A question for mormons.

[justbyfaith]

1Co 4:12, And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13, Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Very Christian

JBF, don’t let the bullies sidetrack this thread. I believe that 2 other threads you started on this topic were ambushed by emotionalism.

It’s important to know what various groups claiming to be Christian believe. And I believe that the point you make in the OP is important.

The truth is that we can’t do any works to be saved. Jesus Christ did the work for us and finished that work on the cross. We are saved by grace through faith and not of our own works. As Christians, our “works” are deeds done by faith in His finished work.

Hang in there. You have a right to point out heresies where you see them and ask questions.

 

[DNB]

A baby doesn't much understand their earthly father at all. But they are still the father's child. Academic understanding comes with maturity and growth.
Same with a newborn Christian and the Father.

I do think academic understand is super super important - don't get me wrong. But I've just seen people conflate a person's ability to pass a theology test that with salvation, and that's not ok.

But a baby does, he instinctively perceives that this person before him is not of a foreign substance, for otherwise, that would cause fear. Just like any other newborn creature on earth, they intuitively gravitate to their own species, and run from the others. Point is, there is a recognition there, and an affinity.

Man was created in God's image, this is why that we also, intuitively 'grope' for Him, and when His presence is realized, we revere and pray to Him accordingly. Thus, one who believes in the creeds that you mentioned, I ask, who do they pray to, ...they truly, truly, and disgracefully, have no clue. Their focus is indiscriminate, for they believe that it makes no difference to pray to either the Holy Spirit one minute, then to the Father another, and then to Christ when they're in the mood for that.
God does not take this lightly, nor does it bring Him glory having such confusion and redundancy in the Godhead.

Again, one's Christology reflects about their perception and reverence for God. And, as you should see now, I'm not talking about scholasticism here.

 

[justbyfaith]

Paul is speaking to Jewish converts, who are used to fulfilling religious commitments to God rather than participating in a loving, intimate relationship based on faith/works. You are failing to recognize the context and Paul’s audience

And actually, Paul is speaking to Christians at Rome who were both Jewish and Gentile.

And even if he was merely speaking to Jewish converts, his statements would have corrected their reliance on their own works to save them.

We are saved only by faith in Jesus and His finished work. The works that we do as Christians stem out of the gratitude we have towards God over that He saved us through providing forgiveness through His shed blood.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

But a baby does, he instinctively perceives that this person before him is not of a foreign substance, for otherwise, that would cause fear. Just like any other newborn creature on earth, they intuitively gravitate to their own species, and run from the others. Point is, there is a recognition there, and an affinity.

Man was created in God's image, this is why that we also, intuitively 'grope' for Him, and when His presence is realized, we revere and pray to Him accordingly. Thus, one who believes in the creeds that you mentioned, who do they pray to, ...they truly, truly, and disgracefully, have no clue. Their focus is indiscriminate, for they believe that it makes no difference to pray to either the Holy Spirit one minute, then to the Father another, and then to Christ when they're in the mood for that.
God does not take this lightly, nor does it bring Him glory having such confusion and redundancy in the Godhead.

Again, one's Christology reflects about their perception and reverence for God. And, as you should see now, I'm not talking about scholasticism here.

Ok.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

1Co 4:12, And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13, Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

I think everyone on here (and in the world) has been persecuted at times.

 

[Randy Kluth]

@Jane_Doe22

Consider John 5:24:

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The words of Jesus, in which He says that He is speaking "verily, verily" and tells us that, in effect, everlasting life begins at the moment of faith; i.e. the moment you have faith, you have passed from death unto life: you are saved by grace.

How then do you reconcile this with what is written in the Book of Mormon, from which they greatly derive their doctrine of salvation, that "ye are saved by grace, after all that ye can do"?

It seems to me that the Book of Mormon and its doctrines are not compatible with biblical Christianity.

But if you can answer this question, I may consider mormonism a little bit further.

Indeed. Very astute. Mormons fail to recognize the centrality of *regeneration* in our Salvation. It isn't enough to just *do good.* If that was true, then Salvation would be by a positive balance of good vs evil in our works.

But Christ himself determined that was not enough. Though it is reasonable to believe good works are important in Salvation, they are not what actually save us. What saves us is the exclusive work of Christ by which we are *regenerated,* and receive a brand new nature.

This new nature solves the problem of our doing carnal works because we no longer live in the carnal Man. When we sin we temporarily divert away from our spiritual nature, but we do not thereby deny our spiritual nature. When we repent we return to living in our spiritual nature.

By contrast, those who live in their carnal nature, and sometimes choose the good and sometimes the evil live in a nature that does not rise to the status of a Saved Life. The truly Saved Life is a *spiritual life,* and nothing else.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Hang in there. You have a right to point out heresies where you see them and ask questions.

Asking questions that you desire to listen to the answers is always a good thing.
It's how we learn about each other.

 

[Grailhunter]

I happen to be a scripture human...and no, not everyone knows scripture well enough to be able to quote it properly at opportune times.

Case in point:

Pro 25:11, A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.



We are not saved by works; we are saved unto good works: and this is an important distinction to be made; lest anyone think that they can give money to the poor and that this will save them when they are omitting the most important factor...faith in the true Christ.

Is salvation by works in Mormonism? If not, what do they do with the verse in question (in the Book of Mormon) "ye are saved by grace, after all that ye can do."

Since faith and surrender is not something that we do, it is something that we become; and it is something that primarily the Lord does in us.

The word "do" to me denotes works and I think that this is how most will take it who read the verse apart from adding the teaching that "all that ye can do" refers to absolute surrender.

Actually, most Mormons are Tritheists because of the book of Abraham.

Actually not.
The Father, Son, and Spirit are three different persons. One God.
The Bible also refers to the Father/Son/Spirit in plural and we do see the multiple persons at point. For example, "let us make man in our image" (Gen 1:26) and Jesus's baptism with all three members of the Godhead present.

I understand that there are some Christians who hold to Tritheism along with the Mormons. I believe that they simply do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity as it is leveled out in doctrine; they have misconceptions about the Trinity.

But if someone knows something about God; and then declares something that is not true of God contrary to their knowledge: I believe that they will be held accountable.

Scripture stands as truth as we read it at face value; historical context is rarely needed to be able to understand what has been written. Otherwise we would be reliant on history teachers in order to be able to correctly understand the Bible.

JBF good to see you back. I have been praying for you and yours.
On this topic you need to expand your bubble a little. It does not matter if it is the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Mormons, they have been having interaction and communications with the Deity for a very long time.

Fundamentalism is a valid religion in itself….the focus on the Holy Bible. But according to this religious belief there have been no updates or corrections. It does not take a deep study of the Gospels to see that Yeshua could be eyeball to eyeball with the Apostles and they would get it wrong or not quite understand. The Apostle Paul gave many explanations, but even at that the Holy Bible documents only the first 60 years or so of Christianity. As Christ said at the time, "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.”

2000 years later, tens of thousands of denominations make it clear that the Holy Bible can be interpreted in many ways. Which one! Which one? Why would anybody think that God was gagged for 2000 years? Why would anybody think that God was bound somewhere in a corner? Sure there was corrections to be made. Sure there is additional information. There is more than a possibility that as a whole the Trinity has been more active over the last 2000 years than during the first 65 years of Christianity. Attend an active Holy Ghost church and see if God is gagged! It is no surprise and should be expected that God would continue to teach…additional information and corrections to the Holy Bible fore sure. The Holy Bible is not a God...It is an abbreviated account of the first 65 years of Christianity.....And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

It is absolutely an absurd idea that God has been anything but incredibly active, teaching, correcting, giving new information, blessings, and healings.

The Trinity has many formulas and it is no surprise. I adamantly oppose the whole oneness formula which is a deception. Still I am not going to condemn those that believe that. And still I respect the beliefs of others that want to hold their religion to the confines of the Holy Bible. That is fine.

As far as works…do….good deeds. James was no disagreeing with Paul, he was pointing out the obvious. What good in a doctor that does not help people? What good is the good boy that sits like a bump on log and waits to go to heaven? He is no service to anyone but himself. He is no service to Christ. It’s a good way to become self-righteous. The parable of the talents….I sat on a log to make sure I did not sin so I would make it to heaven….that is burying your talents and you know what happened with that. What does Christ expect us to do? What He told us to do. What He showed us to do. Look at the parable of the Goats and the Sheep. Look at all that He did. Did He tell us to believe, did He tell us to be baptized, did He tell us to perform the bread and wine ritual. People want to call that works! You want to argue with that…fine! The bread and wine ritual does not save you. But what does it mean if you are saved and you have no life in you and He does not raise you in the end? You tell me? You might want to look at those scriptures.

Again fundamentalism is a valid religion and I worship and have a blast with Christians that believe that way. Nothing that I am going to condemn. But if you are interested enough to do a deep study of Christianity, you might consider expanding your bubble a little. The Mormons and Catholic have been given additional information and books. That is part of their religion, it is not a bad thing to believe that God has been active over the past 2000 years. If you are going to condemn…pick on the ones that give our God all the characteristics Satan. The Mormons and the Catholics are not the ones that are telling you that you are damned before you are born…

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Indeed. Very astute. Mormons fail to recognize the centrality of *regeneration* in our Salvation. It isn't enough to just *do good.* If that was true, then Salvation would be by a positive balance of good vs evil in our works.

Randy, have you read my earlier posts here and the foundational importance Christ & faith in Him plays in my life?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Is salvation by works in Mormonism? If not, what do they do with the verse in question (in the Book of Mormon) "ye are saved by grace, after all that ye can do."

Since faith and surrender is not something that we do, it is something that we become; and it is something that primarily the Lord does in us.

The word "do" to me denotes works and I think that this is how most will take it who read the verse apart from adding the teaching that "all that ye can do" refers to absolute surrender.

Actually, most Mormons are Tritheists because of the book of Abraham.

Actually not.
The Father, Son, and Spirit are three different persons. One God.
The Bible also refers to the Father/Son/Spirit in plural and we do see the multiple persons at point. For example, "let us make man in our image" (Gen 1:26) and Jesus's baptism with all three members of the Godhead present.

I understand that there are some Christians who hold to Tritheism along with the Mormons. I believe that they simply do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity as it is leveled out in doctrine; they have misconceptions about the Trinity.

But if someone knows something about God; and then declares something that is not true of God contrary to their knowledge: I believe that they will be held accountable.

Scripture stands as truth as we read it at face value; historical context is rarely needed to be able to understand what has been written. Otherwise we would be reliant on history teachers in order to be able to correctly understand the Bible.

JBF good to see you back. I have been praying for you and yours.
On this topic you need to expand your bubble a little. It does not matter if it is the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Mormons, they have been having interaction and communications with the Deity for a very long time.

Fundamentalism is a valid religion in itself….the focus on the Holy Bible. But according to this religious belief there have been no updates or corrections. It does not take a deep study of the Gospels to see that Yeshua could be eyeball to eyeball with the Apostles and they would get it wrong or not quite understand. The Apostle Paul gave many explanations, but even at that the Holy Bible documents only the first 60 years or so of Christianity. As Christ said at the time, "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.”

2000 years later, tens of thousands of denominations make it clear that the Holy Bible can be interpreted in many ways. Which one! Which one? Why would anybody think that God was gagged for 2000 years? Why would anybody think that God was bound somewhere in a corner? Sure there was corrections to be made. Sure there is additional information. There is more than a possibility that as a whole the Trinity has been more active over the last 2000 years than during the first 65 years of Christianity. Attend an active Holy Ghost church and see if God is gagged! It is no surprise and should be expected that God would continue to teach…additional information and corrections to the Holy Bible fore sure. The Holy Bible is not a God...It is an abbreviated account of the first 65 years of Christianity.....And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

It is absolutely an absurd idea that God has been anything but incredibly active, teaching, correcting, giving new information, blessings, and healings.

The Trinity has many formulas and it is no surprise. I adamantly oppose the whole oneness formula which is a deception. Still I am not going to condemn those that believe that. And still I respect the beliefs of others that want to hold their religion to the confines of the Holy Bible. That is fine.

As far as works…do….good deeds. James was no disagreeing with Paul, he was pointing out the obvious. What good in a doctor that does not help people? What good is the good boy that sits like a bump on log and waits to go to heaven? He is no service to anyone but himself. He is no service to Christ. It’s a good way to become self-righteous. The parable of the talents….I sat on a log to make sure I did not sin so I would make it to heaven….that is burying your talents and you know what happened with that. What does Christ expect us to do? What He told us to do. What He showed us to do. Look at the parable of the Goats and the Sheep. Look at all that He did. Did He tell us to believe, did He tell us to be baptized, did He tell us to perform the bread and wine ritual. People want to call that works! You want to argue with that…fine! The bread and wine ritual does not save you. But what does it mean if you are saved and you have no life in you and He does not raise you in the end? You tell me? You might want to look at those scriptures.

Again fundamentalism is a valid religion and I worship and have a blast with Christians that believe that way. Nothing that I am going to condemn. But if you are interested enough to do a deep study of Christianity, you might consider expanding your bubble a little. The Mormons and Catholic have been given additional information and books. That is part of their religion, it is not a bad thing to believe that God has been active over the past 2000 years. If you are going to condemn…pick on the ones that give our God all the characteristics Satan. The Mormons and the Catholics are not the ones that are telling you that you are damned before you are born…

Grailhunter, I think you missed some "/QOUTES" in your post. It makes it a jumpy to read.

 

[Grailhunter]

Grailhunter, I think you missed some "/QOUTES" in your post. It makes it a jumpy to read.

lol horrible of me....I did it on purpose. Just summing up. I think the bolder part is clear. Or is it different on your end?

 

[justbyfaith]

I think everyone on here (and in the world) has been persecuted at times.

Not everyone for righteousness' sake however.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

lol horrible of me....I did it on purpose. Just summing up. I think the bolder part is clear. Or is it different on your end?

I do see some italics.
But whatever. It's not something to loose sleep over.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I think everyone on here (and in the world) has been persecuted at times.

Not everyone for righteousness' sake however.

Justbyfiath, no one here is persecuting you.
And frankly, nobody should be persecuting anybody on a Christian forum (it does happen - commonly - but it shouldn't).
Instead of through rocks at folks and perceived flaws, we should all be focused on celebrating Christ and being the best disciples we possibly can be.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

lol horrible of me....I did it on purpose. Just summing up. I think the bolder part is clear. Or is it different on your end?

No, not horrible. Just a little confusing to figure out who said what.

 

[Grailhunter]

No, not horrible, just a little confusing to figure out who said what.

Am I normal! lol Prayer Warrior you know I am not normal! Is the bold readable? that is what matters. I am responding to the above statements good or bad.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Am I normal! lol Is the bold readable? that is what matters.

I don’t see any bold in your post. Do you mean the large text? It’s very legible.

I was confused about the smaller text above the large text. Is it a quote from JBF?

 

[justbyfaith]

Justbyfiath, no one here is persecuting you.

I don't think that I said that I thought that I was being persecuted.

But if you are saying that you think that I have a persecution complex; I might consider that to be persecution since I could end up being imprisoned in a mental hospital if that were to be taken seriously.

No; what I was referring to was the fact that I was reviled by one of the people on here; and that I subsequently blessed them.

 

[Grailhunter]

I don’t see any bold in your post. Do you mean the large text? It’s very legible.

I was confused about the smaller text above the large text.

I just went through and grabbed some statements to respond to. Not opposing all of them. I kept them small because they were just a gleaning.