A different take on signs and wonders.

[Getitright]

After reading about 5 or so pages of debate on whether signs and wonders and gifts of the Spirit are still occurring on another thread here, I thought I would chime in with a post that has a slightly different view.

Heavenly Father grant me the unction to speak what you are showing me, May your will be done in Jesus Name, Amen.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:29)

Earlier on this forum I have said that the gift of discerning of the spirits has been nullified in this day and age. I Believe this is of God's doing, and by his will that the church is in a state of flux and uncertainty over the issues. We see these sorts of debates ad infinitum online with little or no resolution ever, and they include not just this debate on cessationism and continuism of the gifts of the spirit, but also on many other divides.

I Believe the gifts of the Spirit have and do continue, save the gift of discerning of spirits which has been withheld from this generation. In Other words, God has chosen to make us Blind, That in the end we will all desire to see.

To some this blindness manifests in not seeing the gifts of the spirit, and to others it comes in the form of accepting all signs and wonders whether true or false as gifts of the spirit. In this regard both sides on this debate are blind. One is Blind to the gifts existence, while the other is largely blind to the existence of false signs and wonders, and are blindly deceived, and in some cases deceiving themselves. These are hard words for both sides.

But as I said, there is a reason for this, and that is that faith comes not by seeing, As the opening verse alludes to. Hebrews 11:1 states "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." This Blindness is there for the purpose of making us desire this final outpouring of the gift of the discernment of spirits, the eyesalve of God as spoken of in Revelation. Until we whether continuationist or charismatic come to see this need together we will continue to squabble, and this squabbling is part and parcel to us coming to desire the gift of seeing.

This is why this final outpouring of the gift of discerning of spirits is so vital and to be sought for by all involved. I would think even the fundamentalist has to agree that we as a church are in dire need of this, and instead of condemning the charismatic, they should be asking why they are not seeing, Just as the charismatic who condemns the fundamentalist for not seeing should pray that they should come to see what the fundamentalist has a controversy about, as to the seducing spirits involved. This is the unity of the Spirit. This is not compromise, but rather Humility and Love for brothers and sisters who are diverse from one another.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1 Cor. 13: 8-10)

I Post these verses with the following questions for both sides, for the Charismatic, Do You acknowledge that there is a time when these things shall pass away, and that your prophecies may fail? and for the Fundamentalist, Has that "perfect come in" yet which is when these gifts will cease? Please think about this. Let the words convict you.

For His Glory.

Yes, that which is perfect has come. The word that is translated perfect, actually means mature. Paul said we know in part and we prophesy in part. What does that mean? Well, the apostles weren't given the gospel all at once. They were give it over a period of time. Just look at the Jerusalem council. I contend that it is the gospel that they knew in part and that they prophesied in part. Their understanding of the Gospel was not mature. However, Paul looked forward to a day when it would be. At that time there would be no need for supernatural knowledge or prophesy. Regarding tongues, Paul said that tongues would cease of their own accord. We can see from church history that these gifts did in fact end. Some of the early Christian writers speak of only a remnant of the gifts still remaining in their day.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... Their understanding of the Gospel was not mature. However, Paul looked forward to a day when it would be. At that time there would be no need for supernatural knowledge or prophesy. Regarding tongues, Paul said that tongues would cease of their own accord. We can see from church history that these gifts did in fact end. ....

Well then I guess we're in Heaven where we DON'T NEED: Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, & Teachers; and Tongues & Interpretations. -- Or maybe we fell short, and all the anarchists in the streets are simply the welcoming committee to HELL!



And just now thinking about it, maybe it's those people who DENY THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL, who don't have these GIFTS -- but the REST OF US DO!

2 Tmothy 3:1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of stress. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, fierce, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding the form of religion but denying the power of it. Avoid such people.​

Silly People whose "religion" has deceived them ...
Bobby Jo

 

[Enoch111]

I Believe the gifts of the Spirit have and do continue, save the gift of discerning of spirits which has been withheld from this generation.

This statement does not have any biblical basis at all. If the gift of discerning the spirits is rare today, it is because the Word of God is rare today. Humanistic ideas and man-made doctrines have permeated Christendom. The Holy Spirit enables only those who wield the Sword of the Spirit -- the Word of God -- to discern the truth of God from the lies of Satan. The Scriptures themselves will give light to those who seek light. But those who are wilfully blind will then be judicially blinded.

 

[Getitright]

Well then I guess we're in Heaven where we DON'T NEED: Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, & Teachers; and Tongues & Interpretations. -- Or maybe we fell short, and all the anarchists in the streets are simply the welcoming committee to HELL!



And just now thinking about it, maybe it's those people who DENY THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL, who don't have these GIFTS -- but the REST OF US DO!

2 Tmothy 3:1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of stress. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, fierce, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding the form of religion but denying the power of it. Avoid such people.​

Silly People whose "religion" has deceived them ...
Bobby Jo

No one said the gifts would end when people are in Heaven The Scriptures don't even teach that people go to Heaven. As I said, the "perfect" did come. That can be seen from Church history.

 

[Bobby Jo]

No one said the gifts would end when people are in Heaven ...

The Gifts WON'T BE NEEDED IN HEAVEN, but they ARE NEEDED while we're still on earth.

Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

To the OP, -- I think I've SURPRISINGLY found some SIGNS & WONDERS in this "commercial":

It seemingly ties into my Rev. 11 "Two Witnesses" expectations of TRUMP and PENCE, but this time with OTHER Anointings!
Bobby Jo

 

[David H.]

This statement does not have any biblical basis at all. If the gift of discerning the spirits is rare today, it is because the Word of God is rare today. Humanistic ideas and man-made doctrines have permeated Christendom. The Holy Spirit enables only those who wield the Sword of the Spirit -- the Word of God -- to discern the truth of God from the lies of Satan. The Scriptures themselves will give light to those who seek light. But those who are wilfully blind will then be judicially blinded.

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: (Rev. 3:17)

What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order. (1 Cor. 14:36-40)

This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Eph. 4:17-24)

Willful blindness is to deny the existence of the gifts of the Spirit. The renewed Mind is what brings discernment via the Holy Ghost, every believer has a general sense of discernment. The Gift of discerning spirits is different in that this gift is visual.... a Seer as scripture calls them. We have a lot of prophets, Both true and false, very few seers. A Seer is someone called out of the womb with this gift. Like Samuel was. Or like Jeremiah. But this gift can also be granted to Believers, as Paul Speaks of. Do A study of the term seer in the old testament and find its equivalent in the new, You will find only one and that is the person who has the gift of discerning of spirits. This is both a negative gift, and a positive gift in that it does not just allow you to see fallacy but also verity. We have a lot of apologists using the vanity of their mind, and very few seers using the renewed spirit of the mind.

My OP is an overall observation of the church in general, whether fundamentalist or charismatic, Not a statement of biblical doctrine. I Agree, that truth comes by the word of God, But divine revelation comes via the Spirit of God, the mind of Christ.

It is time the church begins to learn how to fly on eagles wings instead of being grounded in human debates, and the doctrines of men.

But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. (Isaiah 40:31)

 

[Getitright]

The Gifts WON'T BE NEEDED IN HEAVEN, but they ARE NEEDED while we're still on earth.

Bobby Jo

The Bible doesn't teach that people go to Heaven. Whether the gifts are needed on earth or not doesn't have any bearing on whether they are still active or not. The world needs Jesus too, but He's not here.

 

[Bobby Jo]

The Bible doesn't teach that people go to Heaven. Whether the gifts are needed on earth or not doesn't have any bearing on whether they are still active or not. The world needs Jesus too, but He's not here.

Jesus gave his NEW Final Instructions before going to the Garden to be arrested, so if we obey we'll do just fine until HE Returns. And if we don't, then we'll be like YOU!

Please consider changing your "screen name" to "Getitwrong".
Bobby Jo

 

[Getitright]

Jesus gave his NEW Final Instructions before going to the Garden to be arrested, so if we obey we'll do just fine until HE Returns. And if we don't, then we'll be like YOU!

P yet, lease consider changing your "screen name" to "Getitwrong".
Bobby Jo

Not sure what that has to do with the subject at hand. My screen name is fine. I seek to get it right. I don't believe something because a pastor said so, or because it's the popular thing in Christianity today. If you study the history of Christianity you'll find that much of what is taught today is wrong. It wasn't taught in the beginning. As I said, there is nothing in the Bible that teaches that people go to Heaven, yet many, if not most Christians believe this. As a matter of fact, Jesus told both the Jews and the apostles that they couldn't go where He was going. So, "Getitwrong" is for someone else.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... there is nothing in the Bible that teaches that people go to Heaven ...

There's only two choices, and you don't have to go to "heaven".

We All Choose.
Bobby Jo

 

[Getitright]

There's only two choices, and you don't have to go to "heaven".

We All Choose.
Bobby Jo

choose what?

 

[Bobby Jo]

choose what?

... choose to believe ALL THE LIES YOU WANT.

As for me, if Scripture tells us what to expect then who knows more than GOD? Certainly your liars don't.
Bobby Jo

 

[Getitright]

... choose to believe ALL THE LIES YOU WANT.

As for me, if Scripture tells us what to expect then who knows more than GOD? Certainly your liars don't.
Bobby Jo

show me where God said people go to Heaven

 

[Bobby Jo]

show me where God said people go to Heaven

Why do you ask for something you will not accept? Do you want to ARGUE; WASTE MY TIME; or MAKE YOURSELF SEEM WISE?

Prverbs 24:5 Answer a fool according to his folly,

lest he be wise in his own eyes.​

You've chosen your liars, so believe them and share in their punishment.
Bobby Jo

 

[Getitright]

Why do you ask for something you will not accept? Do you want to ARGUE; WASTE MY TIME; or MAKE YOURSELF SEEM WISE?

Prverbs 24:5 Answer a fool according to his folly,

lest he be wise in his own eyes.​

You've chosen your liars, so believe them and share in their punishment.
Bobby Jo

You didn't answer the question. That's because there is no passage. So, who is believing lies?

 

[Bobby Jo]

You didn't answer the question. That's because there is no passage. So, who is believing lies?

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. -- Donald Rumsfeld​

YOU apparently asserted either what you DON'T KNOW, and/or what you're TOLD.


Thus the FALSE Teacher!
Bobby Jo

 

[marks]

And this was stated during a time when the power of God was not also being demonstrated, Marks?

I don't understand what you are asking me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You need to read the passage a little closer from the original, Christophany.

In the Greek, the passage reads καὶ διὰ τοῦτο πέμπει αὐτοῖς ὁ θεὸς ἐνέργειαν πλάνης εἰς τὸ πιστεῦσαι αὐτοὺς τῷ ψεύδει. "And because of this, God is sending them (present tense) the demonic works of error." Paul was referring to something that was happening at the time, in present tense.

Hi HIH,

Are you quoting from Alexandrian on this?

I'm showing:



?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, but the point is that you are citing a passage as if it were solely about the future, when in reality it was about his present, during a time when the Living God was (as always) proving Himself greater in power than the enemy, just as He always has throughout history.

Again, your position is not supported by scripture, and despite not intending to, it is actually heretical. It insinuates that the Lord will condone Satan proving to the world that he is more powerful than the Living God. This cannot be supported by any Biblical account, although maybe I could be wrong (but I'm not). But if you can provide a case from scripture where God allowed this, I would be willing to listen. But unless you can, your position is based only on faulty interpretation, not historical precedent.

Regardless of 2 Thessalonians, I would still question where you see true signs and wonders prophesied in the Bible for the time before the end of the age.

God will allow Satan to deceive the people of the world, according to the prophecies in Revelation, and false christs and prophets according to the Gospel.

But no where do we see the return of signs and wonders among God's people. Many seem to believe this will happen. What should we make of the fact that the Bible is silent about this?

Much love!