A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[Runningman]

But you still have to deal with the various places such as "before Abraham was, I am", that is, before Abraham did exist in the past, I do exist in the present. That's the wording and grammar of the passage. A real mind-bender, huh! He's claiming a present existence before Abraham's historical existence. Something only someone who is not bound to this space-time continuum can say. Something only an eternal being can say. Jesus said it, and He spoke truth, as always.

Jesus isn't the I AM and I'll give you some things to deal with as well.

See Acts 3:13 where Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Acts 3​

13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.​

Compare this to Exodus 3:14,15 where the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the I AM. This means Jesus is none of the above. Jesus is God's servant.

Exodus 3​

14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”​

15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.​

 

[Runningman]

Philippians 2:5-8 KJV
5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

You didn't address verse 5 where Paul premised what follows from there by telling the Philippians to have the same mind in them which was also in Christ Jesus. After that, Paul described the mind of Jesus. Paul wasn't telling them to believe that they are God because Jesus didn't believe he is God.

He humbled Himself . . . from what? Was He proud? Or was He transcendant?

Because he is God's servant.

He became obedient . . . from what? Was He disobedient? Or Sovereign?

Obedient to God's will.

He was in the form of God . . . transcendant . . . sovereign . . . YHWH.

The word form means "the outward appearance" in the Greek.

Philippians 2:10-11 KJV
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This proves Jesus doesn't get glory for being bowed to.

Do you seriously think that Paul would appropriate Isaiah's words applied to YHWH and apply them to Jesus, if they are not the same One? I don't, myself.

Much love!

I think you have misunderstood what Paul was saying.

 

[marks]

But Thomas wasn't praised for his attitude of being a doubter. Thomas required visually evidence of Jesus' resurrection to believe it was true. Jesus responded with “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Which means Thomas wasn't blessed.

Remember, Thomas was doing exactly what Jesus told them to do. I know, it's popular to criticize Thomas, just the same, Jesus had told them,
Matthew 24:23-27 KJV
23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25) Behold, I have told you before.
26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Can you imagine? There's Thomas . . . "Thomas, He was here! In this room!" And there's Thomas . . . Oh no, not you!! Jesus said don't believe them . . . you? So maybe Thomas' questioning wasn't so misplaced?

Speaking of arguments from silence . . . how do we know Thomas didn't have his own blessedness? Though of course I agree that those who believe not having seen have their blessing.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Being the "God of all flesh" and a"God of flesh" aren't the same things. The Old Testament also says that God isn't a man or a son of man. That means God isn't human, i.e., He isn't flesh.

Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that He should lie,
or a son of man, that He should change His mind.

I'm getting the idea you may not be reading my posts very carefully.

Jeremiah tells us that God is the God of all flesh, and therefore, Jesus being incarnate, which simply means, in flesh, He then worships the Father being God. He also was baptized, this is the same thing. He shares in our lot as men.

God is a Spirit, and He took on flesh, being born as a man.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Because he is God's servant.

He became obedient, which signals a precedent state. Follow it through.

Much love!

 

[Runningman]

Remember, Thomas was doing exactly what Jesus told them to do. I know, it's popular to criticize Thomas, just the same, Jesus had told them,
Matthew 24:23-27 KJV
23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25) Behold, I have told you before.
26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Can you imagine? There's Thomas . . . "Thomas, He was here! In this room!" And there's Thomas . . . Oh no, not you!! Jesus said don't believe them . . . you? So maybe Thomas' questioning wasn't so misplaced?

Speaking of arguments from silence . . . how do we know Thomas didn't have his own blessedness? Though of course I agree that those who believe not having seen have their blessing.

Much love!

That's one way to look at it, but Thomas was on an island alone. All of the other remaining disciples had already confirmed it was "The Lord" not "their Lord and God." Thomas simply lacked the faith and wasn't blessed.

John 20
24Now Thomas called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he replied, “Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe.”

 

[Runningman]

I'm getting the idea you may not be reading my posts very carefully.

Jeremiah tells us that God is the God of all flesh, and therefore, Jesus being incarnate, which simply means, in flesh, He then worships the Father being God. He also was baptized, this is the same thing. He shares in our lot as men.

God is a Spirit, and He took on flesh, being born as a man.

Much love!

God took John's water baptism of repentance? What do you suppose God needed to repent of?

Acts 19
4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance.

 

[Runningman]

He became obedient, which signals a precedent state. Follow it through.

Much love!

He became obedient.... then.... where did you get the idea he was God preceding this?

 

[marks]

He became obedient.... then.... where did you get the idea he was God preceding this?

What I'm saying is, in saying, He became obedient, this signals a previous state, where He wasn't obedience. Which means He was either disobedient, or He was sovereign. I'm betting on Sovereign, over disobedient.

He humbled Himself. What was He before humbling Himself? Was He sinfully proud? Or was He transcendant? Again, I'm betting on transcendant.

Much love!

 

[marks]

God took John's water baptism of repentance? What do you suppose God needed to repent of?

Right back to you . . . What was Jesus repenting of? Do you charge Him with sin?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Jesus isn't the I AM

Do you realize that's not what I was writing about? I do think you may benefit from a more careful reading of my posts.

Much love!

 

[RedFan]

God took John's water baptism of repentance? What do you suppose God needed to repent of?

Paul had Timothy circumcised (Acts 16:3). What do you suppose was the purpose of that?

 

[Wrangler]

That's what I'm saying, you talk that way, and you ascribe that same kind of speech to Thomas.

Right! Its called Language Usage.

 

[Wrangler]

Back to that pesky Koine Greek.

"O God" is not abreviating "of God",

Yes, it is, since we are reading English and that is how it translated. It is you you must resort to reading something else into the translation.

 

[marks]

It is you you must resort to reading something else into the translation.

Just another "intellectual dishonesty" reply. O well!

Much love!

 

[Runningman]

What I'm saying is, in saying, He became obedient, this signals a previous state, where He wasn't obedience. Which means He was either disobedient, or He was sovereign. I'm betting on Sovereign, over disobedient.

He humbled Himself. What was He before humbling Himself? Was He sinfully proud? Or was He transcendant? Again, I'm betting on transcendant.

Much love!

Just curious. Well, Hebrews actually tells us what happened before he was obedient and humbled himself. He was a man learning obedience until he was perfected. Just like all of us are trying to do. Except he did it, perfectly.

Does this sound like God?

Hebrews 5
8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him 10and was designated by God as high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

 

[marks]

Just curious. Well, Hebrews actually tells us what happened before he was obedient and humbled himself. He was a man learning obedience until he was perfected. Just like all of us are trying to do. Except he did it, perfectly.

Does this sound like God?

Hebrews 5
8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him 10and was designated by God as high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Are you saying Jesus was a sinner who learned how to obey God?

Much love!

 

[Runningman]

Right back to you . . . What was Jesus repenting of? Do you charge Him with sin?

Much love!

I don't think Jesus repented of his sin, but everyone's sin.

 

[Runningman]

Paul had Timothy circumcised (Acts 16:3). What do you suppose was the purpose of that?

To not make the people in the area angry?

 

[Runningman]

Are you saying Jesus was a sinner who learned how to obey God?

Much love!

No, but a human who had to learn to choose good and reject evil. This is who Immanuel is; a normal human who underwent spiritual development.

Isaiah 7
14Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel. 15By the time He knows enough to reject evil and choose good, He will be eating curds and honey.

Luke 2
52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.