How is it possible for you to agree with all of John Calvin's 5 points and not be a calvinist?
Do you believe Calvin was not teaching the truth?
A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.
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Do you believe Calvin was not teaching the truth?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
The JW victim is still shunned by their family. These 2 articles support that reality.
the elders may contact you to confirm your intention. Once confirmed an announcement will be made, "So-and-so is not one of Jehovah's Witnesses." This announcement carries an implied command to faithful members to begin shunning you, not even saying "hello" if they see you.
How to Leave Jehovah's Witnesses: 4 Steps (with Pictures)
Jehovah's Witnesses do not provide a dignified resignation process for members who wish to leave. Issues such as shunning and adjusting to normal life outside the faith can prove challenging to those wishing to leave. This article provides...www.wikihow.com
Abstract
What Happens to Those Who Exit Jehovah’s Witnesses: An Investigation of the Impact of Shunning
Shunning and ostracism have severe impacts on individuals’ psychological and social well-being. Members of Jehovah’s Witnesses are subject to shunning when they do not comply with the stated doctrine or belief system. To investigate the ...www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
What Happens to Those Who Exit Jehovah’s Witnesses: An Investigation of the Impact of ShunningShunning and ostracism have severe impacts on individuals’ psychological and social well-being. Members of Jehovah’s Witnesses are subject to shunning when they do not comply with the stated doctrine or belief system. To investigate the effects of shunning, interviews with 10 former Jehovah’s Witnesses, ranging in age from 20 to 44 years old, were conducted; six male, six White, one Native American, one Black, and two Latinx. Transcripts were analyzed with interpretative phenomenological analysis for narrative themes pertaining to their life after exclusion from their former faith using the context of Jehovah’s Witnesses culture. Results suggest shunning has a long-term, detrimental effect on mental health, job possibilities, and life satisfaction. Feelings of loneliness, loss of control, and worthlessness are also common after leaving. The culture of informing on other members inside the Jehovah’s Witnesses also leads to a continued sense of distrust and suspicion long after leaving.Conclusion ExcerptThe combination of the threat of Armageddon, the policy of shunning those who disobey Watch Tower policy ... Given the similarities between the outcomes of shunning, combined with the reported patriarchal nature of the group and the vulnerability of those who leave a high control religion, former JW populations fit the profile for familicide perpetrators and may be at high risk for suicide. The seriousness of these outcomes requires more in-depth qualitative, and quantitative analyses to further understand the implications of leaving a high control organization.
Ignoring the harmful data of JW policies, as you said "justification can lead us down a very dark path." You just don't see how the JW path is dark - even when it is presented to you.
Another example of such rigidness of word usage (requiring lengthy rationalizations). The point, @Aunty Jane, is NOT what word he called the process! The point, as the 2 articles I provided prove, is that the outcome of being shunned by his family is the same!!!
Again, we are not talking about the congregation but ongoing shunning of a family member.
Sad reliance on wordiness to cover up the truth.
No it's not. Again, we are not talking about the congregation but ongoing shunning of a family member.
I submit there is a difference between "anyone called a brother" (in Christ) from an actual biological family member.
Again, we are not talking about the congregation but ongoing shunning of a family member.
You are falsely equating one not remaining in Christ with not remaining in the JW congregation.
Again, you are falsely equating one not remaining in Christ with not remaining in the JW congregation.
Not sometimes! The 2 articles I provided + the experiences of my SIL family show it is the price one typically pays with formerly being a part of the JW denomination.
The high controlling nature of the JW denomination gives cult a bad name.
What a nasty, graceless sentiment.
Jesus came, not the JW denomination came to cause division. Again, you are falsely equating one not remaining in Christ with not remaining in the JW congregation.
Indeed, justification has led JW denomination down a very dark path.
You just don't have eyes to see or ears to hear.
This is a false gospel. Please re-read the articles I provided above. Did you even read the articles?
Your lengthy rationalization is a typical MO. The length of your justification is needed to cover up the lie, the lack of love, the lack of grace. Biological family members who were never part of the JW denomination tend not to be forever shunned. While Jesus prayed God would forgive those who nailed him to a cross, JW's cannot forgive an apostate, plain and simple.
Well I know the five points created from Scripture to rebut teh five points of Armenianism at the Council of Dort, and i know the book "Institutes of the Christian Religion" (from reading it a long long time ago) but I do not know what a Calvinist religion is..
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What is "the Calvinist religion?"
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Well Jesus never forbade holidays, or saying only 144,000 must be born again.
Nor did Jesus deny His own physical resurrection from the dead.
And if you reject who the Son is, you also reject the Father no matter how many times you use the mispronounced name Jehovah!
You also deny the Scriptures!
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 10:9-13
King James Version
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
These three verses destroy the lie of the Watchtower and exposes th efact that they preach another gospel and fall under this passage:
Galatians 1:6-12
King James Version
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
SELAH
Because I do not belong to a Calvinist denomination. Believing in the five points only means you are a Calvinist in regards to the debate between the five points of Armenianism and the five points of Calvininism
I believe Calvin just like Jacob Armenius were both believers. And while I strongly disagree with Armenius' 5 points, I imagine I would believe in alot of his theology. Same with Calvin.
They are both men and that means they most likely have i mperfections in things they wrote. We all do! But I do not know of any Calvinist denominations and what doctrines they adhere to besides the five points.
Before I moved to S.C. last November and became a member of an SBC church, I was a member of an independent unaffiliated local Bible believing Baptist church for 26 years, and before that a non denominational church for 19 years. Before that for the two years I was first saved, I went back to Catholicism (it was all I knew) and was part of the Catholic Charismatic movement.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
You say Jesus didn't say this or that, but he didn't say the opposite either. At Luke 22:29-30-A covenant to the ones who will sit on thrones( to partake of the blood and flesh of Christ) only the little flock will sit on Thrones=144,000, NOT the great crowd.
Do you mean this gospel-John 20:17, Rev 3:12---Eph 1:3,17, 2 Cor 1:3, Coll 1:3, 1 Cor 15:24-28--1Peter 1:3.
-Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and Son. 1John 1:9
-not pilfering but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior(Jesus)
in all things. Titus 2:11
The doctrine of Christ is the doctrine of God our Savior.
-not pilfering but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior(Jesus)
in all things. Titus 2:11
The doctrine of Christ is the doctrine of God our Savior.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Titus 2:13-- While we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of the savior of us Christ Jesus.
That didnt call Jesus God. it spoke of God and of Jesus--see the and.
Titus 2:13,
- ...our great Father and Son Jesus Christ. Godhead Colossians 2:9, - For in Jesus dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Bad translation. ESV, one of the most literal, has it;
Titus 2:11
English Standard Version
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Since this seems to be the main point of contention in your tirade, let me say that for us, there is no difference. When one is related by blood, but is also related in the faith, there is ‘brotherhood’ in both senses. The scriptures do not differentiate.
Who initiated the defection? They did.....not to mention the negative effect on the family members whom they know will have to treat them according to what the scriptures say. You don't have to like it....
There is no accepting of those who treat Jehovah as someone to whom they can dictate their own standards. My God is more important to me than any disgruntled family member who can’t get their own way.....and then wants to 'boo-hoo' about it to justify themselves.
Jesus’ words are clear....”Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.” (Matthew 10:37) Upholding the truth can divide families....we don’t need your permission to interpret the scriptures as we choose to enact their recommendations. When one is disfellowshipped they are no longer regarded as “family”. It was their choice to reject scriptural counsel and they are free to leave. They already know what that means before they commit themselves. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
You know, Wrangler....sometimes I feel like I am talking to two different people.....one seems to be quite polite and reasonable whilst the other is rude and insulting.....who are you today? Check out post #924 and then read these last two tirades....posts #982 and #983....
I'm going to put you back on ignore till you make up your mind who you are. You are one very frustrating person to try to communicate with....I am not interested in your personal opinion of my brotherhood. OK?
No one is forcing you to become a JW...so what is with all the garbage you've been posting? If you find us so offensive then please feel free to ignore me too....you are a Jekyll and Hyde and I have had enough of your 'flip flopping'.....
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Errors in your bible translation. If Jesus were God in the flesh, then why did God have to do all the powerful works through Jesus instead of Jesus doing them? Acts 2:22--1Cor 8:5-6- It proves he was not fully God and fully man. He was mortal while on earth.
NKJV is one of the best English translations.
You are not familiar with the book of Titus. Or you would have noticed my mistake.
Titus 2:10-11,
- not pilfering but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things
- for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men
RR144
Well-Known Member
Well, we're all sinful, but only the proud and boastful make claims for themselves like your Governing Body does. There is no humility among them. You can read it in their words, you can see it in their demeanor on JW.org videos. Claiming to speak for God
"Today, Jehovah guides his people by means of the Bible, his holy spirit, and the congregation. (Acts 9:31; 15:28; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17) The guidance that we receive from him is so clear that it is as if ‘our own ears hear a word behind us saying: “This is the way. Walk in it.”’ (Isa. 30:21) In effect, Jesus also conveys Jehovah’s voice to us as he directs the congregation through “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matt. 24:45) We need to take this guidance and direction seriously, for our everlasting life depends on our obedience." Watchtower 2014 Aug 15 p.21 [https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20140815/hear-jehovahs-voice/]
The Organization operates under the confusing concept of "Provisional Infallibility." On the one hand, Watchtower information is to be accepted unquestioningly as from Jehovah; on the other hand, Watchtower admittedly contains significant mistakes.This is justified by the irrational concept that holy spirit directs the Governing Body, but they are not inspired. This is illogical - inspired means to be directed by holy spirit. The concepts of infallibility and inspiration are simple, yet discussing them in line with Watchtower teachings becomes complicated because by definition it is impossible to have direction of holy spirit but not be inspired. According to the dictionary:
- Infallible; "Incapable of erring" (therefore to be infallible means to be perfect)
- Inspire; "to affect, guide, or arouse by divine influence" (or in other words inspired means to be directed by holy spirit)
As Bible Students, we believe each and every individual is responsible for his or her own doctrinal belief, character development, and support of every other individual. It isn’t as easy as having some greater [human] power telling us what to think and do, but then, we have great privilege to learn of Jehovah how to conduct our affairs in order to glorify Him. Jehovah has provided us with the tools needed for our personal Christian growth, including the Bible, Holy Spirit and the prayer relationship with Him and His Son, Jesus Christ. These tools are also to aid in the support and encouragement of all the body members of the Christ.
We can discuss this later.
Although the Bible Students are few in numbers, we are spread all over the world—America, Canada, England, France, Germany, Poland, New Zealand, Australia, Lithania, Romania, Japan, China, Ukraine, Russia, India, Africa, Brazil, South America, Israel, etc. ... we have no church buildings, as we meet in private homes and rented halls. It's safe to say, there is a convention every month somewhere in the world.
So what "new light" have you received regarding the trinity, hellfire, immortal soul? If we have proved it to ourselves, over and over again, why would we change it? Because truth never changes!
Too many things, as it is no longer recognizable from the days of Russell. But then, you're more a product of J.F. Rutherford. A man who lived
It doesn't need to get brighter when it comes to the fundamentals of God's plan. We may have to refine our thoughts in regards to end time prophecies, as to who are the actual players, king of the north, king of the south, etc. But everything else has been tried and tested and proven to be scriptural sound.
No different than with the teachings of eight men
Yes, I've been to his gravesite. Are you referring to his actual tombstone or the pyramid that sits on the site? His tombstone have been desecrated several times, and it was Bible Students who repaired it. As to the Pyramid marker that sat there, the Society tore it down last year. I was there, I have the photos. So who desecrated who?
As to rolling over in his grave? If Russell would return today, he wouldn't recognize the Society he founded, nor would he approve of what it's become.
The only reason the Witnesses are a "theatrical spectacle to the world" is because you make a nuisance of yourselves.
BWAWAWAWAW .... oh that's a good one!
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Because I have never encountered a single one where I live.....or anywhere I have lived for that matter.
Are you saying that they have been out preaching "in all the inhabited earth" and I have missed them? Are they invisible?
For the purpose of publicly dedicating my life to do the will of the Father....as Jesus did. It is the first step on the road to life.
What were you baptized for?
1 Pet 3:21...Peter likens baptism to Noah's ark....
Baptism, which corresponds to this (Noah and his family being saved through the waters), is also now saving you (not by the removing of the filth of the flesh, but by the request to God for a good conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
A good conscience can only come through the sin atoning value of Christ's death....therefore every person who is baptized has accepted Christ's sacrifice and has vowed to serve his Father's interests on earth as instructed by his son.
As one of the great crowd, my role is not in heaven...but here on earth where Jehovah purposed for mankind to live.
The elect will take the human race back to paradise where he intended for us to enjoy his creation forever. We will continue to support Christ's brothers until the end comes and the kingdom rules so that God's will can be "done, on earth as it is in heaven."
Can you tell me what earth shattering harm is done in musing about the fate of the most disgusting people on the planet? Jehovah will do whatever he wills with regard to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.....what does it matter? We are not going to allow some insignificant subject matter to cloud the real issues. There are bigger and more important things to consider....like what we should be found doing as these last days come to an end. ( 2 Peter 3:11-13)
Well, we are advised to subject ourselves to those who take the lead, (Hebrews 13:17) but not in a subservient way....like Moses was appointed to lead God's people out of slavery in Egypt.....those who conspired against him were put to death. Our anointed brothers have led us out of slavery to Babylon the great. We have identified the "wheat and the weeds" and we await the separation of the "sheep and the goats"......won't that be an interesting time? The significance of the mistakes is minuscule. Did the apostles make significant mistakes? Did it prevent Christ from using them to further his work?
That's interesting....even the first Christians had a governing body in Jerusalem made up of the apostles and elders......when the circumcision issue arose, it was these brothers who met and came to an unanimous decision that circumcision was not a requirement for Gentile Christians. Their decision was passed on to all the congregations for clarification and to settle the issue. (Acts 15:1-2, 6, 22, 27-29) The individual congregations did not decide for themselves what to do about this divisive issue.
Our elders are appointed on qualification, not by election. These are shepherds appointed to lead the sheep, not to dictate to them.
Any elder found abusing his position is either counseled or removed. We have elder's meetings too and all in the congregtion are instructed in God's word by those appointed to be teachers.
I am still waiting for a Bible Student to come to my door.....so what "witness work" is this that you participate in?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Really? Is that what Jesus and his apostles taught? How is your own individual doctrinal belief in sync with everyone else's? (1 Cor 1:10)
Well, it seems as if the witnessing work is being done....."in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations"......but not by you guys. I had no idea that you still existed until I came here. You were just the ones who followed Russell, rather than allow the progressive furthering of God's truth in the hands of equally capable men after Russell's death. You hung onto the man when all he was, was a servant of his God who had faith that the truth of God's purpose would be carried on by others in his place....like the apostles did.
The "wheat" may have been overtaken by the "weeds" but they were never eliminated. They would be hated and persecuted for being witnesses of Jesus, and the one for whom Jesus himself was a "Faithful Witness". (Rev 3:14; John 15:18-21) How are you guys hated and persecuted by the world, when no one has ever heard of you?
The core of Christendom's teachings have not altered but Jehovah's people saw in the early part of the last days that none of what the churches taught was truth. But new light has been shed on many things that were not well understood in those early days. Especially Daniel and the Revelation.
Who is Revelation 21:2-4 talking about? What about John 5:28-29....are these the same ones that are mentioned in Revelation 20:6?
What do you know about J.F. Rutherford? What have you been told about his receiving the appointment of President of the WTBTS after Russell's sudden death?
What do you see as "the fundamentals of God's plan"? What was his original purpose for mankind and how does he achieve his goals in the future as these 'last days' draw to a close? What is your 'big picture'?
The difference is that no one man is running the show. There is a reason why Jesus chose 12 apostles.....not just one to carry on his work.
I am glad to hear that it was removed as he would have wanted. Why would the Bible Students have sought to repair such an erroneous grave marker which was based on a misinterpretation of prophesy? IMO the Society did what Russell would have wanted.....he was in error about the pyramid....but you knew that...right?
He is already in heaven overseeing the work assigned to the members of the elect, resurrected after Jesus' returned in 1914.
As "kings and priests" they have a very important role in bringing mankind back into reconciliation with their Creator.
He is one of us...he would not recognize you.....or your insignificance in the outworking of Jehovah's purpose for these last days. You are MIA in the most important work of our time.
No more of a nuisance than Jesus and his apostles and disciples were. They carried out a 'search and rescue' mission among the "lost sheep" of Israel. We too conduct such a "search" in our own neighboring towns and villages for the "lost" ones, as Jesus commanded....
Matt 10:11-14....
"Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet."
Matt 28:19-20...
"Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
I can't see that you ever got your feet dusty....
I thought you might like that one....
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Aside from any translation with James in the title is the worst translation available today, your mistake was not quoting v11 v v10 but in claiming Scriptures states what you put in parenthesis.
Actually only the apostles will sit on thrones. No where does it say the 144,000 have thrones. It just says they will reign with Jesus.
And besides God gives a very specific definition of the 144,000
1. they are male virgins.
2. They are Jewish
3. they come equally from the 12 tribes.
4. They did not worship the beast
5. they did not worship his image
6. they did not take his mark
7. they were beheaded.
Anyone of the 144,000 has to meet all 7 of these biblical criteria or they are not part of the 144,000
As the beast has not arrived yet, there has not been one of the 144,000 yet.
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