A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[WalterandDebbie]

Moving the goal posts. 1st it was a name. Now it is a claim of who he is - that is not explicitly stated. "I am" is not a specific statement of who one is but a general statement of existence. Who is ready for more wine? I am. Who can Identify the body? I am going to identify the body. Who's has to go to the John? I am.

Hello Wrangler, Maybe from your understanding or from what you are saying here, but His words mean more to us than what you are saying, or maybe you are using them as an example.

But I believe Jesus' words here mean a lot, especially in John's Gospel Chapters 4: through 20, and also in the Old Testament Exodus 3:14, 15, 6:2, Deuteronomy 32:39, Isaiah 48:12, and Maybe more.

The point is He spoke about Himself as I AM in John 8:58 because that is who He is.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Are you saying what Jesus said He is not? because He is saying who He is, and I would rather take His words instead of any.

Actually Jesus said "I am" many times....but not once did he say "I am God".

Acts 9:4-5 for example, is where Jesus told Saul of Tarsus who he was after his encounter on the road to Damascus.....
"and he fell on the ground and heard a voice say to him “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5 And he said “Who are you, sir?” And he said “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."
He did not say..."I am God".

John 14:28 is a difficult one....
"You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am."
How is the Father "greater than I am" if the Father is "I Am"?

John 14:6...
"Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Jesus is the way to the Father, whom he called "the only true God". (John 17:3)

John 6:48...
“I am the bread of life."
"For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (John 6:33)
Jesus compared himself to the manna, sent by God to sustain his people in the wilderness....the manna wasn't God, but it was sent by God.

I know that we are not supposed to bring up this subject, but unless we can see the scriptures that actually put these assumptions about Jesus to rest, they will keep leading people in the wrong direction. There is a reason why "few" are on the road to life......the "many" don't question what they are told not to. The RCC kept people in captivity for centuries using this tactic.

The scriptures speak for themselves....but only if we let them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes the people who missed their messiah and deny him still today are the people we should look to for the best translation of the Old Testament.

It wasn't about the best translation since Christendom has dozens of them....pick one.
I said that the Jews are the best people to interpret their own language....can you argue with that?

 

[RLT63]

If the Jewish Tanakh translates the divine name as “I will be what I will be”, where does that lend credence to a translation of “I Am” and a connection to John 8:58? Jesus was answering a question about his age, not his status as a deity.

The primary definition of the Greek “theos” as used for ‘any god, goddess or divinity’, (understanding that the Greeks were a polytheistic nation) is not what most English speakers understand it to mean. Calling Jesus “theos” (god) can mean that his has divine authorisation, as the judges in ancient Israel were called “gods” by Jehovah himself, (John 10:31-36) which I showed you from the Greek Interlinear, the Jews were not accusing Jesus of claiming to be “ho theos”, but claiming his divinity.....his divine authorisation as “the son of God”, which is what he only ever called himself.

I know what the scriptures tell me, and it is vastly different to what Christendom told me in the church I grew up in....if we don’t do our own research, we will be trapped in with the devil’s “weeds” till the reapers arrive.

It’s time to wake up and see where the truth is.....the devil is not called a deceiver for nothing.

God appeared to Moses in the burning bush and told him to go to Egypt to lead the Israelites out of slavery. In response, Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?” (Exodus 3:13).

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you’” (Exodus 3:14).

The phrase translated “I am who I am” in Hebrew is ehyeh asher ehyeh. The word ehyeh is the first person common singular of the verb to be. It would be used in any number of normal situations: “I am watching the sheep,” “I am walking on the road,” or “I am his father.” However, when used as a stand-alone description, I AM is the ultimate statement of self-sufficiency, self-existence, and immediate presence. God’s existence is not contingent upon anyone else. His plans are not contingent upon any circumstances. He promises that He will be what He will be; that is, He will be the eternally constant God. He stands, ever-present and unchangeable, completely sufficient in Himself to do what He wills to do and to accomplish what He wills to accomplish.

When God identified Himself as I AM WHO I AM, He stated that, no matter when or where, He is there. It is similar to the New Testament expression in Revelation 1:8, “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, ‘who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.’” This is true of Him for all time, but it would have been especially appropriate for a message in Moses’ day to a people in slavery and who could see no way out. I AM was promising to free them, and they could count on Him! Source Gotquestions.org

 

[RLT63]

It wasn't about the best translation since Christendom has dozens of them....pick one.
I said that the Jews are the best people to interpret their own language....can you argue with that?

For someone who talks about translators having an agenda to insert their own beliefs into what they translate you seem to give the Jews a pass on this. It seems there’s only bias when you disagree

 

[RLT63]

Actually Jesus said "I am" many times....but not once did he say "I am God".

Acts 9:4-5 for example, is where Jesus told Saul of Tarsus who he was after his encounter on the road to Damascus.....
"and he fell on the ground and heard a voice say to him “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5 And he said “Who are you, sir?” And he said “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."
He did not say..."I am God".

John 14:28 is a difficult one....
"You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am."
How is the Father "greater than I am" if the Father is "I Am"?

John 14:6...
"Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Jesus is the way to the Father, whom he called "the only true God". (John 17:3)

John 6:48...
“I am the bread of life."
"For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (John 6:33)
Jesus compared himself to the manna, sent by God to sustain his people in the wilderness....the manna wasn't God, but it was sent by God.

I know that we are not supposed to bring up this subject, but unless we can see the scriptures that actually put these assumptions about Jesus to rest, they will keep leading people in the wrong direction. There is a reason why "few" are on the road to life......the "many" don't question what they are told not to. The RCC kept people in captivity for centuries using this tactic.

The scriptures speak for themselves....but only if we let them.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus makes seven statements beginning with the words I am. Each of these “I am” proclamations furthers our understanding of Jesus’ ministry in the world. They also link Jesus to the Old Testament revelation of God.

In the Old Testament, God revealed His name to Moses: “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you’” (Exodus 3:14). Thus, in Judaism, “I AM” is unquestionably understood as a name for God. Whenever Jesus made an “I am” statement in which He claimed attributes of deity, He was identifying Himself as God.

Here are the seven metaphorical “I am” statements found in John’s gospel:

“I am the bread of life” (John 6:35, 41, 48, 51). In this chapter, Jesus establishes a pattern that continues through John’s gospel—Jesus makes a statement about who He is, and He backs it up with something He does. In this case, Jesus states that He is the bread of life just after He had fed the 5,000 in the wilderness. At the same time, He contrasts what He can do with what Moses had done for their ancestors: “Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die” (verses 49–50).

“I am the light of the world” (John 8:12; 9:5). This second of Jesus’ “I am” statements in John’s gospel comes right before He heals a man born blind. Jesus not only says He is the light; He proves it. Jesus’ words and actions echo Genesis 1:3, “And God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light.”

“I am the door” (John 10:7 and 9, ESV). This “I am” statement stresses that no one can enter the kingdom of heaven by any other means than Christ Himself. Jesus’ words in this passage are couched in the imagery of a sheepfold. He is the one and only way to enter the fold. “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber” (verse 1, ESV).

“I am the good shepherd” (John 10:11, 14). With this “I am” statement, Jesus portrays His great love and care. He is the One who willingly protects His flock even to the point of death (verses 11 and 15). When Jesus called Himself the good shepherd, He unmistakably took for Himself one of God’s titles in the Old Testament: “The Lord is my shepherd” (Psalm 23:1).

“I am the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25). Jesus made this “I am” statement immediately before raising Lazarus from the dead. Again, we see that Jesus’ teaching was not just empty talk; when He made a claim, He substantiated it with action. He holds “the keys of death and the grave” (Revelation 1:18, NLT). In raising Lazarus from the dead, Jesus showed how He can fulfill Yahweh’s promise to ancient Israel: “[God’s] dead shall live; their bodies shall rise” (Isaiah 26:19, ESV). Apart from Jesus, there is neither resurrection nor eternal life.

“I am the way and the truth and the life”(John 14:6). This powerful “I am” statement of Christ’s is packed with meaning. Jesus is not merely one way among many ways to God; He is the only way. Scripture said that “The very essence of [God’s] words is truth” (Psalm 119:160, NLT), and here is Jesus proclaiming that He is the truth—confirming His identity as the Word of God (see John 1:1, 14). And Jesus alone is the source of life; He is the Creator and Sustainer of all life and the Giver of eternal life.

“I am the true vine” (John 15:1, 5). The final metaphorical “I am” statement in the Gospel of John emphasizes the sustaining power of Christ. We are the branches, and He is the vine. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit unless it is joined in vital union with the vine, only those who are joined to Christ and receive their power from Him produce fruit in the Christian life.

There are two more “I am” statements of Jesus in the Gospel of John. These are not metaphors; rather, they are declarations of God’s name, as applied by Jesus to Himself. The first instance comes as Jesus responds to a complaint by the Pharisees. “I tell you the truth,” Jesus says, “before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58). The verbs Jesus uses are in stark contrast with each other: Abraham was, but I am. There is no doubt that the Jews understood Jesus’ claim to be the eternal God incarnate, because they took up stones to kill Him (verse 59).

The second instance of Jesus applying to Himself the name I AM comes in the Garden of Gethsemane. When the mob came to arrest Jesus, He asked them whom they sought. They said, “Jesus of Nazareth,” and Jesus replied, “I am he” (John 18:4–5). Then something strange happened: “When Jesus said, ‘I am he,’ they drew back and fell to the ground” (verse 6). Perhaps explaining the mob’s reaction is the fact that the word he has been provided by our English translators. Jesus simply said, “I am.” Applying God’s covenant name to Himself, Jesus demonstrated His power over His foes and showed that His surrender to them was entirely voluntary (see John 10:17–18; 19:11). Source Gotquestions.org

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Actually Jesus said "I am" many times....but not once did he say "I am God".

Yes, Jane, Jesus spoke about Himself many times this way, and He also said that in Revelation 1:8

Revelation 1

Prologue
(Daniel 12:1–13)

1This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soona come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.

John Greets the Seven Churches

4John,

To the seven churches in the province of Asia:b

Grace and peace to you from Him who is and was and is to come, and from the seven Spiritsc before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood, 6who has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and power forever and ever! Amen.

7Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.

8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,d” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty.

John’s Vision on Patmos

9I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance that are in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and my testimony about Jesus. 10On the Lord’s day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11saying,e “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”

12Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was One like the Son of Man,f dressed in a long robe, with a golden sash around His chest. 14The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire. 15His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters. 16He held in His right hand seven stars, and a sharp double-edged sword came from His mouth. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest.

17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.

19Therefore write down the things you have seen, and the things that are, and the things that will happen after this. 20This is the mystery of the seven stars you saw in My right hand and of the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Love, Walter and Debbie

 

[WalterandDebbie]

We have done serious studies into the divine name of God, and found that "I Am" is not the correct translation of Exodus 3:14-15.
From the Jewish Tanakh, it reads....

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"		יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation."		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864

The divine name has for centuries been disputed, because without God's permission, the religious leaders ceased from pronouncing his name and that pronunciation was lost, but the Tanakh reveals what God's name really means. This is not God simply identifying himself as existing because the Jews already knew that their God existed....they had seen his power in the 10 plagues on Egypt and in crossing the Red Sea, having that pillar of cloud and fire to guide them, day and night.....this was God adding meaning to his name in connection with his chosen nation.... he would "BE or "BECOME" whatever he needed to BE in order for his purpose to be fulfilled concerning them. It was a statement about his intentions....

This makes the connection with John 8:58 somewhat bogus, since Jesus never said "I AM".
"Abraham your father rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

Mistranslating this passage was meant to prove that Jesus was admitting to being deity, when that is not what he said.
He was answering a question about his age, not his status as a deity.
Going to Strongs Concordance, we can see that what Jesus said can mean "I was" or "I have been"...."I Am" is a present tense answer to a past tense question. Grammatically incorrect.
Jesus was saying that he existed before Abraham, which was the answer to their question. And "I AM" was not the meaning of God's name as the Jewish Tanakh indicates. I am guessing that they are the best judges on how to read Hebrew....?

Many believe that the Jews accused Jesus of claiming to be "God, but they did not. This is not obvious in English translations, but very obvious in the Greek....Jehovah (Yahweh) is identified in the Greek with the definite article "ho" meaning, "the". In every instance where Jehovah is meant, the definite article appears as I will highlight in the following verses.....where the definite article is missing when both Father and Son are mentioned in the same passage, Jehovah is identified with the definite article.

John 10:31-36....Mounce Interlinear....
31 The ho Jews Ioudaios again palin brought bastazō stones lithos to hina stone lithazō him autos. 32 Jesus Iēsous said apokrinomai to them autos, · ho “ I have shown deiknymi you hymeis many polys noble kalos works ergon from ek the ho Father patēr; for dia which poios one ergon of them autos do you intend to stone lithazō me egō?” 33 The ho Jews Ioudaios answered apokrinomai him autos, “It is not ou for peri a noble kalos work ergon that we intend to stone lithazō you sy but alla for peri blasphemy blasphēmia; · kai it is because hoti you sy, a mere man anthrōpos, are making poieō yourself seautou God theos.” 34 Jesus Iēsous answered apokrinomai them autos, · ho “ Is it eimi not ou written graphō in en · ho your hymeis law nomos, ‘ I egō said legō, you are eimi gods theos’? 35 If ei the scripture called legō them ekeinos ‘ gods theos’ to pros whom hos the ho word logos of ho God theos came ginomai— and kai scripture graphē cannot ou dynamai be annulled lyō · ho— 36 do legō you hymeis say legō regarding the one whom hos the ho Father patēr consecrated hagiazō and kai sent apostellō into eis the ho world kosmos, ‘ You are blaspheming blasphēmeō,’ because hoti I said legō, ‘ I am eimi the hyios Son of ho God theos’?

Then differentiation is subtle, but its there in plain sight...HO THEOS (the God) is Jehovah, and THEOS (a god or a divine one) is Jesus...he is the Son of "ho theos". The Jews were accusing him of claiming divinity, not because he was claiming to be God. He said plainly that he was "the Son of HO THEOS".
No one had greater claim to divinity than Jesus did.

According to Strongs, "theos" has as its primary definition..."a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities".....Jesus fits that definition.


If the Father is eternal......what is this the "beginning of"? Jehovah had no beginning. We believe that the Father alone is eternal and that the "only begotten son" was his first and only direct creation, who was used by his Father in the creation of all other things. (Rev 3:14; John 1:2-3)
Creation came "THROUGH" him, not from him.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (Col 1:15-17)

This does not make Jesus the Creator, but the agency through whom creation was brought forth.

That is what we believe that the scriptures themselves teach.

Jane, I want to apologize for my misunderstanding of what you were saying in this post #749 I'm sorry.

Love, Walter

 

[Aunty Jane]

In the Gospel of John, Jesus makes seven statements beginning with the words I am. Each of these “I am” proclamations furthers our understanding of Jesus’ ministry in the world. They also link Jesus to the Old Testament revelation of God.

In the Old Testament, God revealed His name to Moses: “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you’” (Exodus 3:14). Thus, in Judaism, “I AM” is unquestionably understood as a name for God. Whenever Jesus made an “I am” statement in which He claimed attributes of deity, He was identifying Himself as God.

Let's go to Strongs again....Ex 3:14-15....

"And God H430 said H559 to Moses H4872, “[fn]I AM H1961 WHO H834 [fn]I AM H1961”; and He said H559, “This H3541 is H3541 what H3541 you shall say H559 to the sons H1121 of Israel H3478: ‘[fn]I AM H1961 has sent H7971 me to you.’”

God H430 furthermore H5750 said H559 to Moses H4872, “This H3541 is H3541 what H3541 you shall say H559 to the sons H1121 of Israel H3478: ‘The LORD H3068, the God H430 of your fathers H1, the God H430 of Abraham H85, the God H430 of Isaac H3327, and the God H430 of Jacob H3290, has sent H7971 me to you.’ This H2088 is My name H8034 forever H5769, and this H2088 is the [fn]name H2143 for [fn]all H1755 generations H1755 to use to call H2143 upon H2143 Me."

The footnote attached to "I AM" reads that this expression in Hebrew is "Related to the name of God, YHWH, rendered LORD, which is derived from the verb HAYAH, to be" which fits in with the Tanakh's rendering of "I will be what I will be"...it never meant "I Am" in the first place.

The Jews already knew who God was because Moses had been sent to liberate them from slavery in Egypt. They saw his miracles and knew that he existed.....what they were yet to experience was his response to their unfaithful conduct and disobedience. He would BE whatever he needed to BE in order for his will and purpose to be accomplished. This is what his name means....and calling on this name alone will mean salvation.

Acts 2:21.....
"And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved".....which "Lord" is this?
Peter was quoting Joel 2:32, which in the Takakh reads....

And it shall come to pass that whoever shall call in the name of the Lord shall be delivered, for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be a deliverance, as the Lord said, and among the survivors whom the Lord invites.

הוְהָיָ֗ה כֹּ֧ל אֲשֶׁר־יִקְרָ֛א בְּשֵׁ֥ם יְהֹוָ֖ה יִמָּלֵ֑ט כִּ֠י בְּהַר־צִיּ֨וֹן וּבִירֽוּשָׁלִַ֜ם תִּֽהְיֶ֣ה פְלֵיטָ֗ה כַּֽאֲשֶׁר֙ אָמַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֔ה וּבַ֨שְּׂרִידִ֔ים אֲשֶׁ֥ר יְהֹוָ֖ה קֹרֵֽא:

What is the name of this "Lord" ? It is "יְהֹוָ֖ה" (Yahweh)...not Jesus.
If you call on the name of the wrong "God", then "the only true God" will not recognize you. (John 17:3)

You swallow whatever you are told by "the church" system, even when it is shown to you that it is wrong, you still wont budge.....so be it. That is entirely your problem.

All those "I AM" statements from Jesus suggesting that he is claiming to be God, are bogus because God never said his name was "I AM".
He said "I am Jesus".

For heaven's sake man...do some research...its all there in plain sight....even from Christendom's own resources.
Get out your shovel and dig for yourself....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jane, I want to apologize for my misunderstanding of what you were saying in this post #749 I'm sorry.

Love, Walter

How did you misunderstand Walter?

 

[Wrangler]

The point is He spoke about Himself as I AM in John 8:58 because that is who He is.

We all are who we are. Using capitalization does not change the fact that ‘I am’ or ‘I AM’ only refers to a general state of being (exist) and not to a particular being as you want to read into the text. That’s Eisegesis and perhaps the ultimate form of it.

I already used multiple examples demonstrating I am statements that do not mean one is claiming to be a deity. Just because one, like Paul claiming ‘I am the chief sinner’, is using an I am statement, he is not by its use claiming to be a particular existent.

John 8:54 ‘If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing.’ Yet, you contradict Jesus, asserting he is claiming all glory by reading into his words to mean he is glorifying himself in the highest terms possible. Why are you contradicting Jesus?

 

[Wrangler]

Yes the people who missed their messiah and deny him still today are the people we should look to for the best translation of the Old Testament.

Poisoning The Well.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Note how Jesus is universally referred to in Scripture as being of God - son, servant, lamb, word.

Jesus only says what his God tells him to say and how to say it. Jesus only does the Will of his God. Jesus obedience to our God is for us to model.

And what you just said here is absolute truth!

And yet people are so rabid on the topic with only vague and ambiguous passages to work from.

It’s unbelievable!

 

[RLT63]

Poisoning The Well.

You don’t think they have bias?

 

[WalterandDebbie]

How did you misunderstand Walter?

I was thinking that when Jesus was speaking about Himself in John 8:58 at the end of His statement He mentioned who He is by saying to them Before Abraham was, I am.

But before I was thinking when you mentioned in post 749: This makes the connection with John 8:58 somewhat bogus, since Jesus never said "I AM" I thought that the "I am" was omitted, but I was mistaken.

And another thing you mentioned about: God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

We/me and my wife were trying to remember, when God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be), thank you.

Love, Walter

 

[RLT63]

Let's go to Strongs again....Ex 3:14-15....

"And God H430 said H559 to Moses H4872, “[fn]I AM H1961 WHO H834 [fn]I AM H1961”; and He said H559, “This H3541 is H3541 what H3541 you shall say H559 to the sons H1121 of Israel H3478: ‘[fn]I AM H1961 has sent H7971 me to you.’”

God H430 furthermore H5750 said H559 to Moses H4872, “This H3541 is H3541 what H3541 you shall say H559 to the sons H1121 of Israel H3478: ‘The LORD H3068, the God H430 of your fathers H1, the God H430 of Abraham H85, the God H430 of Isaac H3327, and the God H430 of Jacob H3290, has sent H7971 me to you.’ This H2088 is My name H8034 forever H5769, and this H2088 is the [fn]name H2143 for [fn]all H1755 generations H1755 to use to call H2143 upon H2143 Me."

The footnote attached to "I AM" reads that this expression in Hebrew is "Related to the name of God, YHWH, rendered LORD, which is derived from the verb HAYAH, to be" which fits in with the Tanakh's rendering of "I will be what I will be"...it never meant "I Am" in the first place.

The Jews already knew who God was because Moses had been sent to liberate them from slavery in Egypt. They saw his miracles and knew that he existed.....what they were yet to experience was his response to their unfaithful conduct and disobedience. He would BE whatever he needed to BE in order for his will and purpose to be accomplished. This is what his name means....and calling on this name alone will mean salvation.

Acts 2:21.....
"And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved".....which "Lord" is this?
Peter was quoting Joel 2:32, which in the Takakh reads....

And it shall come to pass that whoever shall call in the name of the Lord shall be delivered, for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be a deliverance, as the Lord said, and among the survivors whom the Lord invites.

הוְהָיָ֗ה כֹּ֧ל אֲשֶׁר־יִקְרָ֛א בְּשֵׁ֥ם יְהֹוָ֖ה יִמָּלֵ֑ט כִּ֠י בְּהַר־צִיּ֨וֹן וּבִירֽוּשָׁלִַ֜ם תִּֽהְיֶ֣ה פְלֵיטָ֗ה כַּֽאֲשֶׁר֙ אָמַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֔ה וּבַ֨שְּׂרִידִ֔ים אֲשֶׁ֥ר יְהֹוָ֖ה קֹרֵֽא:

What is the name of this "Lord" ? It is "יְהֹוָ֖ה" (Yahweh)...not Jesus.
If you call on the name of the wrong "God", then "the only true God" will not recognize you. (John 17:3)

You swallow whatever you are told by "the church" system, even when it is shown to you that it is wrong, you still wont budge.....so be it. That is entirely your problem.

All those "I AM" statements from Jesus suggesting that he is claiming to be God, are bogus because God never said his name was "I AM".
He said "I am Jesus".

For heaven's sake man...do some research...its all there in plain sight....even from Christendom's own resources.
Get out your shovel and dig for yourself....

Which is more likely -A. The scholars who translated almost every version of the Bible are wrong and @Aunty Jane is right or B. @Aunty Jane is wrong? No offense @Aunty Jane but I have a hard time believing that all the scholars and editors of almost every Bible version conspired to have God say his name was I Am so that it would match John 8:58 and I have a hard time believing there was a conspiracy to keep God’s name out of the Bible.

 

[Wrangler]

And what you just said here is absolute truth!

And yet people are so rabid on the topic with only vague and ambiguous passages to work from.

It’s unbelievable!

While simultaneously ignoring completely 2 categories of Scripture far more reliable than vague and ambiguous passages:

1. Explicit verses going against the doctrine, e.g., For us, there is one God the Father.
2. Implied verses that go against their doctrine, e.g., all those that juxtapose Jesus from his God, like John 3:16.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I was thinking that when Jesus was speaking about Himself in John 8:58 at the end of His statement He mentioned who He is by saying to them Before Abraham was, I am.

Walter, I went to Strongs, as I always do, to check the translation and how the original word was used in other verses. This is always very revealing to me because bias will often override the true meaning of a word or words, and a mistranslation will be accepted as truth, when it never was. If that happened before we were born and we were indoctrinated from birth....the lies will appear to be truth....the deceiver will have accomplished his agenda.

“I am” can be translated as “I was” or “have been”. If you read the account, when asked a question about his age, Jesus responded that he was in existence before Abraham was even born.

But before I was thinking when you mentioned in post 749: This makes the connection with John 8:58 somewhat bogus, since Jesus never said "I AM" I thought that the "I am" was omitted, but I was mistaken.

Jesus’ answer to the Jews was that, because he came down from heaven, he existed there with his Father and therefore could respond that he was in existence before Abraham was born. He wasn’t admitting to being God because “I Am” in Hebrew, was never the meaning of God’s name in the first place.

And another thing you mentioned about: God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

We/me and my wife were trying to remember, when God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be), thank you.

This was just before Moses was sent to liberate the Israelites from slavery in Egypt. God’s promise to Abraham, was that a particular person in his lineage would be the one to bring blessings to all mankind, not just to the Hebrews.
In Exodus 3:9-10, 13 Jehovah said to Moses....
“Now look! The outcry of the people of Israel has reached me, and I have seen also the harsh way that the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 Now come, I will send you to Pharʹaoh, and you will bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt.”.......”But Moses said to the true God: “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What should I say to them?”

As Abraham’s offspring, these people already knew who their God was, as they always kept themselves separate from the Egyptians ever since Joseph rescued his family from a raging famine. Joseph was the son of Jacob who was sold into slavery by his jealous brothers, but he realised later that God had sent him ahead to preserve his family. Jacob, who was renamed “Israel” and his family were worshippers of Jehovah, and his descendants were the ones through whom the promised seed would come.

When Pharaoh refused to set Israel free, God brought the 10 plagues to show Pharaoh who the true God was....each plague was designed to humiliate one of Egypt’s many gods....the last “god” to feel that humiliation was Pharaoh himself who was also considered a god.

So Jehovah (Yahweh) was showing his people what his name meant.....not just that he was (or is) but what he would “be” or “become” in order to achieve his purpose in connection with them. Bible history tells us how difficult that was....keeping his people separate from the surrounding nations....forbidding certain practices that were common in other nations...even in their diet, Israel stood out as different to all the rest.
They were the only ones to be governed by the true God, and to be accountable for keeping his laws, by birth. Yet to Abraham, God said that “all the nations” would receive the blessings that his seed would bring about. So Israel had a role in God’s purpose, but they were constantly disobeying God’s commands. When the Messiah finally arrived, Jehovah gave his people first option to become participants or parties to the “new covenant” that was prophesied through Jeremiah. (Jeremiah 32:31-33) But after the corrupt religious leaders had him executed, God abandoned them as the serial covenant breakers they had always proven to be....”the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) would replace them......a new spiritual “Israel” who would be faithful to their God in all things.

As I have said many times, the Bible is one story, with one author, so humans who mess with its message, by deliberately mistranslating its words, (especially about who God is, and what role his son plays in the outworking of his purpose) will answer for the number of lost lives that their lies will cause. People are basically lazy, so they will accept what is told to them, without doing their own homework. It’s vital that we do.

The “weeds” of Jesus’ parable are counterfeit “Christians” planted by the devil......but the “wheat” are still in existence, growing in the world......but they are a hated minority. (Matt 7:13-14; John 15:18-21)

What are your thoughts...?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Which is more likely -A. The scholars who translated almost every version of the Bible are wrong and @Aunty Jane is right or B. @Aunty Jane is wrong? No offense @Aunty Jane but I have a hard time believing that all the scholars and editors of almost every Bible version conspired to have God say his name was I Am so that it would match John 8:58 and I have a hard time believing there was a conspiracy to keep God’s name out of the Bible.

It’s your choice to believe as you wish.....but the Bible itself teaches us not to underestimate our enemy.

If the “weeds” of Jesus parable were manifesting in the first century, and the apostles were acting as a restraint against a foretold apostasy back then, we today have been sold a very ancient ‘bill of goods’. We are the victims of that apostasy. Everything we have been taught from the religious system that became thoroughly corrupted in the early centuries, are lies that are widely accepted as truth.

Here are our study notes on 2 Thessalonians.....
Study Notes

Only in this “time of the end” was God going to “cleanse, purify and refine” a people and give them insight and understanding regarding the real truth. (Daniel 12:4, 13-14) But they would be rejected by the majority because of deviating from what was accepted as scriptural truth.....their truth would be ridiculed as lies.

Think back to the first century and ask why the people rejected Jesus and persecuted his disciples....they claimed to worship the same God, but because Jesus did not conform to their version of things, he was automatically accused of subverting the nation. But what did Jesus say about them....?

“You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

History is repeating......the majority are again misled as to what is truth......but they won’t believe it for all the same reasons.

Step back and see what God is seeing.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Walter, I went to Strongs, as I always do, to check the translation and how the original word was used in other verses. This is always very revealing to me because bias will often override the true meaning of a word or words, and a mistranslation will be accepted as truth, when it never was. If that happened before we were born and we were indoctrinated from birth....the lies will appear to be truth....the deceiver will have accomplished his agenda.

“I am” can be translated as “I was” or “have been”. If you read the account, when asked a question about his age, Jesus responded that he was in existed before Abraham was even born.

Jesus’ answer to the Jews was that, because he came down from heaven, he existed there with his Father and therefore could respond that he was in existence before Abraham was born. He wasn’t admitting to being God because “I Am” in Hebrew, was never the meaning of God’s name in the first place.

This was just before Moses was sent to liberate the Israelites from slavery in Egypt. God’s promise to Abraham, was that a particular person in his lineage would be the one to bring blessings to all mankind, not just to the Hebrews.
In Exodus 3:9-10, 13 Jehovah said to Moses....
“Now look! The outcry of the people of Israel has reached me, and I have seen also the harsh way that the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 Now come, I will send you to Pharʹaoh, and you will bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt.”.......”But Moses said to the true God: “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What should I say to them?”

As Abraham’s offspring, these people already knew who their God was, as they always kept themselves separate from the Egyptians ever since Joseph rescued his family from a raging famine. Joseph was the son of Jacob who was sold into slavery by his jealous brothers, but he realised later that God had sent him ahead to preserve his family. Jacob, who was renamed “Israel” and his family were worshippers of Jehovah, and his descendants were the ones through whom the promised seed would come.

When Pharaoh refused to set Israel free, God brought the 10 plagues to show Pharaoh who the true God was....each plague was designed to humiliate one of Egypt’s many gods....the last “god” to feel that humiliation was Pharaoh himself who was also considered a god.

So Jehovah (Yahweh) was showing his people what his name meant.....not just that he was (or is) but what he would “be” or “become” in order to achieve his purpose in connection with them. Bible history tells us how difficult that was....keeping his people separate from the surrounding nations....forbidding certain practices that were common in other nations...even in their diet, Israel stood out as different to all the rest.
They were the only ones to be governed by the true God, and to be accountable for keeping his laws, by birth. Yet to Abraham, God said that “all the nations” would receive the blessings that his seed would bring about. So Israel had a role in God’s purpose, but they were constantly disobeying God’s commands. When the Messiah finally arrived, Jehovah gave his people first option to become participants or parties to the “new covenant” that was prophesied through Jeremiah. (Jeremiah 32:31-33) But after the corrupt religious leaders had him executed, God abandoned them as the serial covenant breakers they had always proven to be....”the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) would replace them......a new spiritual “Israel” who would be faithful to their God in all things.

As I have said many times, the Bible is one story, with one author, so humans who mess with its message, by deliberately mistranslating its words, (especially about who God is, and what role his son plays in the outworking of his purpose) will answer for the number of lives that their lies will cause. People are basically lazy so they will accept what is told to them, without doing their own homework. It’s vital that we do.

The “weeds” of Jesus’ parable are counterfeit “Christians” planted by the devil......but the “wheat” are still in existence, growing in the world......but they are a hated minority. (Matt 7:13-14; John 15:18-21)

What are your thoughts...?

Hello Jane, and thank you for sharing.

Love, Walter