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Featured A Most Neglected Letter

Discussion in 'Christian Spirituality Forum' started by Episkopos, Jul 13, 2019.

  1. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    the peoples justice... if it is the peoples justice it is not the Lords justice (or mercy!)

    you say this is a side point, but it is the thrust of Episkopos argument.. in any event, i will withdraw and leave you 2 to it...
     
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  2. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi Philip James,

    I realize that Episkopos is building on this particular word, and that is why I question his interpretation, and to present the historical meaning. But even with that in mind, I also know that Episkopos builds his doctrines on much more than this, and I feel there is a lot more involved than the definition of this one word.

    Episkopos, if I'm understanding him correctly, teaches:

    When we come to faith in Jesus Christ, Jesus comes in to us to give us the opportunity to be saved.
    We can then go on to try to be better people, and that's not bad, but it's not the Real Deal.
    Certain very few who have come to faith in Jesus go on through great desire for holiness - I'm sure he can be from revealing of his doctrine on this point - these certain precious few - are those who can live a life of complete sinlessness, and they are the ones who will be the Saints, ruling over the Faithful, those who never received the "real walk 'In Christ''. I know there's more to it than that, I'm just trying for the fingernail sketch. Again . . . happy to be corrected. Not meaning to put words in anyone's mouth.

    And people like me? Well, you can read his posts to see what he thinks of me.

    Much love!
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  3. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    . . . is, so it seems to me, to be to declare that this is anyone who does not think his way.

    The warning is sound . . . we need to know whether we are true or not.

    Question, @Episkopos , what is one to do who discovers that they are only one of the faithful, but not a Saint? Serious question. Let's put this doctrine to the test.

    Much love!
     
  4. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Here again you missed the point. Do you somehow see that?
    What people will see is that you don't understand what I'm saying...and misrepresent what I say. I'm trying to explain things on the most basic level...but that level is still not easy enough for you to understand. So there is a problem.

    Either I am not communicating it correctly...or you really are not understanding the specifics of spiritual things.

    You claim to be spiritual...yet you are constantly missing the points. Where is the understanding that is not just a human one in your reasoning?

    It's one thing to get the words to sound right...but another to bring across that truth in the manner of explanation. As soon as I leave exact verses and explain that very same thing in ordinary language you get lost. Why? Because the understanding isn't there.

    This means that you are heavily indoctrinated...and sincere in your beliefs...but this forum does not afford us the means to get deeper into the subject because of the limitations that typing posts imposes on a deper communication.

    So don't get me wrong...I'm trying to find the real you in there. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
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  5. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Since God reserves His judgment until the end there is no way of knowing what God's judgment will be. THAT is very unsettling for the human mind. We like certainty and security above all other things...including freedom and grace.

    I have stated repeatedly that humility is key...to take the low position. So if you have an option of being in the Bride or the guests on judgment day....go for the humblest route. Go for the guests. IF and I say IF you are slated to be a part of the bride then Jesus will come and get you and bring you up. But if you have to be sent down...you will be sent away completely. So then humility has much in it for a good outcome on that day. God will not tolerate the kind of buffoonery we see in the churches today.

    Now I have written many threads so then my understanding is very unveiled, so to speak. I have explained things in great detail. It just takes a little reading.
     
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  6. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I think I do understand what you are saying.

    I'm stupid. Or just unspiritual. You've used the word carnal before to describe me, not to mention dog.

    The thing is, we disagree.

    But for you, that's not enough just to say we disagree, you must also, for some unknown reason, continually disparage me.

    Think about that.

    I think you are communicating your ideas, and I think I am understanding the specifics of spiritual things.

    Nowhere, according to you.

    Am I to defend my person against your accusations? That's not what I'm here for.

    More pejorative, no substance, just, OH, you JUST don't get it!

    You are a very capable writer. But I suppose it's just easier to level personal comments to deflect the discussion to become about me, then to give something with greater substance.

    Much love!
     
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  7. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your clear answer.

    So there is nothing to be done. Either you're going to be "the bride" or your won't, and it has nothing to do with you.

    OK.

    We will most heartily disagree on this point.

    Tell me episkopos, Are you bride, or guest? Or you truly don't know, and are trying to a guest?

    Much love!
     
  8. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    You aren't seeing yourself at all in the mix. I'm responding to you as you twist what I say...and look for the worst possible rendition of it...even adding things in that I never said. So you are very sensitive and quick with taking offense. That's why I normally just ignore the drama...and you in that case.

    So are you looking for a tit-for tat?

    Or will you try actually digging deeper into the issues I'm raising up without all the negative misappropriations?

    And then there's the plain lies you indulge in which are disingenuous for a real spiritual brother to engage in. Only the nasty element on this forum has recourse to that... But that doesn't stop you.

    I never called you a dog. That's your own drama and over-sensitivity in action. You have a vindictive spirit in there. Someone on here called HIMSELF a sheep dog....as if that is a biblical role. So I said to that person that all is well and the sheep dog can return to the kennel. It was meant as a lighthearted joke and a light on a false premise. But you missed that...as you miss the deeper issues.
    And the constant hypocrisy of attacks with the "much love"...false advertising just show more drama and falsity.

    So then I don't suffer hypocrisy without pointing it out...for the good of all concerned.
     
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  9. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    I just told you my position. What part of being humble did you miss? Go back and read what I wrote.
     
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  10. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    So you won't mind then if I point out that the children of the Reformation (for the most part) have embraced 'the people's justice' ?

    Peace be with you!
     
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  11. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Episkopos . . . can you, is it possible for you, to stop with the personal comments.

    "You aren't seeing yourself"

    "You twist what I say"

    "look for the worst possible rendition of it"

    "So you are very sensitive and quick with taking offense."

    Can you ever rise above this? If only for the example it sets?

    Actually there was much more that you said.

    Passive Aggressive behavior is aggression from a passive stance.

    One dog starts, all the dogs start to howl! Passive aggressive, in that you can call someone a dog, and then deny deny deny. Lighthearted? Hm.

    You claim I'm offended, and you claim I'm overly sensitive. The reality is that Christianity is about the love, and life, and family of our Father, and of Jesus Christ. When someone persists in acting contrary to that, I tend to want to pull things out into the light.

    I don't point to these things as some way to defend my honor, I couldn't care less than I do. You don't offend me by words that I know lack any substance or meaning.

    But to those who look to others as examples of how to be, to those who would want to have an actual conversation about the Bible, I'd like to see all that nonsense gone forever.

    Look at the example of this thread. It has once again deteriorated into nothing more than name calling. We can do better than that.

    What I'm looking for is engagment over the doctrine without anyone turning into a schoolyard brawl.

    Much love!
     
  12. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    OK, then, to be a guest, and hoping to be invited higher, is that correct?

    Much love!
     
  13. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Not at all! :)

    The reformation opened a "Pandora"s box" of private interpretations as well as the freedom to understand the scriptures with the help of the Holy Spirit.

    With humanity there is always the bad coming along with the good. But the wise sort through the bad stuff and retain what is good.

    Peace... <><
     
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  14. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Christ in us is the HOPE of glory....not the certainty thereof. Jesus warned us what to do if we would be wise. Take the low seat...claim nothing for yourself.

    Let others praise you...not yourself. Let God exalt you...not yourself.

    Claim only to be an unprofitable servant (not all this sonship stuff that mainly just puffs up the flesh in people). THAT is what Jesus said. We ignore His words at our own peril.

    Once you embrace humility and obscurity...you will have moved forward in the Lord. Now (if this is fully embraced) God can let you in on other things.

    Proverbs 22:4
    4 By humility and the fear of the Lord
    Are riches and honor and life.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
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  15. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi Episkopos,

    Thank you for a straightforward reply.

    Much love!
     
  16. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    "Are we the final destination of grace...or is grace meant to flow through us into the world?"
    BAM! Can't get the gif to load...just changed ISP's and it is supposed to be much faster, and it is slower than dial up :rolleyes:
     
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  17. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Some places "hope" elpis is used . . .

    Act 2:26-27 "Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    His hope was certain, God had promised.

    Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

    Rom 8:19-21 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    Rom 8:24-25 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

    Col 1:4-5 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

    Col 1:25-27 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

    1Th 4:13-15 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    Not all places give the contextual cues to ascertain the meaning specifically, but each of these places reveal Biblical "hope" to be more that the wistful hope Oh I hope I hope, instead reflecting the certainty of what is hoped for.

    We have the hope - the expectation of something this is actually going to happen - that Jesus will bring with Him those who sleep in Him. Not this one, or that one, like, maybe him, and maybe not him, rather, those who sleep in Him, He Will bring - we have that hope.

    We have a hope laid up in heaven. Not, maybe laid up in heaven, rather, it is.

    We wait patiently for what we hope for . . . knowing we will receive it.

    Our hope is for the resurrection of the dead. We know it will be.

    Rom 8:19-21 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    This one above is significant, in that it speaks of the one who subjected creation to futility has having a hope. It was God who did this, according to Solomon in Ecclesiates. God has a hope. Not a wistful Oh I hope I hope, rather, He knows exactly what will happen. And He calls this a "hope".

    Certain expectation of the good things God has promised to us. Resurrection. The resurrection of our loved ones in Him. The restoration of creation.

    Christ in you, the hope of Glory.

    How can Christ in you end any other way? Are you stronger than He?

    Much love!
     
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  18. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    'And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
    These things saith the Amen,
    .. the faithful and true witness,
    .... the beginning of the creation of God;
    I know thy works,
    .. that thou art neither cold nor hot:
    I would thou wert cold or hot.
    .. So then because thou art lukewarm,
    .... and neither cold nor hot,
    ...... I will spue thee out of My mouth.
    Because thou sayest,
    .. "I am rich,
    .... and increased with goods,
    ...... and have need of nothing";
    and knowest not that -
    .. thou art wretched,
    .... and miserable,
    ...... and poor,
    ........ and blind,
    .......... and naked:
    I counsel thee to buy of Me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich;
    .. and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed,
    .... and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear;
    ...... and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
    As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten:
    .. be zealous therefore, and repent.

    Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:
    .. if any man hear My voice, and open the door,

    .... I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me.
    ...... To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne,
    ........ even as I also overcame,
    .......... and am set down with My Father in His throne.
    He that hath an ear,
    let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.'

    (Revelation 3:14-22)

    Hello @Episkopos,

    All Scripture is profitable to us, but not all is 'about' us. We can learn much from the letter to the Laodiceans, and it is wise to measure ourselves against what is written there, as it is with all of Scripture: but there is no reason to believe that this letter is written for this present time specifically. In fact the book of Revelation is very much Israel related, and has no application to the church which is His Body: the fullness of Him that filleth all in all; which is being called out at this present time.

    Do you not believe God, when He tells us in Ephesians chapter one, that the members of His Body are COMPLETE in Christ Jesus their risen Lord? What is it about the word COMPLETE that is so difficult to believe? Is not the sacrificial offering of Christ sufficient?

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
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  19. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying you are rich in Christ and have need of nothing? You have gained spiritual wealth?

    History repeats itself over and over but the wise see themselves in it and change course.

    We are complete IN Christ. But to be complete we can't just believe about Christ...but actually enter INTO Him...and that is the work of God translating us into a walk in heavenly places. So we all have that potential....but we each need to go before the throne of grace to receive it. We need to "buy that field" ..."purchase that oil" to get into Him.

    It is crucial to understand the things of God AT THE CORRECT DEPTH AND SCALE!

    But people will believe as they want to.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
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  20. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    If God says it of you, can you not believe that it is true?

    Jesus says this to certain ones, but who think that they have it all, but they don't. They have a certain materialism. A form of spirituality, but without having received the true faith in Jesus.

    If you be in Christ, you have Every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realm in Christ. You are a new man in Christ who has been forever separated from all your sins.

    It's such a good thing!

    I am rich in Christ, and He supplies all I need. But in this case, unlike the Laodiceans, it happens to be true.

    To be clear, I read these letters as addressed to all who are in the church, to anyone who has an ear to hear. We need to know and understand them, and to be admonished by them in the Spirit.

    Yes, it's not found in "believing about Christ", naturally, that's not, I think, what any of us are actually talking about.

    What actually does that mean to you, "believing about Christ"?

    Much love!
     
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