A Gospel Of John Phrase
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Welcome to the CB site John. Hope to read more of your thoughts...and others will of course.
You bring up a classic contentious verse that clearly exposes the trinitarian from the non-trinitarian, and then there are even splits within these two main camps of thought.
I'm a non-trinitarian.
Loosely, this verse speaks to the beginning of our known or used dimensions called time and space, provided by God. God intrinsically possessed his own unique, glorious, and all powerful logos - as his purpose, plans and thoughts/expressions and actions that caused and causes everything to exist including his Son and our Saviour. In fact his Son became the carrier/possessor of his Father's logos (at least major parts of it) within him...
Great Day...
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Hello John,
I’ll share with you my understanding.
In the beginning the Word existed with God, and was God as the Fathers expressive (heart/mind/will/emotion) Word.
In other words The Father spoke the word which was part of Him, and the Word (Yahweh spoke) created and formed the earths, and that Word came down and was made flesh and was the image (heart/mind/will/emotion) of the invisible God, the Father. The Father helps the Son, the Word of God, through the Holy Spirit of God when Jesus had been tempted in the flesh. Though inside of The fleshly man named Jesus inside of him was the Logos of God that came from heaven, living in the body of Jesus.
Really deep and interesting insights the Bible shares about the revelation.
Most may find the study to be boring, however I did go through this study using the Bible and scripture, and it covers this topic.
Thank you for your question,
Matthew Gallagher’
I’ll share with you my understanding.
In the beginning the Word existed with God, and was God as the Fathers expressive (heart/mind/will/emotion) Word.
In other words The Father spoke the word which was part of Him, and the Word (Yahweh spoke) created and formed the earths, and that Word came down and was made flesh and was the image (heart/mind/will/emotion) of the invisible God, the Father. The Father helps the Son, the Word of God, through the Holy Spirit of God when Jesus had been tempted in the flesh. Though inside of The fleshly man named Jesus inside of him was the Logos of God that came from heaven, living in the body of Jesus.
Really deep and interesting insights the Bible shares about the revelation.
Most may find the study to be boring, however I did go through this study using the Bible and scripture, and it covers this topic.
Thank you for your question,
Matthew Gallagher’
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.”
It is far from surprising that trinitarian scholars would prefer the 'God' translation at John 1:1c and ignore any other honest alternate. However, notice this:
Trinitarian Greek expert, W. E. Vine, (although, for obvious reasons, he chooses not to accept it as the proper interpretation) admits that the literal translation of John 1:1c is: “a god was the Word”. - p. 490, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Thomas Nelson, Inc., 1983 printing.
Professor C. H. Dodd, director of the New English Bible project, also admits this is a proper literal translation:
“A possible translation [for John 1:1c] ... would be, ‘The Word was a god.’ As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.” - Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, vol. 28, Jan. 1977.
The reason Prof. Dodd rejected “a god” as the actual meaning intended by John is simply because it upset his trinitarian interpretation of John’s Gospel!
Rev. J. W. Wenham wrote in his The Elements of New Testament Greek: “Therefore as far as grammar alone is concerned, such a sentence could be printed: θεὸς ἐστιν ὁ λόγος, which would mean either, ‘The Word is a god’, or, ‘The Word is the god’.” - p. 35, Cambridge University Press, 1965.
(Of course if you carefully, properly examine this study in the link below, you will find that the grammar really shows that ‘The Word was in John 1:1c a god’ is what John intended.)
Trinitarian NT scholar Prof. Murray J. Harris also admits that grammatically John 1:1c may be properly translated, ‘the Word was a god,’ but his trinitarian bias makes him claim that “John’s monotheism” will not allow such an interpretation. - p. 60, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992. However, his acknowledgment of the use of “god” for men at John 10:34-36 and the use of “god/gods” for angels, judges, and other men in the Hebrew OT Scriptures contradicts his above excuse for not accepting the literal translation. - p. 202, Jesus as God.
And Dr. J. D. BeDuhn in his Truth in Translation states about John 1:1c:
“ ‘And the Word was a god.’ The preponderance of evidence from Greek grammar… supports this translation.” - p. 132, University Press of America, Inc., 2003.
Trinitarian Dr. Robert Young admits that a more literal translation of John 1:1c is “and a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word” - p. 54, (‘New Covenant’ section), Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commentary, Baker Book House, 1977 printing.
And popular Bible scholar, author, and Bible translator, trinitarian Dr. William Barclay wrote: “You could translate [John 1:1c], so far as the Greek goes: ‘the Word was a God’; but it seems obvious that this is so much against the whole of the rest of the New Testament that it is wrong.” - p. 205, Ever yours, edited by C. L. Rawlins, Labarum Publ., 1985.
You see, in ancient times many of God’s servants had no qualms about using the word “god” or “gods” for godly men, kings, judges, and even angels.
New Testament Greek expert Joseph H. Thayer defines theos:
““θεός is used of whatever can in any respect be likened to God or resembles him in any way: Hebraistically, i.q. God’s representative or vicegerent, of magistrates and judges.” - p. 288, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.
To see the proof of John’s intended meaning of “a god” at John 1:1c, see my personal studies:
Examining the Trinity or Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.”
It is far from surprising that trinitarian scholars would prefer the 'God' translation at John 1:1c and ignore any other honest alternate. However, notice this:
Trinitarian Greek expert, W. E. Vine, (although, for obvious reasons, he chooses not to accept it as the proper interpretation) admits that the literal translation of John 1:1c is: “a god was the Word”. - p. 490, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Thomas Nelson, Inc., 1983 printing.
Professor C. H. Dodd, director of the New English Bible project, also admits this is a proper literal translation:
“A possible translation [for John 1:1c] ... would be, ‘The Word was a god.’ As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.” - Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, vol. 28, Jan. 1977.
The reason Prof. Dodd rejected “a god” as the actual meaning intended by John is simply because it upset his trinitarian interpretation of John’s Gospel!
Rev. J. W. Wenham wrote in his The Elements of New Testament Greek: “Therefore as far as grammar alone is concerned, such a sentence could be printed: θεὸς ἐστιν ὁ λόγος, which would mean either, ‘The Word is a god’, or, ‘The Word is the god’.” - p. 35, Cambridge University Press, 1965.
(Of course if you carefully, properly examine this study in the link below, you will find that the grammar really shows that ‘The Word was in John 1:1c a god’ is what John intended.)
Trinitarian NT scholar Prof. Murray J. Harris also admits that grammatically John 1:1c may be properly translated, ‘the Word was a god,’ but his trinitarian bias makes him claim that “John’s monotheism” will not allow such an interpretation. - p. 60, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992. However, his acknowledgment of the use of “god” for men at John 10:34-36 and the use of “god/gods” for angels, judges, and other men in the Hebrew OT Scriptures contradicts his above excuse for not accepting the literal translation. - p. 202, Jesus as God.
And Dr. J. D. BeDuhn in his Truth in Translation states about John 1:1c:
“ ‘And the Word was a god.’ The preponderance of evidence from Greek grammar… supports this translation.” - p. 132, University Press of America, Inc., 2003.
Trinitarian Dr. Robert Young admits that a more literal translation of John 1:1c is “and a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word” - p. 54, (‘New Covenant’ section), Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commentary, Baker Book House, 1977 printing.
And popular Bible scholar, author, and Bible translator, trinitarian Dr. William Barclay wrote: “You could translate [John 1:1c], so far as the Greek goes: ‘the Word was a God’; but it seems obvious that this is so much against the whole of the rest of the New Testament that it is wrong.” - p. 205, Ever yours, edited by C. L. Rawlins, Labarum Publ., 1985.
You see, in ancient times many of God’s servants had no qualms about using the word “god” or “gods” for godly men, kings, judges, and even angels.
New Testament Greek expert Joseph H. Thayer defines theos:
““θεός is used of whatever can in any respect be likened to God or resembles him in any way: Hebraistically, i.q. God’s representative or vicegerent, of magistrates and judges.” - p. 288, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.
To see the proof of John’s intended meaning of “a god” at John 1:1c, see my personal studies:
Examining the Trinity or Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity
Lambano
Well-Known Member
In Greek philosophy, the λόγος, ("Logos", The Word) is the organizing creative principle of creation. It's what keeps the universe in order and makes what is, is. It roughly corresponds with "Wisdom" in Proverbs 8:22-31...
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23“From everlasting I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth."
... and indeed Jewish sages contemporary with Jesus such as Philo of Alexandria associated Logos (or Wisdom personified) with God himself.
And then the creative organizing principle of the world became a flesh-and-blood man and dwelt among us. You can see some echoes of this in Colossians 1:15-17 and Colossians 2:9.
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23“From everlasting I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth."
... and indeed Jewish sages contemporary with Jesus such as Philo of Alexandria associated Logos (or Wisdom personified) with God himself.
And then the creative organizing principle of the world became a flesh-and-blood man and dwelt among us. You can see some echoes of this in Colossians 1:15-17 and Colossians 2:9.
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Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Great question John, the beginning is the beginning of creation, the Word is Jesus, called that because he is God's spokesman, and since Jesus (the Word) was the very first creation of God, with that beginning of creation he is right there with God.
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