A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[Wrangler]

You give new meaning to the understanding of Joe Biden.... Simply Amazing.

So when it sayd the Word (cap W) was with God and the Word (cap W) was God... you say hewas with Himself....

Well, shucks... no wonder God had to create man with all his flaws.... he just must have been lonely for another like Him.... having made flawed man in His image....

Not sure what that was all about. However, Christiandom has abused capital words for a long time of common words. You attach significance to translators choice of capitalization abuse.

I was taught He/Him was to be capitalized when referring to the Creator. Later additons corrected this error as pronouns are not proper nouns and ought not be capitalized.

 

[Wrangler]

I disagree.

Of course you do.

I would think the meaning of "Logos" to a first century Greek writer is more important than the meaning of "Word" today in English.

It is but that is not your point at all. Your point is to introduce a segue AWAY from what a first century Greek writer meant by Logos as affirmed by his purpose statement in 20:31.

If the writers thought in any way that God had literally became incarnate, they would say so. They would not write so that all such "evidence" requires extreme Eisegesis.

 

[RedFan]

Of course you do.

It is but that is not your point at all. Your point is to introduce a segue AWAY from what a first century Greek writer meant by Logos as affirmed by his purpose in 20:31.

How so? I don't see his purpose shedding much light on what he meany by Logos in his Prologue. And I sure don't want to segue away from the Prologue's meaning!

Lots of Trinitarians read the Prologue as absolutely dispositive and conclusive proof of Trinitarianism (or at least Binitarianism). Well, here is one Trinitarian who disagrees. Please, PLEASE don't lump me in with them! I think they make a fair argument, but it is far from conclusive. (See my Post #1,076.) I find that I cannot be so dogmatic on what John meant. Hence my search for the contextual nuances.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Knowing John's purpose in writing does not solve all issues with knowing his meaning. Contemporaneous context is still important in divining the latter. To get it right (or as close as we can come), I would think the meaning of "Logos" to a first century Greek writer is more important than the meaning of "Word" today in English.

Possibly:

But I have never seen a translated bible that usses the word logos in it so we are given what we all have read for our lives.... until we expand our learning into other things.

I have read this just now.. Another perspective
But I also have to run right now so will need to address this more later.

Two Important Greek Words in the Bible: Logos and Rhema

The Bible uses two Greek words for “word” in the New Testament: logos and rhema. Find out the meaning of these words and how they impact our Christian life.

blog.biblesforamerica.org

Two Important Greek Words in the Bible: Logos and Rhema​

Did you know that in Greek, the original language of the New Testament, two different Greek words are used to refer to the word of God? One is logos, and the other is rhema.

Understanding the meaning of these two Greek words can help us know and experience God in a deeper way. That’s why we’re taking some time in this post to discuss logos and rhema and their importance to our Christian lives.

The Greek word logos​

The more commonly known of these two Greek words is logos. In the New Testament, logos is used to refer to the constant, written word, which is recorded in the Bible. How incredible it is that we human beings can have God’s written word in our hands!

When we read the written word, we can learn about God and know His ways, His salvation, and His plan for mankind. Without the logos, we would have no way to know God’s purpose, or our place in that purpose. We would be left to wonder or guess what His intention is. But we have to thank God for giving us the Bible, which communicates to us who He is and what He desires.

Knowing about God objectively is certainly a wonderful thing, but we can go further to know God on a personal level and experience Him subjectively. This is where rhema comes in.

The Greek word rhema​

The lesser-known of these two Greek words is rhema, which is used to refer to the instant, personal speaking of God.

Our God isn’t silent; He’s a speaking God. His written word is a record of His speaking. But that’s not all. He continues to speak today, and He wants to speak directly to us.

It’s by the rhema word that we can know God subjectively, in our personal experience. Now let’s take a closer look at how we can receive this rhema from God.

Logos plus rhema​

Both logos and rhema are crucial to our Christian life. God uses His logos Word to speak His rhema word to us. And God’s living, instant speaking always corresponds with and never contradicts His written Word.

So the more we read the written Word, even storing it up in us by memorizing and musing over it, the more God can speak instant words to us. His instant words in any given situation guide us and turn us to Him when we take heed to them.

Let’s look at how this could happen. For example, let’s say you’re at work or school and something happens that makes you very upset. The more you think about it, the more bothered you are. As you let all your thoughts about it swirl around in your mind, you begin to feel spiritually deadened. All of a sudden, Romans 8:6, a verse you had read before, pops into your head: “The mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace.”

Immediately you realize, “No wonder I’m so dead! I’ve been setting my mind on my flesh. I need to turn back to the Lord to set my mind on Him.” So you begin to pray, “Lord, I turn back to You. I set my mind on You in my spirit right now. Thank You, Lord, when my mind is set on my spirit, it’s life and peace!”

As you turn to the Lord in your spirit, you’re saved from being consumed by your negative thoughts, and you’re ushered into enjoying life and peace from God.

How did all this happen? The Lord used the constant, written word (logos) you’d previously read and memorized to speak an instant and personal word to you (rhema) in your particular situation. The Lord’s instant speaking strengthened you to turn to Him and supplied you right where you were.

The functions of the rhema word​

The rhema word does more than help us in particular situations. It also imparts life into us and washes us so we can grow in the divine life and be inwardly transformed. By imparting life into us and washing us, the rhema word works out God’s purpose in us.

Let’s look at two verses where we can see this.

1. Rhema imparts life to us

John 6:63 says:

“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”

Note 3 in the New Testament Recovery Version on the words clearly explains the difference between logos and rhema and how the Lord’s words impart the divine life to us:

“The Greek word for words, here and in v. 68, is rhema, which denotes the instant and present spoken word. It differs from logos (used for Word in 1:1), which denotes the constant word. Here the words follows the Spirit. The Spirit is living and real, yet He is very mysterious, intangible, and difficult for people to apprehend; the words, however, are substantial. First, the Lord indicated that for giving life He would become the Spirit. Then He said that the words He speaks are spirit and life. This shows that His spoken words are the embodiment of the Spirit of life. He is now the life-giving Spirit in resurrection, and the Spirit is embodied in His words. When we receive His words by exercising our spirit, we get the Spirit, who is life.”

The Spirit gives us life through His rhema words, which the Lord said are spirit and life. So how can we receive life from the Spirit? The key for us to receive the Lord’s rhema words is that we must exercise our spirit when we come to the Bible.

The best way to exercise our spirit is by prayer. By praying with the Word, we contact the Spirit in the Word. Then the words on the page are no longer simply black and white letters; they become rhema, and are spirit and life to us. This is how the Word of God feeds us and supplies us with life for our growth in Christ.

2. Rhema washes us

Ephesians 5:26 says:

“That He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word.”

Washing in this verse doesn’t refer to the washing away of sins by the blood of Jesus. Instead, it’s the washing of the water in the word, or rhema. Note 4 in the New Testament Recovery Version on word explains:

“The Greek word denotes an instant word. The indwelling Christ as the life-giving Spirit is always speaking an instant, present, living word to metabolically cleanse away the old and replace it with the new, causing an inward transformation. The cleansing by the washing of the water of life is in the word of Christ. This indicates that in the word of Christ there is the water of life.”

To be washed from our sins, we need the redeeming blood of Christ. But we need to realize we must also be washed inwardly from the old things of our natural life. This happens by the washing of the water of the living, instant, present rhema word. Through that cleansing away of the old and replacing with the new, we’re inwardly changed, or transformed.

We need to receive rhema​

So we need to open ourselves to the Lord dwelling in our spirit who speaks His instant word to us. By receiving this instant word, life is imparted into us, and we’re washed inwardly.

Going back to the example we used before, the verse suddenly popping into your head wasn’t a coincidence; it was the Lord speaking to you. When you receive that word, you’re not only helped to turn back to the Lord, but life is imparted into you, and inwardly you’re washed from losing your temper.

Certainly God wants us to read, study, and memorize His written word. But even more, He wants us to receive His instant, living speaking. Let’s all regularly read and pray with the logos so the Lord can speak rhema words to impart life into us and wash us for the fulfillment of His marvelous purpose and plan.

 

[Wrangler]

How so? I don't see his purpose shedding much light on what he meany by Logos in his Prologue.

You can be obtuse if you feel it helps your cause.

If a set of figurative language was meant as you claim, the literal purpose would include this grand claim, e.g,. All this was written so that you’d believe Jesus is God incarnate.

The absence of such proof text is the strongest argument against the 1 is 3 claim. The purpose of John’s Gospel and the Bible, as a whole, says something. And what it says, its central message, is not what you claim.

Your whole position is absurd! If I say my goal today is to go to the store, that’s the goal. You ignore this and claim all kinds of other goals, not stated - but claim I implied.

 

[RedFan]

You can be obtuse if you feel it helps your cause.

I have no cause other than to try to learn the truth.

If a set of figurative language was meant as you claim, the literal purpose would include this grand claim, e.g,. All this was written so that you’d believe Jesus is God incarnate.

I do not claim "Logos" was used figuratively. I claim that it has alternative meanings in Greek. "Word" "Reason" etc. (It's not productive for us to debate which of us is better schooled in Greek. I'll just say that I am not a neophyte.)

I do not claim that John wrote so that we'd believe Jesus is God incarnate. John wrote "so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." John 20:31 (ESV). Whether Jesus was God incarnate is a separate issue which -- I'll say this for the third time now -- I do not believe is resolved by John's gospel one way or the other.

The absence of such proof text is the strongest argument against the 1 is 3 claim.

You affirm what I don't deny (strange that you haven't seen this from our many exchanges). I agree, the Bible contains no proof text or set of proof texts that, alone or in combination, establish the Trinity as clearly true. If it did, folks like Arius or Sabellius or any number of early "heretics" would never have been able to get any traction for their positions, nor would JW's or other modern-day Unitarians. But obviously they did, and they have.

Your whole position is absurd!

Well, you can add absurdity to lying and idolatry, I guess.

 

[Jack]

There is no fit because Genesis 1 says God made the heavens and the earth.

Well yeah, Col 1 By Jesus ALL things were created.

Colossians 1 says Jesus is the image of the invisible God.

Of course.

The "image of God" creating the heavens and the earth isn't a biblical doctrine. If Jesus was himself God then that would have been the perfect time to just say that, but that wasn't Pauls point. At all.

Col 1 By Jesus ALL things were created!

The rest of Colossians 1 doesn't call Jesus the creator. It say's God created the church through Jesus in this context.

BINGO! Jesus is God!

Let me ask you a question. Is your god an image or is your God actually God Himself?

JW's HATE Biblical answers!

John 20 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God"!

 

[Jack]

So, you are a binitarian?

Just a Bible believer.

Peter said to Jesus, "Lord you know ALL THINGS"!

ONLY God knows all things. Jesus is God.

 

[Jack]

How so?

Nearly every verse in the Christian Bible says so, even the JW bible says Jesus is God and Hell fire is FOREVER!

 

[RedFan]

Well yeah, Col 1 By Jesus ALL things were created.

Of course.

Col 1 By Jesus ALL things were created!

BINGO! Jesus is God!

JW's HATE Biblical answers!

John 20 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God"!

You're missing a step, Jack. The fact that Thomas said to Jesus "my Lord and my God" tell us Thomas's opinion. There is one more step before we can conclude that Thomas was correct. Do you want to fill it in, or would you like me to?

 

[Jack]

You're missing a step, Jack. The fact that Thomas said to Jesus "my Lord and my God" tell us Thomas's opinion.

Well, since Thomas was Jesus' Apostle I'll stick with him.

There is one more step before we can conclude that Thomas was correct. Do you want to fill it in, or would you like me to?

Thomas was taught DIRECTLY by Jesus. What are you credentials? The WatchTower dictators?

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Let me ask you a question. Is your god an image or is your God actually God Himself?

Very telling. THIS question.

If unbelievers read the Bible and use valid interpretive modes of study, they can comprehend much of the Bible. However, understanding the meaning of a biblical passage involves the whole person — spirit, mind, and soul.

The triune man you cannot comprehend.

The Bible is one of a kind. It is the only manual for life that is supernaturally infused with God’s spirit. It is living and breathing. The Bible contains the writings taught not by human wisdom but by the Spirit of God

1 Cor 2:13 "which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words."

Without the desire of this kind of melding of the spirits... Man's and God's you will never understand, which is such a shame, for you are missing such a fullness.. a completeness that is beyond explanation.

 

[RedFan]

Well, since Thomas was Jesus' Apostle I'll stick with him.

Thomas was taught DIRECTLY by Jesus. What are you credentials?

I have no credentials. So maybe you should put me on your ignore list. I'm just another ignorant Trinitarian, I guess.

(By the way, Peter was taught DIRECTLY by Jesus too, and later denied even knowing the man. So we cannot conclude, without more, that every word uttered by an Apostle is true.)

 

[Jack]

I have no credentials. So maybe you should put me on your ignore list. I'm just another ignorant Trinitarian, I guess.

Well I guess you could call me a "Trinitarian". But I think that may be a banned subject here.

(By the way, Peter was taught DIRECTLY by Jesus too, and later denied even knowing the man. So we cannot conclude, without more, that every word uttered by an Apostle is true.)

But Peter clearly stated that Jesus is God and Jesus didn't deny it.

 

[RedFan]

Well I guess you could call me a "Trinitarian". But I think that may be a banned subject here.

But Peter clearly stated that Jesus is God and Jesus didn't deny it.

Yup, Jesus not denying Thomas's declaration, and instead calling him blessed for it, fills in the missing gap in the argument. An admission by silence. Good job!

 

[Wrangler]

Just a Bible believer.

Peter said to Jesus, "Lord you know ALL THINGS"!

ONLY God knows all things. Jesus is God.

I agree only God knows all things. Contrary to Peter, our lord admitted he does not know the hour of his return - only God, the Father knows that.

Drops mic.

 

[Jack]

I agree only God knows all things. Contrary to Peter, our lord admitted he does not know the hour of his return - only God, the Father knows that.

Drops mic.

As Jesus became flesh, totally human who "emptied Himself" of God's attributes, as Peter said, Jesus regained the knowledge of ALL THINGS when He was resurrected.

Philippians 2:6-7
6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force.
7 On the contrary, he emptied himself, in that he took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are. And when he appeared as a human being,

 

[RedFan]

I agree only God knows all things. Contrary to Peter, our lord admitted he does not know the hour of his return - only God, the Father knows that.

Drops mic.

Certainly our Lord didn't know this when he said what is recounted in Mark 13:32. But perhaps he knows now. I tend to view the earthly Jesus -- the one who, according to Phil. 2:6-7, "did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped, but emptied himself" -- as having emptied himself of lots of attributes of the Deity, omniscience among them.

 

[The Learner]

Well, how about their name? Shouldn’t we all be witnesses to Jehovah, the English translation for YHWH, Jesus’ God and our God?

Correct translation is something like Yahweh, even their interlinear says that

Jehovah's Witnesses - Kingdom Interlinear Greek Scriptures 1969 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Jehovah's Witnesses - Kingdom Interlinear Greek Scriptures 1969

archive.org

 

[Wrangler]

Certainly our Lord didn't know this when he said what is recounted in Mark 13:32. But perhaps he knows now.

Irrelevant. The text proves Jesus does (or did) not know it all, excluding him as God.

In addition, if you are relying on Jesus’ knowledge changing over time, this is yet another proof he is NOT God, since God does not change over time.