A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[Titus]

Yes believe he is the one sent forth from God=the Messiah-my king.
However, he is not God, he is Gods son, he has a mortal mother. God always was and always will be. Jesus has a God just like we do-John 20:17, Rev 3:12
The righteous know Gods truth-John 4:22-24--God will not accept any less. And there is no excuse. Dan 12:4 assures truth became abundant here in these last days. Thus not the truths taught through the centuries because some of them were hidden, yet still in the bible and taught on in error. Thus corrections had to be made here in these last days. All of creation saw who made corrections.

Here you go again posting something I was not discussing. Trying to get away from birthdays aren't you.

Note: your post here has been proven false by the word of God. Jesus is divine.
Anyone here can go to the Debate forums and look for the title:

Christ Jesus is God: BIBLICAL PROOF, JUST FOLLOW THE ROCK!

 

[ButterflyJones]

When I read the title of this thread I knew no good could come of it.
It's not an invitation to discuss what the JW's believe.

It's an invitation to attack one another, the JW's and Christians alike. Each defending their faith by arguing the other is wrong.

What's the good of that?

 

[Brakelite]

we do not observe the Sabbath

Exactly. And you follow and obey the Roman idea of transferring the solemnity of the 7th day of the week to the first. And you use the Protestant presumption of having authority to make every day equal in order to justify making Sunday above them. Totally and completely inconsistent and illogical. And none of it with any sanction from the scriptures. Whatever scriptures you do use, do not say what you want them to say. What you are looking for is a "this sayeth the Lord" which removes or transfers the holiness and sacredness of the Sabbath to another day. You will not find such a text. No-one ever has despite desperate attempts to do so. At least the Roman church is honest. They admit there's no scriptural justification, but claim to have spiritual authority over God's own commandments. So in essence, you and the rest of protestantism are all in the same boat. You obey Rome rather than God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Exactly. And you follow and obey the Roman idea of transferring the solemnity of the 7th day of the week to the first.

I'm sorry but we do not. Sunday is no more holy to us than any other day of the week that are named after false gods.

And you use the Protestant presumption of having authority to make every day equal in order to justify making Sunday above them. Totally and completely inconsistent and illogical. And none of it with any sanction from the scriptures.

Do you recall Jesus saying that he is "Lord of the Sabbath"?
Mark 2:27-28 Jesus said...
"The sabbath came into existence for the sake of man, and not man for the sake of the sabbath; hence the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath.’”
So what does he mean by that?

There is another kind of Sabbath which is much more than the Sabbath observed by the Jews. The original observances were only a "shadow" of much greater things.
Paul described it this way when it was noticed that many of the Christians were no longer observing Jewish religious practice.
"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col 2:16-17)

When detailing the requirements or "necessary things" for all Christians (Jewish and Gentile) to observe in their worship, at Acts 15:28-29 they were told...
"For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.”

No Sabbath was mentioned among the "requirements".

Jesus knew that Jehovah had instituted the Sabbath as a sign between God and Israel, and that it was meant to bring them relief from their labors. Jesus also was aware that his own death would provide the basis for setting aside the Mosaic Law as having found its fulfillment in him. He appreciated that the Law, with its sabbath requirement, provided “a shadow of the good things to come.”
In connection with those “good things” there is a “sabbath” of which he is to be Lord....his thousand year reign.

Whatever scriptures you do use, do not say what you want them to say. What you are looking for is a "this sayeth the Lord" which removes or transfers the holiness and sacredness of the Sabbath to another day. You will not find such a text.

It was a shadow of greater things to come.....you are looking at the old law which was fulfilled in Christ...he spoke of a greater Sabbath rest where he will heal mankind and the world of all the damage that selfish humans have done to themselves and the planet.
Rom 10:4...
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Christ is the end of the Law.....there is no Sabbath Day any more....there is a much grander Sabbath under the watchful eyes of the "Lord of the Sabbath".

No-one ever has despite desperate attempts to do so. At least the Roman church is honest. They admit there's no scriptural justification, but claim to have spiritual authority over God's own commandments. So in essence, you and the rest of protestantism are all in the same boat. You obey Rome rather than God.

No sorry...you are dead wrong....for all the reasons explained...
We can worship our God on any or all days of the week.....do you have a problem with that? No one day is holier than the others...we are no longer under the Mosaic Law.

 

[Aunty Jane]

When I read the title of this thread I knew no good could come of it.
It's not an invitation to discuss what the JW's believe.

It's an invitation to attack one another, the JW's and Christians alike. Each defending their faith by arguing the other is wrong.

What's the good of that?

It separates the sheep from the goats....just as Jesus did when he exposed the Pharisees for the things they taught that were out of harmony with the scriptures they purported to teach.

What did Jesus say about the religious leaders of his day.....?
“You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

We are obligated to tell the truth.....regardless of what others think about it.
If our worship was in vain, wouldn’t we want to know about it?

 

[Wrangler]

@Wrangler, it is apparent to me that you are missing the point in all these things you raise.

Love (genuine agape, whether good deeds or giving gifts) can be expressed every day, not just on the days a calendar says you must buy someone a present.

No one is denying that one can express love any or every day. No one is claiming just these days. It's AND. And also express love on special days on the calendar that mark milestones in a persons life. And it is NOT a commercial object; it is living a joyous and celebratory life!

There is simply nothing wrong with it. And it is part of the culture from which I come. You are the one missing the point; there is nothing wrong with it. It's just not a requirement for someone who follows Christ to abandon their cultural heritage.

And such cultural appropriation, Christianizing Pagan events is partly what made Christianity thrive over the centuries.

Beyond any doctrine JW's may have, this staunch opposition to joyfully celebrating life and love of others is a chief indicator, a red flag of what your organization promotes, in stark contrast to Scripture (be all things to all people) and to Christ himself (John 10:10 I came to give life with joy and abundance.) There does not seem to be a lot of joy in JW land. Just drudgery. Lacking such fruit of the Spirit, we can know you are not of the body. Nearly every post exudes your intellectualizing, head knowledge void of the fruit of the Spirit; namely joy.

I feel bad for the JW's and former JW's I know.

 

[ElieG12]

The world can celebrate whatever it wants. We do not judge the world, nor do we want them to stop celebrating what they want...

Should the world tell us Jehovah's Witnesses what we should celebrate, and judge us if we don't?

Should we do what the world wants us to do?

John 15:18 If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you.

 

[Wrangler]

Who said wedding Anniversaries were pagan?

No one. You objected to birthday's on the grounds that they were selfish and promoted a lack of humility. Now, you are pivoting from Weddings not also being selfish and promoting a lack of humility to being non-Pagan.

This tells me the whole criticism of birthday's based on making you cringe due to it being selfish and promoting a lack of humility is just slander.

Your hateful opposition to love others is palpable.

You got it all backwards. Generally speaking, occasions are for a personal milestone a loved one has reached. Each person has these special occasions - including birthdays.

Most people consider a wedding to also be that persons special day. How is that not lacking humility since the couple getting married organize the day for their benefit. Why is that okay in JW land?

Most people do not organize their own birthdays. Rather it is organized by the loved ones for the person they love.

We have no problem with wedding anniversaries because all of Jehovah’s important occasions were anniversaries....yearly commemorations of special events, but NONE of them were borrowed from paganism. They were events specific to Himself and Israel.
Weddings are God’s arrangement and a yearly remembrance breaks no law of Jehovah. All the others do....every one of them was borrowed from a satanic source, dressed up to look respectable, and never given back.

Two obvious points.

1. Key word: "Were," meaning past tense. You keep getting stuck on a works based doctrine of the Old Covenant. Your writings pretend like the Jesus of ministry never happened, the New Covenant is not a thing and we are still required to follow the law.

2. Paganism <> Satanic. They are not synonyms. And we all know you are very nuanced so there is no reason to equate them.

 

[Keiw]

Here you go again posting something I was not discussing. Trying to get away from birthdays aren't you.

Note: your post here has been proven false by the word of God. Jesus is divine.
Anyone here can go to the Debate forums and look for the title:

Christ Jesus is God: BIBLICAL PROOF, JUST FOLLOW THE ROCK!

I already showed whats behind birthdays. Then you must teach God has a God--John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- You are deceived by the capitol G God in your last line at John 1:1--its not in the Greek lexicons like that. You best LOOK.

 

[Titus]

No one. You objected to birthday's on the grounds that they were selfish and promoted a lack of humility. Now, you are pivoting from Weddings not also being selfish and promoting a lack of humility to being non-Pagan.

This tells me the whole criticism of birthday's based on making you cringe due to it being selfish and promoting a lack of humility is just slander

It exposes their inconsistencies. It proves they do not use logical arguments.
They cannot be consistent because their belief on birthdays is unbiblical. They try to apply scripture to a secular celebration where the scriptures are silent. Falsely equating a secular celebration(birthday) with a religious celebration that is supposedly pagan in origin.
So they must contradict themselves by saying weddings are not also selfish because weddings are Biblical.

Both weddings and birthdays celebrate people. Thus the hypocrisy to celebrate people marrying but condemning people celebrating their birth.

 

[Titus]

I already showed whats behind birthdays

My birth is what is "behind" mine.

Then you must teach God has a God--John 20:17, Rev 3:12

No, that is unsound error

- You are deceived by the capitol G God in your last line at John 1:1--its not in the Greek lexicons like that. You best LOOK

Theon Theos
Not one credible Greek scholar denies Jesus' deity.
That should be a red flag for JW's
It is HUGE evidence against your private interpretation of the scriptures.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I wonder how you, and most others on this thread, can challenge a people for refusing to honor a day not sanctioned in scripture, yet turn a blind eye to your own stubbornness in denying the 4th commandment and upholding Sunday as sacred. The same goes for the JWs, who strain at gnats by focusing on Christmas day but honor Sunday.

I take it you must be an SDA. Well as it is iwritten in Hebrews we have entered into Sabbasth rest.

and I honor God every day and consider all 7 days sacred untro teh Lord! but I would remoind you of two things:

Romans 14

King James Version

​

14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

If you wish to set Saturday aside as a sacred day- that is you right and privilege in the Lord. If I wish to hold all days sacred, that is my right and privilege! do not judge others and sin a grievous sin.

also the sabbath was a covenant between god and Israel alone! YOu will not find a command anywhere for the church( especially the gentile wing in the first century) to keep Sabbath.

Exodus 31:12-17

King James Version

​

12 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Now I believe Jewish Christians should still observe the Sabbath for they are still the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!

 

[Wrangler]

Both weddings and birthdays celebrate people. Thus the hypocrisy to celebrate people marrying but condemning people celebrating their birth.

Indeed. She also mentioned telling someone they can get them something for Mother's Day. My wife did that this weekend. Being my wife, she is not my mother. Being my 2nd wife, she is not the mother of my child. Yet, I take joy in using the occassion to celebrate her being a mother.

This line of discussion truly is JW opposition to celebrating and using a milestone in someone's life to add to the joy in our collective lives by showing our love in this culturally appropriated way.

On Moody radio, they talked about TGIF, which shows our nature is to celebrate, to look forward to a joyous time. Of all the hills to die on, I find this (opposition to birthdays, etc) most peculiar.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Love comes from the heart--holidays are set by a calender date-- a big difference of what love is. Your celebrations are by man made rules and regulations.

Now you are straining at gnats in desperation! My love comes from the heart! and if I choose to give my wife a box of chocolates or roses or take her out to dinner on Valentines day, that is my right and privilege according to Gods Word in romans 14.

And there are no man made rules and regulations covering all these celebrations that should be out of love! Stop trying to be like A Pharisee of old!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus accepted no glory from men-John 5:41-44-- he directed all glory to the Father.
Does a sinner deserve to be celebrated?

Wow you really are hornswoggled by the JW Assoc. aren't you? so do you not give any honor to anybody at any time because all are sinners? I hope you never give honor to your wife or xchildren or fellow JW's because they are all sinnewrs and you should give all the glory to God! Or are you just being a hypocrite not realizing the full extent of your comment?

 

[Titus]

1Timothy 3:16

Then you must teach God has a God--John 20:17,

John 20:17,
- Jesus said to her, Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father and to My God and your God.

Jesus was 100% man and 100% God,

Jesus is speaking from His physical flesh as a man, and to My God as showing His likeness to
His physical self being lower than the Father,
Hebrews 2:9,
- but we see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels(because of His taking on the flesh of a man) for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God might taste death for everyone.

Jesus is not teaching He has a God, there is no other God but Yahweh.

1Timothy 3:16,
- and without CONTROVERSY great is the mystery of godliness
God was manifested in the flesh
Justified in the Spirit
Seen by angels
Preached among gentiles
Believed on in the world
Received up in glory

 

[Titus]

She also mentioned telling someone they can get them something for Mother's Day

They dont practise what they preach

 

[ElieG12]

I wonder if the "Christians" who are critics of the Witnesses have some interesting Biblical topic to study...

They have devoted nearly 900 posts in this subforum to why Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate birthdays, as if that's the most important thing they should be paying attention to. There are many biblical topics that if not understood correctly could put your eternal life at risk, like this one Jesus talked about:

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

 

[Keiw]

My birth is what is "behind" mine.

No, that is unsound error


Theon Theos
Not one credible Greek scholar denies Jesus' deity.
That should be a red flag for JW's
It is HUGE evidence against your private interpretation of the scriptures.

In 1822 a Greek scholar ( A. Kneeland) translated the NT from the Lexicons, comparing Greek to English side by side-to prove to the world-- a god is correct. 19 other translations did it correct.
Bias Greek scholars say the opposite. He was unbias.

 

[Keiw]

Now you are straining at gnats in desperation! My love comes from the heart! and if I choose to give my wife a box of chocolates or roses or take her out to dinner on Valentines day, that is my right and privilege according to Gods Word in romans 14.

And there are no man made rules and regulations covering all these celebrations that should be out of love! Stop trying to be like A Pharisee of old!

A real life false god included in valentines day=cupid. Worshipped for centuries by pagan religion. Gods #1 commandment= Thou shalt not have any other gods before your face.