A Moral Framework for Same Sex Unions?

[This Vale Of Tears]

This is my first post!!!

As we sit around Vale ready to condemn him as Job was condemned, I would just like to ask, if the person in question was in a heterosexual relationship and not married, would we feel the same way about them?

Don't get me wrong, I think it important to call sin a sin. I don't think anyone here disputes homosexual acts as a sin, or at least, if they do admit to it.. The question then becomes, how do we treat the sinner?

Jesus had a tendency not to lash out at sinners EXCEPT for the religious leaders who were suppose to represent him. Therefore, the approach should be to proclaim the good news that we need not live in sin, that is, by the power of Christ and leave it at that.

I have to admit, bringing children into the equation sure complicates things. That is a whole other thread by itself.

Nicely put.

Regarding bringing children into the equation, are you talking about the fact these ladies babysit my kids sometimes or just in general gay couples seeking to adopt a child?

 

[Suhar]

This is my first post!!!

As we sit around Vale ready to condemn him as Job was condemned,

[SIZE=medium]Could you come up with worse comparison then this one?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Job was suffering for no sin VOT is sinning, advocating sin and not suffering for it yet. What is the connection?[/SIZE]

 

[Wormwood]

The question of whether or not homosexuality is sin is not in dispute here. What I'm saying is that some practicing homosexuals show traces of grace in their lives, demonstrating through commendable personal conduct that they are in a pursuit of righteousness. A practicing homosexual who enters into a committed relationship, goes to church weekly, and maintains high moral standards and a perpetuates kindness to their fellow man is not the same as a sodomite living the party life, having sex with multiple partners, and doing drugs and booze. Yet you seem to lump them into one basket. I've seen how God works in people's lives to woo them to full epiphany and conversion of heart and it often doesn't happen in one grand gesture, but rather in gradual steps. Some, by their actions, demonstrate they are on a journey to know God and others aren't. They aren't all the same and I'm confident won't be judged the same.

I believe God's grace is at work in all people, but some choose not to respond to it. I think we have very different understandings of what it means to call Christ, "Lord." If a person is engaged in a perpetual relationship that God has deemed immoral and abhorrant, I don't know how you can claim such a person "maintains high moral standards." The problem I see here is that there is a strong sense of personal righteousness at work in your understanding of salvation. If a person is pretty good (according to cultural standards I suppose), then it seems submission to the clear commands of Scripture suddenly become optional.

Funny. I never once mentioned idolatry unless my Canaanite reference alluded to that because they also worshipped idols; I'll assume that's what you meant. I also never claimed that there's a version of homosexuality that's free from iniquity. What I am saying is that some forms of homosexuality show a misguided pursuit of God's righteousness and others make no attempt at it. What consigns us to perdition is the deliberate rejection of God's love and somebody who's in a committed same sex union isn't necessarily doing that. I've seen the fruits and evidence of God's work in the lives of these women; that they love God and are trying to follow him.

So do you have insight on the practices of homosexuals in Canaanite communities that is not related to idols? What exactly are you referring to then? Paul threw believers out of the church for sexual immorality. He seemed to have no concept that someone could be actively engaged in sexually immoral activities and be in pursuit of God's righteousness. This is why we need to confront such issues, because people should repent of them. If they see in Scripture that their lifestyle is opposed to the will of God and continue in it, then they are not in pursuit of God.

I'm glad you're honest with your homosexual friends. I've also expressed my beliefs and reservations about the lifestyle of my lesbian friends. What I'm not doing is imposing a standard upon them that I might not meet myself, the standard of perfection in my Christian walk with no shadow of deception. St. Paul informs us that we see in a mirror dimly, our understanding diminished. If we are deceived in one area of our lives but are otherwise trying to seek the face of God, can any of us be saved? Where is there room for grace that covers the shortfalls in our search for salvation? What if you're wrong in that the Catholic Church is the only pathway to salvation and you're outside of it? What if I'm wrong in that it's faith alone that saves and I've been trusting my works? Selene offered some profound and abbreviated advice that God will be the one to judge us and we should reserve that judgment to him.

This is such a frustrating argument...and one I find to be entirely unbiblical. Because I cannot live perfectly, I cannot make any judgements on the behavior of others who claim to be Christian. This is utter nonsense. Again, there is a difference between our "shortfalls" and those who see what God desires with our sexuality deliberately choose to live a daily lifestyle in opposition to those desires. I refuse to live in a sphere that says I should not be bold or hold convictions because I could be wrong...therefore just leave everyone alone because God will judge. This is not faith. Moreover, as you yourself have admitted, this homosexuality issue is not one that is unclear in Scripture. This is not like we are debating an issue like whether to eat meat or vegetables. We died to sin, how can we live in it any longer? This permissive, shoulder-shrugging attitude towards issues that are very clear in God's Word is not what I see God calling us toward.

You mentioned Mormonism with a clear inference that Mormon are on an errant path leading to eternal reprobation. I don't believe that any Mormon who is sincerely following Christ will be lost because of errors in their denomination's teaching because we embark on a dangerous path if we start divining what level of deception will make vain our hope for eternal life. Conveniently enough, it's those we perceive to be more deceived than us that are in jeopardy. This is very impious speculation, the kind of vain speech that Jesus cautioned us against. (Mt 12:36) I would wish upon Mormons the same ocean of grace I hope is accorded to me, that nobody who seeks God in sincerity of heart will be lost over misguided belief.

It's my firm and unshakable belief that grace covers a lot more than we think, that God is in passionate pursuit of every human being, that they may receive his love and live forever with him, and that mercy will have the final word.

Mormons aren't even monotheists. I don't know what to say here. I would encourage you to read 1 John again. Those who teach a message not pushed by the Apostles about Jesus are deemed "Antichrist" and Paul declares that those who preach a different Gospel than the one he preaches should be eternally condemned. These are not my words.

I am a huge advocate of grace. The Lord knows I need it. But Gods grace is not a cover-up for sin and those who think that it is license for sexual immorality or teaching false gospels are in terrible error.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Wormwood, you're right that the argument is frustrating which is why I think we should step back and look at the broader picture. I don't have to labor to convince you that God has a heart for the homosexuals, to reach them, to save them. But what we've been doing so far has not only not met with success at drawing homosexuals into the church, but has even done the disservice of pushing them away. Much of this is because we aren't even approaching the issue on a foundation of truth and prefer popular myths about homosexuality rather than what can be learned by a more scientific approach. Christians assure themselves that homosexuals choose the attraction they have, that it's a demon that can be bound in the name of Jesus, or that conditioning can reverse it. It's why I was glad when not only did Exodus International close up shop, but they were honest as to the reasons, that the assumptions their therapy were based upon were wrong. We need to have more of that, confessing that we have been lending credence to popular myths rather than the truth in regards to homosexuals. It's why I keep descrying that we talk miles and miles about homosexuals but we never seem to talk to them. Ignorance hinders our efforts to reach them.

Pope Francis's recent comments on this issue were salient, though very unpopular. We don't want to face the fact that we've come up short when it comes to reaching homosexuals and that animosity guised as love has placed all the blame on homosexuals' reticence and none of the blame on us. We seem to hail sinners with a Billy Graham "just as you are" but when it comes to homosexuals, "just as you are" is glaringly absent. Much of this is because we can't bring ourselves to admit to the deep seated, visceral repulsion we have for homosexuals. We know we are to love the sinner, but we don't want to see that some sinners are easier for us to love than others. It's even worse when it comes to pedophiles, not that I'm suggesting pedophiles should be allowed to indulge their desires, but rather making the larger point that sexuality is such a core paradigm to us that it invokes our deepest passions, including hatred. Hatred fuels ignorance which results in xenophobia, division, and ultimately a failure to be Christ to the sinners Christ came to save.

So what's the answer? We won't compromise the truth and we won't say that sin is not really sin, nor should we. The love we need is very much possible as demonstrated by St. Patrick who returned to Ireland to bring the gospel of Christ to the very people he loathed for kidnapping him as a youth. In regards to my lifelong lady friends, this is what I've done. I loved and accepted them, but still hold them to a moral standard even in a lifestyle that wasn't intended by God. I see the fingerprints of grace in their lives and know that God is at work in them. Maybe someday they'll fall under conviction and break up their union, or maybe that day will never happen in this lifetime. I see them as sojourners with me looking eagerly to the day when Christ glorifies us and makes us whole in both body and soul.

 

[marksman]

Christians assure themselves that homosexuals choose the attraction they have, that it's a demon that can be bound in the name of Jesus, or that conditioning can reverse it. It's why I was glad when not only did Exodus International close up shop, but they were honest as to the reasons, that the assumptions their therapy were based upon were wrong. We need to have more of that, confessing that we have been lending credence to popular myths rather than the truth in regards to homosexuals. It's why I keep descrying that we talk miles and miles about homosexuals but we never seem to talk to them. Ignorance hinders our efforts to reach them.

So how do you bring release and deliverance to people who have an unwanted same sex attraction?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

So how do you bring release and deliverance to people who have an unwanted same sex attraction?

That's an honest question, though difficult to answer because there are no easy answers. And that's been the problem, looking for easy solutions when none exist. We know that homosexuality can't be "cured" through exorcism, conditioning, "claiming a healing" or any other method we've tried. Sure God can cure homosexuals, but chooses not to, I believe, so his greater glory can be demonstrated in our weakness. We also can't give license to indulgence in the homosexual lifestyle. It's sin and always will be sin; that's incontrovertible.

The best answer lies in those homosexuals who have come to Christ and achieved victory over homosexuality. It's an ever present antagonist, like St. Paul's thorn in the flesh, but through prayer and growth, they've achieved ongoing prevalence over it. One of the keys is they've learned to find their identity in Christ and don't identify themselves as homosexuals. They will tell you they're Christians who occasionally struggle with homosexual desires, but they are not homosexuals. A transition has occurred in their thinking that puts Christ at the center of who they are, not their sexual orientation. These people are able to have families with a loving spouse of the opposite sex. So the good news is, yes there's an answer.

 

[marksman]

That's an honest question,

So when are you going to answer it? I didn't ask you for a thesis on the subject. I ask you how YOU bring deliverance to these people.

We know that homosexuality can't be "cured" through exorcism,

Do you and who is "we" ? Then you do not know very much. It is one of the tools that I use (successfully) to bring freedom from an unwanted same sex attraction.

And that's been the problem, looking for easy solutions when none exist.

I am not aware that those who are helping people free themselves from a same sex attraction ever claimed solutions were easy.

Sure God can cure homosexuals, but chooses not to, I believe, so his greater glory can be demonstrated in our weakness.

I am so glad that your God is not my God. My God sent Jesus to so that we could be delivered of all sin and unrighteousness and we can live our lives freed from the power of sin (John and Romans).

If God chooses not to free us from the power of sin, which leads to death, I can't see what the purpose of the cross is.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

So when are you going to answer it? I didn't ask you for a thesis on the subject. I ask you how YOU bring deliverance to these people.


Do you and who is "we" ? Then you do not know very much. It is one of the tools that I use (successfully) to bring freedom from an unwanted same sex attraction.


I am not aware that those who are helping people free themselves from a same sex attraction ever claimed solutions were easy.

You didn't even get to my answer, so great was your passion to ravage the preamble. You are furthermore deceiving yourself by claiming you are "helping" homosexuals by casting out imaginary demons. Exodus International was much the same way, thinking they were helping homosexuals by their conditioning therapy, but then finally having the intellectual honesty to admit it wasn't helping, but hurting. My answer is more mainstream in Christian thought because it has the most success stories behind it. When people understand their identity in Christ, they have freedom and victory. This is the primary method in Neil T. Anderson's books and it works because it's right out of the Bible. Your incantations and magic shows are nothing more than tricks that don't bring about lasting freedom because homosexuality isn't a demon to be cast out, it's a disorder in one's sexual orientation and as such, never really goes away. But victory over it can be achieved, not your way, but the Biblical way.

 

[FHII]

[in response to VOT saying, "we know homosexuals can't be cured through exorcism,"

Do you and who is "we" ? Then you do not know very much. It is one of the tools that I use (successfully) to bring freedom from an unwanted same sex attraction.

Marksman, do you perform exorcisms then?

 

[Selene]

You didn't even get to my answer, so great was your passion to ravage the preamble. You are furthermore deceiving yourself by claiming you are "helping" homosexuals by casting out imaginary demons. Exodus International was much the same way, thinking they were helping homosexuals by their conditioning therapy, but then finally having the intellectual honesty to admit it wasn't helping, but hurting. My answer is more mainstream in Christian thought because it has the most success stories behind it. When people understand their identity in Christ, they have freedom and victory. This is the primary method in Neil T. Anderson's books and it works because it's right out of the Bible. Your incantations and magic shows are nothing more than tricks that don't bring about lasting freedom because homosexuality isn't a demon to be cast out, it's a disorder in one's sexual orientation and as such, never really goes away. But victory over it can be achieved, not your way, but the Biblical way.

There is one person I know in my church who is struggling with homosexuality. He's a single guy, but he has ended his homosexual relationship with his partner a long time ago. He has not been in any relationship with anyone since then. He goes to church every day and even participates in the church retreat, praying to God. He told me that although he's not in any homosexual relationship, it's still a struggle for him because he still finds himself attracted to men rather than to women. However, praying and going to daily mass helps him in his struggle.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Yes, it can be done, living a chaste life and I admire those who try to do so. It's why I strongly disagree with the Catholic Church's decision to ban homosexuals from the priesthood which was an overreaction to the sex scandals and feeds into this lie that homosexuals are likely to be child molesters. From a clinical point of view, homosexuality and pedophilia are very different disorders and gay people are just as repulsed by sexual child abuse as any of the rest of us. The priesthood is suffering from a chronic shortage of new applicants, mostly because the pool of people with that kind of commitment is smaller than it's ever been. I still think it's a very good option to give to those men who have few options in life because of their homosexual leanings.

But the obvious question is, if it can be done, why can't my two friends do it? And knowing them as I do, the simple answer is that they love each other with the same sacrificial, committed love that is found in solid marriages. Asking them to give each other up would really be no different than asking a married couple to break up. There have been cases where a married couple found out they were siblings and didn't know it and that would be the closest equivalent I can think of, a union that's immoral on paper, but nonetheless an unbreakable bond has developed. It's why I said earlier that there aren't any easy answers to these dilemmas. I can't turn a blind eye to the fact that these unions are decisively outside of God's will and pattern for marriage, and yet I also can't ignore that these two women truly love each other and believe they are meant to live the rest of their lives together. It's why I posted this thread because I'm beside myself.

There is one person I know in my church who is struggling with homosexuality. He's a single guy, but he has ended his homosexual relationship with his partner a long time ago. He has not been in any relationship with anyone since then. He goes to church every day and even participates in the church retreat, praying to God. He told me that although he's not in any homosexual relationship, it's still a struggle for him because he still finds himself attracted to men rather than to women. However, praying and going to daily mass helps him in his struggle.

 

[Dodo_David]

And knowing them as I do, the simple answer is that they love each other with the same sacrificial, committed love that is found in solid marriages. Asking them to give each other up would really be no different than asking a married couple to break up.

Vale, I disagree. It isn't like asking a couple in a legitimate marriage to break up.

Through His written Word, our Heavenly Father has already rendered His verdict on the matter.

A sexual relationship between two people of the same gender isn't blessed by God, isn't acceptable for the Bride of Christ. It is sin, period.

So what if two lesbians feel as if their sexual relationship is godly? Their feelings aren't the standard that we are to use to judge right and wrong.

For a reason that I do not understand, some members of the universal Church have the wild idea that a person's feelings must never be hurt.
Thus, they make excuses for sinful behavior because they don't want to hurt the feelings of the one engaging in the sinful behavior.

It is one thing to minister to people struggling with homosexual feelings.
It is another thing to claim that a same-gender sexual relationship must be tolerated with the universal Church in order to spare the feelings of the one in the relationship.

Vale, you say, "I see the fingerprints of grace in their lives and know that God is at work in them."

Yet, their decision to remain in a sexual relationship with each other shows that they are resisting God's will, they are in a continued state of disobedience.

Has it ever occurred to you that you may be too emotionally attached to these women to be objective about their sinful lifestyle?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Has it ever occurred to you that you may be too emotionally attached to these women to be objective about their sinful lifestyle?

Yes.

 

[Dodo_David]

Has it ever occurred to you that you may be too emotionally attached to these women to be objective about their sinful lifestyle?

Yes.

If only everyone were as honest. Thank you, Vale. :)

 

[Wormwood]

Wormwood, you're right that the argument is frustrating which is why I think we should step back and look at the broader picture. I don't have to labor to convince you that God has a heart for the homosexuals, to reach them, to save them. But what we've been doing so far has not only not met with success at drawing homosexuals into the church, but has even done the disservice of pushing them away.

Like I said before, I think this is a misrepresentation of how many Christians are approaching the homosexuality issue. I have heard of no evangelical group that is "pushing them away." I think you are believing what you are told by the homosexual apologetic and not what is actually taking place. In reality, homosexuality is being embraced as a State recognized union by many areas of the country. Speaking against homosexuality is beginning to be viewed at "hate speech" in places such as Canada and will likely be viewed that way in America soon. Homosexual encounters are becoming prevalent in movies, and national TV networks. Soon I will have to explain to my children as I flip through TV channels why two men are groping each other on the screen. It is being taught to children in some public schools in sex education. Many of the major denominations are actually embracing homosexuality as entirely legitimate. Yet still, most evangelicals teach very strongly on the issue that the sin is an abomination but God loves the sinner. So how exactly are we "pushing them away?" By saying the activity is wrong in a culture that is welcoming it with open arms?

Much of this is because we aren't even approaching the issue on a foundation of truth and prefer popular myths about homosexuality rather than what can be learned by a more scientific approach. Christians assure themselves that homosexuals choose the attraction they have, that it's a demon that can be bound in the name of Jesus, or that conditioning can reverse it. It's why I was glad when not only did Exodus International close up shop, but they were honest as to the reasons, that the assumptions their therapy were based upon were wrong. We need to have more of that, confessing that we have been lending credence to popular myths rather than the truth in regards to homosexuals. It's why I keep descrying that we talk miles and miles about homosexuals but we never seem to talk to them. Ignorance hinders our efforts to reach them.

This is utter nonsense. Homosexuality is a BEHAVIOR, not a skin color or way someone is "born." We all have genetic predispositions and many of those we have to control or resist. Some are prone to alcoholism and some are naturally struggle with explosive anger. Does this justify either? No. I have no doubt that soon brain scans will show pedophiles have different brain activities that lead them to be attracted to children (which came first? I think studies do show that early homosexual encounters rather than genetic predispositions are the primary determining factor for homosexual behaviors. Not that it really matters though). Does this JUSTIFY child molestation? The TRUTH in regard to homosexuals is that this is a behavior that is not forced upon them. I am a heterosexual. Does this mean my natural desires should be justified in any and every way? Does it justify me lusting after every attractive woman I see or sleeping with women that I am not married to? No. What I do with my body is a behavior and my genetic predispositions do not MANDATE any behavior or make me one thing or another. Jesus told his disciples that if they could not marry one woman for life, they should never marry. If this is true with heterosexual unions...that you embrace God's way or you stay celibate, how much more with homosexuality!? If you cannot embrace God's design for your sexuality and the commitments behind that union, they you should be a eunuch for the Kingdom of God. You have been duped by the mentality that is being pushed today that a person is homosexual, just as a person is black, white, nearsighted or disabled. Wrong. Homosexuality is a behavior. We talk ABOUT the behavior because they are pushing it as natural, innocent and evil to speak against. I'm simply not buying the "victim" card for those who embrace a behavior. They need to know the love of Christ, his grace and repent.

It's even worse when it comes to pedophiles, not that I'm suggesting pedophiles should be allowed to indulge their desires, but rather making the larger point that sexuality is such a core paradigm to us that it invokes our deepest passions, including hatred. Hatred fuels ignorance which results in xenophobia, division, and ultimately a failure to be Christ to the sinners Christ came to save.

Yes, well that is the rub isn't it. We have very different ideas of what it means to "be Christ." "Loving" people into hell is not being Christ (I do believe Paul said something about love "rejoicing with the truth" so I think your idea of "love" is not substantiated by Scripture in this case). Jesus called people to turn from evil, to "repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand" and demanded a radical commitment to his leading. Yes, in a culture that ostracized sinners as outcasts, Jesus lovingly reached out to them. But he did not wink at sin or pretend that sexually immorality was something people couldn't help and he's just love them anyway. Rather, he told people that if their eye caused them to sin to pluck it out. He claimed that anyone who led a little one into sin, they would be better off with a millstone hung around their neck and be thrown into the sea (Woe to those who celebrate that this behavior is being embraced and displayed on national programming). He told the Pharisees who felt they needed no repentance or to respond to John's baptism that they would die in their sins. Yes, we have very different understandings of the message of Christ to a world justifying itself in its sin and rebellion against God. Again, I think the homosexual apologetic has convinced people like you that anyone who says their sexual activities are evil or against the will of God are "homophobic, xenophobic, divisive, unloving" etc. Christ was able to love people without winking at sin. I suggest you do the same with your friends.

 

[marksman]

I ask you how YOU bring deliverance to these people.

Still waiting for an answer to this question. I guess that your reluctance to answer suggests that you don't bring deliverance to these people. That being the case, I prefer the way I do it to the way you don't do it as Charles Finney said to person who was criticising him for his methods.

This is utter nonsense. Homosexuality is a BEHAVIOR, not a skin color or way someone is "born." We all have genetic predispositions and many of those we have to control or resist. Some are prone to alcoholism and some are naturally struggle with explosive anger. Does this justify either? No. I have no doubt that soon brain scans will show pedophiles have different brain activities that lead them to be attracted to children (which came first? I think studies do show that early homosexual encounters rather than genetic predispositions are the primary determining factor for homosexual behaviors. Not that it really matters though). Does this JUSTIFY child molestation? The TRUTH in regard to homosexuals is that this is a behavior that is not forced upon them. I am a heterosexual. Does this mean my natural desires should be justified in any and every way? Does it justify me lusting after every attractive woman I see or sleeping with women that I am not married to? No. What I do with my body is a behavior and my genetic predispositions do not MANDATE any behavior or make me one thing or another. Jesus told his disciples that if they could not marry one woman for life, they should never marry. If this is true with heterosexual unions...that you embrace God's way or you stay celibate, how much more with homosexuality!? If you cannot embrace God's design for your sexuality and the commitments behind that union, they you should be a eunuch for the Kingdom of God. You have been duped by the mentality that is being pushed today that a person is homosexual, just as a person is black, white, nearsighted or disabled. Wrong. Homosexuality is a behavior. We talk ABOUT the behavior because they are pushing it as natural, innocent and evil to speak against. I'm simply not buying the "victim" card for those who embrace a behavior. They need to know the love of Christ, his grace and repent.

This bears repeating Wormwood because it is truth, regardless of what people think or say. I have pointed out to homosexuals in other forums on the Net that there is no scientific or medical evidence that anyone is born homosexual.

There have been attempts to prove this but everyone has sunk without trace. If there was scientific or medical evidence, don't you think the homosexuals would be trumpeting it far and wide? The fact that they are not shows beyond a shadow of doubt that no one is born homosexual.

The other fact they overlook is that if it is not a choice, they have to admit that the sex they have is forced upon them, not something that they do willingly because only those who have choice can refuse or consent. Without choice, every incidence of sex is rape.

From a clinical point of view, homosexuality and pedophilia are very different disorders and gay people are just as repulsed by sexual child abuse as any of the rest of us.

Sorry, but once again you are ill informed. Having dug very deep into the homosexual agenda, they are committed to SSM for one reason only and it is not marriage equality. They want it to use as a tool to break down norms and the acceptance of anything goes, which means that they want to be able to indulge their perversion without sanction.

ATM, they express their revulsion of man/boy love, but they are up front when you find the right sources, that included in their plans is to accommodate their paedophile homosexuals to have legal man/boy love. This is due to the fact that they believe no sex is illegal except rape.

Earlier this year NAMBLA got together with the American Psychological Association to discuss one thing. The removal of paedophilia as a mental disorder. Once this is achieved, it is only a short step to making man/boy love legal.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Still waiting for an answer to this question. I guess that your reluctance to answer suggests that you don't bring deliverance to these people. That being the case, I prefer the way I do it to the way you don't do it as Charles Finney said to person who was criticising him for his methods.

As long as you continue to believe myths like homosexuality is a demon that can be cast out, you'll never help anyone, just cause a lot of pain like Exodus International finally admitted to. Doing nothing is better than what you're doing. So in a way, I'm helping homosexuals more than you are.




Sorry, but once again you are ill informed. Having dug very deep into the homosexual agenda, they are committed to SSM for one reason only and it is not marriage equality. They want it to use as a tool to break down norms and the acceptance of anything goes, which means that they want to be able to indulge their perversion without sanction.

ATM, they express their revulsion of man/boy love, but they are up front when you find the right sources, that included in their plans is to accommodate their paedophile homosexuals to have legal man/boy love. This is due to the fact that they believe no sex is illegal except rape.

Earlier this year NAMBLA got together with the American Psychological Association to discuss one thing. The removal of paedophilia as a mental disorder. Once this is achieved, it is only a short step to making man/boy love legal.

I once asked my lady friend what she thought about couples like them adopting a child. She said tersely that any woman who wants a child should marry a man. She said that adopting a child only highlights the fact that same sex couples weren't designed to bring children into the world. One consistent theme I see in all your posts is lumping all homosexuals together. I'm describing women I know who live lives of conscience and you want them all to be LGBT, rabid agenda driven ideologues pushing every moral restraint in society. It just isn't so. You clearly don't know homosexuals, just like everyone else who's responded to this thread, or you wouldn't be trying to make such a far fetched connection between them and NAMBLA. Everything you're claiming about "helping" homosexuals is falling apart faster than an Obamacare website.

 

[marksman]

As long as you continue to believe myths like homosexuality is a demon that can be cast out, you'll never help anyone, just cause a lot of pain like Exodus International finally admitted to. Doing nothing is better than what you're doing. So in a way, I'm helping homosexuals more than you are.

Your reply is as to be expected as there are plenty of people doing nothing in the church who consider themselves experts and who think that they know more about things than those who are doing something.

I have a friend who runs a blog on the internet exposing the myths and lies of homosexuals and atheists. It appears that some of his biggest critics are christians who are doing nothing to warn the church.

I am very aware that in scripture there is a verse that says "well done thou good and faithful servant..."

It doesn't say well thought or well said. It says well DONE... As God is my judge, not you, I will take comfort in God's "well done" not in your "well not done" and your uniformed criticism.

To show how bitter and twisted you are, you believe that allowing people to suffer an unwanted same sex attraction is better than actually leading them into freedom if a person does not do it according to the gospel of the vale of tears. If that isn't cynical I don't know what is.

And if I am offending you or the moderators in saying this, I make no apology as I spent two years bringing release and freedom to those with an unwanted same sex attraction and I am quite sure that those who were set free would say to you "up yours as you have no idea what you are talking about other than some wishy washy theory."

I'm describing women I know who live lives of conscience and you want them all to be LGBT, rabid agenda driven ideologues pushing every moral restraint in society. It just isn't so.

I must be doing what you are doing. You are taking two lesbians who are the epitome of morality and purity according to you and then infer that is what most lesbians are.

I will tell you what I want as you are very good at ASSUMING what people want. What I want is for them to be set free from their sin so that they can enjoy fullness in Christ. Until that happens, they are living second class lives under the deception of Satan and they will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9).

I also note that you make your pronouncement based on your knowledge of two lesbians. Mine are based on 20 years of reading; two years of ministry to people who have an unwanted same sex attraction; information coming in to my email box on a daily basis from other watchmen in the field; lecturing at bible colleges on the subject and teaching in churches; and writing a research paper on the subject which was presented to an enquiry held by the Federal government.

In addition, the pleasure of meeting years later those who were delivered of their unwanted same sex attraction through my ministry and are now married and have children.

You clearly don't know homosexuals, just like everyone else who's responded to this thread, or you wouldn't be trying to make such a far fetched connection between them and NAMBLA. Everything you're claiming about "helping" homosexuals is falling apart faster than an Obamacare website.

Thank you for confirming that you are trying to sound as though you know what you are talking about when in fact you don't. As you have never met me, you have no idea what I do or don't know about homosexuals. I do know that I learnt a lot getting information straight from the horses mouth when I went underground for a period of time to look the beast in the eye.

And from going around their venues in response to request from parents to find their sons who had disappeared into the homosexual community.

One of the underground fact finding missions was to an annual national conference for homosexuals where they set out their plans for the future so if I don't know what I am talking about, neither did the homosexuals who spoke at the conference.

One of those speakers was a paedophile who boasted that he had sex so far with 200 boys. The fact that he was allowed to speak and boast of his conquests is an indication that they approved of what he was doing.

Now, is there anything else that you know that I don't and you want to put me right on, bearing in mind your vast non involvement in this field of ministry?

 

[marksman]

Just as I thought VOT. You are full of bright ideas that are the product of a vivid imagination but you are not prepared to get your hands dirty. You would rather just lecture others because they know more than you do.

 

[marksman]

You are furthermore deceiving yourself by claiming you are "helping" homosexuals by casting out imaginary demons. Your incantations and magic shows are nothing more than tricks that don't bring about lasting freedom because homosexuality isn't a demon to be cast out, it's a disorder in one's sexual orientation and as such, never really goes away.

I must admit I have never heard the power of the Holy Spirit called imaginary demons, incantations and magic. What I do know is that calling the work of the Holy Spirit demonic is blasphemy and the unforgivable sin.

I know that in these last days satan is going to convince people that he does not exist so that he can have a free reign to impose his will on people. By the sound of things, he is succeeding. I am pleased to say he has not duped me and many other elect of God as we know that behind all sin is satan and when a person has submitted themselves to him on a continuous basis they give him permission to inhabit the person. When that happens, they can avail themselves of a deliverance ministry to have him cast out. You know, just like Jesus did. As the bible says, whatever you submit yourself to becomes your master.

The scripture says that we will do things greater than what Jesus did, but I guess that doesn't include taking authority over demons and bringing deliverance to people if we believe what VOT says. We have to be all timid and let satan run rampage all over the church and people.