God himself. I think I've mentioned the idea of agency in the Ancient Near East. The agent was considered as being virtually identical with the person who sent him. Jesus was sent by God. As such he was God's agent, and, like the angel, would be considered as virtually equal to God. Nonetheless, the agent was not the same person as the one who sent him.

Maybe that helps you understand why Jesus said he and his Father are one. That's how the Jews would have understood it. Agency explains many verses that are taken as Jesus being God. We look at it from our own modern West point of view, instead of trying to understand how the ancient Middle Eastern person world see it.

We actually still have agency today, but we don't see it as connecting the agent with the one who sent him to anywhere near the degree to which the Jews in Jesus' time saw it.

Jer 36:3,

It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the disaster that I intend to do to them, so that every one may turn from his evil way, and that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.”
​

God wasn't sure Judah would hear and turn from evil or not. If He knew one way or the other, it would be disingenuous of Him to say, "it may be."

Many other examples. God gave us free will. If He knew I would always choose good, then I would hardly be free to choose evil.

 

[Rich R]

Unless, he or she, because of who he or she was ~ because of his or her being in Adam ~ was already guilty? Now, that's getting into Biblical territory, regardless who taught or teaches it.

Yes. Obviously, by nature we are all guilty thanks to Adam. We all have a sin nature and God certainly knows that. I was talking about individual sins that result from our sin nature. Those God does not know until we do or don't commit the actual act.

 

[keithr]

The only difference between our belief is the pre-existance of Jesus. I think it was in God's mind and yo think it was literal.

If Jesus just existed in God's mind before his human birth, then how do you harmonise that idea with the following verses?:

John 6 (WEB):

(38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
(46) Not that anyone has seen the Father, except he who is from God. He has seen the Father.
(51) I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​

Jeuss said, in John 3:13 (ESV):

(13) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
​

John the baptist said, John 3:31 (WEB):

(31) He who comes from above is above all. He who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.​

Paul said, 1 Corinthians 15:47 (WEB):

(47) The first man is of the earth, made of dust. The second man is the Lord from heaven.​