A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Enoch111]

And I was especially drawing your attention to when you wrote '...“I Will Be What I Will Be” (Not I AM)..."

Since all the English translations have "I AM THAT I AM" this poor excuse for denying the deity of Christ (who called Himself "I AM") won't wash. Both statements mean the same thing.

New International Version
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
New Living Translation
God replied to Moses, "I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you."
English Standard Version
God said to Moses, “ I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘ I AM has sent me to you.’”
Berean Study Bible
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
New American Standard Bible
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
King James Bible
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you."
International Standard Version
God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and then said, "Tell the Israelis: 'I AM sent me to you.'"
NET Bible
God said to Moses, "I am that I am." And he said, "You must say this to the Israelites, 'I am has sent me to you.'"
GOD'S WORD® Translation
God answered Moses, "I Am Who I Am. This is what you must say to the people of Israel: 'I Am has sent me to you.'"
Jubilee Bible 2000
And God answered unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the sons of Israel: I AM (YHWH) has sent me unto you.
King James 2000 Bible
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, I AM has sent me unto you.
American King James Version
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.
American Standard Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Douay-Rheims Bible
God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.
Darby Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.
English Revised Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Webster's Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: And he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you.
World English Bible
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Young's Literal Translation
And God saith unto Moses, 'I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, 'Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'

Did you notice? Not a single one said "I will be what I will be"? And that is because the Hebrew says exactly what the English says.
וַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם׃

 

[Butch5]

I have a question I was hoping to maybe get some answers on from non-Trinitarians. Here goes: Using scriptural proofs, what would you say is the difference between serving the man Jesus Christ and serving God? I ask because this question presents itself in the following passage of scripture:

22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eye-service as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as unto the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. Serve Christ the Lord. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality. (Colossians 3:22-25)

The Trinitarian interprets "the Lord" here to be one and the same in every verse, referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, whom Paul's readers were being encouraged to serve with sincerity of heart, in fearing God. The non-Trinitarian, however, interprets verses 22-24 to be references to serving God, whereas the phrase in v.24 "Serve Christ the Lord" is a sudden transition to talking about serving the man Jesus Christ.

So how from scripture is serving the man Jesus Christ different from serving God?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.
Hidden In Him

It's not. Paul said to the Corinthians, 'to us there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ'. In the passage you referenced Paul names the Lord that he is referring to. However, Jesus Himself said that the words He spoke were not His but the Father's. Thus, following Christ is following the Father.

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (Jn. 14:10 KJV)

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. (Jn. 7:16 KJV)

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (Jn. 6:38 KJV)

 

[Aunty Jane]

But let me ask you this: Supposing the conspiracy really did take place, and the Divine Name was somehow removed from all MSS within the first few centuries of the Christian Era, and did not appear again until the JWs restored it in Biblical form in the 1800s.

No sorry, you have a lot of assumptions where we are concerned. The divine name was never missing from scripture until translation began.

If you consult the Jewish Tanakh you will see the divine name was always there....it was just never uttered. And when the Tanakh was translated into English the divine name was a rendition of Adonai (LORD) but the divine name never left Jewish scripture.

Exodus 3:15...
“15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.
טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:”

So losing God’s name was a Jewish response to a situation that was out of line with God’s instructions concerning his name, demonstrated above in verse 15. This was to be God’s name forever and to be mentioned in all generations. So again Yahweh was let down by his people’s disobedience.

As I recall, you guys teach that no one is saved unless they are a Jehovahs Witness. Please correct me if I'm wrong there, but if so, this would mean the Living God left all of humanity blowing in the breeze for the better part of 15 centuries before He finally opened up a door (again) for true salvation and hearing the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Yes this is wrong.....since the modern day organisation of Jehovah’s Witnesses was not gathered until the late 1800’s, which was the time of the “great awakening” for many, all whom were doing Bible research and coming to very different conclusions about what it taught compared to the way Christendom had presented it for centuries.

The "wheat" have always existed among the "weeds"....so no, not just JW's will be saved....all who are "doing the will of the Father" will pass Jesus' final examination. Jesus knows who they are. I have no doubt that even some who call themselves JW's but fail to live up to their name will find themselves on the outer. Jehovah is not about labels.....he is about obedience, as we have seen from the very beginning in Eden, and down through Israel's history, and with the sowing of the "weeds" of Christendom. Disobedience to his laws and principles will never result in gaining God's favor.

How do you account for God allowing it to be covered over for the better part of 15 centuries?

Since we are living in "the time of the end", Daniel foretold a 'cleansing and refining' of God's worshippers at this juncture.(Daniel 12:9-10) But an 'abundance of knowledge' would also become available at this time. (Daniel 12:4) It has increased exponentially as time has taken us closer to "the end".

We believe that Christ returned in 1914 and has been directing his "elect" on earth to deal with the world events that he had foretold in Matthew 24, regarding the "sign of his presence and the end of the age". Many Bible translations incorrectly translate "parousia" as "coming" when it means "presence", giving Jesus prophesy a very different meaning. He said that he would be "with" his disciples in carrying out the very same work that he had commanded in the first century. (Matthew 24:14; 28:19-20) His Witnesses have been carrying out this 'commission' to preach the good news of God's Kingdom for over 100 years continually.

Seeing his "presence" as a signal to preach the Christian message, his 'chosen ones' set about gearing up to do that work. The churches have never done the kind of preaching that Jesus commanded. It requires the action of God's spirit to motivate his worshippers to accomplish what no one else can do under their own steam.

Christendom doesn't really know what God's Kingdom is in order to take the message out to the people. Who were the first Christians told to preach to?.......their own people...those who supposedly worshipped the same God and had the same scripture, but had been taken completely off track by corrupt leadership.....Christendom is a mirror image of first century Judaism.....and condemned for the very same reasons. Read Matthew 23 and see why Jesus castigated the Pharisees for their hypocritical worship.

People are as susceptible to the devil's deceptions as they have always been.....only those invited by the Father can come to his Christ and learn the truth. (John 6:65)

 

[Hidden In Him]

And again, your idolatry is held more dear than not being blasphemous toward God.

It's only "blasphemous" to your position, LoL, which you apparently think all humanity should just accept blindly without questioning the logic of it.

Those are the only 2 choices

In your world, yes.

Just another Ad Homenim for that is all you have.

Wrangler, you see, this is the primary problem I have with you. You act like EVERYTHING is some debate tactic, as if people don't have a life. I was simply telling exactly what I think of your arguments in that post, just as I was telling you what I thought of your arguments elsewhere.

So tell me: Was I using Ad Hominem in Post #17 when I said "I find your argument more credible than that of the Watchtower." Tell me what debate tactic I was using there, Wrangler, and label it for me, because that's apparently the only thing you think I am ever doing in conversations like this: Using debate tactics.

 

[Wrangler]

Wrangler, you see, this is the primary problem I have with you. You act like EVERYTHING is some debate tactic

Your insecurity is showing.

 

[Hidden In Him]

No sorry, you have a lot of assumptions where we are concerned. The divine name was never missing from scripture until translation began.

Translation began with the Vulgate (if nothing else) in the late 300s A.D. So like I said, you appear to be arguing that the Divine Name was somehow removed from all MSS within the first few centuries of the Christian Era, and did not appear again until the JWs restored it in Biblical form with the New World Translation.

Yes this is wrong.....since the modern day organisation of Jehovah’s Witnesses was not gathered until the late 1800’s, which was the time of the “great awakening” for many, all whom were doing Bible research and coming to very different conclusions about what it taught compared to the way Christendom had presented it for centuries.

The "wheat" have always existed among the "weeds"....so no, not just JW's will be saved....all who are "doing the will of the Father" will pass Jesus' final examination. Jesus knows who they are. I have no doubt that even some who call themselves JW's but fail to live up to their name will find themselves on the outer. Jehovah is not about labels.....he is about obedience, as we have seen from the very beginning in Eden, and down through Israel's history, and with the sowing of the "weeds" of Christendom. Disobedience to his laws and principles will never result in gaining God's favor.

This is slightly comforting (i.e. as concerns your worldview), but it is still IMO a cover for how the world was allowed to have the true word of God stolen from them for a millennia and a half before things got "corrected." We will reach a stalemate on that issue, because it is not an argument I can accept.

Since we are living in "the time of the end", Daniel foretold a 'cleansing and refining' of God's worshippers at this juncture.(Daniel 12:9-10) But an 'abundance of knowledge' would also become available at this time. (Daniel 12:4) It has increased exponentially as time has taken us closer to "the end".

Jane, this is not a "cleansing and refining" we are talking about. You are taking the position that the world was entirely ROBBED of the true word of God for many, many centuries, and that their only apparent hope was to somehow mysteriously "walk in obedience" despite being Trinitarians. It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Since all the English translations have "I AM THAT I AM" this poor excuse for denying the deity of Christ (who called Himself "I AM") won't wash. Both statements mean the same thing.

New International Version
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
New Living Translation
God replied to Moses, "I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you."
English Standard Version
God said to Moses, “ I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘ I AM has sent me to you.’”
Berean Study Bible
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
New American Standard Bible
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
King James Bible
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you."
International Standard Version
God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and then said, "Tell the Israelis: 'I AM sent me to you.'"
NET Bible
God said to Moses, "I am that I am." And he said, "You must say this to the Israelites, 'I am has sent me to you.'"
GOD'S WORD® Translation
God answered Moses, "I Am Who I Am. This is what you must say to the people of Israel: 'I Am has sent me to you.'"
Jubilee Bible 2000
And God answered unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the sons of Israel: I AM (YHWH) has sent me unto you.
King James 2000 Bible
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, I AM has sent me unto you.
American King James Version
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.
American Standard Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Douay-Rheims Bible
God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.
Darby Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.
English Revised Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Webster's Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: And he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you.
World English Bible
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Young's Literal Translation
And God saith unto Moses, 'I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, 'Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'

Yep, not a single trinitarian translation got it right.....I wonder why?

Did you notice? Not a single one said "I will be what I will be"? And that is because the Hebrew says exactly what the English says.

וַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם׃

That depends on who you believe I guess. Jews are the best judge of what their scripture means....

"God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:"
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864
The "Lord God" here is יְהֹוָ֞ה YAHWEH (Jehovah in English)....and his name means "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be).....it is a statement of his intentions, not telling his people that he exists...they already knew he existed.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Your insecurity is showing.

Yes, yes. And this ISN'T ad hominem, LoL.

You know, you used to be somewhat interesting to talk to. Now it's just getting tedious, I'm sorry to say.

 

[Wrangler]

this is not a "cleaning and refining" we are talking about. You are taking the position that the world was entirely ROBBED of the true word of God for many, many centuries, and that their only apparent hope was to somehow mysteriously "walk in obedience" despite being Trinitarians. It doesn't make sense to me.

It doesn’t make sense to you because you are putting your doctrine before God’s word.

For instance, putting aside this one point, the overwhelming Biblical evidence is against the trinity. Just 3 points of consideration:

1. The trinity is not in the Bible - not the word, not the doctrine.
2. The entire Bible is written by monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day.
3. The 1C prohibits a non-unitarian God, which was not lost in translation.

From this solidly Scriptural basis, it should make sense to you that historical and politically motivated support for trinitarianism in God’s word would not hold up to scrutiny.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Translation began with the Vulgate (if nothing else) in the late 300s A.D. So like I said, you appear to be arguing that the Divine Name was somehow removed from all MSS within the first few centuries of the Christian Era, and did not appear again until the JWs restored it in Biblical form with the New World Translation.

I see in you a certain kind of blindness HiH.....and I find it very sad that you seem unable to comprehend what Jesus foretold with regard to the "wheat and the weeds". Its like that never happened. It was already starting to take place whilst the apostles were alive, but their presence was restraining the inevitable whilst the final parts of the Christian scriptures were being written.

Do you understand that after the apostles died, the foretold apostasy set in gradually over the succeeding centuries. The word of God, came to be in the hands of the Roman Catholic church who made it illegal to own or even possess a copy of the Bible under threat of death.
Only the Latin was allowed to be read and soon only the priests understood Latin. They saw themselves as the sole custodians and transmitters of the word of God but sadly by then corruption had already taken hold. Doctrines started to creep in that had no place in Christianity at all......the trinity, immortality of the soul and hellfire to name just a few. All these beliefs originated in Babylon....not the Bible.They were all introduced by a corrupt church. This corruption didn't happen overnight.

This is slightly comforting (i.e. as concerns your worldview), but it is still IMO a cover for how the world was allowed to have the true word of God stolen from them for a millennia and a half before things got "corrected." We will reach a stalemate on that issue, because it is not an argument I can accept.

The "weeds" were allowed to have full sway, even as God had allowed an apostate Israel to exist for centuries teaching all manner of false ideas. Corrupting the translation of scripture in the minds of men is what satan does well. Its how he gets people to break God's laws without them realizing it.

When it was time for Christ to return to finish his mission, then and only then was the 'cleansing and refining' to take place.
You can believe that or not...it alters nothing. God's name never left the Bible until fairly recent times actually. The English translation of the KJV contained the divine name only four times out of almost 7,000 times where it was substituted with the titles "Lord" or "God" following the Jewish tradition. If the original Bible contained God's personal name so many times, why did humans decide to remove it with no command from God to do so?

God did not take it off them, but he did not prevent apostates from abandoning it either. Isn't it remarkable that in Acts 15:14, when Jehovah had had enough of Israel, Peter said...."how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name." God's name had always been important to God's people, even when humans failed to reverence and respect it as the Bible writers clearly did.

Jane, this is not a "cleaning and refining" we are talking about. You are taking the position that the world was entirely ROBBED of the true word of God for many, many centuries, and that their only apparent hope was to somehow mysteriously "walk in obedience" despite being Trinitarians. It doesn't make sense to me.

What are centuries to a timeless God? He has his own timetable and we can't hurry it up.

Not everyone accepted the trinity and anyone who dared to question RCC beliefs were soon silenced.....but yes, Christendom made the trinity the very foundation of their faith.......these are the ones who are breaking God's command that "no other gods" be worshipped but him. (Exodus 20:3) So those who broke God's law and put two other 'gods' in the Father's place, will answer for their error IMO. When Jesus rejects those who fail to do the will of his Father, he says "I NEVER knew you" and calls them "workers of lawlessness"....doesn't this explain why "few" are on "the road to life"? (Matthew 7:13-14) The majority hold to beliefs introduced by Roman Catholicism, not Jesus or the apostles.

How many are breaking the First Commandment and yet thinking that they are following God's word? Its not called 'deception' for nothing....ya know?

 

[APAK]

Since all the English translations have "I AM THAT I AM" this poor excuse for denying the deity of Christ (who called Himself "I AM") won't wash. Both statements mean the same thing.

New International Version
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
New Living Translation
God replied to Moses, "I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you."
English Standard Version
God said to Moses, “ I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘ I AM has sent me to you.’”
Berean Study Bible
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
New American Standard Bible
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
King James Bible
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you."
International Standard Version
God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and then said, "Tell the Israelis: 'I AM sent me to you.'"
NET Bible
God said to Moses, "I am that I am." And he said, "You must say this to the Israelites, 'I am has sent me to you.'"
GOD'S WORD® Translation
God answered Moses, "I Am Who I Am. This is what you must say to the people of Israel: 'I Am has sent me to you.'"
Jubilee Bible 2000
And God answered unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the sons of Israel: I AM (YHWH) has sent me unto you.
King James 2000 Bible
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, I AM has sent me unto you.
American King James Version
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.
American Standard Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Douay-Rheims Bible
God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.
Darby Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.
English Revised Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Webster's Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: And he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you.
World English Bible
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Young's Literal Translation
And God saith unto Moses, 'I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, 'Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'

Did you notice? Not a single one said "I will be what I will be"? And that is because the Hebrew says exactly what the English says.
וַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם׃

Enoch you are missing the point here. You are not listening at all. Exodus 3:14 is not the issue by itself and even if and then when YHWH says 'I WILL BE' (or some similar translation) has sent me!

You are waving this scripture of Exodus in my face with many translations and think I do not know what it means. DO YOU?! I do not think so.... I do not think I've yet answered you so boldly before . I must because I want you to know the truth.

Let me summarize the point I was making by agreeing with AJ. It was not that clear then.....let me make it perfectly clear here...

Error 1. The English translations of Exodus 3:14 for what they place in as 'I AM' is incorrect and deceitful. The following should be its translation from the Hebrew language.

YHWH said to Moses in English, ‘I am (being) that/who I am/shall be.’ It is the personal expression of the Almighty one. This expression reads in Hebrew as, ‘Ehyeh asher ehyeh,’ you shall say to the people in Hebrew, 'Ehyeh has sent me to you.’ It is translated into English as ‘I will/shall be,’ or ‘I am existing.’

Note: The divine name of the Almighty is YHWH not Ehyeh asher ehyeh, or Ehyeh! Although is does describe or protract the meaning of it.

Error 2: Many also compare the English incomplete translations as the ‘I am’ here, in this Exodus 3: verse 14, with John 8:58. They conclude that Jesus called himself YHWH because he also said ‘I am.’ in John8:58. For the two errors I've indicated already, this is a gross and very misleading error. It is sheer dishonesty is mixing them together to forge a corruption of the Hebrew and Greek languages of these two distinct and different terms with quite different meanings.

Further....
In John 8:58, Jesus’ words are translated in the common Greek expression as ‘ego eimi,’ that means in English ‘I am.’ A very common expression used by ANYONE!

The Greek translation of this verse 14 of Exodus 3, in English, is ‘I am being’ or ‘I am who exists’ from ‘ego eimi ho on’ and not ‘ego eimi.’ And further, it is in Greek, ‘ho on’ or in English, ‘who exists’ has sent me to you, not ‘I am.’

Blessings...

 

[Hidden In Him]

I see in you a certain kind of blindness HiH.....and I find it very sad that you seem unable to comprehend what Jesus foretold with regard to the "wheat and the weeds".

My dear friend, I have seen you reference this parable many times, and unfortunately I think you (and maybe your denomination before you) have appropriated it as your own when in reality it was never teaching on the Jehovahs Witnesses and the rest of Christendom in the 21st century. It is/was righty applied first and foremost to the Gnostics of the 1st century, who identified themselves as "Christians" but were anything but that, and practiced witchcraft and fornication in the name of Jesus Christ.

I will try to read your post tomorrow if I can, but I'm just saying that we would reach stalemate on this as well pretty shortly, because while you know I like you as a friend, I see you as spiritually blind to church history, and misapplying scripture in ways that are foreign and unnatural to their New Testament setting.

God bless, and I hope you have a nice evening in Beautiful, beach-laden Australia.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have seen you reference this parable many times, and unfortunately I think you (and maybe your denomination before you) have appropriated it as your own when in reality it was never teaching on the Jehovahs Witnesses and the rest of Christendom in the 21st century.

The "weeds" were not planted recently HiH....what made you think I said so?
The weeds have their roots in what became of Christianity after the death of the apostles.....its certainly not new...and nothing specifically to do with JW's. The "weeds" were to grow along with the "wheat" all the way to the harvest time....which I believe is looming, so it does involve true Christians in this "time of the end". The weeds were planted around the beginning of the 2nd century and became more prolific as time went on......in the 4th century with the takeover of Roman Catholicism, the die was cast.....and the rest as they say...is history.

It is/was righty applied first and foremost to the Gnostics of the 1st century, who identified themselves as "Christians" but were anything but that, and practiced witchcraft and fornication in the name of Jesus Christ.

Regardless of who was first, it makes no difference....weeds are weeds as opposed to wheat.
Jesus was speaking to an agricultural people and this use of 'wheat and weeds' brought home a very important illustration, well understood by middle eastern farmers. Do some research on "bearded darnel". In the area where Jesus preached it was a well known and poisonous weed, locally known as "wheat's evil twin".

I will try to read your post tomorrow if I can, but I'm just saying that we would reach stalemate on this as well pretty shortly, because while you know I like you as a friend, I see you as spiritually blind to church history, and misapplying scripture in ways that are foreign and unnatural to their New Testament setting.

No need to stress over differences HiH...we are all under the same judgment. Christ will judge which is which. He knows even when we do not. (Matthew 7:21-23)

God bless, and I hope you have a nice evening in Beautiful, beach-laden Australia.

Its a tough life but someone's gotta do it...... The locals are happy....

 

[keithr]

Note: The divine name of the Almighty is YHWH not Ehyeh asher ehyeh, or Ehyeh! Although is [it] does describe or protract the meaning of it.

YHVH (Yahavah) means "Self-existing father of love" - see

.

 

[APAK]

YHVH (Yahavah) means "Self-existing father of love" - see

.

VG clip keithr, I will keep it on hand

Self-existing or perpetuating Father of love indeed, the primitive and baseline thread spirit of himself he gives to all his creation....I could write a few more words on it...thanks for sharing this!

..I write His name as 'YHWH' although I pronoun the 'W' as a 'Va' - from my earlier days of speaking Slavic languages like Polish. W is always pronounced as a V.

 

[keithr]

They officially adopted the name in 1931, Keithr, but I'm referring more specifically to the Watchtower Society, which goes back to the 1800s and its founder Charles Taze Russell. But technically you are correct. A full Bible translation for the Watchtower didn't exist until the 1900s. I'm simply referring to the origins of the teachings.

Here is some more information on the subject:

The New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures was released in English in 1950, and the complete New World Translation
of the Holy Scriptures was published in 1961.

Pastor Russell Founded the Bible Students

In 1870 at Allegheny, Pennsylvania, a Bible Class was formed for systematic Bible study. Soon they selected Charles Taze Russell as their Pastor. At that time other earnest Christians were forming independent Bible classes for in-depth Bible study.

Pastor Russell became a leader of thought and activity among these congregations. In 1879 Zion's Watch Tower was formed, later known as the
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (not to be mistaken as Jehovah's Witnesses). This society did not become the central authority of the Bible
Student movement. It could not because all cooperating congregations of Bible Students held strictly to congregational self-government. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society was basically a publishing house and lecture bureau.

Pastor Russell never claimed to originate Bible truths, but rather to recover the truths held by the First Century church. He succeeded more than any other person, of course not without controversy. Wearied with the "Dark Age" theories of Christendom, he inspired hope and faith in the hearts of the masses. Like Jesus, the multitudes clamored to hear him.

Clergy Opposition

Why do some ministers today use the same old worn out vilifications that "doom and gloom" ministers in Russell's day concocted in desperation? Sheer jealousy! The people clamored to hear Russell and demanded that the newspapers carry his sermons. His "opposition" lamented that Pastor
Russell's writings had a "greater newspaper circulation every week than the combined circulation of all the priests and preachers of North America." Why? Because Pastor Russell's message gave hope in contrast to those "doomsday preachers."

Every Jew, Hindu, Moslem, etc., and even Christians who do not accept their particular brand of Christianity before death, they say is damned to an
eternity of torment. These preachers of "doom" both in Russell's day and today hold in contempt the Gospel of love taught by Pastor Russell and the Bible Student movement he founded. Calvinists especially cringed under the heat of the sunlight of this love. No wonder they taught that the vast majority were eternally damned before they were even born. Unable to meet Russell's scriptural logic, many resorted to personal attacks on him. All these attacks have been refuted.

Not Founder of Jehovah's Witnesses

After the death of Pastor Russell in 1916 Joseph Rutherford, whom Pastor Russell had recently dismissed from his staff, legally seized control of the Watch Tower, dismissed the majority of the Board of Directors and established dictatorial control. The writings of Pastor Russell were discarded. The Watch Tower became the central head and authority over all congregations willing to yield their sovereignty. Basic doctrines of the society seriously digressed from the teachings of Pastor Russell. The methods of conducting the evangelistic work were altered. The more sensational digressions such as refusing blood transfusions and saluting the flag even caught the public's eye.

Many individuals and congregations refused to surrender their Christian liberty or accept the new teachings. As early as 1917, the exodus from the
newly declared sovereign headquarters began. By 1931 over three quarters of those associated with the Bible Student movement in Pastor Russell's day had separated from the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society and formed independent and autonomous congregations. Today's Bible Students trace back through these separatists to Pastor Russell their founder.

Jehovah's Witnesses Founded in 1931

In 1931, fifteen years after Pastor Russell's death, Jehovah's Witnesses was founded. Its founder, Joseph Rutherford, presented a startling resolution entitled A NEW NAME which was adopted at its international convention on July 26, 1931. The resolution first observed that neither "Russellites" nor "Bible Students" were any longer appropriate names. (This position was ironically true, as over 75% of Bible Students from Pastor Russell's era had already separated.) Henceforth they would call themselves "Jehovah's Witnesses." Joseph Rutherford not Pastor Russell founded Jehovah's Witnesses. Pastor Russell died in 1916. Jehovah's Witnesses was founded in 1931. Pastor Russell founded the Bible Students who still affirm his teachings. Rutherford rejected Russell's teachings, purged Russell's Bible Students from his movement, rejected the name Bible Students and named his new movement "Jehovah's Witnesses."

Pastor Russell vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

The main teaching of Pastor Russell was that Jesus died a ransom for all. (1 Timothy 2:5-6) Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus died only for some. Pastor Russell taught a future probation because millions have died without hearing the Gospel. Even among many who hear it, uncertainty and confusion exist. (John 5:28-29; Acts 15:14-17; Revelation 22:17) Jehovah's Witnesses, like all fundamentalists, believe that if you reject their brand of the Gospel you are lost eternally.

Pastor Russell believed Bible prophecy taught that the Jewish people would be regathered to the promised land and the State of Israel would be reborn. (Matthew 23:32; Ezekiel 37:1-14; Jeremiah 31:4-12) Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the regathering of the Jews and the birth of the Israeli State is a change of history completely unrelated to Bible prophecy.

Pastor Russell did not found Jehovah's Witnesses. They reject his basic teachings. Pastor Russell founded the Bible Students. Bible Students today, as in Pastor Russell's day, affirm his teachings, which scripturally portrays a Gospel of love that wonderfully reflects the attributes of God.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1996 Bible Students Congregation of New Brunswick

 

[Brakelite]

The churches have never done the kind of preaching that Jesus commanded

That reveals a rather flawed and narrow knowledge of history. I suggest you broaden your material.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Here is some more information on the subject:

The New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures was released in English in 1950, and the complete New World Translation
of the Holy Scriptures was published in 1961.

Pastor Russell Founded the Bible Students

In 1870 at Allegheny, Pennsylvania, a Bible Class was formed for systematic Bible study. Soon they selected Charles Taze Russell as their Pastor. At that time other earnest Christians were forming independent Bible classes for in-depth Bible study.

Pastor Russell became a leader of thought and activity among these congregations. In 1879 Zion's Watch Tower was formed, later known as the
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (not to be mistaken as Jehovah's Witnesses). This society did not become the central authority of the Bible
Student movement. It could not because all cooperating congregations of Bible Students held strictly to congregational self-government. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society was basically a publishing house and lecture bureau.

Pastor Russell never claimed to originate Bible truths, but rather to recover the truths held by the First Century church. He succeeded more than any other person, of course not without controversy. Wearied with the "Dark Age" theories of Christendom, he inspired hope and faith in the hearts of the masses. Like Jesus, the multitudes clamored to hear him.

Clergy Opposition

Why do some ministers today use the same old worn out vilifications that "doom and gloom" ministers in Russell's day concocted in desperation? Sheer jealousy! The people clamored to hear Russell and demanded that the newspapers carry his sermons. His "opposition" lamented that Pastor
Russell's writings had a "greater newspaper circulation every week than the combined circulation of all the priests and preachers of North America." Why? Because Pastor Russell's message gave hope in contrast to those "doomsday preachers."

Every Jew, Hindu, Moslem, etc., and even Christians who do not accept their particular brand of Christianity before death, they say is damned to an
eternity of torment. These preachers of "doom" both in Russell's day and today hold in contempt the Gospel of love taught by Pastor Russell and the Bible Student movement he founded. Calvinists especially cringed under the heat of the sunlight of this love. No wonder they taught that the vast majority were eternally damned before they were even born. Unable to meet Russell's scriptural logic, many resorted to personal attacks on him. All these attacks have been refuted.

Not Founder of Jehovah's Witnesses

After the death of Pastor Russell in 1916 Joseph Rutherford, whom Pastor Russell had recently dismissed from his staff, legally seized control of the Watch Tower, dismissed the majority of the Board of Directors and established dictatorial control. The writings of Pastor Russell were discarded. The Watch Tower became the central head and authority over all congregations willing to yield their sovereignty. Basic doctrines of the society seriously digressed from the teachings of Pastor Russell. The methods of conducting the evangelistic work were altered. The more sensational digressions such as refusing blood transfusions and saluting the flag even caught the public's eye.

Many individuals and congregations refused to surrender their Christian liberty or accept the new teachings. As early as 1917, the exodus from the
newly declared sovereign headquarters began. By 1931 over three quarters of those associated with the Bible Student movement in Pastor Russell's day had separated from the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society and formed independent and autonomous congregations. Today's Bible Students trace back through these separatists to Pastor Russell their founder.

Jehovah's Witnesses Founded in 1931

In 1931, fifteen years after Pastor Russell's death, Jehovah's Witnesses was founded. Its founder, Joseph Rutherford, presented a startling resolution entitled A NEW NAME which was adopted at its international convention on July 26, 1931. The resolution first observed that neither "Russellites" nor "Bible Students" were any longer appropriate names. (This position was ironically true, as over 75% of Bible Students from Pastor Russell's era had already separated.) Henceforth they would call themselves "Jehovah's Witnesses." Joseph Rutherford not Pastor Russell founded Jehovah's Witnesses. Pastor Russell died in 1916. Jehovah's Witnesses was founded in 1931. Pastor Russell founded the Bible Students who still affirm his teachings. Rutherford rejected Russell's teachings, purged Russell's Bible Students from his movement, rejected the name Bible Students and named his new movement "Jehovah's Witnesses."

Pastor Russell vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

The main teaching of Pastor Russell was that Jesus died a ransom for all. (1 Timothy 2:5-6) Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus died only for some. Pastor Russell taught a future probation because millions have died without hearing the Gospel. Even among many who hear it, uncertainty and confusion exist. (John 5:28-29; Acts 15:14-17; Revelation 22:17) Jehovah's Witnesses, like all fundamentalists, believe that if you reject their brand of the Gospel you are lost eternally.

Pastor Russell believed Bible prophecy taught that the Jewish people would be regathered to the promised land and the State of Israel would be reborn. (Matthew 23:32; Ezekiel 37:1-14; Jeremiah 31:4-12) Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the regathering of the Jews and the birth of the Israeli State is a change of history completely unrelated to Bible prophecy.

Pastor Russell did not found Jehovah's Witnesses. They reject his basic teachings. Pastor Russell founded the Bible Students. Bible Students today, as in Pastor Russell's day, affirm his teachings, which scripturally portrays a Gospel of love that wonderfully reflects the attributes of God.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1996 Bible Students Congregation of New Brunswick

This piece seems to detail the differences between Russell's teachings and the JWs, but not the commonalities. Concerning Russell, Wiki also states:

His Scriptural interpretations differed from those of Catholics, and many Protestants, in the following areas:

- Hell: He said there was a heavenly resurrection of 144,000 righteous, as well as a "great multitude", but believed that the remainder of mankind slept in death, awaiting an earthly resurrection, rather than suffering in a literal Hell...

- Christ's Second Coming. Russell believed that Christ had returned invisibly in October 1874, and that he had been ruling from heaven since that date. He believed that a 'time of trouble' began then that would mark a gradual deterioration of civilized society leading up to the end of the "Gentile Times" with a climactic multi-national attack on a restored Israel, worldwide anarchy, and the sudden destruction of all world governments in October 1914. After the outbreak of World War I, Russell reinterpreted 1914 as the beginning of Armageddon.

Aren't these two teachings that are still retained by Jehovah's Witnesses to this day, or no? I appreciate the heads up, btw. I'm not a Jehovahs Witness, and have had to study them only because there are several JW members on this forum now, making it unavoidable if I wish to converse with them.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Regardless of who was first, it makes no difference....weeds are weeds as opposed to wheat.
Jesus was speaking to an agricultural people and this use of 'wheat and weeds' brought home a very important illustration, well understood by middle eastern farmers. Do some research on "bearded darnel". In the area where Jesus preached it was a well known and poisonous weed, locally known as "wheat's evil twin".

Yes, I did some study on darnel a few years back. But the analogy fits much better with the Gnostics. Jesus said in His parable that the Devil had sown them into the church, and again, the Gnostics practiced witchcraft and taught that fornication was pleasing to "God," and their religion essentially turned early Christianity into what we would generally refer to as Satanism today.

Its a tough life but someone's gotta do it...... The locals are happy....

LoL! It looks like a tough life. And the locals should be happy.

Are you saying those kangaroos are locals?

 

[Aunty Jane]

That reveals a rather flawed and narrow knowledge of history. I suggest you broaden your material.

Can I ask you how many people from any of Christendom’s churches have ever called at your door with “the good news of the kingdom”? (Acts 20:20; Matthew 10:11-14)
Missionary work is not just for foreign lands. The first Christians called on their fellow Jews in villages and towns and cities in their own vicinity. They preached to their neighbors.

I actually had the Pastor of a local church call at my door one day, many years ago, (the only time I have ever been visited by a member of any church, apart from the Mormons*) and when I told him I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses his face saddened, and then he said to me that he knew that the Lord Jesus commanded his disciples to preach like Jehovah’s Witnesses do, but that he had had no success in getting any of his congregation to join him in the work....then he asked if JW’s were paid to do what they do? I said, “of course not, for us it is a command, and part of our love of God and neighbor to participate in the work that Jesus commissioned us to do”....it’s a life saving work. (Matthew 28:19-20)

(*Mormons do not preach about God’s Kingdom....they only participate in their door to door ministry as young missionaries for a short period of time, and they have a vastly different message to the one Jesus preached.)

So because Jesus said “this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations”, (Matthew 24:14 as part of the “sign” of the end times) and he said he would be “with” his disciples in directing this work.....so, look for the only international body of Christians who have actually been carrying out that commission for over 100 years without let up in every nation on earth......some doing so under bans inspired by their own religious leaders. (like the Pharisees)

Only the power of God’s spirit could accomplish that as a global exercise conducted by a global brotherhood in hostile territories. Christendom’s churches can’t even get their people out preaching locally, let alone globally.

To me....actions speak louder than words.