A Near Place

[avoice]

At the seventh and Last trumpet,On Lords Day
Christ's returns there will be a shaking in Jerusalem. We are told the mount of Olives will split in two Yet God will make a way of escape for his people on that day. A way of escape for God's people will be there, and this coming destruction known as the "wrath of God" is not to be feared...

God always takes care of his own ..As he did in Eygpt. Trusting this is faith.

The time period here is After Christ feet touch down on the MT of Olives he has gathered his Elect and the overcomers and he's going to make a safe place for them........However before Gods wrath is poured out in the 7 last bowls
upon the wicked and those with the Mark of the beast.

Where we will go? where is this place.

Zec 14 for one, along with chapters Rev. describe the Lords day ..By putting the descriptions of the lords day together we can get a fuller picture.

Rev14.1 Then I looked, and there was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion. With him were one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Rev 7. Tells us there is great multitude they also are wearing the robes of Sainthood.

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Zec14:4
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

When the mountain splits in half it creates a valley. And ye shall flee to the valley of mine moutains. We are told to flee into this new valley. Remember we have already been gathered by the Lord in Rev. 14:14-16

Zechariah 14:5 "And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal:
yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."

"Azal" means "Reserved/Kept place Or can be rendered “very near” Place (the escape made easy)
.
The Name Azal only occurrs in ( Zechariah 14:5 ) It is mentioned as the limit or end of which the Valley/ravine of the Mount of Olives will extend when God shall go forth to fight. (Smiths Dic.)

This reserved/near place is selected by God for His people, He will gather together his church the bride to Azal and there God will protect His own there.
While the Last 7 vials are poured out upon those who have been reaped into his Wrath (Rev 14:19)..The Wrath of God..

 

[Amazing Grace]

So is this Jehovah's Witnesses take on the End of the Tribulation? I note you qutoe 144,000 being gathered so that makes me think you are a JW.

If so I don't agree with your interpretation. Nice try.

Can't be bothered correcting you. Becasue most people here can't agree with each other not sure what will be said by the others.

Anyway I leave it to the others to see what they think. Who knows they might agree with your scenario?

Personally I am a conservative Protestant that believes in a simple repentance and salvation gospel. At the end of the Trib we see a 1,000 year millenial rule of Christ from Jerusalem. Then there will be the white throne judgement at the end of the 1,000 year rule of Christ on this earth and eternity. NO I don't accept your 144,000 limit of believers getting into Heaven to live with God forever.

If you are not a JW my apologies.

 

[avoice]

So is this Jehovah's Witnesses take on the End of the Tribulation? I note you qutoe 144,000 being gathered so that makes me think you are a JW.

If so I don't agree with your interpretation. Nice try.

Can't be bothered correcting you. Becasue most people here can't agree with each other not sure what will be said by the others.

Anyway I leave it to the others to see what they think. Who knows they might agree with your scenario?

Personally I am a conservative Protestant that believes in a simple repentance and salvation gospel. At the end of the Trib we see a 1,000 year millenial rule of Christ from Jerusalem. Then there will be the white throne judgement at the end of the 1,000 year rule of Christ on this earth and eternity. NO I don't accept your 144,000 limit of believers getting into Heaven to live with God forever.

If you are not a JW my apologies.

LOL

excuse me do not mean to be rude but can you read the number before each verse that means its scripture that is quoted?

This is scripture it isnt an interpetation its exactly what scripture says open your bible
and read it yourself ...
Where do you think JW got that number ..do you think they made it up ?
They took the number from the book

All I did was put a few scriprures talking about the same thing THe LORDS DAY and put them together and look up a word in the bible dictionary.
If you dont know the differance between reading scripture and interpting it perhaps you shouldnt be correcting anyone
.
Just so you know Im Christain bible student who believes in Jesus Christ.......... not a JW ..
and I did not limit salvation to 144,000 did you read where I said mulitudes of people nations
more than one can number Im sure I was using a verse that mentionded the 144,000 not limiting
salvation ..and by the way I believe in all the things you mentioned ...


Now read revelation 7:4
Now how many servants does he mention
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=7&v=1&t=KJV#comm/4Rev 7:4http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=7&v=1&t=KJV#comm/4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Yep 144,000 in fact they mentioned in several places ....and they are not JW....they do play a part

 

[Amazing Grace]

So you think that only JWs believe in the 144,000?

The JW teaching is only 144,000 will make it to Heaven.

Since you were not clear in what you were saying you quoted the 144,000 and then going to Azel.

Still not sure what you are trying to say here.

Best leave it there.

At least I'm willing to find out what you actually were trying to say here and not putting words into your mouth.

 

[avoice]

Ill be happy to explain look at Rev. 7
in verses Rev. 7:1-9
God sends an angel to seal 144,000 this is before the tribulation these
are the ones that God will use to lead others during the tribulation .... they are his servants
One might think of them as kind of being used as the apostels were used in th OT

Now look at the rest of the chapter 7 this is a second vision it takes place after the tribulation
[sup]
[sup][/sup]9[/sup] After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Now who are these people?
[sup]
[sup][/sup]13[/sup] Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

[sup]14[/sup] I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This is the multitude of all the people these two groups the 144,000 plus the multitudes of people make up the bride or church or body of Christ . They just have differnt roles to play.

Now my study is about when Christ comes and gathers his own that is everyone to keep them from his wrath ...God wrath is on the wicked its only the last 7 vials.

We are not appointed to his wrath ...

In Mat. 24:29-31 the very first thing Christ does at his return is gather his Elect

We then see him standing on the Mt of Olives this is where my study starts .....

The moutain splits in two and causes a valley to open He calls the end of the valley Azal which means what I said and he gathers all his
people there the 144,000 with the Mulitude to many to number

Zechariah 14:5 "And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal:
yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."

The last thing he does is pour out the last 7 vials on the wicked but we wont be touched we are with Christ in Azal but we can not enter the temple until the plagues are poured out

Rev 14
[sup]6[/sup] Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests.

[sup]7[/sup] Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.
[sup]
[sup][/sup]8[/sup] And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

We are safe in the valley of Azal

 

[veteran]

At the seventh and Last trumpet,On Lords Day
Christ's returns there will be a shaking in Jerusalem. We are told the mount of Olives will split in two Yet God will make a way of escape for his people on that day. A way of escape for God's people will be there, and this coming destruction known as the "wrath of God" is not to be feared...

God always takes care of his own ..As he did in Eygpt. Trusting this is faith.

The time period here is After Christ feet touch down on the MT of Olives he has gathered his Elect and the overcomers and he's going to make a safe place for them........However before Gods wrath is poured out in the 7 last bowls
upon the wicked and those with the Mark of the beast.

Where we will go? where is this place.

Zec 14 for one, along with chapters Rev. describe the Lords day ..By putting the descriptions of the lords day together we can get a fuller picture.

Rev14.1 Then I looked, and there was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion. With him were one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Rev 7. Tells us there is great multitude they also are wearing the robes of Sainthood.

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Zec14:4
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

When the mountain splits in half it creates a valley. And ye shall flee to the valley of mine moutains. We are told to flee into this new valley. Remember we have already been gathered by the Lord in Rev. 14:14-16 Zechariah 14:5 "And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal:
yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."

"Azal" means "Reserved/Kept place Or can be rendered “very near” Place (the escape made easy)
.
The Name Azal only occurrs in ( Zechariah 14:5 ) It is mentioned as the limit or end of which the Valley/ravine of the Mount of Olives will extend when God shall go forth to fight. (Smiths Dic.)

This reserved/near place is selected by God for His people, He will gather together his church the bride to Azal and there God will protect His own there.
While the Last 7 vials are poured out upon those who have been reaped into his Wrath (Rev 14:19)..The Wrath of God..

I understand that, but I see the time of God's wrath poured upon the wicked happening with the earthquake event of Christ's coming that will split the Mount of Olives in two. In other words, I'm seeing the 7th Trumpet of Christ's return happening concurrently with the 7th Vial...

Rev 16:12-21
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The 6th Trumpet has a parallel to that Euphrates river, and the loosing of the four angels bound at that river. It's about the release of the locust army upon the earth to destroy men with what comes out of their 'mouth' (words to cause deception). That's the peak time of the tribulation. In the final part of that 6th Vial timing, they gather the leaders of all nations together in prep for going up against Jerusalem for Armageddon. That aligns with Ezekiel 38.


15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Right after that 6th Vial, our Lord Jesus gave us that warning. It's for believers, about the time of His coming "as a thief in the night" (per 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.10). Paul and Peter both linked that "as a thief" timing with "the day of the Lord" events. The day of The Lord is when the cup of God's wrath is poured out. Thus, all those are linked together about the time of Christ's coming. The 7th Vial is next, but this verse shows Christ's coming is not yet even on that 6th Vial.


16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
(KJV)

All those events of the 7th Vial occur very quickly. If I had to guess, less than a couple of minutes (and I'm pulling from the Old Testament prophets along with this, especially in Isaiah where a group of chapters parallel Revelation about this). It's common for many to treat these descriptions in Revelation as having to take up a large amount of time.

1Thes 5:3
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
(KJV)

When Paul mentioned that "sudden destruction" coming upon them, the following is one of the many OT Scriptures he was pulling that idea from...

Isa 29:5-8
5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.
6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.
(KJV)

God compares that instant like waking up from a dream; probably as a nightmare for the wicked. How quickly do we wake up from a dream and discover it was but a dream? Pretty dog-gone quickly.

This is also why Apostle Paul taught on the "last trump" those on earth will be 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor.15). It's going to be at an instant.

Thus I don't believe we will be gathered to Christ until we are 'changed' at that 'twinkling of an eye' first, which also means all peoples on earth will be changed at an instant too (per Isaiah 25). Very quickly, Christ appearing with the clouds, His feet touching down upon the mount of Olives, and then the great earthquake and change at an instant with God's wrath poured out upon the wicked instantly also; then our gathering to that great valley in Jerusalem to be with Christ Jesus. God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth is coupled with that change also.

 

[avoice]

I understand that, but I see the time of God's wrath poured upon the wicked happening with the earthquake event of Christ's coming that will split the Mount of Olives in two. In other words, I'm seeing the 7th Trumpet of Christ's return happening concurrently with the 7th Vial...
(KJV)

God compares that instant like waking up from a dream; probably as a nightmare for the wicked. How quickly do we wake up from a dream and discover it was but a dream? Pretty dog-gone quickly.

This is also why Apostle Paul taught on the "last trump" those on earth will be 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor.15). It's going to be at an instant.

Thus I don't believe we will be gathered to Christ until we are 'changed' at that 'twinkling of an eye' first, which also means all peoples on earth will be changed at an instant too (per Isaiah 25). Very quickly, Christ appearing with the clouds, His feet touching down upon the mount of Olives, and then the great earthquake and change at an instant with God's wrath poured out upon the wicked instantly also; then our gathering to that great valley in Jerusalem to be with Christ Jesus. God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth is coupled with that change also.

I used to believe this pretty much as you have laid out for many many years ,,but it just isnt whats said IMO ...

Ill try to show you why but suit yourself

I think we agree we can not be reaped until the 7th trump when Christ returns
[sup]
[sup][/sup]15[/sup]And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

[sup]16[/sup]And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

What we see here is a double harvest Christ reaps his Church .... That means they must be changed into Incorruptible bodies(1 Cor.15) or they can not be reaped flesh and blood can not even look upon him and live.



Notice now another angel not Christ is going to reap these into Gods wrath if his wrath has already happened how can they be reaped into it ???
[sup]
[sup][/sup]17[/sup]And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

[sup]18[/sup]And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. [sup]19[/sup]And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


Revelation 15
[sup]1[/sup]And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.


We then see the Elect singing ect. in the next few verses..... Where are they ? in Azal

[sup]
[sup][/sup]6[/sup]And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.


[sup]7[/sup]And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. [sup]8[/sup]And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.


We are in the Lords Day or 7th trump from the very moment he gathers his elect
The last 7 vials take place in the Lords day it Gods wrath ...but his wrath is not for us and he tells us that many times
The Lords Day is a day of darkness ...but not for us ...

1Th 5:9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,



also see http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/smiths-bible-dictionary/azal.html

We are reaped and changed before his wrath ...Gods Wrath is last 7 vials. Its from Azal he goes forth to fight.
The tribulation ended at the 6th trump ..The 7th sounds he gathers his Elect /Over-comers then prepares to pour out his wrath....on who?
on those reaped into it .....

 

[veteran]

I used to believe this pretty much as you have laid out for many many years ,,but it just isnt whats said IMO ...

Ill try to show you why but suit yourself

I think we agree we can not be reaped until the 7th trump when Christ returns
[sup]
15[/sup]And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

[sup]16[/sup]And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

What we see here is a double harvest Christ reaps his Church .... That means they must be changed into Incorruptible bodies(1 Cor.15) or they can not be reaped flesh and blood can not even look upon him and live.


Notice now another angel not Christ is going to reap these into Gods wrath if his wrath has already happened how can they be reaped into it ???

I realize what you're saying, and yes there's actually 3 entities associated with that reaping in Rev.14. The subject is still about one particular harvest time, or season. Like I've said before about the layouts in our Lord's Book of Revelation, a lot info is given that would appear to take up blocks of time to occur, when the events on the day of The Lord actually occur very quickly per the OT prophets (like Isaiah).

Matt 25:31-33
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
(KJV)

Within the parable of the tares of the field, the tares are gathered first.

In 1 Cor.15 Paul says we are changed on the "last trump" "at the twinkling of an eye". He was pulling from Scripture like Isaiah 25 with something cast over all nations being removed, suddenly. I know most fellow-believers think Paul was speaking only of those in Christ Jesus about that particular change of 1 Cor.15, but it's actually about all peoples on earth being changed at an instant. The main difference is that all alive on earth do not inherit eternal life with that because not all are followers of Christ Jesus. But everyone alive will inherit a body of incorruption, even the wicked, for the body of incorruption is required for the resurrection of both.

In John 5:29, our Lord Jesus said in that hour all in the graves will hear His voice and "come forth", those that did good to the "resurrection of life", and those that did evil to the "resurrection of damnation". In other words, BOTH, the just and the unjust are resurrected at the same time, which aligns with all those other Scriptures on the day of The Lord events.


Isa 29:5-8
5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.
6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.
(KJV)

Those left of the nations that come upon Jerusalem will experience that event like waking up from a dream where they were hungry and dreamed of being filled, only to wake up and discover they're still starving.
[sup][/sup]

 

[avoice]

I not debating its all one harvest time I agree ...
However we are talking about the wild vine who is reaped into God Wrath .... Gods wrath is the last 7 vials he calls them his wrath ....
They can not be cast into his wrath if it already occured ... His wrath the last 7 bowls are poured out after he returns because no reaping can occur before that before the 7th trump sounds ...its his wrath upon Satan and his ...

The first four trumps are aqgainst the earth
the 5th and 6th are against the souls of men by Satan

The 7th is Gods trump, the Lords day, a day of darkness and his wrath as we are told over and over again
... that wrath being the 7 vials pourned out upon Satan.

[sup]19[/sup]And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
They bare cast into his wrath which is about to occur .... Therefore the 7 vials are in the lords day not before.

Therefore I will shake the heavens,And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger" (Isaiah 13:6-13).

 

[veteran]

However we are talking about the wild vine who is reaped into God Wrath .... Gods wrath is the last 7 vials he calls them his wrath ....

Might want to look deeper at the vials, especially events of the last vial. I know it's been a popular Church tradition to interpret the vials as God's wrath, and that they don't even begin until after the seventh trumpet, simply because they are written down after the trumpets. But that's not the event order our Lord Jesus showed. The very last vial is the time of God's wrath poured out on the day of The Lord. That day won't begin until the very last vial, the seventh vial which is poured out into the "air".

I think I tried to show you this before...

Rev 16:12-19
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Notice on the 6th Vial Satan's beast kingdom is still existent "working miracles", and preparing the worldly for the final battle of this present world on earth. That's why our Lord Jesus then gave the following hints of the timing...

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

We know per 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10 and Rev.3:3 that our Lord's coming return will be "as a thief". Those first two Scripture ref. also link that time with "the day of The Lord" events. So because our Lord Jesus gave that time marker here, in between the 6th and 7th vials, it means His coming is not yet at this 6th vial. It means the 7th trumpet has not blown yet at this point. Instead, He gives a warning for His saints, that those who watch and keep their garments (works in Christ) will be blessed; and if we don't we will walk naked in shame when He does return.


16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

That is about the last vial getting ready to happen. Per the OT prophets God said it was His intent to gather the kingdoms around Jerusalem in order to pour out His indignation upon them (Zeph.3; Ezek.38; Joel 3; Micah 4; Zech.14).


17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
(KJV)

Thus the previous vials are wrath judgments also, but only the 7th Vial is about the time of God's wrath being poured out on "the day of The Lord" with Christ's coming. That HAS to be the 7th Trumpet timing also, for that's when Christ returns to gather us on that day. The 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial occur at the same time per that.

 

[avoice]

It has nothing to do with church tradition I never heard any church teach this one way or other
Its simply listening to God and studying his word for many years.
God says its his wrath and thats good enough for me

Rev 15:1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God

Suit yourself but I tell you the scriptures say the 7 bowls /vials take place on the Lords day.
They are poured out after the reaping ...
[sup]19[/sup]And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. .... Which is the last 7 vials

 

[veteran]

It has nothing to do with church tradition I never heard any church teach this one way or other

I have to disagree, for that's how even most post-trib Churches teach about the vials, thinking they don't begin until after Christ's gathering of the saints on the last trump. That's how the Pre-trib schools also treat the vials, except they treat our gathering as being prior to the tribulation, which would mean way before the 7th trumpet.

Its simply listening to God and studying his word for many years.
God says its his wrath and thats good enough for me

I realize you study; I have studied also many years. But only in the last decade have I been given to really see those events of the vials, and realize how our Lord Jesus showed there His coming is on that 7th Vial.

Rev 15:1

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God

Suit yourself but I tell you the scriptures say the 7 bowls /vials take place on the Lords day.
They are poured out after the reaping ...
[sup]19[/sup]And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. .... Which is the last 7 vials

It's not about what suits us. It's about what our Lord is teaching us there, and making sure we listen to Him as written. That's why we cannot dislodge that Rev.16:15 verse our Lord Jesus gave us in between the 6th and 7th vials. The day of The Lord event is when God will pour out His cup of wrath upon the nations that surround Jerusalem. That's what that Armageddon event on the 7th vial is about. Because it is poured out into the "air", that is representing the time when we ALL will be 'changed' at the "twinkling of an eye" on the "last trump" like Apostle Paul said, pulling from the OT prophets...

Have you read this?

Isa 25:4-9
4 For Thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
(KJV)

That is where Apostle Paul was pulling from when teaching about the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15. If one believes that ONLY Christ's elect are going to be changed while all other peoples remain in their flesh on earth, then one might as well believe in the Pre-trib secret rapture theory, for that's what they believe except they move the gathering time prior to the tribulation. With Christ's gathering, we are not removed off this earth, but to where He will be, on earth at Jerusalem.

On that day of The Lord when our Lord Jesus comes, EVERYBODY on earth is going to be 'changed' to the resurrection body, not just us. That is what the removing of the vail that is spread over all nations is about.

 

[avoice]

It's not about what suits us. With that I agree
And do you think you are the only one he teaches ?

I agree with much of the things you say been teaching many of them myself for many years but you are not the only one who can be right.
No one knows everything ..and on this Im right ...
the truth is you can certainly disagree with me ....but you can not prove me wrong in scripture. I know scripture as well as you do.

The Lords day 7th trump starts with his wrath the last 7 vials being poured out on Satans world system ...

We will be in Azal ... kept safe ... However temple of is closed until the last 7 vials are poured out.

Now if the Lords day is a day of Wrath whom do you think its on ?
We are not appointed to wrath.

I can give you scripture after scripture

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.

Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD [is] at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;

http://www.bluelette...=5&sstr=0&t=KJV

 

[veteran]

It's not about what suits us. With that I agree
And do you think you are the only one he teaches ?

I agree with much of the things you say been teaching many of them myself for many years but you are not the only one who can be right.
No one knows everything ..and on this Im right ...
the truth is you can certainly disagree with me ....but you can not prove me wrong in scripture. I know scripture as well as you do.

The Lords day 7th trump starts with his wrath the last 7 vials being poured out on Satans world system ...

We will be in Azal ... kept safe ... However temple of is closed until the last 7 vials are poured out.

Now if the Lords day is a day of Wrath whom do you think its on ?
We are not appointed to wrath.

I can give you scripture after scripture

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.

Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD [is] at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;

http://www.bluelette...=5&sstr=0&t=KJV

Sorry avoice, but you're actually not disagreeing with me... but with this...

1Thes 5:1-4
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(KJV)

2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV)

Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
(KJV)

The Rev.16:15 verse is especially important, because our Lord Jesus is showing that His coming and our gathering is not until that 7th Vial. The moment just prior to His coming is 6th Seal, 6th Trumpet, and 6th Vial timing. Those are the events that will be taking place on earth immediately prior (i.e., 666).

In our Lord's Olivet Discourse, He actually gave ONLY 7 signs of the end leading up to His return. His Book of Revelation has 21 signs, so how do we reconcile that? It's simple. The 7 seals are about those same 7 signs of Matt.24 and Mark 13; the 7 trumpets are also about those same 7 signs; and the 7 vials are also about those same 7 signs. It's about three separate parallel descriptions WITHIN the same 7 signs.

7 Signs = 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, 7 Vials

The very LAST 7th sign our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse is of His return and our gathering to Him. That event is linked to the "day of The Lord" and "as a thief" timing.

 

[avoice]

actually you mistaken I do not disagree with any of the above scripture
I disagree with any of this new form of a thief in the night doctrine its as flawed as rapture doctrine IMHO

As a thief in the night is an idiom (figure of speech ) Christ goes in to detail about it He says it means when least expected ..But by whom ?

Only to those who have the mark and are not watching because there will be no warning to them

After the two witnesses are killed the whole world is throwing a party ..thinking the trouble makers are gone

They believe the Antichrist to be Christ. So they are not watching for another.

And when they hear and see him the nations become angry because they know his wrath is about to come.

Matthew 24:43: "But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into."

A thief can never sneak in on those who are expecting him. To his church that are expecting him it will be plain as day they will be watching ....
Mat 24:46 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Christ doesnt come quietly sneaking in there is no secret coming of the Lord anymore than there is a rapture.

There is one second coming and the trumpet will be sounding and an angel will be shouting and every eye will see

Rev.1:10 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

. Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[veteran]

actually you mistaken I do not disagree with any of the above scripture
I disagree with any of this new form of a thief in the night doctrine its as flawed as rapture doctrine IMHO

Nothing new about Apostle Paul and our Lord Jesus and Peter giving that "as a thief" metaphor along with the time of Christ's coming. Our Lord Jesus used it in His warning for us to watch, as Apostle Paul did too. Just because the pre-trib school mis-applies its meaning is no reason for us to disregard it as given by our Lord and His Apostles.

As a thief in the night is an idiom (figure of speech ) Christ goes in to detail about it He says it means when least expected ..But by whom ?

Only to those who have the mark and are not watching because there will be no warning to them

After the two witnesses are killed the whole world is throwing a party ..thinking the trouble makers are gone

They believe the Antichrist to be Christ. So they are not watching for another.

And when they hear and see him the nations become angry because they know his wrath is about to come.

Matthew 24:43: "But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into."

A thief can never sneak in on those who are expecting him. To his church that are expecting him it will be plain as day they will be watching ....
Mat 24:46 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Christ doesnt come quietly sneaking in there is no secret coming of the Lord anymore than there is a rapture.

There is one second coming and the trumpet will be sounding and an angel will be shouting and every eye will see

Rev.1:10 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

. Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Yep, I agree with that. None of that detracts from what I showed from our Lord Jesus and His Apostles Paul and Peter.

1 Thess.5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Paul tells us that we are not to be in darkness that Christ's coming should surprise us as a thief in the night. It will only surprise the wicked and deceived, is what he showed. But when Paul hard-linked the TIME of Christ's coming "as a thief in the night" with that "day of The Lord", he was tying that metaphor idea to when Christ returns to gather us and pours His wrath upon 'them' (deceived) with the "sudden destruction" he also mentioned in that 1 Thessalonians 5 chapter.

Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
(KJV)

When our Lord Jesus gave that time marker, He used that same "as a thief" metaphor that Paul and Peter used to link the "day of The Lord" with the time of His coming. That means our Lord Jesus will not come PRIOR to the "day of The Lord". And per OT Scripture in Isaiah, we know "the day of The Lord" is also the time of God's wrath upon the wicked and deceived.