A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[Wrangler]

You are denying that Jesus was the Word.

That primarily because he is not. Jesus is a person. Words are not people. John 1:1 does not even invoke Jesus.

It took me a long time to grasp why trinitarians even make this assertion. And the proof text is 20:31 where John is kind enough to state his purpose in writing his Gospel. Wouldn’t you know it, he didn’t say anything about proving a multi-purpose God OR that believing it is a condition of salvation. Why do you suppose that is?

Consider the possibility of your reading into what the text does not say. Words are WHAT’s not WHO’s.

 

[Wrangler]

I personally believe that Jesus didn't pre-exist as a being known as the Word simply because there is nothing clear in the Old Testament or New Testament about Jesus pre-existing.

To double down on this, there is nothing suggesting believing this is the central message of the Bible.

Why believing this is so important cannot be found in Scripture.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

The Word could either possibly be a god or something godly. I personally believe that Jesus didn't pre-exist as a being known as the Word simply because there is nothing clear in the Old Testament or New Testament about Jesus pre-existing. This is also supported by the Greek.

What was Jesus saying or doing before he was born? (verse or passage please)


That would refer to Jesus being born. God's word (logos) is His divine utterance which can be understood as His plans. God's plans manifested on earth. Why not?


If I understand you correctly, you believe the definition of the name Immanuel means if someone is named that then they are God? I ask that because I have seen people say that before.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

The Word could either possibly be a god or something godly. I personally believe that Jesus didn't pre-exist as a being known as the Word simply because there is nothing clear in the Old Testament or New Testament about Jesus pre-existing. This is also supported by the Greek.

What was Jesus saying or doing before he was born? (verse or passage please)


That would refer to Jesus being born. God's word (logos) is His divine utterance which can be understood as His plans. God's plans manifested on earth. Why not?


If I understand you correctly, you believe the definition of the name Immanuel means if someone is named that then they are God? I ask that because I have seen people say that before.

I will answer the last here because it is not I who say this but a myriad of experts.

Your other comments are just plain silly. Especially " I personally believe that Jesus didn't pre-exist as a being known as the Word simply because there is nothing clear in the Old Testament or New Testament about Jesus pre-existing." Yet you dont believe other things that are readily read in the old or new testaments.

But before going on with my reply... take a moment or so and read

Pre-existence of Christ - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pre-existence of Christ - Wikipedia
​

This doctrine is supported in John 17:5 when Jesus refers to the glory that he had with the Father "before the world existed" during the Farewell Discourse. John 17:24 also refers to the Father loving Jesus "before the foundation of the world".

Now as to Your last point....

From Matt 1:23... “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”

1.

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Immanuel​

Immanuel [N] [E] [H] https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/smiths-bible-dictionary/immanuel.html
When the angel appeared to Joseph in a dream, he learned that his fianc Mary was"with child through the Holy Spirit" and would give birth to a son named"Immanuel" ( Matthew 1:18 Matthew 1:23 )."Immanuel" is a Hebrew word meaning "God with us" and expresses the wonder of the incarnation, that God "became flesh and made his dwelling among us"

2.

Got Questions

Immanuel is a masculine Hebrew name meaning “God with us” or “God is with us.” The name Immanuel appears in the Bible three times, twice in the Old Testament book of Isaiah (7:14 and 8:8), and once in the Gospel of Matthew (1:23).

3.
https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › Immanuel

Immanuel Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
​

The meaning of IMMANUEL is messiah. Middle English Emanuel, from Late Latin Emmanuel, from Greek Emmanouēl, from Hebrew ʽimmānūʼēl, literally, with us is God

4.
https://www.learnreligions.com › what-does-immanuel-mean-700741

What Is the Meaning of Immanuel in the Bible? - Learn Religions
​

Immanuel in the Bible. Immanuel (pronounced Ĭm mănʹ ū ĕl) is a masculine personal name in Hebrew meaning "God with us," or "God is with us."

5.
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Immanuel

Immanuel or Emmanuel (Hebrew: עִמָּנוּאֵל, romanized: ʿĪmmānūʾēl, meaning, "God with us" or "God is with us"; also romanized: Imanu'el; and Emmanouël or Ἐμμανουήλ in Koine Greek of the New Testament) is a Hebrew name that appears in the Book of Isaiah (7:14) as a sign that God will protect the House of David.[1]

6.

https://www.biblegateway.com › resources › encyclopedia-of-the-bible › Immanuel-Emmanuel

Immanuel, Emmanuel - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway
​

The name of "Immanuel," the son born of the virgin, is to be the watchword for God's people, the word of hope, no matter how desperate conditions become among men. He is the hope because His name means that God is with us.

7..

https://www.ligonier.org › learn › articles › immanuel

Immanuel by Gerald Bilkes - Ligonier Ministries
​

Dec 19, 2023Immanuel. Gerald Bilkes. 3 Min Read. Immanuel is one of Christ's most precious names. It is a combination of two Hebrew words that together mean "God with us.".

8.
https://www.biblestudytools.com › dictionaries › bakers-evangelical-dictionary ›

When the angel appeared to Joseph in a dream, he learned that his fianc Mary was"with child through the Holy Spirit" and would give birth to a son named"Immanuel" ( Matthew 1:18 Matthew 1:23 )."Immanuel" is a Hebrew word meaning "God with us" and expresses the wonder of the incarnation, that God "became flesh and made his dwelling among us"

9.
https://www.neverthirsty.org › bible-qa › qa-archives › question › what-does-immanuel-mean

What does Immanuel mean? | NeverThirsty
​

Conclusion:​

Immanuel means “God with us.” That is who Jesus is – our God!

Finally... before you make charges that you cannot prove, you best make sure there is nothing that will
counter your claims.....

 

[Runningman]

I will answer the last here because it is not I who say this but a myriad of experts.

Your other comments are just plain silly. Especially " I personally believe that Jesus didn't pre-exist as a being known as the Word simply because there is nothing clear in the Old Testament or New Testament about Jesus pre-existing." View attachment 44828 Yet you dont believe other things that are readily read in the old or new testaments.

But before going on with my reply... take a moment or so and read

Pre-existence of Christ - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pre-existence of Christ - Wikipedia​

​

This doctrine is supported in John 17:5 when Jesus refers to the glory that he had with the Father "before the world existed" during the Farewell Discourse. John 17:24 also refers to the Father loving Jesus "before the foundation of the world".

Now as to Your last point....

From Matt 1:23... “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”

1.

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Immanuel​

Immanuel [N] [E] [H] Immanuel, - Smith's Bible Dictionary Online
When the angel appeared to Joseph in a dream, he learned that his fianc Mary was"with child through the Holy Spirit" and would give birth to a son named"Immanuel" ( Matthew 1:18 Matthew 1:23 )."Immanuel" is a Hebrew word meaning "God with us" and expresses the wonder of the incarnation, that God "became flesh and made his dwelling among us"

2.

Got Questions

Immanuel is a masculine Hebrew name meaning “God with us” or “God is with us.” The name Immanuel appears in the Bible three times, twice in the Old Testament book of Isaiah (7:14 and 8:8), and once in the Gospel of Matthew (1:23).

3.
https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › Immanuel

Immanuel Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster​

​

The meaning of IMMANUEL is messiah. Middle English Emanuel, from Late Latin Emmanuel, from Greek Emmanouēl, from Hebrew ʽimmānūʼēl, literally, with us is God

4.
https://www.learnreligions.com › what-does-immanuel-mean-700741

What Is the Meaning of Immanuel in the Bible? - Learn Religions​

​

Immanuel in the Bible. Immanuel (pronounced Ĭm mănʹ ū ĕl) is a masculine personal name in Hebrew meaning "God with us," or "God is with us."

5.
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Immanuel

Immanuel or Emmanuel (Hebrew: עִמָּנוּאֵל, romanized: ʿĪmmānūʾēl, meaning, "God with us" or "God is with us"; also romanized: Imanu'el; and Emmanouël or Ἐμμανουήλ in Koine Greek of the New Testament) is a Hebrew name that appears in the Book of Isaiah (7:14) as a sign that God will protect the House of David.[1]

6.

https://www.biblegateway.com › resources › encyclopedia-of-the-bible › Immanuel-Emmanuel

Immanuel, Emmanuel - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway​

​

The name of "Immanuel," the son born of the virgin, is to be the watchword for God's people, the word of hope, no matter how desperate conditions become among men. He is the hope because His name means that God is with us.

7..

https://www.ligonier.org › learn › articles › immanuel

Immanuel by Gerald Bilkes - Ligonier Ministries​

​

Dec 19, 2023Immanuel. Gerald Bilkes. 3 Min Read. Immanuel is one of Christ's most precious names. It is a combination of two Hebrew words that together mean "God with us.".

8.
https://www.biblestudytools.com › dictionaries › bakers-evangelical-dictionary ›

When the angel appeared to Joseph in a dream, he learned that his fianc Mary was"with child through the Holy Spirit" and would give birth to a son named"Immanuel" ( Matthew 1:18 Matthew 1:23 )."Immanuel" is a Hebrew word meaning "God with us" and expresses the wonder of the incarnation, that God "became flesh and made his dwelling among us"

9.
https://www.neverthirsty.org › bible-qa › qa-archives › question › what-does-immanuel-mean

What does Immanuel mean? | NeverThirsty​

​

Conclusion:​

Immanuel means “God with us.” That is who Jesus is – our God!

Finally... before you make charges that you cannot prove, you best make sure there is nothing that will
counter your claims.....

I am aware of John 17:5 and then right before that in John 17:3 it directly says that only the Father is God. That means Jesus isn't God if John 17:3 is accepted on its own ground.

As far as the pre-existence of Jesus, we should determine in what sense Jesus pre-existed. Whether it be literal or figurative is the matter I believe. If literal, we should have a rich plethora of verses about someone named God the Son or God the Word doing things, interacting with people, saying things, etc. There is, frankly, nothing.

So what does the Bible say about Jesus in heaven? Well, John 3:13 says the "Son of Man" descended from heaven. That can't be literal because "son of man" refers to humans throughout the Bible. So a human literally descended from heaven? No. Not in the literal sense at least. We know Jesus was born a human.

So what was the glory Jesus was referring to before the creation of the world? Well, there is more than once sense in which the Bible refers to Jesus glory: one is the crucifixion and the other and is his resurrection.

Jesus was crucified and resurrected before the world existed? That can't be right either. Jesus was crucified and resurrected one time in Israel.

So, once again, there is no literal pre-existence of Jesus. All of what is written of him in the Old Testament is prophetic. None of it had even happened yet.

Matt 7
39He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given,e because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

1 Corinthians 15
43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.

John 12
27Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? No, it is for this purpose that I have come to this hour. 28Father, glorify Your name!”

Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.”

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

That primarily because he is not. Jesus is a person. Words are not people. John 1:1 does not even invoke Jesus.

It took me a long time to grasp why trinitarians even make this assertion. And the proof text is 20:31 where John is kind enough to state his purpose in writing his Gospel. Wouldn’t you know it, he didn’t say anything about proving a multi-purpose God OR that believing it is a condition of salvation. Why do you suppose that is?

Consider the possibility of your reading into what the text does not say. Words are WHAT’s not WHO’s.

Good... lets have a good old fashioned bible burning cause it misleads everyone.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

I am aware of John 17:5 and then right before that in John 17:3 it directly says that only the Father is God. That means Jesus isn't God if John 17:3 is accepted on its own ground.

I am out of this before I get a warning by delving into something you dont believe in but
we ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT

As far as the pre-existence of Jesus, we should determine in what sense Jesus pre-existed.

Ask the Catholics... They are the ones with the Nicene Creed.... not the protestants

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.

Whether it be literal or figurative is the matter I believe. If literal, we should have a rich plethora of verses about someone named God the Son or God the Word doing things, interacting with people, saying things, etc. There is, frankly, nothing.

So what does the Bible say about Jesus in heaven? Well, John 3:13 says the "Son of Man" descended from heaven. That can't be literal because "son of man" refers to humans throughout the Bible. So a human literally descended from heaven? No. Not in the literal sense at least. We know Jesus was born a human.

Like I said... ... The bible seems to be so expletive up that it needs a good burning annd then you and those that agree with you can join those of the SDA and write a bible of correctness.

So what was the glory Jesus was referring to before the creation of the world? Well, there is more than once sense in which the Bible refers to Jesus glory: one is the crucifixion and the other and is his resurrection.

Jesus was crucified and resurrected before the world existed? That can't be right either. Jesus was crucified and resurrected one time in Israel.

So, once again, there is no literal pre-existence of Jesus. All of what is written of him in the Old Testament is prophetic. None of it had even happened yet.

Matt 7
39He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given,e because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

1 Corinthians 15
43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.

John 12
27Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? No, it is for this purpose that I have come to this hour. 28Father, glorify Your name!”

Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.”

BYE

 

[Runningman]

I am out of this before I get a warning by delving into something you dont believe in but
we ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT




Ask the Catholics... They are the ones with the Nicene Creed.... not the protestants

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.


Like I said... View attachment 44834... The bible seems to be so expletive up that it needs a good burning annd then you and those that agree with you can join those of the SDA and write a bible of correctness.

BYE

Fair enough, but this forum needs to have this discussion and so long as we have kept it civil and cordial I think no one has attempted to intervene. However, yes I do understand your point. Perhaps this is better kept for another time.

 

[Keiw]

Indeed. And the exact same phrase (ὁ θεὸς) in John 20:28 has the exact same meaning, wouldn't you agree?

Thomas wasn't calling Jesus his God, He called Jesus his Lord and most assuredly looked to heaven and said my God. The darkness cannot see it because they refuse to believe Jesus who clearly teaches-John 17:3-the one who sent him= FATHER is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

 

[Keiw]

Same thing! Do you read your own posts?

I think the WatchTower deceitfully edited out Jesus being God, at least twice.

The JW bible says Jesus is God: NWT 1970 Heb 1 Let all God's angels WORSHIP him!

twisted trinity religion errors. Religions of darkness =2Thess 2:3

 

[Keiw]

That is not true. I even asked a friend of mine who is Greek--she says it is the Word was God.

Many Greek scholars through history translated the NT and put a god at John 1:1--She listens to darkness.

 

[RedFan]

Thomas wasn't calling Jesus his God, He called Jesus his Lord and most assuredly looked to heaven and said my God.

Since you would have had to be in the room to most assuredly know this, why didn't you take a video of Thomas looking up to heaven as he mouthed "my God," so we could all see?

 

[Jack]

twisted trinity religion errors. Religions of darkness =2Thess 2:3

What makes you think you're right and all Bible believing Christians are wrong? Kingdom Hall told you maybe?

 

[face2face]

What makes you think you're right and all Bible believing Christians are wrong? Kingdom Hall told you maybe?

Hey Jack, how are you going? Still banging on about the JW's? Sounds like you're still lonely...are you studying anything at the moment? Got your teeth into some solid Bible reading?
F2F

 

[face2face]

Since you would have had to be in the room to most assuredly know this, why didn't you take a video of Thomas looking up to heaven as he mouthed "my God," so we could all see?

Wow Red, you're asking a lot of Thomas dont you think?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Since you would have had to be in the room to most assuredly know this, why didn't you take a video of Thomas looking up to heaven as he mouthed "my God," so we could all see?

What about a bit of context here…..the Bible does not contradict itself…..so neither would Thomas contradict Jesus….he was one of the 12, closely associated with Jesus continually for three and a half years. Do we imagine a faithful apostle going against what Jesus taught about himself and his relationship with his Father?

What did Jesus say to Mary Magdalene just a few verses up in the same chapter….when he was first resurrected?….John 20:17…
”Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

Who is the God and Father of Jesus? The very same God and Father of his disciples.
Is there more than one God?
Does God have “brothers” or “sons”?

Was the God of Jesus in heaven only when Christ was on earth?

Rev 3:12…this was written after his return to heaven….
“‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.”

What did Paul say…?
Col 1:3..
”We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you”.

As a collective, who did the apostles say was their God?
1 Cor 8:5-6…
”For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”

Did Thomas disagree with the rest of them?
Is the third party even mentioned in any of these verses?

please explain……

 

[Jack]

Hey Jack, how are you going? Still banging on about the JW's?

Yep, still trying to pull them from the fire.

Sounds like you're still lonely...

Get your hearing checked.

are you studying anything at the moment? Got your teeth into some solid Bible reading?
F2F

Always reading or thinking about God's Word the Christian Bible.

 

[TheHC]

Because before John worte 3:16 he wrote 1:1 which states

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I’m sure you don’t think the Bible contradict itself.

Saying “the Word was God”, openly contradicts Jesus’ prayer, where He calls His Father, “the only true God.”

But Catholic priest (ie., a trinitarian) and acclaimed scholar John L. McKenzie translates the latter part of John 1:1 (into English) as, “…and the Word was a Divine Being”, and that doesn’t contradict.

— “Dictionary of the Bible“, p.617

And what about instances where theos without the article is used by John as a reference to -- using your favored moniker -- YHWH? Are we to glean John's intention that an unarticulated theos = YHWH in some cases and not others?

in those instances, read the context. Please.

Did the 1st-century Christians (Peter, Paul, Martha, etc.) worship Jesus? No. As Jews, they worshipped Yahweh…. And in fact, they referred to Jesus as God’s “Holy Servant.” (Acts 4:24:30)

So when referencing Yahweh, when they said “God”, or wrote “God”, there was no need to specify “the God”; others knew who they meant.


Back then, people had to be taught about Jesus, that he was mankind’s Savior; everyone knew the God of the Bible was Yahweh.

Today, it’s the opposite: everyone knows about Jesus, but no one knows sbout Yahweh!

This suggests that 1 John 5:19 & Revelation 12:9 speak truth.

 

[Wrangler]

There seems to be a lot of repetition in this thread by those who insist that John 1:1 uses the article ho theos to refer to, well, God with a capital G, and uses just theos without the article when referring to some lesser, small-g god.

Again.

While delving into this may be enlightening for some, it is a bit of a diversion.

Sticking to John 1:1, do you see no significance in the inconsistent use of "ho" before the word "theos?" What are the possible explanations for this inconsistency in John 1:1?

Do you see no significance in the inconsistent use of "ho" before the word "theos?

 

[RedFan]

Do you see no significance in the inconsistent use of "ho" before the word "theos?

Here is what I see: In John 3:2 there are inconsistent uses of "ho" (however conjugated; the article adapts to the ending of the noun it precedes) before the word "theos" (again, however conjugated), yet clearly both are references to -- well -- Yahweh. The significance I see in this is that neither the article nor its absence is dispositive of the question. That's the only explanation of why inconsistent uses in John 1:1 and John 3:2 can yield different results, as you claim.