A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[Aunty Jane]

John 3:2 is not poetic or figurative. Comparing very different verses for reasons unclear about a thread asking about our denominational friends.

Perhaps we can add John 10:31-36 here….?
In Greek there is the definite article and the absence of the definite article…..
“The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God [theos].” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said you are gods’? [theos] If he called them gods [theos], to whom the word of God[ho theos] came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God [ho theos]’?” (NASB1995)

Interesting use of the definite article in this passage….
The Jews were not saying that Jesus claimed to be “ho theos” but only ”theos”…meaning a divine personage, sent from God.…but not Yahweh.…though to these misguided Jews who wanted an excuse to do away with this imposter, still meaning blasphemy to say one is “the son of God” in a different sense to what the Jews understood their sonship.

Jesus highlighted the fact that Yahweh itself called the human judges in Israel “gods” (theos) because they were his representatives, acting in his behalf. If God himself can call even humans “theos” then calling Jesus “theos” can mean the same thing, as Jesus then went on to say….
”do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God [ho theos]’?”
He called himself the “son of ho theos”…..Jesus clearly did not teach that he and his Father are “Yahweh” (God with a capital “G”) but that he was sent by the one he called “ho theos”.
Yahweh was the God and Father of Jesus…..

 

[Jack]

Its recorded history Jack. Israel from Moses on up until this very day, teach, serve and worship a single being God-YHVH(Jehovah)

And Moses clearly taught: Gen 1 God said "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness"!

Father and Son are God.

Col 1 By Jesus all things were created!

So yes the Jw,s teach fact on the matter.

I don't know of any verse that JW's don't TWIST to change the meaning.

We are Jehovah witnesses Jack, not watchtower. Stop disrespecting us or we are through.

Oh WOW! The WatchTower is disrespect? Wait til Kingdom Hall finds out what you just said!

 

[Wrangler]

And Moses clearly taught: Gen 1 God said "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness"!

Father and Son are God.

The only way you can get “Father and Son” from that is to read it into the text. Eisegesis.

 

[Jack]

The only way you can get “Father and Son” from that is to read it into the text. Eisegesis.

Then Who is US and OUR? ONLY God is the Creator.

Gen 1 God said "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness"!

Col 1 By Jesus all things were created.

Fits perfectly!

 

[Wrangler]

Then Who is US and OUR? ONLY God is the Creator.

I agree that only God is the creator and you have to speculate who the only Creator is talking to.

 

[Jack]

I agree that only God is the creator and you have to speculate who the only Creator is talking to.

No speculation needed. Father and Son.

 

[Keiw]

And Moses clearly taught: Gen 1 God said "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness"!

Father and Son are God.

Col 1 By Jesus all things were created!

I don't know of any verse that JW's don't TWIST to change the meaning.

Oh WOW! The WatchTower is disrespect? Wait til Kingdom Hall finds out what you just said!

The watchtower is a magazine, a non living pamphlet made of paper. I am a Jehovah witness. I forgot facts mean nothing to you and your false reasonings.

 

[Jack]

The watchtower is a magazine, a non living pamphlet made of paper. I am a Jehovah witness. I forgot facts mean nothing to you and your false reasonings.

So you openly REJECT the WatchTower Society that publishes your JW bible? How long have you been JW?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Then Who is US and OUR? ONLY God is the Creator.

For the benefit of the readers here Jack…..

That is not what Colossians 1:15-17 says…..it says that Jesus is God’s “firstborn”….who is your firstborn? You?
Can God be his own son? It’s absolute illogical nonsense.
Rev 3:14…Jesus calls himself…”the beginning of the creation of God“ (KJV)…so you are arguing with Jesus, not us….(your Bible) If the son is “the beginning of God’s creation” then he is part of that creation.

Col 1:15-16 (KJV) says… that Jesus “is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature“…if he is the firstborn of “every creature”, then he himself is a creature….a creation of God. Your Bible says this.

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him”.

The word “created” used in the KJV there, in Greek (ginomai) means….

1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
   1. of events
3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
   1. of men appearing in public
4. to be made, finished
   1. of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5. to become, be made.”

So, the one who ’brought creation into existence’…..simply fabricated it according to the “Great Architect’s“ instructions using the raw materials that God brought into existence….and using the holy spirit which is God’s power. Being included as part of the creative process, was God’s gift to him, which was not only “made” by him but also “for” him…seems a strange thing to say if God created things only to give them to himself….?

It also says in other translations, that creation came “through” the son….IOW, the son was the agency “through” whom God created.
Like an architect is credited with the design of a building but the construction company actually built it from the materials according to the architect‘s plans and specifications. Do you not get that simple statement?
If you knew your Bible as well as you know Christendom’s party lines, you could see that quite clearly, but you have lenses in your glasses that only allows you to see what your own ‘programming’ has taught you.
Are the brainwashed accusing others of being brainwashed?
After being raised in Christendom…my brain needed washing, and purging of all the false teachings that were fed to me….the truth ”set me free”.

Gen 1 God said "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness"!

God was not talking to himself….God was obviously not alone…he had a “master workman” who was under his Father’s guidance and direction throughout the whole project. (Prov 8:30-31)

 

[Jack]

For the benefit of the readers here Jack…..

That is not what Colossians 1:15-17 says…..it says that Jesus is God’s “firstborn”….who is your firstborn? You?
Can God be his own son? It’s absolute illogical nonsense.
Rev 3:14…Jesus calls himself…”the beginning of the creation of God“ (KJV)…so you are arguing with Jesus, not us….(your Bible) If the son is “the beginning of God’s creation” then he is part of that creation.

Col 1:15-16 (KJV) says… that Jesus “is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature“…if he is the firstborn of “every creature”, the he himself is a creature….a creation of God. Your Bible says this.

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him”.

The word “created” used in the KJV there, in Greek (ginomai) means….

1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
   1. of events
3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
   1. of men appearing in public
4. to be made, finished
   1. of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5. to become, be made.”

So, the one who ’brought creation into existence’…..simply fabricated it according to the “Great Architect’s“ instructions using the raw materials that God brought into existence….and using the holy spirit which is God’s power. Being included as part of the creative process, was God’s gift to him, which was not only “made” by him but also “for” him…seems a strange thing to say if God created things only to give to himself….?

It also says in other translations, that creation came “through” the son….IOW, the son was the agency “through” whom God created.
Like an architect is credited with the design of a building but the construction company actually built it from the materials according to the architect‘s plans and specifications. Do you not get that simple statement?
If you knew your Bible as well as you know Christendom’s party lines, you could see that quite clearly, but you have lenses in your glasses that only allows you to see what your own ‘programming’ has taught you.
Are the brainwashed accusing others of being brainwashed?
After being raised in Christendom…my brain needed washing, and purging of all the false teachings that were fed to me….the truth ”set me free”.

Col 1 By Jesus all things were created.

Your JW smokescreen noted.

God was not talking to himself….God was obviously not alone…he had a “master workman” who was under his Father’s guidance and direction throughout the whole project. (Prov 8:30-31)

ONLY God is the Creator in the Bible. Prove otherwise.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Then Who is US and OUR? ONLY God is the Creator.

Gen 1 God said "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness"!

Col 1 By Jesus all things were created.

Fits perfectly!

 

[Runningman]

Then Who is US and OUR? ONLY God is the Creator.

Gen 1 God said "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness"!

Col 1 By Jesus all things were created.

Fits perfectly!

There is no fit because Genesis 1 says God made the heavens and the earth. Colossians 1 says Jesus is the image of the invisible God. The "image of God" creating the heavens and the earth isn't a biblical doctrine. If Jesus was himself God then that would have been the perfect time to just say that, but that wasn't Pauls point. At all.

The rest of Colossians 1 doesn't call Jesus the creator. It say's God created the church through Jesus in this context.

Let me ask you a question. Is your god an image or is your God actually God Himself?

 

[Wrangler]

No speculation needed. Father and Son.

So, you are a binitarian?

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

I agree that only God is the creator and you have to speculate who the only Creator is talking to.

HMMMM ???? Maybe Mrs. God.

After all there are those followers of the Nicene Creed who believe.....

The beginning which states

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father

So he was begotten way back... had to have been a Mrs. God????????

Seriously though as you know I am just jesting .

Answer this question, please.

Who do YOU think was the Word that John spoke about? Or don't you believe John?

 

[Wrangler]

Answer this question, please.

Who do YOU think was the Word that John spoke about? Or don't you believe John?

Words are WHAT's not WHO's. A word is what a person does, it is not a separate person from the person whose words they originate.

To understand that the divine logos was put into the mouth of one among the people of Israel, read Deutoronomy 18:15-18. This was fulfilled in John 1:45-46:
45 Philip found Nathanael, a friend, and burst in with excitement:

Philip: We have found the One. Moses wrote about Him in the Law, all the prophets spoke of the day when He would come, and now He is here—His name is Jesus, son of Joseph the carpenter; and He comes from Nazareth.
Nathanael: 46 How can anything good come from a place like Nazareth?
Philip: Come with me, and see for yourself.

This explains why Jesus said he did not speak on his own authority. Whose authority did Jesus speak on behalf? As all prophets, he spoke on behalf of God's authority. This is why Jesus said @ John 12:49
49 because I am not speaking of My own volition and from My own authority. The Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and speak.

The divine word of God was put in Jesus mouth, as foretold, and he did as he was told, to not only say what words but how to say it. Not much of a God who has no authority, is commanded and told what to say and how to say it. This explains why Jesus is said to be a servant of God.
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.
Acts 3:13

Being a faithful servant of God, God made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
God has made Jesus both Lord and Anointed King
Acts 2:36

I hope this answers your question on WHAT I think the word was that John spoke about.

 

[Runningman]

Who do YOU think was the Word that John spoke about? Or don't you believe John?

John wrote about the Word differently in 1 John 1:1-3, calling it an it, a thing, that was revealed to them. I am inclined to believe that John 1 is applying personification to the Word. This may have been intuitive when it was originally written since in Hebrew poetry there are a lot of examples of non-person things being personified and there wasn't a Hebrew theology about a pre-existent being known as the Word in the Old Testament.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.
3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write these things so that our joy may be complete.

 

[RedFan]

Words are WHAT's not WHO's. A word is what a person does, it is not a separate person from the person whose words they originate.

To understand that the divine logos was put into the mouth of one among the people of Israel, read Deutoronomy 18:15-18. This was fulfilled in John 1:45-46:
45 Philip found Nathanael, a friend, and burst in with excitement:

Philip: We have found the One. Moses wrote about Him in the Law, all the prophets spoke of the day when He would come, and now He is here—His name is Jesus, son of Joseph the carpenter; and He comes from Nazareth.
Nathanael: 46 How can anything good come from a place like Nazareth?
Philip: Come with me, and see for yourself.

This explains why Jesus said he did not speak on his own authority. Whose authority did Jesus speak on behalf? As all prophets, he spoke on behalf of God's authority. This is why Jesus said @ John 12:49
49 because I am not speaking of My own volition and from My own authority. The Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and speak.

The divine word of God was put in Jesus mouth, as foretold, and he did as he was told, to not only say what words but how to say it. Not much of a God who has no authority, is commanded and told what to say and how to say it. This explains why Jesus is said to be a servant of God.
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.
Acts 3:13

Being a faithful servant of God, God made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
God has made Jesus both Lord and Anointed King
Acts 2:36

I hope this answers your question on WHAT I think the word was that John spoke about.

Fair point, in terms of the modern understanding of "Word." But let's use Logos instead, as John did, and try to put ourselves in the First Century when John wrote, to understand what nuances influenced him.

Greeks had used Logos for centuries-- as early as Heraclitus -- to refer to a rationale divine intelligence. Philo, the first century Jewish philosopher, thought of Logos as some kind of intermediary between God and the created universe. Following Aristotelian philosophical distinctions between types of causes, Philo held that God is the efficient cause, by whom the cosmos was made, while the Logos was the instrumental cause, by means of which the cosmos was made. This subtle distinction was recognized even by Paul, his contemporary, who wrote to the Corinthians of “one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.”

For Philo as for Paul, the creative Logos was also the “image” of God referenced in Genesis’ telling phrase, “Let us make mankind in our image.” Philo wrote in his famous Questions and Answers on Genesis:

“Why is it that he speaks as if of some other god, saying that he made man after the image of God, and not that he made him after his own image? Very appropriately and without any falsehood was this oracular sentence uttered by God, for no mortal thing could have been formed on the similitude of the supreme Father of the universe, but only after the pattern of the second deity, who is the Word of the supreme Being.”

Yet, for Philo, calling the creative Logos a “second deity” entailed no retreat from monotheism, because this second principle remained subordinate to the first. As Philo wrote in his Questions and Answers on Exodus:

“In the first place (there is) He Who is elder than the one and the monad and the beginning. Then (comes) the Logos of the Existent One, the truly seminal substance of existing things. And from the divine Logos, as from a spring, there divide and break forth two powers. One is the creative (power), through which the Artificer placed and ordered all things; this is named ‘God.’ And (the other is) the royal (power), since through it the Creator rules over created things; this is called ‘Lord.’”

 

[Wrangler]

Fair point, in terms of the modern understanding of "Word." But let's use Logos instead, as John did, and try to put ourselves in the First Century when John wrote, to understand what nuances influenced him.

There really is no reason to do this. He explicitly wrote his purpose for writing his Gospel at 20:31. No poetry. No support for the claim that 1 =3.

All the Gospels have the same message; Jesus is the long awaited Christ, the son of YHWH, who came to save the world by being the sacrifice for many.

There is no need to ignore the central messsage of all 4 Gospels to focus on Eisegesis ‘nuances.’

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Words are WHAT's not WHO's. A word is what a person does, it is not a separate person from the person whose words they originate.

To understand that the divine logos was put into the mouth of one among the people of Israel, read Deutoronomy 18:15-18. This was fulfilled in John 1:45-46:
45 Philip found Nathanael, a friend, and burst in with excitement:

Philip: We have found the One. Moses wrote about Him in the Law, all the prophets spoke of the day when He would come, and now He is here—His name is Jesus, son of Joseph the carpenter; and He comes from Nazareth.
Nathanael: 46 How can anything good come from a place like Nazareth?
Philip: Come with me, and see for yourself.

This explains why Jesus said he did not speak on his own authority. Whose authority did Jesus speak on behalf? As all prophets, he spoke on behalf of God's authority. This is why Jesus said @ John 12:49
49 because I am not speaking of My own volition and from My own authority. The Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and speak.

The divine word of God was put in Jesus mouth, as foretold, and he did as he was told, to not only say what words but how to say it. Not much of a God who has no authority, is commanded and told what to say and how to say it. This explains why Jesus is said to be a servant of God.
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.
Acts 3:13

Being a faithful servant of God, God made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
God has made Jesus both Lord and Anointed King
Acts 2:36

I hope this answers your question on WHAT I think the word was that John spoke about.

You give new meaning to the understanding of Joe Biden.... Simply Amazing.

So when it sayd the Word (cap W) was with God and the Word (cap W) was God... you say hewas with Himself....

Well, shucks... no wonder God had to create man with all his flaws.... he just must have been lonely for another like Him.... having made flawed man in His image....

 

[RedFan]

There really is no reason to do this. He explicitly wrote his purpose for writing his Gospel at 20:31. No poetry. No support for the claim that 1 =3.

All the Gospels have the same message; Jesus is the long awaited Christ, the son of YHWH, who came to save the world by being the sacrifice for many.

There is no need to ignore the central messsage of all 4 Gospels to focus on Eisegesis ‘nuances.’

Knowing John's purpose in writing does not solve all issues with knowing his meaning. Contemporaneous context is still important in divining the latter. To get it right (or as close as we can come), I would think the meaning of "Logos" to a first century Greek writer is more important than the meaning of "Word" today in English.