Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses
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10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Runningman
Active Member
Not according to scripture. John 20:17 Jesus said their God is the Father. When Thomas said "my God" in John 20:28 he wasn't calling Jesus God. No one in the Bible believed Jesus is God. It doesn't exist.
No sir. Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is the "image of the invisible God" therefore Jesus isn't the invisible God. What was created "through" Jesus is the church. The "all things" were not reconciled to God through Jesus until his blood on the cross (Colossians 1:20) meaning it occurred after Jesus was born.
Runningman
Active Member
I quoted Scripture.
John 20:28 (NKJV)
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Col 1 By Jesus all things were created! Jesus is God.
See above, "By Jesus ALL THINGS were created". Sure you're not JW?
Runningman
Active Member
Anyone can quote scripture removed from context. The context is about Thomas' God being the Father. Thomas' God is the same God as Jesus' God. Jesus isn't his own God. Therefore Thomas' God isn't Jesus.
John 20
17“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”
According to scripture, Jesus isn't God but rather the image of God. "The image of God" creating isn't a Biblical doctrine. What was created "through" Jesus in the context of Colossians 1:15-20 is the church, hence the reconciliation that occurred through his blood on the cross.
Furthermore, being in the image of God doesn't make someone God. For example, normal Christians are conformed to the image of the Son, but that doesn't make Christians God.
Colossians 1
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Romans 8
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
According to Matthew 11:25, the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth. Acts 17:24 says God is the Lord of heaven and earth who created all things.
Jesus was never called the Lord of heaven and earth one time in scripture.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Chosen or elected is what I said and what Scripture says we are. Is that the same as anointed, in your view?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No. They are not attacking the Bible just an idol common in Christendom wholly absent from Scripture. Read my signature for clarification.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Appeal to Diversion. Your question has nothing to do with the "by" v "in" Christ discussion.
And your question was already answered by @Keiw in 711. Again, your claim is false and repeating it does not make it true.
And when he again brings the firstborn into the inhabited world, he says, And let all the angels of God bow down before him.
Heb 1:6
Thomas called Jesus "My Lord and my GOD". Jesus taught Thomas in person. Was Jesus a bad teacher?
And Paul said, Col 1 By Jesus all things were created! Jesus is God.
You sure sound JW!
Isaiah 48:16-17
16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me."17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God,
Jesus is GOD!!
Runningman
Active Member
The scripture does not contradict itself. Jesus was clear about who Thomas' God is and who the only true God is.
Paul was generalizing in the context of the church. "All things" or "everything" doesn't often apply to literally every thing. The "by" you keep using is more appropriately translated as "through" because the Greek word refers to the instrumentality of Jesus in creating the church. The actual creator of the material universe would be God, the Father, also known as YHWH. (Acts 4:24-27, Acts 17:24, Isaiah 44:24, etc)
Some examples of all-inclusive language not being literal, please see Colossians 1:23, where Paul said the gospel had been preached to "every creature" under heaven. For that to be true, every single last living thing in the universe would need to have the gospel preached to them. It is true in its appropriate context, but not literally true.
Another example is in John 14:26 where Jesus said that advocate/Holy Spirit would teach the disciples "all things" yet we know with certainty that the disciples didn't become omniscient. It, once again, refers to a specific context.
Measure, balance, and responsibility are required to wield the scriptures appropriately. I suggest you study these things.
That doesn't say Jesus is God. Jesus isn't YHWH in so many places it isn't even funny.
Psalm 110
1The LORD[YHWH] said to my Lord:[Jesus]
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”
Psalm 2
7I will proclaim the decree
spoken to Me by the LORD:[YHWH]
“You are My Son;[Jesus]
today I have become Your Father.[YHWH]
Isaiah 28
16So this is what the Lord GOD[YHWH] says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone,[Jesus] a sure foundation;
the one who believes will never be shaken.
Isaiah 42
1“Here is My[YHWH] Servant,[Jesus] whom I uphold,
My Chosen One,[Jesus] in whom My soul[YHWH] delights.
I will put My Spirit[YHWH] on Him,[Jesus]
and He will bring justice to the nations.
Isaiah 53
10Yet it was the LORD’s[YHWH] will to crush Him[Jesus]
and to cause Him to suffer;
and when His soul is made a guilt offering.
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
Micah 5
4He will stand and shepherd His flock[Jesus]
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majestic name of the LORD His God.[YHWH]
And they will dwell securely,
for then His greatness will extend
to the ends of the earth.
Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers,[YHWH] has glorified His servant Jesus.
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Your JW bible admits that Jesus is God. Heb 1 Let ALL God's angels WORSHIP Jesus!
Why don't you take one Scripture at a time instead of JW smoke screening?
Of all your points, this is one you need to let go of right away. The "through" whom all things were made in Col. 1:16 is obviously not a reference just to the church, but to everything under the sun. I'm happy to dive into the Greek with you if you wish, and we can also discuss Aristotle's four causes (material, formal, efficient and final) which lay out the distinctions that Paul seems to have adopted. But hopefully you'll just see it in the English text.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Why would you take this to mean he is not referring to 2 Beings?
I said “my mother and my father.” Obviously, I am referring to a mystical multi-person Being but for reasons unknown, I neglect to mention others persons associated with this multi-person Being.
Fair question. But when you said "my mother and my father" were you addressing a single person, as it appears Thomas was?
Runningman
Active Member
Prove it then. There is nothing in Hebrews 1 about Jesus being God.
Like you've been doing? Your talking points have been all over the place. You've gone from Thomas, to worship, to Jesus being resurrected, to YHWH, to talking about hell, to Colossians 1, to using strawman arguments. What's next?
Why can't you just refer to one single thing that simply says what your premise is? If you had an ace, you would have played it by now and it would have been settled. People have been trying to do what you're doing for millenia. None have succeeded.
Heb 1 Let all God's angels WORSHIP Him! Oh yeah!
Those who don't believe that Jesus is God are heading for Hell fire. No doubt you reject Hell fire that Jesus warned us about!
Runningman
Active Member
It should be limited to the church because the Bible repeatedly says Jesus isn't the Sovereign Lord and Creator of heaven and earth.
Let's put it like this, if you walked into a donut shop said "I'll have all things." You may get a strange look, but they would undoubtedly know you were wanting one of each kind of donut. They wouldn't give you everything under the sun.
In context of who Paul is talking to and what he is talking about, he's talking about the church which is why Colossians 1:18 refers to Jesus being the head of the church, but 1 Corinthians 11:3 refers to God being the head of Christ.
God created the church through Christ as the Greek states. Jesus isn't the author of the creation of the church, but the instrument or channel through which God worked. This same basic narrative is repeated in many other places in the Bible.
Colossians 1
16because in Him were created all things in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and unto Him.
Of course Thomas was calling Jesus his God. "OMG" is a modern thing. They didn't talk like that then. They had too much respect.
This is simple. Jesus created everything that was created, therefore He was not created. Jesus became obedient, before that He was sovereign. I can go on and on like this. Jesus exists in the present tense before Abraham did exist, as only an eternal being can. On and on.
Much love!
Runningman
Active Member
Bowing down to Jesus isn't in reference to being God. See Philippians 2:10,11 that prove Jesus doesn't get any glory for it.
Hebrews 1 also says this in verse 5:
5For to which of the angels did God[YHWH] ever say:
“You are My Son;[Jesus]
today I have become Your Father”[YHWH]
That means Jesus isn't God.
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