A different take on signs and wonders.

[Hidden In Him]

I don't understand what you are asking me.

Much love!

I forgot myself.

Hi HIH,

Are you quoting from Alexandrian on this?

Yes. Both Vaticanus and Alexandrinus, which I regard as the two strongest texts, by far. The reading in both these, as well as UBS and numerous others, is πέμπει (indicative present active). The Greek online Bible is using the same sources:
Greek Bible

But no where do we see the return of signs and wonders among God's people. Many seem to believe this will happen. What should we make of the fact that the Bible is silent about this?

Not completely silent. As I stated elsewhere, Joel 2:28 (the entirely of Joel Chapter 2 actually) and Revelations 18:24 make it clear that there will be prophets in great abundance in the earth in the last days, and that they will pronounce judgments in the earth (Joel 2:31). Mark 16:17-18 still holds true as well, and yet is not being fulfilled the way it should be or will be.

But I think faith in Joel 2:28 coming pass is at the heart of the issue. God intended that in the end-times His people would be hearing from His Spirit continually, and the Spirit has indeed been speaking to the churches with a great deal of visions and dreams, for those who have ears to hear it. But for those who do not, they rely only on what their faithless ears (not you, just people) think they can trust. It forces a reliance on hearing His voice, and this calls for walking in a true, Spirit-filled relationship with Him. Many just want to go to church a few times a week, and this will never cut it in the times that are coming.

P.S. I have very little time right now. I shouldn't even be posting this if I were being obedient. But if you post, I will try and get back to you in a week or two if possible, God willing.

God bless!

 

[marks]

Yes. Both Vaticanus and Alexandrinus, which I regard as the two strongest texts, by far. The reading in both these, as well as UBS and numerous others, is πέμπει (indicative present active). The Greek online Bible is using the same sources:
Greek Bible

OK. I personally think the Majority Mss qualifies according to Scripture, that God preserves His word to all generations, while the Critical Text does not qualify, having been "lost in the sands of time" for like 1000 years. And then there are all the variations between the V and A, and the others, but I don't want to get into all that.

So regardless, any time I see variants affecting the understanding of the passage, I always look for affirming texts that don't show variants. With one exception, I've found that there is always another passage or passages that confirm the correct understanding.

In this instance, again, if you don't use this passage due to the variant, you still have Matthew and Revelation that declare deceiving signs and wonders, and nowhere that declares there will be signs and wonders performed by believers near the end of the age. (excepting the 2 witnesses, depending on what you think about that.)

and Revelations 18:24 make it clear

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Much like Jesus talking about the blood of everyone from Abel on down being on the Jews. But however you think of this, that there may be prophets and saints being slain by the Harlot in that time, this isn't the same thing as saying that the church will be performing signs and wonders.

Those who are looking for signs and wonders, the only ones I see in the Bible will deceive.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But I think faith in Joel 2:28 coming pass is at the heart of the issue. God intended that in the end-times His people would be hearing from His Spirit continually, and the Spirit has indeed been speaking to the churches with a great deal of visions and dreams,

Joel 2
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Acts 2
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Much love!

 

[marks]

Not completely silent. As I stated elsewhere, Joel 2:28 (the entirely of Joel Chapter 2 actually) and Revelations 18:24 make it clear that there will be prophets in great abundance in the earth in the last days, and that they will pronounce judgments in the earth (Joel 2:31). Mark 16:17-18 still holds true as well, and yet is not being fulfilled the way it should be or will be.

I'd say completely silent.

I can't see you making an exegetical case from any of those passages for what you claim.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Regardless of 2 Thessalonians, I would still question where you see true signs and wonders prophesied in the Bible for the time before the end of the age.

God will allow Satan to deceive the people of the world, according to the prophecies in Revelation, and false christs and prophets according to the Gospel.

But no where do we see the return of signs and wonders among God's people. Many seem to believe this will happen. What should we make of the fact that the Bible is silent about this?

Much love!

Hi Marks,
Let me take a bit of a stab at this...
What the Bible does promise is still a bit of a mystery, But the words from scripture I would use is the fulness of Christ in the believer. Read Eph 4 to see this concept.

Jesus also states: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (John 14:12)
Now this promise was not exclusive to the apostolic era only, nor is it exclusive to the end times either, But a promise to all believers, which should raise the question why not? for most believers today are not seeing this.

Malachi 3:16-4:3 speaks of the end time gift of discerning of spirits. This will lead to Elijah's coming, (Malachi 4:5).

Then there are all the "Birth" prophecies. The end of the age is known as birth pangs, Rev. 12 speaks of offspring, and the firstborn, What are these referring to in your estimation? Let me elaborate on this a bit. History has had three ages, spanning roughly 2000 years each. The first is the age of the Father, and ended in the birth of Isaac/Jacob. The second is the age of the Son from Jacob to Jesus the Son of God, the third from the birth of the church at Pentecost, to the final Birth of the Spirit???? It is a Mystery as to the full ramifications, But even John the Apostle acknowledged this in 1 John 3:1-3.

So When Paul speaks of the fulness of Christ this eventual outcome is what he is talking about prophetically. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Eph. 4:13) Obviously it has not yet happened as there is still division in the church, and the Unity of the Spirit has not come in fulness. That Perfect has not come in yet that he speaks of in 1 cor. 13, which I quoted here earlier. This is when all the true believers who have a relationship with Christ from all denominations and creeds see each other as part of the whole of the Body of Christ hence the gift of seeing.

This is not something theology will teach, the Holy Spirit must reveal. There is no formula and it is not man's intellect that discerns, But the mind of Christ. Ask Him to teach you, If you Know Him, and he will, that is why I stress the prayer found at the beginning of Ephesians (1:17-end of chapter) as this will open the Book of Ephesians and the prophetic implications spoken of there. It is the most under appreciated prophetic texts of scripture, because the prophetic implications are Spiritually discerned.

God Bless.

 

[marks]

This is not something theology will teach, the Holy Spirit must reveal.

Certainly the Holy Spirit reveals what is in Scripture, and also, we answer the question, is this in Scripture, or is it not?

What the Bible does promise is still a bit of a mystery,

Do you mean this in the English sense, something we can't quite figure out without a bit of a puzzle, or in the Koine Greek sense of musterion, something we can't know without divine revelation?

Jesus also states: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (John 14:12)

If you look at the context of when this was said, and to whom, and what was happening at that time, you will realize that this is something that was put into abeyance along with the kingdom age for Israel.

17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Everthing in order . . . this is fulfilled with God collects His people together. This is not a prophecy of the spiritual gifts of the gentile church. Look at the overall message of Malachi.

14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

This is an answer to the attitudes of the people.

Something to point out about Ephesians 4 . . .

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Reaching unity, that we "henceforth be no more children . . . carried about with every wind of doctrine", this come BEFORE . . .

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Unity isn't the destination, unity is the beginning point.

God intends for us to attain unity to so we can begin to properly teach each other, and build each other up.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Certainly the Holy Spirit reveals what is in Scripture, and also, we answer the question, is this in Scripture, or is it not?

The Human mind without the guidance and leadership of the Holy Spirit will and does eventually lead to confusion and division because of Human Pride. It is only when we as believers reach the point of Ezekiel and can say "LORD, Thou knowest..." that we can begin to be taught properly by the Spirit that inspired the writers of those scriptures.

Do you mean this in the English sence, something we can't quite figure out without a bit of a puzzle, or in the Koine Greek sense of musterion, something we can't know without divine revelation?

In the latter sense, No Mystery can be figured out by the mind of man, or for that matter the demons and devil in hell. For they are carnal minds. Again, I will point the readers to 1 Cor. chapters 2-3. Paul uses therein what is known as "socratic ignorance", although his is founded upon the base assumption of Christ and Him Crucified. Socratic ignorance in the philosophical sense leads only to never arriving at the truth, But Pauline ignorance leads to being taught by the Holy Ghost. This concept is largely lost in theological circles.

Unity isn't the destination, unity is the beginning point.

Correct. to put it more succinctly, the Fulness of Christ leads to the unity of the Spirit, which leads to the joining of Truth and Love, (Capitalization intended) In the Body which edifies. What you need to see is that the the teaching is no longer done by men when the fulness of Christ comes but by the Holy Spirit, as the fivefold ministries are no more as per verse 11-12. Or as Christ said, call no man rabbi, for we are all brethren. (Matthew 23:8)

If you look at the context of when this was said, and to whom, and what was happening at that time, you will realize that this is something that was put into abeyance along with the kingdom age for Israel.

Everything in order . . . this is fulfilled with God collects His people together. This is not a prophecy of the spiritual gifts of the gentile church. Look at the overall message of Malachi.

Is the church not the "people of God"? Are we not gathered together in the final harvest? In a sense you are contradicting yourself. In Christ Jesus there is neither Jew nor Greek, and we, whether Jew or Greek in Christ Jesus are now the "house of God" (1 Peter 4:17). Now mind you, I am not advocating replacement theology, But I am saying this sort of over division (hyper dispensationalism) makes the Word of God of none effect. Look at the context of WHEN this occurs, Before Elijah comes. When Does Elijah come? Before Christ to prepare the way.... correct? Was John the baptist Elijah? He could have been, but Israel rejected him. Who does Elijah preach to, the Children of Israel, therefore, the People prophesied of in this verse are still referring to the church, which is the current house of God. In other words. you can rejoice, because we are his treasured possession, a people who knew him not have become His people. How Great and gracious is our God!

We need to learn to rightly divide the word of God, Not Overly divide it as hyper-dispensationalism does, or under divide it as Legalism does. This rightly dividing of scripture comes by the Holy Ghost, And when He begins to teach you the Word of God comes to life and the depth and riches therein begin to transform you into the fulness of Christ. Do You understand this? You will then begin to see which prophecies apply to us as Christians in the Old testament as well, and what applies to the nation of Israel in the future.

 

[marks]

The Human mind without the guidance and leadership of the Holy Spirit will and does eventually lead to confusion and division because of Human Pride. It is only when we as believers reach the point of Ezekiel and can say "LORD, Thou knowest..." that we can begin to be taught properly by the Spirit that inspired the writers of those scriptures.

OK. Just the same, the question remains, is it actually in the Bible, or do we surmise based on what we think?

Is the church not the "people of God"? Are we not gathered together in the final harvest?

This sounds like philosophical reasoning.

Is the church the poeple of God? Yes. Is the church "the only people of God" or "all the people of God"? No.

In a sense you are contradicting yourself. In Christ Jesus there is neither Jew nor Greek, and we, whether Jew or Greek in Christ Jesus are now the "house of God" (1 Peter 4:17). Now mind you, I am not advocating replacement theology, But I am saying this sort of over division (hyper dispensationalism) makes the Word of God of none effect. Look at the context of WHEN this occurs, Before Elijah comes. When Does Elijah come? Before Christ to prepare the way.... correct? Was John the baptist Elijah? He could have been, but Israel rejected him. Who does Elijah preach to, the Children of Israel, therefore, the People prophesied of in this verse are still referring to the church, which is the current house of God. In other words. you can rejoice, because we are his treasured possession, a people who knew him not have become His people. How Great and gracious is our God!

We need to learn to rightly divide the word of God, Not Overly divide it as hyper-dispensationalism does, or under divide it as Legalism does. This rightly dividing of scripture comes by the Holy Ghost, And when He begins to teach you the Word of God comes to life and the depth and riches therein begin to transform you into the fulness of Christ. Do You understand this? You will then begin to see which prophecies apply to us as Christians in the Old testament as well, and what applies to the nation of Israel in the future.

Where in any of this is a prophesied return of signs and wonders?

I wonder?

No sign!

And it does seem you equate the church with Israel. For anyone who does that I have this question . . . where in the Promised land will the Gentiles have inheritance?

Much love!

 

[Heart2Soul]

Regardless of 2 Thessalonians, I would still question where you see true signs and wonders prophesied in the Bible for the time before the end of the age.

God will allow Satan to deceive the people of the world, according to the prophecies in Revelation, and false christs and prophets according to the Gospel.

But no where do we see the return of signs and wonders among God's people. Many seem to believe this will happen. What should we make of the fact that the Bible is silent about this?

Much love!

That's because they quit writing about them not because they don't happen. My point is when they completed putting the Bible together then everything afterwards just never gets mentioned.
Kind of like the world just stopped all of a sudden.
Remember the 70 disciples who came to Paul and reported their success in casting out demons?
What about those who have been called by God to be His minister and to be His vessel that He might manifest His power through?
Why serve a religion that has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof?
Would God leave us defenseless against an enemy who is here to kill, steal and destroy us?
Not by might, not by power (wealth and political status), but by my Spirit...thus saith the Lord.
If you have the faith of a grain of mustard seed you can say to this mountain be thou removed and cast into the sea and it shall be.
Why would we need this kind of faith? To believe in miracles to heal? To save? To provide and protect?
It's just so hard for me to comprehend anyone believing there are no miracles, signs and wonders.
Jesus said to look to the heavens and there will be signs and wonders to know when His return is near.

 

[marks]

That's because they quit writing about them not because they don't happen. My point is when they completed putting the Bible together then everything afterwards just never gets mentioned.
Kind of like the world just stopped all of a sudden.

Then that leaves us to fill in the silence, but that's what's happening, we are filling the silence. I don't see signs and wonders after a certain point in the Biblical narrative. I look at those who were with Paul who weren't healed, and I wonder why that would be?

Remember the 70 disciples who came to Paul and reported their success in casting out demons?

Jesus, not Paul . . .

Luke 10
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

What about those who have been called by God to be His minister and to be His vessel that He might manifest His power through?

God speed! But does this mean that unless we are doing signs and wonders, God isn't working through us?

Why serve a religion that has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof?

There is no power unless there are signs and wonders? I would disagree!

Would God leave us defenseless against an enemy who is here to kill, steal and destroy us?

Greater is He who is within you than he that is in the world. We are anything but defenseless, signs and wonders aside.

Not by might, not by power (wealth and political status), but by my Spirit...thus saith the Lord.

I'm not talking spiritual gifts, these continue, just the signs and wonders, these were in the kingdom gospel time, and in the end times, there will be lying signs and wonders.

If you have the faith of a grain of mustard seed you can say to this mountain be thou removed and cast into the sea and it shall be.

Why would we need this kind of faith? To believe in miracles to heal? To save? To provide and protect?

The example given was to be able to forgive.

It's just so hard for me to comprehend anyone believing there are no miracles, signs and wonders.
Jesus said to look to the heavens and there will be signs and wonders to know when His return is near.

I'm not saying there are no miracles, only that we don't see the signs and wonders sort, not since the kingdom was put into abeyance. And the signs and wonders that are prophesied for the end times, we're told they will be lies, and will deceive.

Luke 21:25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;"

Much love!

 

[Heart2Soul]

Then that leaves us to fill in the silence, but that's what's happening, we are filling the silence. I don't see signs and wonders after a certain point in the Biblical narrative. I look at those who were with Paul who weren't healed, and I wonder why that would be?



Jesus, not Paul . . .

Luke 10
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.



God speed! But does this mean that unless we are doing signs and wonders, God isn't working through us?



There is no power unless there are signs and wonders? I would disagree!


Greater is He who is within you than he that is in the world. We are anything but defenseless, signs and wonders aside.



I'm not talking spiritual gifts, these continue, just the signs and wonders, these were in the kingdom gospel time, and in the end times, there will be lying signs and wonders.



The example given was to be able to forgive.

[quoteIt's just so hard for me to comprehend anyone believing there are no miracles, signs and wonders.
Jesus said to look to the heavens and there will be signs and wonders to know when His return is near.

I'm not saying there are no miracles, only that we don't see the signs and wonders sort, not since the kingdom was put into abeyance. And the signs and wonders that are prophesied for the end times, we're told they will be lies, and will deceive.

Luke 21:25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;"

Much love![/QUOTE]
If you get a chance read this and tell me what you think...
Miracles, Signs, Wonders - Holman Bible Dictionary - Bible Dictionary

 

[marks]

If you get a chance read this and tell me what you think...
Miracles, Signs, Wonders - Holman Bible Dictionary - Bible Dictionary

I see a difference between where the Bible speaks of work and ability (ergon and dunamis) and "signs and wonders". I look at where this expression "signs and wonders" appears, and the context, and the descriptions surrounding.

Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

The signs and wonders I'm thinking of are Jesus healing the 1000's who came to Him . . . "all who came to Him". Everyone in Peter's shadow healed. Paul's hanky passed around, and all are healed. These sorts of things.

That these were to authenticate to Jesus and the Apostles to the fledgling church.

After Israel rejected Jesus (Acts 28) signs and wonders ceased from the New Testament narrative, though gifts of the Spirit including miracles did not.

Much love!

 

[Bobby Jo]

... No Mystery can be figured out by the mind of man ...

GOD said: Come let us reason together.

YOU say: Come let us tell you what to believe.


I believe GOD.
Bobby Jo

 

[Getitright]

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. -- Donald Rumsfeld​

YOU apparently asserted either what you DON'T KNOW, and/or what you're TOLD.


Thus the FALSE Teacher!
Bobby Jo

Again, you provided no Scripture. Who is believing the lies?

 

[Bobby Jo]

Again, you provided no Scripture. Who is believing the lies?

Re-Post:

Why do you ask for something you will not accept? Do you want to ARGUE; WASTE MY TIME; or MAKE YOURSELF SEEM WISE?

Prverbs 24:5 Answer a fool according to his folly,

lest he be wise in his own eyes.​

You've chosen your liars, so believe them and share in their punishment.
Bobby Jo​

 

[David H.]

After Israel rejected Jesus (Acts 28) signs and wonders ceased from the New Testament narrative, though gifts of the Spirit including miracles did not.

This is a supposition on your part. Have you read any of the early church writings? The Miracles signs and wonders never ceased, they are just not recorded in the scriptures, because apart from Acts, the canon of scripture is not a historical record of the church. Here is a link to an article on this subject.
https://www1.cbn.com/signs-and-wonders-early-post-apostolic-era

GOD said: Come let us reason together.

YOU say: Come let us tell you what to believe.

Here is what the Holy Spirit says through Paul the Apostle:
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Cor. 1:18-25)

So No I say Go and be taught by the Holy Spirit the one who inspired scripture in the first place. He is a wonderful teacher and will lead you into all truth, as He is the Spirit of Truth. Wouldn't you rather drink the living water from His fountain?

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor. 2:12-16)

 

[David H.]

Where in any of this is a prophesied return of signs and wonders?

Your looking with the wrong kinds of eyes, as they have been blinded as is the premise of this post. Read the verses I quoted above to Bobbyjo from 1 cor. 2.... You are looking with natural eyes at what can be discerned spiritually only, this will never work and you will forever live not knowing the depth and riches of His Word. What You need is an epiphany like Paul had in Romans 11:33... O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! This is a wonderful experience few ever have, and is a great sign and wonder in and of itself to an individual believer. This is the impetus for why I declare the salvation of Christ despite the opposition I get online to doing so. In The Hopes that someone can share in that depth and riches of the Wisdom and knowledge of God, But the Obstacle is always the natural man and the mind of man. Whether that come in the form of textualism or Skepticism. Both come from the natural carnal mind.

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Romans 8:6)
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1 Cor. 3:3)

May God richly bless you!

 

[marksman]

After reading about 5 or so pages of debate on whether signs and wonders and gifts of the Spirit are still occurring on another thread here, I thought I would chime in with a post that has a slightly different view.

Heavenly Father grant me the unction to speak what you are showing me, May your will be done in Jesus Name, Amen.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:29)

Earlier on this forum I have said that the gift of discerning of the spirits has been nullified in this day and age. I Believe this is of God's doing, and by his will that the church is in a state of flux and uncertainty over the issues. We see these sorts of debates ad infinitum online with little or no resolution ever, and they include not just this debate on cessationism and continuism of the gifts of the spirit, but also on many other divides.

I Believe the gifts of the Spirit have and do continue, save the gift of discerning of spirits which has been withheld from this generation. In Other words, God has chosen to make us Blind, That in the end we will all desire to see.

To some this blindness manifests in not seeing the gifts of the spirit, and to others it comes in the form of accepting all signs and wonders whether true or false as gifts of the spirit. In this regard both sides on this debate are blind. One is Blind to the gifts existence, while the other is largely blind to the existence of false signs and wonders, and are blindly deceived, and in some cases deceiving themselves. These are hard words for both sides.

But as I said, there is a reason for this, and that is that faith comes not by seeing, As the opening verse alludes to. Hebrews 11:1 states "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." This Blindness is there for the purpose of making us desire this final outpouring of the gift of the discernment of spirits, the eyesalve of God as spoken of in Revelation. Until we whether continuationist or charismatic come to see this need together we will continue to squabble, and this squabbling is part and parcel to us coming to desire the gift of seeing.

This is why this final outpouring of the gift of discerning of spirits is so vital and to be sought for by all involved. I would think even the fundamentalist has to agree that we as a church are in dire need of this, and instead of condemning the charismatic, they should be asking why they are not seeing, Just as the charismatic who condemns the fundamentalist for not seeing should pray that they should come to see what the fundamentalist has a controversy about, as to the seducing spirits involved. This is the unity of the Spirit. This is not compromise, but rather Humility and Love for brothers and sisters who are diverse from one another.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1 Cor. 13: 8-10)

I Post these verses with the following questions for both sides, for the Charismatic, Do You acknowledge that there is a time when these things shall pass away, and that your prophecies may fail? and for the Fundamentalist, Has that "perfect come in" yet which is when these gifts will cease? Please think about this. Let the words convict you.

For His Glory.

The problem is not the question. The problem is the answer. Those that believe any of the gifts no longer exist do so on an assumption made by them that has no backing in scripture. They have conjured up an answer that is convenient for them and absolves them from having to submit to the will of God in the supernatural.

They interpret that which is perfect has come as the written word of God. Now that we have that we don't need the supernatural. Pure speculation and not one scrap of evidence. How do we know? Simple. The supernatural has been happening forever and a day as long as the church does not sit on it and stop it happening.

If the church says it is not going to or doesn't happen then it won't happen. If the church says they are as valid today as when the NTC rose to power, then it will happen. You get what you believe for. Usually, a church without the supernatural is a dead church. But don't worry as it says the dead in Christ shall rise first.

 

[dev553344]

After reading about 5 or so pages of debate on whether signs and wonders and gifts of the Spirit are still occurring on another thread here, I thought I would chime in with a post that has a slightly different view.

Heavenly Father grant me the unction to speak what you are showing me, May your will be done in Jesus Name, Amen.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:29)

Earlier on this forum I have said that the gift of discerning of the spirits has been nullified in this day and age. I Believe this is of God's doing, and by his will that the church is in a state of flux and uncertainty over the issues. We see these sorts of debates ad infinitum online with little or no resolution ever, and they include not just this debate on cessationism and continuism of the gifts of the spirit, but also on many other divides.

I Believe the gifts of the Spirit have and do continue, save the gift of discerning of spirits which has been withheld from this generation. In Other words, God has chosen to make us Blind, That in the end we will all desire to see.

To some this blindness manifests in not seeing the gifts of the spirit, and to others it comes in the form of accepting all signs and wonders whether true or false as gifts of the spirit. In this regard both sides on this debate are blind. One is Blind to the gifts existence, while the other is largely blind to the existence of false signs and wonders, and are blindly deceived, and in some cases deceiving themselves. These are hard words for both sides.

But as I said, there is a reason for this, and that is that faith comes not by seeing, As the opening verse alludes to. Hebrews 11:1 states "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." This Blindness is there for the purpose of making us desire this final outpouring of the gift of the discernment of spirits, the eyesalve of God as spoken of in Revelation. Until we whether continuationist or charismatic come to see this need together we will continue to squabble, and this squabbling is part and parcel to us coming to desire the gift of seeing.

This is why this final outpouring of the gift of discerning of spirits is so vital and to be sought for by all involved. I would think even the fundamentalist has to agree that we as a church are in dire need of this, and instead of condemning the charismatic, they should be asking why they are not seeing, Just as the charismatic who condemns the fundamentalist for not seeing should pray that they should come to see what the fundamentalist has a controversy about, as to the seducing spirits involved. This is the unity of the Spirit. This is not compromise, but rather Humility and Love for brothers and sisters who are diverse from one another.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1 Cor. 13: 8-10)

I Post these verses with the following questions for both sides, for the Charismatic, Do You acknowledge that there is a time when these things shall pass away, and that your prophecies may fail? and for the Fundamentalist, Has that "perfect come in" yet which is when these gifts will cease? Please think about this. Let the words convict you.

For His Glory.

I think people place limits on themselves, and that stops the gifts of the holy spirit. People that think the gifts have ended have placed that limit on themselves. To me it's limiting their experiences with the supernatural. If you think all supernatural has ceased, then that's for you, you shouldn't try and say it applies to everyone. Just yourself. That's my take on it. Cheers, and a fellow Christian love to you!

 

[David H.]

Addressing the OP only.
you're correct on the gifts, they have not stop, and here's why, you said it, listen to yourself, "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away".

see these things may vanish from the person who don't believe. but as said "Charity never faileth" see that semicolon afterward, it seperates "charty from the rest of the verse. now lets see "CHARITY", see why the Gifts faileth NOT. scripture, 1 Corinthians 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." (see "charity" there remember that, ok)
1 Corinthians 13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."

now the revelation of "Charity". charity is "LOVE", correct. ok, question, "what... STOP, not what is "Charity", but "WHO" is Charity?" answer, God, 1 John 4:8 "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." BINGO. see, when one "knoweth not God", then, as said, "prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away". see, when one have not God/Charity, as the apostle Paul siad, "speak with the tongues of men and of angels", vanish, and have .. get this all "faith" to move mountians ... nothing. see, without God you can do nothing, listen, Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." understand now.

now to your other concern,
correct, this is by God design, not that he's the author of confusion, but to bring about the thirst for his word, for there is a famine in the Land.

and note this was foretold of these debates within the church, listen first NT, then OT. 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
2 Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." see this is why one need to show scripture from where one belif are comming from, and let the hearer decide. for if they are his sheep, he said, "my sheep hear my voice". if they hear not, by obeying his word, then they are not his sheep, and 2 Thessalonians 2:12 is in effect.

Now the OT, Isaiah 66:4 "I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not." BINGO, one might wnat to make a cross reference here with 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

Isaiah 66:5 "Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed."

well that is what you did, "said, Let the LORD be glorified". we as children of God must speak the TRUTH, and have the scriptures, the Word of God to back up what we say. after saying let them decide. as the scriptures states, 2 Corinthians 5:11 "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences." (it's the person decision to believe or not, it's their choice). why? Galatians 1:10 "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."

this is where I stand, tell the truth by thge scriptures, and let men decide.

Well said, sorry I missed your comment earlier. Do We truly hunger and thirst for righteousness? Do we truly see our need for the eysalve of God? Or are we self deceived and delusional saying we are "rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing" (Rev. 3:17)? The famine is there to show us our hunger, we need to respond to this with By seeking the manna of Heaven.