A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[GRACE ambassador]

Praise God! Very well written and poignant, GRACE ambassador...It's a blessing that you brought up Isaiah 9:6 which refers to Jesus as Mighty God, and there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4), and there are no other gods (Isaiah 45:5).

Thanks - appreciate the kind words. I just thought of this study as I was reading my
daily Bible portions. i.e.: With [I like] your words, "God, At His Discretion, Informs us
When The WORD [As God, The SON], 'Is Referred To,' And When The LORD JESUS,
[As Son of man], is Being Referred To." [my conclusions in brackets], found in
Hebrews_1:

[↓ The Father] ​

(1) God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners Spake in time past
Unto the fathers by the prophets [Through God, The Holy Spirit (Mark_12:36)],

(2) Hath in these last days Spoken Unto us By His SON,
Whom [As Son of man] He Hath Appointed Heir of all things,
By Whom [As God, The SON] Also He Made the worlds;
[cp John 1:1-3; Gen 1:1]

(2) Who [As God, The SON] Being The Brightness Of His Glory, and
The Express Image Of His Person, and [As God, The SON] upholding all
things By The Word Of His [As God, The SON] Power, when He Had By
Himself [As Son of man] Purged our sins, Sat down on The Right Hand
Of The Majesty On High;

(4) [As Son of man] Being Made So Much Better than
the angels, as He [As Son of man] Hath by inheritance
Obtained A More Excellent Name than they.
---
CP:
Heb_2:9 But we see Jesus, Who [As God, The SON, Humbled Himself, And Then]
Was Made [As Son of man] a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death,
Crowned With Glory and Honour; that He [As Son of man] By The Grace of God
should taste death for every man. [Thanks Be To God For HIS Precious BLOOD!]
----------------------------------------------------------------------- (Acts 20:28) -----

(5) For unto which of the angels Said He at any time, Thou art My SON, this day have
I begotten Thee? And again, I will be to Him A Father, and He shall be to Me A SON?
[As Son of man Who IS God, The SON? Must BE So, Unless there is some kind of Alien
creature, our Precious friends have found In Scripture that we don't know about, eh?]

(6) And again, when He Bringeth in The Firstbegotten [As The Already-ETERNALLY
Existing God "I AM," The SON, Conceived By God, The Holy Spirit] into the world,
He Saith, And let ALL the angels of God worship Him [As Son of man].

[Boggles the mind how anyone "DENIES worshipping God, The SON, Who Became A Man," Correct?]:

---------------------------------------- [No Contradiction, Correct?] --------------------
(8) But Unto The SON [As God, The SON] He Saith, Thy Throne, O God, is
for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(9) Thou [As Son of man] Hast loved righteousness, and hated
iniquity; therefore God, even Thy [As Son of man Has A] God, Hath
Anointed Thee [As Son of man] with the oil of gladness Above
Thy [As Son of man] fellows [men/women, His 'Saved' brethren].

(10) And, Thou, Lord [God The SON, The WORD], in the beginning
Hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works
of Thine [As God, The SON] Hands: [Again! cp John 1:1-3; Gen 1:1]

(13) But to which of the angels Said He at any time, Sit on
My Right Hand, until I Make Thine enemies Thy footstool?"
-------- [As BOTH Son of man AND As God, The SON] -------
cp:
Rev_6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from
The Face Of Him That Sitteth on The Throne, and from The Wrath of The Lamb:

Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of The Wrath Of God, which is poured
out without mixture into The Cup of His Indignation; and he shall be tormented with
fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and In The Presence of The Lamb:
------------------------------------------
I pray that ALL of our Precious friends on this Board, do Seriously wish to AVOID This
JUDGMENT Of God Almighty! And would Rather Have God's GRACE And Peace! Amen?

Precious @Kermos, Appreciate all your Wonderful Encouragement!:
Any errors, Or, Any additional [God-Honoring] Clarifications, please let me know...

"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"
(Psalms_133:1), eh? Just LOVE a good Bible study, Don't you?

 

[Keiw]

You most certainly lie and deceive, and this post clearly enumerates your deceptions.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5). And you repeat your evil proclamation as recorded in post #1247 in this thread
• You presented that Jesus is ho Theos in John 1:1 when you failingly asserted that I have two gods with your replacement of "the Word was with God" with "God was with God" as shown in post #1271 in this thread because the grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so the accuracte replacement is "the God was with God", and there is ho Theos for the Word, Who is Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14).
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• People like you are willingly ignorant of the creation (2 Peter 3:5) as shown in post #1445 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure deliberately deceives.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible as shown in post #719 in this thread, in fact, The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned in the referenced post.
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are a wickedly unreliable source.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

You hate facts dont you. You throw away any facts to serve your misleading deceptions. God will not accept it-John 4:22-24

 

[Kermos]

You hate facts dont you. You throw away any facts to serve your misleading deceptions. God will not accept it-John 4:22-24

By the grace of God, I love the Truth (John 14:6).

You prove yourself to be a liar, so you separate yourself from the Truth, and you cannot be trusted to convey Truth.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5). And you repeat your evil proclamation as recorded in post #1247 in this thread
• You presented that Jesus is ho Theos in John 1:1 when you failingly asserted that I have two gods with your replacement of "the Word was with God" with "God was with God" as shown in post #1271 in this thread because the grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so the accuracte replacement is "the God was with God", and there is ho Theos for the Word, Who is Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14).
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• People like you are willingly ignorant of the creation (2 Peter 3:5) as shown in post #1445 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure deliberately deceives.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible as shown in post #719 in this thread, in fact, The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned in the referenced post.
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are a wickedly unreliable source.

 

[PinSeeker]

You hate facts dont you.

I think it's just that his facts don't correspond to your "facts," Keiw.

By the way, you just cited a Scripture (John 4:22-24) that clearly insinuates the eternal existence of the third Person of the triune Jehovah...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

Thanks - appreciate the kind words. I just thought of this study as I was reading my
daily Bible portions. i.e.: With [I like] your words, "God, At His Discretion, Informs us
When The WORD [As God, The SON], 'Is Referred To,' And When The LORD JESUS,
[As Son of man], is Being Referred To." [my conclusions in brackets], found in
Hebrews_1:

[↓ The Father] ​

(1) God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners Spake in time past
Unto the fathers by the prophets [Through God, The Holy Spirit (Mark_12:36)],

(2) Hath in these last days Spoken Unto us By His SON,
Whom [As Son of man] He Hath Appointed Heir of all things,
By Whom [As God, The SON] Also He Made the worlds;
[cp John 1:1-3; Gen 1:1]

(2) Who [As God, The SON] Being The Brightness Of His Glory, and
The Express Image Of His Person, and [As God, The SON] upholding all
things By The Word Of His [As God, The SON] Power, when He Had By
Himself [As Son of man] Purged our sins, Sat down on The Right Hand
Of The Majesty On High;

(4) [As Son of man] Being Made So Much Better than
the angels, as He [As Son of man] Hath by inheritance
Obtained A More Excellent Name than they.
---
CP:
Heb_2:9 But we see Jesus, Who [As God, The SON, Humbled Himself, And Then]
Was Made [As Son of man] a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death,
Crowned With Glory and Honour; that He [As Son of man] By The Grace of God
should taste death for every man. [Thanks Be To God For HIS Precious BLOOD!]
----------------------------------------------------------------------- (Acts 20:28) -----

(5) For unto which of the angels Said He at any time, Thou art My SON, this day have
I begotten Thee? And again, I will be to Him A Father, and He shall be to Me A SON?
[As Son of man Who IS God, The SON? Must BE So, Unless there is some kind of Alien
creature, our Precious friends have found In Scripture that we don't know about, eh?]

(6) And again, when He Bringeth in The Firstbegotten [As The Already-ETERNALLY
Existing God "I AM," The SON, Conceived By God, The Holy Spirit] into the world,
He Saith, And let ALL the angels of God worship Him [As Son of man].

[Boggles the mind how anyone "DENIES worshipping God, The SON, Who Became A Man," Correct?]:

---------------------------------------- [No Contradiction, Correct?] --------------------
(8) But Unto The SON [As God, The SON] He Saith, Thy Throne, O God, is
for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(9) Thou [As Son of man] Hast loved righteousness, and hated
iniquity; therefore God, even Thy [As Son of man Has A] God, Hath
Anointed Thee [As Son of man] with the oil of gladness Above
Thy [As Son of man] fellows [men/women, His 'Saved' brethren].

(10) And, Thou, Lord [God The SON, The WORD], in the beginning
Hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works
of Thine [As God, The SON] Hands: [Again! cp John 1:1-3; Gen 1:1]

(13) But to which of the angels Said He at any time, Sit on
My Right Hand, until I Make Thine enemies Thy footstool?"
-------- [As BOTH Son of man AND As God, The SON] -------
cp:
Rev_6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from
The Face Of Him That Sitteth on The Throne, and from The Wrath of The Lamb:

Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of The Wrath Of God, which is poured
out without mixture into The Cup of His Indignation; and he shall be tormented with
fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and In The Presence of The Lamb:
------------------------------------------
I pray that ALL of our Precious friends on this Board, do Seriously wish to AVOID This
JUDGMENT Of God Almighty! And would Rather Have God's GRACE And Peace! Amen?

Precious @Kermos, Appreciate all your Wonderful Encouragement!:
Any errors, Or, Any additional [God-Honoring] Clarifications, please let me know...

"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"
(Psalms_133:1), eh? Just LOVE a good Bible study, Don't you?

Which version do you use that has the words "God the Son?" You appear to base your entire doctrine on such a phrase. I just haven't seen it and I know it's not found anywhere in a Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek text. The only ancient source I know of that uses "God the Son" is the Athenasian Creed and that creed has a some problems:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly." Athenasian Creed

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:9 (Nothing about the "catholic faith")​

"And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal." Athenasian Creed​

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. John 14:28,​

There's many more differences, but I'd think that even one such contradiction would be enough to make any Christian loathe to build a doctrine on such a document.

 

[Rich R]

I think it's just that his facts don't correspond to your "facts," Keiw.

By the way, you just cited a Scripture (John 4:22-24) that clearly insinuates the eternal existence of the third Person of the triune Jehovah...

Grace and peace to you.

Are you sure you want to stick with that? Let's look at John:

John 4:22-24,

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
​

This says nothing whatsoever about the eternal existence of anybody. All I see in your assertion is the incredible power of tradition to prevent sincere Christians from reading what's written without adding anything.

 

[PinSeeker]

Are you sure you want to stick with that?

Absolutely.

Let's look at John...

As if us either of us haven't...

...says nothing whatsoever about the eternal existence of anybody.

Not in so many words, no, but that matters not; it is what it is.

All I see in your assertion is the incredible power of tradition to prevent sincere Christians from reading what's written without adding anything.

"Still a man hears what he wants to hear (sees what he wants to see) and disregards the rest..." ("The Boxer," Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel, 1968)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keiw]

By the grace of God, I love the Truth (John 14:6).

You prove yourself to be a liar, so you separate yourself from the Truth, and you cannot be trusted to convey Truth.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5). And you repeat your evil proclamation as recorded in post #1247 in this thread
• You presented that Jesus is ho Theos in John 1:1 when you failingly asserted that I have two gods with your replacement of "the Word was with God" with "God was with God" as shown in post #1271 in this thread because the grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so the accuracte replacement is "the God was with God", and there is ho Theos for the Word, Who is Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14).
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• People like you are willingly ignorant of the creation (2 Peter 3:5) as shown in post #1445 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure deliberately deceives.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible as shown in post #719 in this thread, in fact, The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned in the referenced post.
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are a wickedly unreliable source.

Its not me who taught you error. Its the altered error translations you use. You need to look at facts, like the following.
God inspired his written word, God put his name in that written word nearly 7000 times. Its his will that it be there. By satans will men removed his name, they had no right to alter his inspired words. Thus all using those translations are mislead to support satans will over Gods will. Every religion that uses those translations condemned the translators who had enough love and respect for Gods will to put his name back. You dont see something wrong with that picture? Why would those who supposedly love God and live by his will do such a thing? Because they are mislead by satans will is the answer. They are these-2Cor 11:12-15--the ones you listen to.

 

[Keiw]

I think it's just that his facts don't correspond to your "facts," Keiw.

By the way, you just cited a Scripture (John 4:22-24) that clearly insinuates the eternal existence of the third Person of the triune Jehovah...

Grace and peace to you.

YHWH(Jehovah)-- in the Ot it says--I am YHWH(Jehovah) beside me( singular) there is no other God.
I hope that clears your confusion up.
At John 4:22-24--Jesus makes it clear all other gods beside the Father are false.

 

[PinSeeker]

YHWH(Jehovah)-- in the Ot it says--I am YHWH(Jehovah) beside me( singular) there is no other God.

It does, and the NT confirms that Jesus is no other God, but the same one, made man.

I hope that clears your confusion up.

LOL! Says a creator/perpetuator of confusion...

At John 4:22-24--Jesus makes it clear all other gods beside the Father are false.

He certainly does. And elsewhere as well.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

Rich R said:

...says nothing whatsoever about the eternal existence of anybody.

Not in so many words, no, but that matters not; it is what it is.

The Bible doesn't say in so many words that God lives on the moon either, but I want to believe he does. Whether or not it's actually in the scriptures matters not; it is what it it is. I trust you see my sarcasm here, but it is intended to make a point.

Could it be God doesn't live on the moon any more than the verses in question say nothing about eternal existence? That's what I'm thinking.

I hate to keep bringing up Plato, but he very much believed in and taught the eternal soul along with a trinity. The Jews of the early church would have choked to think that. It wasn't until some time later that Greek converts brought these ideas with them to Christianity. That's the simple truth as to how the eternal soul and trinity infiltrated the early church. It's verifiable history which happens to agree with the scriptures (not suggesting that history is as good as the Bible or that the Bible needs historical validation, but in this case they do line up). The "another Jesus" Paul warned about that was being taught in the early church was none other than the Jesus that was becoming part of a trinity. The idea of a trinity came from Plato, not Paul.

"Still a man hears what he wants to hear (sees what he wants to see) and disregards the rest..." ("The Boxer," Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel, 1968)

Well, at least you admit you hear what you want to hear and disregards the rest.

 

[GEN2REV]

I think it's just that his facts don't correspond to your "facts," Keiw.

By the way, you just cited a Scripture (John 4:22-24) that clearly insinuates the eternal existence of the third Person of the triune Jehovah...

Grace and peace to you.

If that were the case, there would be mention of that 3rd person here. John 14:21-23

John 4:22-24 doesn't mention any 2nd or 3rd person.

 

[GEN2REV]

YHWH(Jehovah)-- in the Ot it says--I am YHWH(Jehovah) beside me( singular) there is no other God.
I hope that clears your confusion up.
At John 4:22-24--Jesus makes it clear all other gods beside the Father are false.

There is a Psalm by David in Chronicles that makes it undeniable that God is a singular entity.

Anybody who can look at each verse of this Psalm and still claim that God is 3 people is lying in such a foolish manner as to destroy their own credibility. This is a great example of why modern churches almost never read/teach from the OT.

1 Chronicles 16:7-36

The pronouns His & Him are used so many times that it can't possibly be referring to multiple people.

 

[PinSeeker]

Whether or not it's actually in the scriptures matters not; it is what it it is.

This, I agree with. Yes, whether or not the exact words are in the Scriptures or not is of no real consequence; it is what it is. That was precisely my point.

I trust you see my sarcasm here, but it is intended to make a point.

I do get your sarcasm, and I get your pointless point, too.

Could it be God doesn't live on the moon any more than the verses in question say nothing about eternal existence? That's what I'm thinking.

Yes, I know, but I might question whether you're really thinking.

I hate to keep bringing up Plato, but he very much believed in and taught the eternal soul along with a trinity.

He did, but he was not the first. And again, what Paul says in Romans 1 is quite relevant here. See above.

The Jews of the early church would have choked to think that.

Some of them may have, but that means nothing. Moses knew very well that there was more than one Person in the Godhead; we see that in Genesis 1.

It wasn't until some time later that Greek converts brought these ideas with them to Christianity.

This is patently false. See above.

The "another Jesus" Paul warned about that was being taught in the early church was none other than the Jesus that was becoming part of a trinity.

Well, I understand that's what you think, but the "another gospel" Paul warned about being taught encompassed many things, one of which was that Jesus was not God made man, which He is very clear about in all his letters. And in this I would include even the very passage I think you are talking about here, Galatians 1:6-10. Philippians 2:5-11 and Colossians 1 and 4, also written by Paul, are especially clear. Generally speaking, though, there were preachers among the Galatians trying to persuade the them that they should require circumcision and obedience to the whole law as a means of justification before God, which Paul alludes to specifically in Galatians 4:17 and Galatians 6:12-13.

The idea of a trinity came from Plato, not Paul.

Neither one, really.

Well, at least you admit you hear what you want to hear and disregards the rest.

That's all you, my friend. All you. And I would add this ~ directly from Scripture ~ and apply it to you and those in your camp, at least regarding the matters being discussed here:

"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths." [Paul, 2 Timothy 4:3]

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

 

[PinSeeker]

There is a Psalm by David in Chronicles that makes it undeniable that God is a singular entity.

Yes, I hope no one is denying that God is a singular entity. That you think I am or that any trinitarian here is doing that is troubling, in a way, but so be it. But yes, God is a singular entity, and the fact that there are multiple (three) Persons in the Godhead does nothing to detract from the fact. He is triune ~ three in one, and one in three.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths." [Paul, 2 Timothy 4:3]

Grace and peace to you, Rich.[/QUOTE]

"So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God."

~ Athenasian Creed ~
​

Since nothing like this exists in reality, this is the myth Paul warned about in Timothy, the very thing John was debunking, and which infiltrated he early church.

We could ignore reality and say that only those with some secret knowledge that means three equaling one as the Creed avers. Of course now we're entering Gnostic territory. Plato was a big promoter of ignoring reality in favor of some unknowable power in the unseen world.

God is totally opposite. He wants us to know and understand. He uses words so we can understand, not just believe that which makes no sense. Of course since He wrote to an ancient Middle Eastern people, Jews, He spoke in terms they would understand. There is a rich field of research to see how they understood the word "logos" in John 1 instead of just substituting "Jesus" for it.

I think you are a good sincere Christian with a good handle on the scriptures. But we all look through a dark glass, so I understand those who don't think like myself and a growing number of Christians. Nonetheless, every day there are more Trinitarians who take an honest look at the matter and end up believing Jesus is actually the son of the one YHWH.

​

 

[Kermos]

Its not me who taught you error. Its the altered error translations you use. You need to look at facts, like the following.
God inspired his written word, God put his name in that written word nearly 7000 times. Its his will that it be there. By satans will men removed his name, they had no right to alter his inspired words. Thus all using those translations are mislead to support satans will over Gods will. Every religion that uses those translations condemned the translators who had enough love and respect for Gods will to put his name back. You dont see something wrong with that picture? Why would those who supposedly love God and live by his will do such a thing? Because they are mislead by satans will is the answer. They are these-2Cor 11:12-15--the ones you listen to.

@GEN2REV this post goes for you too since you liked Keiw's post.

The people preaching the doctrine of demons - specifically Watchtower Society people - use the New World Translation that mistranslates God's name as Jehovah over and over again.

The Holy Name of God is YHWH.

Your bible is corrupt, and you are a deceiver who rejects the Truth (John 14:6) that Jesus is everlasting God for the Word of God says that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[GEN2REV]

Yes, I hope no one is denying that God is a singular entity. That you think I am or that any trinitarian here is doing that is troubling, in a way, but so be it. But yes, God is a singular entity, and the fact that there are multiple (three) Persons in the Godhead does nothing to detract from the fact. He is triune ~ three in one, and one in three.

No, I'm sorry. That is not the same thing at all.

Contrary to Wiki, or any other corrupt source, an entity is a singular being - impossible to be multiple people/persons.

An old Webster's Dictionary, that is almost worth its weight in gold, that I keep around for its uncorrupted definitions, gives us this for entity:

Entity: - a thing that has definite, individual existence ...

Now, you can play word games all you like and try to claim that an individual is multiple individuals, but it just gets to be so preposterous that I can't even listen to it, read it, tolerate it any longer.

As I posted, the Psalm from Chronicles makes very clear that God is a singular Him and a solo individual and nothing more than that in number.

 

[GEN2REV]

@GEN2REV this post goes for you too since you liked Keiw's post.

The people preaching the doctrine of demons - specifically Watchtower Society people - use the New World Translation that mistranslates God's name as Jehovah over and over again.

The Holy Name of God is YHWH.

Your bible is corrupt, and you are a deceiver who rejects the Truth (John 14:6) that Jesus is everlasting God for the Word of God says that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

Hmm. Not sure what I was 'liking' specifically in that post, but I don't think I disagree with anything in this post of yours.

 

[Kermos]

Exod 32:12-14,

12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit [it] for ever.

14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Deut 32:36,

For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that [their] power is gone, and [there is] none shut up, or left.

Ps 135:14,

For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants.

Jer 18:8,

If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:10,

If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Jer 26:13,

Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

How do these verses fit with others that say God does not repent? The answer requires some honest, open minded, research, free from inflexible, preconceived ideas.


Not necessarily, as evidenced by the verse I just quoted. Obviously, more study is needed.


Maybe it is you who calls the word of God a lie? Maybe you don't know God? You apparently see Him as a non-flexible bully who will do whatever He wants regardless of what people may or may not do. I see Him as a loving and gracious God who is able to respond appropriately to man's free will actions. And He does it in such a way that He is still able to bring about His final goals. That's resourcefulness to the max!

I understand that there are certain things God will absolutely accomplish, namely the new heaven and new earth, Whereas you see Him dong that by a fixed, inflexible route, I see Him doing it in conjugation with free will people. Any god can force his will upon the people, regardless of how the people react to him. YHWH is not at all like that. Instead of forcing, He is able to lovingly and patiently convince people to carry out His will.

God didn't take just back the dominion He gave to Adam and Eve, come down to earth (why after 4,000 years of human suffering is another question), take back their dominion, and make things right again all by Himself. That's a weak god. Our God is much bigger than that. He actually convinced enough people to copy and preserve His words, the instructions Jesus would need to finalize God's plan of redemption. Jesus, being a man, had complete free will to follow those instructions to the end. The fact that any man, just like the rest of us, did that is beyond comprehension. Out of the billions of people that have inhabited this planet, only one had the fortitude to obey YHWH in all points. Didn't miss a jot or tittle. If you think that is disrespectful, than all I can say is that it shows the tremendous power of tradition in the face of truth.

If you see it some other way...oh well...you just have a dry, bully, un-imaginative, un-resourceful, un-feeling god...the same as all the other Ancient Near Eastern gods. Sorry, but the God I worship is light years ahead of the others.

You still fail to understand linguistics.

In Exodus 32:14, we find the Hebrew word וַיִּנָּ֖חֶם (Strong's 5162 - nacham - to be sorry, console oneself), so just as God had me show you where are you adulterated the word of God in Jeremiah 18:6-10 into your foreign to the Word of God meaning of "God changes", here you are evilly applying the wrong meaning to the very same Hebrew word (or inflection of the word) from Jeremiah 18:6-10 occurring in:

• Exodus 32:12
• Exodus 32:14
• Jeremiah 26:13

"For YHWH will vindicate His people,
And will have compassion on His servants,
When He sees that their strength is gone,
And there is none remaining, bond or free" (Deuteronomy 32:36) WITH NO "REPENT" THEREIN.

"For YHWH will judge His people And will have compassion on His servants" (Psalm 135:14) WITH NO "REPENT" THEREIN.

No verses that you cited state that God changed.

The word repent is not in any of the verses that you cited.

In your contempt of the unchanging God YHWH, Rich R, you deny the Word of God who says "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

It is written "the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.” (Prophet Samuel, 1 Samuel 15:29).

As you were shown, the Lord does not change, so "I will be" fails as a proper translation for ehyeh in Exodus 3:14.

Truly, "I AM" is the proper translation for the Hebrew word ehyeh in Exodus 3:14, thus we have "I AM Who I AM" with YHWH expressing God’s tie-in with Jesus saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

When you try to disassociate Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 in your heart, then you call the Word of God a LIE, in fact, your word leads you to not know who God is.