RR144
Well-Known Member
With my brethren with whom I meet with Wednesday Nights and Sunday mornings, and with others at conventions held throughout the year.
Yes, we are international.
A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.
- Thread starter Ronald Nolette
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
And if one worships cupid on Valentines day- yes they are guilty of idolatry!
but if one buys Roses and chocolates and a card to honor his wife- there is no idolatry, unless one worships their spouse as a god. C'mon man stop being so shallow and only looking at external things. You go against Yahweh who says He looks upon the heart! And you cannot possible believe to esteem ones spouse is a sin on any day.
You are like all the other JW's on this forum. If one eats a full blown turkey dinner on thanksgiving it is sin. If one gives gifts to others on Dec. 25th it is sin. If one honors their spouse with gifts on Valentines day it is sin.
YOu make the day itself evil and not what a person does from the heart! God is the God of all 365 days! No day is evil in and of itself!
Yes that is completely true (with help from the dad and none months from the mom) but to honor the anniversary of ones birth and celebrate that god brough tone in to the world is not sin.
Remember celebrating a birthday is actually celebrating an anniversary of that day. Are you going to tell me celebrating anniversaries are also sin?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Aunty Jane,
This is a very well thought out post, as so many of your posts are. And I want to thank you for that. I know you take the time to be through in your answers.
There is something about it that I don't agree with.
Because I've been traveling, I doubt I'll be able to get to it until this weekend. But I do hope to respond in detail.
Thanks again!
W
John 4:22 (...) ἡ σωτηρία ἐκ τῶν Ἰουδαίων ἐστίν __ Salvation is out of (originates/begins with) the Jews.
... NOT: "is of the Jews".
Rom. 9:1 I am telling the truth in Christ; I am not lying, as my conscience bears witness with me in holy spirit, 2 that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were separated from the Christ as the cursed one for the sake of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises. 5 To them the forefathers belong, and from them the Christ descended according to the flesh. God, who is over all, be praised forever. Amen.
... NOT: "is of the Jews".
Rom. 9:1 I am telling the truth in Christ; I am not lying, as my conscience bears witness with me in holy spirit, 2 that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were separated from the Christ as the cursed one for the sake of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises. 5 To them the forefathers belong, and from them the Christ descended according to the flesh. God, who is over all, be praised forever. Amen.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Sounds familiar……How do you identify your brotherhood? What do you call yourselves that identifies your brotherhood from a multitude of others?
It is the modern attempt to unite all the "independent Christians" with their thousands of personal interpretations in the same collective.
They say that no one directs them globally, and yet it seems that they organize assemblies for all those included in the wordly (?) collective in an official (?) manner. They claim to have no name as a religion, but call themselves "Bible Students" (isn't that a denomination?).
It seems to me like the epitome of the "to be or not to be", a religious anarchy with pretense of organization. You cannot expect them to respond in the same way, because each of them can interpret the biblical issues in their own way. That is why they cann't define themselves as a real religion.
They say that no one directs them globally, and yet it seems that they organize assemblies for all those included in the wordly (?) collective in an official (?) manner. They claim to have no name as a religion, but call themselves "Bible Students" (isn't that a denomination?).
It seems to me like the epitome of the "to be or not to be", a religious anarchy with pretense of organization. You cannot expect them to respond in the same way, because each of them can interpret the biblical issues in their own way. That is why they cann't define themselves as a real religion.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Do you really want the explanation?
It’s right there in the Greek scriptures from which our English translation is taken. So is the English translation accurate? Or was it appropriated by bias and translated to obscure the truth as Jews understood the nature of the God they worshipped? We have to remember that Jesus was Jewish and so were all of the Bible writers. We cannot dismiss this very important point because Jehovah does not change…..yet Christendom has created a god that neither Jesus, nor any first century Jew would recognize. (Deut 6:4)
Since the Jews had left off from pronouncing the divine name verbally, (yet retaining it in their scripture texts) the Greeks (whose gods all had names) had no way to identify the now nameless God of the Jews, except to use the definite article, “ho theos” meaning literally “THE God”…..we use the same thing when we identify someone with the same name as someone famous…..like Brad Pitt….we would ask…”not “THE” Brad Pitt?
If you look up "theos" ("god" in Greek) you will find that Strongs Concordance gives its primary definition as...
"a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities."....so the word "theos" is not used exclusively for Jehovah in the scriptures....it is used to identify any "gods" under that definition....any divine personage. It does not mean only a deity.
So how can we use the very same scripture as it is presented as a “proof” text in English, to demonstrate what was originally written in Greek?
Look and see....
John 1:1 from the Greek Interlinear....
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."
You can see that little word "ho" means "the", but seeing as how the Greeks had no upper and lower case, the original "theos" (god) was all the same. With no capital to define which was "God" and which was "a god" (literally a divine or mighty one), they used the definite article to identify THE God of the Jews.
Read the Greek again and you will see two "gods" or 'divine' ones are mentioned in that short statement.....but only one of them is "ho theos"....Yahweh" (or Jehovah)......the other is identified as simply "theos"....meaning that the Word (ho logos) was not "ho theos" at all but was "with" "ho theos" "in the beginning".
It was the Word (ho logos) who became flesh, not Jehovah ("ho theos").
Another longer passage also demonstrates that the translators were biased in their rendering, having a manufactured doctrine to support. John 10:30-36....
When Jesus said...."I and the Father are one"....
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” [theos]
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” [theos]’? 35 If He called them gods [theos], to whom the word of God [ho theos] came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’ [ho theos]?
Here it is from the Greek Interlinear....
[31 The ho Jews Ioudaios again palin brought bastazō stones lithos to hina stone lithazō him autos. 32 Jesus Iēsous said apokrinomai to them autos, · ho “ I have shown deiknymi you hymeis many polys noble kalos works ergon from ek the ho Father patēr; for dia which poios one ergon of them autos do you intend to stone lithazō me egō?” 33 The ho Jews Ioudaios answered apokrinomai him autos, “It is not ou for peri a noble kalos work ergon that we intend to stone lithazō you sy but alla for peri blasphemy blasphēmia; · kai it is because hoti you sy, a mere man anthrōpos, are making poieō yourself seautou God theos.” [not "ho theos"] 34 Jesus Iēsous answered apokrinomai them autos, · ho “ Is it eimi not ou written graphō in en · ho your hymeis law nomos, ‘ I egō said legō, you are eimi gods theos’? [not ho theos] 35 If ei the scripture called legō them ekeinos ‘ gods theos’ [not ho theos] to pros whom hos the ho word logos of ho God theos came ginomai— and kai scripture graphē cannot ou dynamai be annulled lyō · ho— 36 do legō you hymeis say legō regarding the one whom hos the ho Father patēr consecrated hagiazō and kai sent apostellō into eis the ho world kosmos, ‘ You are blaspheming blasphēmeō,’ because hoti I said legō, ‘ I am eimi the Son hyios of ho God theos’?" [ho theos]
Look again for that little word "ho" and see what they have done to contaminate the scriptures.....Two different definitions of "theos" are conveyed in that passage where Jesus clearly states that his Father called the judges in Israel "gods" because they had his divine authority......but Jesus says he is "the son of ho theos"....He never claimed to be "God" (capital "G")
Not once in all of scripture is Jesus called "ho theos"....but he is of divine origin in that he was "sent" by his Father from heaven on a mission. (John 17:3; John 3:16) In Acts 4:27 Jesus is called "God's holy servant".
The Greeks conveyed the difference, but the biased English translators did not.
You have been deceived.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
LOL...then why don't you choose your own days to honor those you love? Why celebrate with "the world" of which satan is its ruler? (1 John 5:19)
When the devil told Jesus that world rulership had been "delivered to him and he could give it to whomever he wished" (Luke 4:5-8) what do you suppose that meant as far as him deceiving the world that he controls and influences? Has he told you that borrowing pagan customs and false religious occasions is somehow OK with God? Scripture tells you otherwise...(2 Cor 6:14-18)....yet you still want to justify it. SMH.
What part of "don't touch" spiritually "unclean" beliefs and practices, do you not understand?
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Has godlike qualities--Only capitol G God is calling one the God. Proof= 2 Cor 4:4-John 1:1--the only 2 spots in the NT where the true God is called Ho Theos in the Greek Lexicons and plain Theos to the ones called god small g. The only word in Greek for God or god is Theos--so the true God is called Ho Theos( The God) to show the difference when others are called Theos in the same paragraph. translating works the same at both spots. And we know 2 Cor 4:4 satan is not God, but has god like qualities, so is called plain Theos and the true God Ho Theos, works the same at John 1:1.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
John 4:24 says--the Father--
There is much proof the holy spirit is not a living being but Gods active force. --It has no personal name as do the Father and son. God doesn't share any of the things he shares with the son. It is never seen on a throne as Father and son are. Many super important teachings in the NT only the Father and son are mentioned.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
The commandment says 0 about worshipping it-it says not to have one before your face-means-has nothing whatsoever to do with another false god in any way shape or form.
1 Corinthians 5:12-13
Easy-to-Read Version
12-13 It is not my business to judge those who are not part of the group of believers. God will judge them, but you must judge those who are part of your group. The Scriptures say, “Make the evil person leave your group.
Those of the watchtower are not of us who are historical Christians. Thus, they have no right to judge those who are not part of their sect.
In my culture and family Birthdays are about Honoring and respecting everyone on their birthday.
1 Peter 2:17
17 Show respect for all people. Love your brothers and sisters in God’s family. Respect God, and honor the king.
Proverbs 28:14
People who respect others will be blessed, but stubborn people will have plenty of troubles.
1 Timothy 3:2
An elder must be such a good man that no one can rightly criticize him. He must be faithful to his wife. He must have self-control and be wise. He must be respected by others.
1 Timothy 3:8
In the same way, the men who are chosen to be special servants must have the respect of others.
Acts 15:22
The Letter to the Non-Jewish Believers
The apostles, the elders, and the whole church wanted to send some men with Paul and Barnabas to Antioch. The group decided to choose some of their own men. They chose Judas (also called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were respected by the believers
Proverbs 1:9
What you learn from your parents will bring you honor and respect, like a crown or a gold medal.
Proverbs 12:8
You praise people for their intelligence, but no one respects those who are stupid.
Proverbs 14:19
Good people will defeat those who are evil, and the wicked will be forced to show respect to those who live right.
Proverbs 20:3
People who refuse to argue deserve respect.
Proverbs 20:29
We admire a young man for his strength, but we respect an old man for his gray hair.
Proverbs 22:1
It is better to be respected than to be rich. A good name is worth more than silver or gold.
Proverbs 31:25
She is a strong person, and people respect her. She looks to the future with confidence.
Luke 2:32
He is a light to show your way to the other nations. And he will bring honor to your people Israel.”
Verse 8 was taken out of context by someone:
Matthew 15
Easy-to-Read Version
God’s Law and Human Traditions
15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus. They came from Jerusalem and asked him, 2 “Why do your followers not obey the traditions we have from our great leaders who lived long ago? Your followers don’t wash their hands before they eat!”3 Jesus answered, “And why do you refuse to obey God’s command so that you can follow those traditions you have? 4 God said, ‘You must respect your father and mother.’[a] And God also said, ‘Whoever says anything bad to their father or mother must be killed.’[b] 5 But you teach that a person can say to their father or mother, ‘I have something I could use to help you. But I will not use it for you. I will give it to God.’ 6 You are teaching them not to respect their father. So you are teaching that it is not important to do what God said. You think it is more important to follow those traditions you have. 7 You are hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he spoke for God about you:
8 ‘These people honor me with their words,
but I am not really important to them.
9 Their worship of me is worthless.
The things they teach are only human rules.’”
10 Jesus called the people to him. He said, “Listen and understand what I am saying. 11 It is not what people put in their mouth that makes them wrong.[c] It is what comes out of their mouth that makes them wrong.”
Luke 14:10
“So when someone invites you, go sit in the seat that is not important. Then they will come to you and say, ‘Friend, move up here to this better place!’ What an honor this will be for you in front of all the other guests.
My Jewish culture is about honoring and respecting others. Nothing selfish about that.
Since, I am a leader to thousands, I am respected and honored daily because I put Jesus who is God first.
Philippians 2:3
In whatever you do, don’t let selfishness or pride be your guide. Be humble, and honor others more than yourselves.
RR144
Well-Known Member
As I said, we are international. We have several publishing houses, we publish various journals and newsletters, countless booklets, books, and tracts, software, DVDs, CDs. We have dozens of websites, we have radio and TV programs. Every ecclesias (congregation) goes by the name of where they meet. But we all use one term to describe ourselves: BIBLE STUDENTS. So I currently meet with the Columbus Indiana Bible Students.
Aunty Jane, you do a good job of exposing youself as a layman masquerading as an educated intellectual.
I make no such claims.
John 20:28,
- and Thomas answered and said to Jesus, My Lord and my ho theos (The God)
Jesus said to him, Thomas because you have seen Me, you have believed(faith) Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
Jesus equates mans true faith in Jesus as Thomas' faith. What kind of faith did Thomas have in
Jesus? That He was ho theos!!! Jehovah!!!
Since I am a saved born again christian, I am a son of God.
Romans 8:14,
- For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God
Galatians 3:26,
- for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus
Also read, Gal. 4:6; Romans 8:16; Revelation 21:7
Now when Jesus said He is the Son of God the Jews said it was blasphemy, John 10:33-34,
- The Jews answered Jesus saying for a good work we do not stone You but for blasphemy and because You being a Man make Yourself God
Why would they be so upset, when God Himself referred to them as the sons of Godl
Deuteronomy 14:1,
- You are the children of the Lord your God
The Jews knew that Jesus was a child of God for He was Jewish!
If the phrase Jesus said of Himself that He was the Son of God did not mean He was God in the flesh,
1Timothy 3:16,
- God was manifested in the flesh...
Then why did the Jews who already believed they were sons of God want to murder Jesus for saying this about Himself?
Job 1:6
- now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan also came among them.
John 19:7,
- The Jews answered him, we have a law and according to our law Jesus ought to die because He made Himself the Son of God
therefore when Pilate heard that saying he was the more afraid.
Why does that saying The Son of God put fear into a powerful man like Pilate if it does not mean Jesus is God?
Pilate already knew the Jews thought of themselves as Gods children.
The reason is the most obvious, because Pilate knew Jesus had claimed to be more than a jew but The God of the jews!!!!!
PAY ATTENTION AND YOU MIGHT LEARN YOUR WAY OUT OF THE BRAIN WASHING YOU HAVE RECEIVED BY THE WATCH TOWER SOCIETY.
Now, as irrefutable proof Pilate understood the meaning of "The Son of God"
Look what Pilate commanded to be written and put on Jesus' cross!
John 19:19,
- Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross, and the writing was:
JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS
Matthew 21:4-5,
- All this might be done that it might be fullfilled which was spoken by the prophet saying:
Tell the daughter of Zion, Behold your King is coming to you, lowly and sitting on a donkey,
a colt, the fowl of a donkey.
Matthew 21:10,
- and when Jesus had come into Jerusalem all the city was moved, saying, "who is this"
Now hear the children praise Jesus,
Matthew 21:15
- and the children crying out in the temple and saying, Hosanna to the son of David
Now listen to what Jesus says about these children,
Matthew 21:16,
- and said to Him, Do you hear what these are saying?
And Jesus said to them, Yes, have you never read, Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have perfected praise.
If you are a good Bible student you will know Jesus is quoting from the old testament,
here,
Psalm 8:1-2,
O Lord(Jehovah) our Lord(Jehovah)
How excellent is Your name in all the earth, who have set your glory above the heavens
out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants you have perfected praise
David wrote that Psalm. You know who he was speaking of?
Psalm 8 is David speaking of His God Jehovah!
Dont miss this, Jesus receives the praises of little children and then explains it by quoting a Psalm where children are praising God!!!
I make no such claims.
Thomas said Jesus was ho theos and Jesus agreed!
John 20:28,
- and Thomas answered and said to Jesus, My Lord and my ho theos (The God)
Jesus said to him, Thomas because you have seen Me, you have believed(faith) Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
Jesus equates mans true faith in Jesus as Thomas' faith. What kind of faith did Thomas have in
Jesus? That He was ho theos!!! Jehovah!!!
Since I am a saved born again christian, I am a son of God.
Romans 8:14,
- For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God
Galatians 3:26,
- for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus
Also read, Gal. 4:6; Romans 8:16; Revelation 21:7
Now when Jesus said He is the Son of God the Jews said it was blasphemy, John 10:33-34,
- The Jews answered Jesus saying for a good work we do not stone You but for blasphemy and because You being a Man make Yourself God
Why would they be so upset, when God Himself referred to them as the sons of Godl
Deuteronomy 14:1,
- You are the children of the Lord your God
The Jews knew that Jesus was a child of God for He was Jewish!
If the phrase Jesus said of Himself that He was the Son of God did not mean He was God in the flesh,
1Timothy 3:16,
- God was manifested in the flesh...
Then why did the Jews who already believed they were sons of God want to murder Jesus for saying this about Himself?
Job 1:6
- now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan also came among them.
John 19:7,
- The Jews answered him, we have a law and according to our law Jesus ought to die because He made Himself the Son of God
therefore when Pilate heard that saying he was the more afraid.
Why does that saying The Son of God put fear into a powerful man like Pilate if it does not mean Jesus is God?
Pilate already knew the Jews thought of themselves as Gods children.
The reason is the most obvious, because Pilate knew Jesus had claimed to be more than a jew but The God of the jews!!!!!
PAY ATTENTION AND YOU MIGHT LEARN YOUR WAY OUT OF THE BRAIN WASHING YOU HAVE RECEIVED BY THE WATCH TOWER SOCIETY.
Now, as irrefutable proof Pilate understood the meaning of "The Son of God"
Look what Pilate commanded to be written and put on Jesus' cross!
John 19:19,
- Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross, and the writing was:
JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS
Matthew 21:4-5,
- All this might be done that it might be fullfilled which was spoken by the prophet saying:
Tell the daughter of Zion, Behold your King is coming to you, lowly and sitting on a donkey,
a colt, the fowl of a donkey.
Matthew 21:10,
- and when Jesus had come into Jerusalem all the city was moved, saying, "who is this"
Now hear the children praise Jesus,
Matthew 21:15
- and the children crying out in the temple and saying, Hosanna to the son of David
Now listen to what Jesus says about these children,
Matthew 21:16,
- and said to Him, Do you hear what these are saying?
And Jesus said to them, Yes, have you never read, Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have perfected praise.
If you are a good Bible student you will know Jesus is quoting from the old testament,
here,
Psalm 8:1-2,
O Lord(Jehovah) our Lord(Jehovah)
How excellent is Your name in all the earth, who have set your glory above the heavens
out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants you have perfected praise
David wrote that Psalm. You know who he was speaking of?
Psalm 8 is David speaking of His God Jehovah!
Dont miss this, Jesus receives the praises of little children and then explains it by quoting a Psalm where children are praising God!!!
Last edited:
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Ah, I thought the similarities were not coincidental......we have similar roots. It seems that many who followed Russell lost sight of the importance of progressive understanding of the truth, to the importance of the man. We do not focus on the men who bring us the truth because they are exactly like the apostles were in the first century...very much flawed humans like we are, doing their best to bring us our "food at the proper time". (Matt 24:45) They don't claim to be inspired nor to be prophets; they are shepherds who are tending God's flock and they are doing so to the best of their imperfect ability.
Jesus said that he would direct the work that he assigned to all of his disciples.....the great commission (Matt 28:19-20) has been faithfully carried out now for over a hundred years and no matter how long it takes to reach "the end", we will keep right on preaching, just as we have always done. (Matt 24:14) When was the last time a Bible Student called on me to bring me the good news of the Kingdom....? (Acts 20:20)
The answer is......never. Its one thing to talk the talk....but another thing entirely to walk the walk....those who are "doing the will of the Father"? (Matt :21-23)
Who is your "faithful and discreet slave"?
Similar threads
