A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[Titus]

Aside from any translation with James in the title is the worst translation available today, your mistake was not quoting v11 v v10 but in claiming Scriptures states what you put in parenthesis.

Really? Jesus isn't our Savior? You gotta be kidding!
2Peter 3:18,
- but grow in the grace and Knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him(Jesus) be the glory both now and forever.

Titus 2:10,
- not pilfering but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior(Jesus) in all things.

 

[Wrangler]

Really? Jesus isn't our Savior? You gotta be kidding!

You are not making a savior substitution but a God substitution. Perhaps you don’t realize it. Rather than add words in parenthesis to Scripture, why don’t you just quote Scripture exactly?

Who saves you from drowning in the water from the Coast Guard, A or B (or both)?
A. Ensign who pulls you from the water?
B. Captain who sent the Ensign to pull you from the water?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Actually only the apostles will sit on thrones. No where does it say the 144,000 have thrones. It just says they will reign with Jesus.

If all are “kings” ruling with Christ, then they are all sitting on thrones figuratively speaking.....can you imagine 144,000 literal thrones? A throne is the seat of rulership in a kingdom. It is symbolism as are their crowns.

And besides God gives a very specific definition of the 144,000

1. they are male virgins.

LOL...well I guess that lets Peter out...he was a married man. We know this because Jesus healed his sick mother-in-law. (Mark 1:29-31) And many of the elect were, and are, females who actually lose their gender upon their resurrection to heaven.

Gal 3:27-29..
“For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.”

2. They are Jewish

The scripture mentioned above points out that all spirit anointed Christians are counted as “Abraham’s offspring” even though they are not “Jewish” by birth, but by adoption. So being “Jewish” is not being a fleshly “Jew”.

3. they come equally from the 12 tribes.

And yet because these are not literal “Jews”, these tribes are not literal Israel either.
12 is a number repeated in scripture as are its multiples. 12 apostles....12 tribes of Israel.....also there are 12 months in a year....24 hours in a day....144,000 tribes of spiritual Israel. (Multiples of 12)

4. They did not worship the beast

True, but who or what is “the beast” and how are humans led to worship it?

5. they did not worship his image

Again what is this “image of the beast”....and how are humans also worshipping it?

6. they did not take his mark

What is the “mark” and how do humans get this mark on their hands and on their foreheads?

7. they were beheaded.

Obviously not all of the elect have been beheaded, but some have, as some in my own brotherhood have experienced in the past under dictatorships. Some Christians were torn apart by wild animals in the Roman arenas for public entertainment because they refused to worship the emperor. Those who died a martyr’s death will receive their reward.

Anyone of the 144,000 has to meet all 7 of these biblical criteria or they are not part of the 144,000
As the beast has not arrived yet, there has not been one of the 144,000 yet.

Sorry, but your scenario is not even close to what the Bible teaches. The 144,000 are almost all in their places in the Kingdom arrangement that is ruling Christ’s disciples on earth as we speak. It is yet to take over rulership of this world, which it will do when the time for the end of wickedness comes....soon we all hope.
Daniel saw that event in vision, and wrote about the March of world powers down to our day.
He saw the current “kings” as “the feet of clay” of a huge image, and said.....
“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever”.
This is what we are waiting for.....

The remaining ones of the 144,000 await their call to heaven when Christ comes to judge the world and to eliminate the ones who have been misled by Satan and who have caused so much damage and heartbreak in this world.
Then we will see the fulfilment of Revelation 21:2-4......
“I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Bring it on!

 

[Keiw]

Actually only the apostles will sit on thrones. No where does it say the 144,000 have thrones. It just says they will reign with Jesus.

And besides God gives a very specific definition of the 144,000

1. they are male virgins.
2. They are Jewish
3. they come equally from the 12 tribes.
4. They did not worship the beast
5. they did not worship his image
6. they did not take his mark
7. they were beheaded.

Anyone of the 144,000 has to meet all 7 of these biblical criteria or they are not part of the 144,000
As the beast has not arrived yet, there has not been one of the 144,000 yet.

Peter was married, not a virgin to a woman--proving some of that is symbolism

That symbolism meaning is found in the OT at 2 Chron 20:33-Even though Jehosaphat was a good king, he failed to remove the high places( where false religious, false god worship practices occurred. 2Chron 21:11 shows God viewed those practices as immoral intercourse) as with a woman--that is the symbolism-they did not have anything to do with false religion or its practices.

Rev 14:3 assures-144,000 are BOUGHT from the earth)= the little flock( Luke 12:32) the anointed bride of Christ, all will sit on thrones beside Jesus.

 

[RR144]

Because I have never encountered a single one where I live.....or anywhere I have lived for that matter.
Are you saying that they have been out preaching "in all the inhabited earth" and I have missed them? Are they invisible?

Bible Students for the most part don't knock on doors like the JW's do. Most of the times we're confused for JW's anyways. And since we're not out to convert as many as we can before Armageddon comes, then going knocking on doors is a mute point.

For the purpose of publicly dedicating my life to do the will of the Father....as Jesus did. It is the first step on the road to life.

Actually Jesus came to save the world through his death and resurrection, that was the will of His Father. Were you called? And if so, for what purpose?

What were you baptized for?

I was baptized because the Lord invited me to follow Him. Despite what you've been taught by your governing body, there is only ONE call, ONE invitation, and that is running the race of the high calling in Christ (Phil. 3:14).

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling" (Eph. 4:4.)​

​

"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints." (Eph. 1:18.)​

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty." (1 Cor. 1:26,27)​

​

"Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath​

promised to them that love him?" (James 2:5)​

As one of the great crowd, my role is not in heaven...but here on earth where Jehovah purposed for mankind to live.

As I said, there is only one call, no one is invited to join the great crowd. Show me one New Testament verse that states, a great crowd lives on earth, or that Christians will live on earth.

Can you tell me what earth shattering harm is done in musing about the fate of the most disgusting people on the planet? Jehovah will do whatever he wills with regard to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.....what does it matter? We are not going to allow some insignificant subject matter to cloud the real issues. There are bigger and more important things to consider....like what we should be found doing as these last days come to an end. ( 2 Peter 3:11-13)

Well, Sodom and Gomorrah is just one subject that the Society has flip flopped on in the last 100 years since the death of Russell. As I may have stated before. Russell wrote a series of book called STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES, they were advertised as THE KEYS TO THE SCRIPTURES. The Society published the last edition in 1927 and let them go out of print. Since then, they have been locked out of the Scriptures, your governing body cannot understand THE DIVINE PLAN because they threw away the Keys that explain it.

Well, we are advised to subject ourselves to those who take the lead, (Hebrews 13:1) but not in a subservient way....

Yeah, I think you have the wrong verse. Get back to me when you find it.

Did the apostles make significant mistakes? Did it prevent Christ from using them to further his work?

What SIGNIFICANT MISTAKES did the apostles make?

That's interesting....even the first Christians had a governing body in Jerusalem made up of the apostles and elders......when the circumcision issue arose, it was these brothers who met and came to an unanimous decision that circumcision was not a requirement for Gentile Christians. Their decision was passed on to all the congregations for clarification and to settle the issue. (Acts 15:1-2, 6, 22, 27-29) The individual congregations did not decide for themselves what to do about this divisive issue.

The twelve Apostles were chosen directly by Jesus, but they had no replacements except, of course, Paul replaced Judas. Just as Jesus selected the original twelve, he selected Paul as a replacement (Acts 9:15). The other Apostles were well meaning, but premature in selecting the replacement Apostle themselves (Acts 1:26). Inspired by God, they were the “twelve stars” crowning the head of the Early Church (Revelation 12:1); also identified the twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem (Acts 21:14). There was no “apostolic succession” of any kind for a body of leadership authority through the Christian Age.

The only time one ecclesia recommended a ruling to the brethren at large was when a Jerusalem counsel decided that the Gentile brethren should not be forced to circumcise. And, of course, at that time, there were actual Apostles in the ecclesia of Jerusalem making that recommendation [decree] to “abstain from meat offered to idols…” (Acts 15:22-29).

Our elders are appointed on qualification, not by election. These are shepherds appointed to lead the sheep, not to dictate to them.

Qualifications based in Scriptures or based on works? Let me ask you, who better knows the members of the congregation? Someone who visits a few times a year or the actual members of the congregation? Appointing someone to a position of authority just because they've knocked on doors for a few hours, or raise their hand to answer a question at the meetings is not the way to appoint someone. His character, his demeanor. His knowledge of the scriptures, just as 1 Timothy 3,

I am still waiting for a Bible Student to come to my door.....so what "witness work" is this that you participate in?

You're so focused on that door, when you and I are right now having a conversation. You're missing the forest for the trees. I'm knocking on your door right now, you answered, and now we're having a discussion.

Only difference is, if you slam the door in my face, I won't condemn you to second death. YOu'll still get what you want, life on a restored earth, because that's what Jehovah gives to everyone EXCEPT the Church.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Bible Students for the most part don't knock on doors like the JW's do. Most of the times we're confused for JW's anyways. And since we're not out to convert as many as we can before Armageddon comes, then going knocking on doors is a mute point.

So what Jesus told you to do is unimportant? You are not out to "convert as many as we can before Armageddon"? (Ezek 3:17-19)
Even though the scriptural command is there in plain sight, you still see no responsibility to put in the legwork?
The command was to "search" for "deserving" or "worthy" ones and "teach them to observe all the things I have commanded you".....the word "commanded" means its not negotiable, not like a recommendation. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

Knocking on doors is what the emergency services personnel do when an impending disaster is about to strike.....they cannot afford to miss anyone so "door to door" ensures that as many as possible are equipped to save themselves.

Actually Jesus came to save the world through his death and resurrection, that was the will of His Father. Were you called? And if so, for what purpose?

"Called" is what the elect experience. Its a "heavenly calling" as Paul describes it. (Heb 3:1) The place where Jesus was going "to prepare a place" for his disciples.
But no Jew believed that they were going to heaven....it was their belief that everlasting life would be spent as citizens of Jehovah's Kingdom on earth, with Israel restored to their place as God's nation with a priesthood and a rebuilt temple.....the earth was where Adam was supposed to spend eternity with all his children......only when the Messiah came was that subject clarified for the disciples of Jesus who were all Jewish.
As Jesus was ascending to heaven, the apostles asked if he was going to "restore the Kingdom to Israel, at that time"? (Acts 1:6)
Progressive understanding again....at Pentecost, the holy spirit revealed something grander for them.

I was baptized because the Lord invited me to follow Him. Despite what you've been taught by your governing body, there is only ONE call, ONE invitation, and that is running the race of the high calling in Christ (Phil. 3:14).

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling" (Eph. 4:4.)​

​

"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints." (Eph. 1:18.)​

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty." (1 Cor. 1:26,27)​

​

"Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath​

promised to them that love him?" (James 2:5)​

All these scriptures pertain to the elect...so you are right....there is one "calling"....but the great crowd are not "called" to heaven, being happy to serve their God on earth....as Isaiah said, 'God did not create the earth for nothing, but meant it to be inhabited'. (Isa 45:18)
Heaven was never in God's plan for mankind from the beginning.....there was no need for a savior, a redeemer or a Kingdom because Jehovah God himself was the Sovereign Ruler....and sin and death did not exist....until the devil struck and Adam made the biggest error in history. There was no going back.....

The need for a savior and a kingdom was God's response to Adam's sin.

As I said, there is only one call, no one is invited to join the great crowd. Show me one New Testament verse that states, a great crowd lives on earth, or that Christians will live on earth.

Revelation 21:2-4...
"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Isa 25:8...
"He will swallow up death forever,
And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces.
The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth,
For Jehovah himself has spoken it."

Matt 5:5..."...the meek shall inherit the earth". (Psalm 37:11)

Well, Sodom and Gomorrah is just one subject that the Society has flip flopped on in the last 100 years since the death of Russell. As I may have stated before. Russell wrote a series of book called STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES, they were advertised as THE KEYS TO THE SCRIPTURES. The Society published the last edition in 1927 and let them go out of print. Since then, they have been locked out of the Scriptures, your governing body cannot understand THE DIVINE PLAN because they threw away the Keys that explain it.

Either that or those who followed the man, instead of the truth of God's word, lost the plot and got stuck in the dark with no new light.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yeah, I think you have the wrong verse. Get back to me when you find it.

Sorry, the 7 key on my laptop is not working too well...
Try Hebrews 13:17....
"Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."
God has always provided shepherds for his people....."by their fruits" you will identify them, Jesus said.

What SIGNIFICANT MISTAKES did the apostles make?

Peter denied knowing Jesus three times. The apostles were constantly arguing over who among them was the greatest.
Judas betrayed the son of God with a kiss....meaning that when he was first chosen, he was not a bad person, but it says that "satan entered into him" because he loved money more than his master.
Great men of faith in the past also made grave mistakes, but that did not stop God from using them to carry out his will. Noah, David, Judah, Moses.....their mistakes were not what God took into account.....it was their positive qualities that he looked at.

The twelve Apostles were chosen directly by Jesus, but they had no replacements except, of course, Paul replaced Judas. Just as Jesus selected the original twelve, he selected Paul as a replacement (Acts 9:15). The other Apostles were well meaning, but premature in selecting the replacement Apostle themselves (Acts 1:26). Inspired by God, they were the “twelve stars” crowning the head of the Early Church (Revelation 12:1); also identified the twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem (Acts 21:14). There was no “apostolic succession” of any kind for a body of leadership authority through the Christian Age.

We agree except where you mention Paul as a "replacement" for Judas.
Acts 1:23-26...
"So they proposed two, Joseph called Barʹsab·bas, who was also called Justus, and Mat·thiʹas. 24 Then they prayed and said: “You, O Jehovah, who know the hearts of all, designate which one of these two men you have chosen 25 to take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas deviated to go to his own place.” 26 So they cast lots over them, and the lot fell to Mat·thiʹas, and he was counted along with the 11 apostles."
It was God who chose Matthias to replace Judas.

Paul was an "apostle to the nations"...a man of education, unlike the humble uneducated fishermen whom Jesus chose after praying to his Father all night. Paul's ministry was not like that of the other apostles...he could hold his own with the educated Greek philosophers. His ministry was an asset when Gentiles were added to the Christian arrangement.

The only time one ecclesia recommended a ruling to the brethren at large was when a Jerusalem counsel decided that the Gentile brethren should not be forced to circumcise. And, of course, at that time, there were actual Apostles in the ecclesia of Jerusalem making that recommendation [decree] to “abstain from meat offered to idols…” (Acts 15:22-29).

Still a governing body. And just because it was the only one mentioned, doesn't mean that this was not the normal way to handle problems in a united way, so that all were given the same information so that they remained of one mind. (1 Cor 1:10)

Qualifications based in Scriptures or based on works? Let me ask you, who better knows the members of the congregation? Someone who visits a few times a year or the actual members of the congregation? Appointing someone to a position of authority just because they've knocked on doors for a few hours, or raise their hand to answer a question at the meetings is not the way to appoint someone. His character, his demeanor. His knowledge of the scriptures, just as 1 Timothy 3,

Now that is rather comical....who on earth told you this? Those appointed to the position of an elder come on the recommendation of the other elders in the congregation....no one who does not know them well, and has observed their good conduct, in line with 1 Tim 3 has any say in the matter.

You're so focused on that door, when you and I are right now having a conversation. You're missing the forest for the trees. I'm knocking on your door right now, you answered, and now we're having a discussion.

What happened for the major part of the Christian era? You are NOT focused on anyone's door, yet Jesus told his disciples to go out and "search" for the "worthy ones" and to teach them.....and baptize them....and here you are saying that an internet discussion was all that was necessary.....that is NOT what Jesus told us to do. You've read it....you know that this kind of conversation is only very new compared to the almost 2,000 years that have elapsed since Jesus gave his command. Was no one supposed to preach in the meantime? The "wheat" have always been in the world, though overpowered somewhat by the "weeds".....they never went away.....some who were brave enough to speak up, lost their lives.

Only difference is, if you slam the door in my face, I won't condemn you to second death. YOu'll still get what you want, life on a restored earth, because that's what Jehovah gives to everyone EXCEPT the Church.

I think you forget that we are living in a judgment period like the people of Noah's day were. (Matt 24:3-39) Noah warned them of God's intentions but no one took him seriously, and when the rains came and the underground springs burst forth, they soon got the message.....but it was too late. This will not be a 'second' death for those who ignore the message today, but a first and permanent one. The "goats" are separated from the "sheep" (who will be granted life), then the goats are dispatched to the lake of fire, which is reserved for the devil and his cronies at the end of the thousand years of Kingdom rule. Only the sheep will inherit life....these are the "other sheep" which are not part of the “little flock” (the elect), but are still saved through the great tribulation. (Rev 7:13-14)

 

[Titus]

Aside from any translation with James in the title is the worst translation available today, your mistake was not quoting v11 v v10 but in claiming Scriptures states what you put in parenthesis.

your mistake was not quoting v11 v v10 but in claiming Scriptures states what you put in parenthesis.

Here's my parenthesis "mistake" according to wrangler:

Titus 2:10,
- not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior(Jesus)
in all things

Is Jesus our Savior according to the apostles teaching? Let Peter answer,

2Peter 3:18,
- but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ....

Wrangler, just accept what the Scripture says.

You are not making a savior substitution but a God substitution

Tell that to Paul, Titus 2:10
Tell that to Peter 2Peter 3:18

Perhaps you don’t realize it.

I realize you don't believe what Paul says i.e. The Savior is God, Titus 2:10
I realize you don't believe what Peter says i.e. Jesus is the Savior.

I realize you do not harmonize scripture with scripture.
The Savior is Jesus, God is the Savior, 2Peter 3:18 = Titus 2:10.

Rather than add words in parenthesis to Scripture, why don’t you just quote Scripture exactly?

Answer: Because parenthesis shows the ignorant who is being spoken of in the context.
For example,
Acts 19:3,
- And he(Paul the apostle) said to them, Into what then were you baptized
and they said, Into John's baptism.

If everyone knew the Scriptures, I would not have to use parenthesis. They would already know who the he is. But folks do not always know.

Rather than add words in parenthesis to Scripture, why don’t you just quote Scripture exactly?

Why is your next question a question that contains no scripture?

Who saves you from drowning in the water from the Coast Guard, A or B (or both)?
A. Ensign who pulls you from the water?
B. Captain who sent the Ensign to pull you from the water

Both are mankind. God is Spirit. God is not one person like man but three persons in one.
The correct answer is both A,B both are essential for being saved from drowning.

God(Father) sends His Son(God) to save the world.
Both are essential to mankind's salvation.
They work together in all things,

John 10:30,
- I(Jesus, Savior, Son, God) and the Father(God) are one

 

[Wrangler]

Here's my parenthesis "mistake" according to wrangler:

Titus 2:10,
- not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior(Jesus)
in all things

The mistake is to add or take away from the word of God. You did it again. Try answering my questions.

Rather than add words in parenthesis to Scripture, why don’t you just quote Scripture exactly?

Who saves you from drowning in the water from the Coast Guard, A or B (or both)?
A. Ensign who pulls you from the water?
B. Captain who sent the Ensign to pull you from the water?

 

[Titus]

The mistake is to add or take away from the word of God. You did it again

False accusation with no proof.
I already answered your question in post # 1008

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sorry, but your scenario is not even close to what the Bible teaches. The 144,000 are almost all in their places in the Kingdom arrangement that is ruling Christ’s disciples on earth as we speak. It is yet to take over rulership of this world, which it will do when the time for the end of wickedness comes....soon we all hope.
Daniel saw that event in vision, and wrote about the March of world powers down to our day.
He saw the current “kings” as “the feet of clay” of a huge image, and said.....

Wrong. the only place the 144,000 is mentioned is in Revelation. the Watchtower forces a reinterpretation to make it the only who can be born again- if you accept Jesus knew how to speak and inspire correctly.

Once again You have failed to prove that your watchtower allegorizing reinterpretation of the plain word of God. has any merit.
YOu have a hard time accepting 144,000 thrones? why? Because you have decided to limit what God can or cannot do?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Peter was married, not a virgin to a woman--proving some of that is symbolism

That symbolism meaning is found in the OT at 2 Chron 20:33-Even though Jehosaphat was a good king, he failed to remove the high places( where false religious, false god worship practices occurred. 2Chron 21:11 shows God viewed those practices as immoral intercourse) as with a woman--that is the symbolism-they did not have anything to do with false religion or its practices.

Rev 14:3 assures-144,000 are BOUGHT from the earth)= the little flock( Luke 12:32) the anointed bride of Christ, all will sit on thrones beside Jesus.

That just makes Peter not one of the 144,000. He did not meet the 7 things god said are true of the 144,000.

Nowhere is the 144,000 called the bride of christ- that is the Watchtower falsely placing one truth where it does not belong!

If the 144,000 are the bride of Christ- then the 144,000 was filled in the 1st Century for Paul called all churches the bride of Christ!

It is humorously sad that you accept as literal the words of the Watchtower concerning who the 144,000 are, yet cast off the very simple, specific and clear teaching as to the 7 things that are true of the 144,000

 

[Keiw]

That just makes Peter not one of the 144,000. He did not meet the 7 things god said are true of the 144,000.

Nowhere is the 144,000 called the bride of christ- that is the Watchtower falsely placing one truth where it does not belong!

If the 144,000 are the bride of Christ- then the 144,000 was filled in the 1st Century for Paul called all churches the bride of Christ!

It is humorously sad that you accept as literal the words of the Watchtower concerning who the 144,000 are, yet cast off the very simple, specific and clear teaching as to the 7 things that are true of the 144,000

I showed what being a virgin meant. Its you who wont believe the bible. Your religions take symbolism as literal and vica versa, because they are in darkness.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Wrong. the only place the 144,000 is mentioned is in Revelation. the Watchtower forces a reinterpretation to make it the only who can be born again- if you accept Jesus knew how to speak and inspire correctly.

The last time I looked, Revelation was the last book of the Bible, so why would you discount what it says?
It was given by God....to Jesus....who gave it to an angel....who then revealed it to John. John recorded it to give to us.....but the deep meaning escaped Christ’s disciples at the time because, like the book of Daniel it was written for “the time of the end”.....which he called “the Lord’s day”....the time when Jesus began ruling as King in heaven whilst the remaining ones of his elect were still on the earth carrying out the work assigned to them, (Matt 28:19-20).....supporting Christ’s “brothers” (the elect) and warning of the impending “day of Jehovah” that God’s prophets had spoken about in times past, was supported by "the great crowd" who do not have a "heavenly calling".

The 144,000 are seen on heavenly Mt Zion with God and the Lamb, being “chosen from among mankind as firstfruits”, whilst the “great crowd” are seen attributing salvation to both of them, meaning that they too are Christians. (Rev 14:1, 3-4; Rev 7:4, 9-10, 13-14)
Their “standing before the throne” is not literal because they are on earth “standing” up for God’s kingdom, when most “Christians” on earth are supporting their national kingdoms, even killing their own “brothers” on opposite sides of bloody political conflicts.......(Matt 5:43-44)

Once again You have failed to prove that your watchtower allegorizing reinterpretation of the plain word of God. has any merit.

You gave your list, and every one of your points was addressed with scripture....yet you still cling to your story as if the scriptures themselves did not speak to you to show you your error. Your list is invalid and the Bible itself shows you why. To claim that Peter was not one of the elect when the apostles form the very foundation of what God’s Kingdom represents, is nonsense. All of the first Christians were of that “calling”. (Heb 3:1)
You think Peter was not a “saint” in the biblical sense of the word? Were the other apostles not “saints” either?
After receiving the Revelation, what did the angel say to the apostle John when he fell down at his feet?

Rev 19:9-10....
“And he tells me: “Write: Happy are those invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.” Also, he tells me: “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God”....

The apostles are fellow slaves of God, just as the angels are. John’s “brothers” are all spirit-anointed Christians who have an assignment....witnessing to Jesus and all that he taught. The theme of Jesus’ entire ministry was God’s Kingdom.....yet, Christendom is hard pressed to tell us exactly what God’s kingdom is, and how it “comes” so that God’s will is “done ON EARTH as it is in heaven”.

YOu have a hard time accepting 144,000 thrones? why? Because you have decided to limit what God can or cannot do?

144,000 literal thrones are not necessary in heaven....God and his Christ use earthly terminology to describe heavenly things, otherwise we would never understand a word that was written in the scriptures.
Describing things in earthly terms gives us insight into many things, not the least of which is the relationship of “Father” and “son”. We understand that relationship but Christendom has changed it completely to accommodate its favored doctrine...adding a third person who in scripture is not a person at all.
In human terms having more than one king sitting on one throne would be ridiculous. And yet in God’s kingdom, these rulers all cooperate together under the direction of their appointed King, Jesus Christ.

It’s not what you say Ronald...it’s what you ignore that is telling. Your protests are completely without foundation or scriptural backing....but that is your choice. We will all stand or fall by what we choose to believe.....is the uncomfortable truth being sacrificed for the comfortable old lies?

ETA... I just realized why its so difficult to accept the 'uncomfortable' truth...it means that those who think that they are "born again", really aren't.
Is that a "strong delusion" that many simply cannot let go of....? (2 Thess 2:9-12) I guess we will all know soon enough.

 

[RR144]

Really? Is that what Jesus and his apostles taught? How is your own individual doctrinal belief in sync with everyone else's? (1 Cor 1:10)

"Now I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, that there be no divisions among you, and that you be united with the same understanding and the same conviction."

Well, apparently that wasn't the same conviction in 1917 when 3/4 of the original Bible Students abandoned the Watch Tower as a dispenser of Truth. Not to mention all the other schisms that have occurred in the last 100 years.

Even the first century Christians had their differences. We have a saying, IN ESSENTIAL UNITY, IN NON-ESSENTIAL LIBERTY, IN ALL THINGS CHARITY (LOVE)"

Jehovah does the calling, He calls us individually, we walk with Him as individuals, because in the end, no amount of hours knocking on doors, no amount of literature left with individuals, no association with a particular denomination will give us life eternal. It is our walk with Him that does. Do Bible Students have their differences? Sure. I know for a fact that JW's have their differences. The only differences between us and you, is that Bible Students can and do discuss these differences. We can agree to disagree. You can't. If you openly disagree, you'll be disfellowshipped.

Well, it seems as if the witnessing work is being done....."in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations"......but not by you guys. I had no idea that you still existed until I came here. You were just the ones who followed Russell, rather than allow the progressive furthering of God's truth in the hands of equally capable men after Russell's death. You hung onto the man when all he was, was a servant of his God who had faith that the truth of God's purpose would be carried on by others in his place....like the apostles did.

We don't follow the man, he was just a man, but a man used of God. We examined what he said, using Scripture and reason and we found it to be solidly based on Scripture. Many of us have examined what others believe, including the Jehovah's Witnesses, and found what they offered was lacking.

Besides, what's the difference between 1 man and your governing body?

The "wheat" may have been overtaken by the "weeds" but they were never eliminated. They would be hated and persecuted for being witnesses of Jesus, and the one for whom Jesus himself was a "Faithful Witness". (Rev 3:14; John 15:18-21) How are you guys hated and persecuted by the world, when no one has ever heard of you?

Is that you're only defense? "No one's never heard of you"? Apparently Hitler knew who we were, he threw us in concentration camps. Apparently Communist countries knew who we were, they banned us. Apparently the old Soviet union knew who we were, they locked us up not for owning a Bible, but for owning a copy of "The Divine Plan of the Ages". You have no clue, you know what only your GB tells you. But if you opened your eyes and did some research, you would know that Bible Students have been banned, persecuted, tortured and put to death in the last 100 years.

... new light has been shed on many things that were not well understood in those early days. Especially Daniel and the Revelation.

And 100 years later, your leaders are still introducing new light, you'd think after 100 years, you'd figure it out by now.

What do you know about J.F. Rutherford? What have you been told about his receiving the appointment of President of the WTBTS after Russell's sudden death?

What do I know? You'd be surprised what I know and have. Over 6,000 books in my library, all Bible Student, Watchtower related. It amazes me how the Society writes a history of events, and each history, contradicts the previous ones. They rewrite their history, historical revisionism. We can discuss that if you'd like. I'll even post scans of the original Watchtower pages. So you can reference yourself, in case you think I photoshopped it. I'm sure your Kingdom Hall library may have them on the shelf.

What do you see as "the fundamentals of God's plan"? What was his original purpose for mankind and how does he achieve his goals in the future as these 'last days' draw to a close? What is your 'big picture'?

Well, it's gonna take more than a paragraph to share the fundamentals. There's a video FOR THIS CAUSE that outlines the Divine Plan as we believe it to be:

The difference is that no one man is running the show. There is a reason why Jesus chose 12 apostles.....not just one to carry on his work.

Truth is, is that the "Faithful and wise servant" is an individual, and not a group of people. check the Greek.

I am glad to hear that it was removed as he would have wanted. Why would the Bible Students have sought to repair such an erroneous grave marker which was based on a misinterpretation of prophesy? IMO the Society did what Russell would have wanted.....

Keep in mind it was Rutherford who had the pyramid built, not Russell.

he was in error about the pyramid....but you knew that...right?

I'm not so sure he was. Here is a short discussion on the subject.

Here is a presentation on the subject:

It's your choice whether to watch it or not.

No more of a nuisance than Jesus and his apostles and disciples were. They carried out a 'search and rescue' mission among the "lost sheep" of Israel. We too conduct such a "search" in our own neighboring towns and villages for the "lost" ones, as Jesus commanded....
Matt 10:11-14....

And what is it you're searching and rescuing for?

 

[RR144]

I had to cut this out and post it separately because it was more than 1000 characters. It sh

Who is Revelation 21:2-4 talking about? What about John 5:28-29....are these the same ones that are mentioned in Revelation 20:6?

Rev. 21:2-4

2. And I [the John Class] saw the holy city [government of Christ], new Jerusalem [government of peace], coming down from God out of heaven [the divine authority from God], prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3. And I [the John Class] heard a great voice [proclamation from Christ] out of heaven [“the throne,” Sinaitic, Alexandrine, from Christ’s authority] saying, Behold, the tabernacle [temporary dwelling place] of God [God will not literally dwell on earth, but only through his representative Christ] is with men, and he will dwell [associate] with them, and they shall be his people, and God him self shall be with them, and be their God. 4. And God [through Christ] shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev. 20:6

6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first [primary] resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests [both] of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years [“the thousand years,” Westcott & Hort Interlinear Translation].

As to John 5:28, 29, since you're not familiar with Bible Student theology, you'll probably have some questions regarding our beliefs on the Little Flock, the Great Company and the Ancient Worthies.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 59

In verses 28 and 29, Jesus was speaking primarily of the Kingdom Age. Notice the two component parts: those who “have done good” and those who “have done evil.” Those who have done good would be the Little Flock, the Great Company, (both heavenly classes) and the Ancient Worthies These would be the ancient prophets of old, some who are mentioned in Hebrews 11, (the “spirits of just men made perfect”—Heb. 12:23). The Ancient Worthies will be raised perfect, having already proven faithful. When the Kingdom is established, the krisis period for each of these three classes will already have occurred, whereas the world will get their krisis period in the Kingdom.

“Damnation” (Greek krisis) means “judgment.” Krisis is translated “condemnation” in verse 24 and “judgment” in verse 27. The thought is of a trial period, not just a verdict. The Revised Standard Version has “resurrection of judgment,” that is, a resurrection of stripes and disciplines. Thus the nature of the judgment is shown rather than just final judgment.

In regard to those who “have done good,” there is a krisis period in which the pros and cons of each individual are weighed. At the end of the period, a verdict is rendered as to whether one is considered worthy of life. The verdict takes place before the individual is raised from the grave. If the decision is favorable, the individual gets perfect life upon being raised. If the decision is unfavorable, the individual does not come forth.

Those who “have done evil” are the world of mankind, who are not on trial for life now as individuals. (Nations and institutions are on trial in the present age in a collective sense.) Those of the world who have not merited Second Death will come forth to a resurrection by judgment, testing, and correction.

Notice that in these verses, Jesus did not take an abject, humble attitude and lay himself down as a doormat but told who had come to planet Earth. The Royal Majesty of heaven had now appeared! If the Jews had known that a sure heir-apparent to a future Kingdom was in their midst, they would probably have treated him well, hoping that when he came into his power, he would remember them in a very favorable way.

Healing the impotent man on the sabbath brought up this whole subject. The Jews found fault with Jesus, their attitude being, “By what authority do you do these things? You take too much upon yourself.” Jesus said that the Father continues to be active and the Son is also active. Jesus tried to reason that there is more to this subject than their narrow vision on the principles of sabbath-keeping. Some people think of the letter of the Law and do not realize there are times when the spirit supersedes the letter, such as healing the sick and David’s eating the shewbread when he was famished. Hence there are times when technically breaking the sabbath is not a violation.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I showed what being a virgin meant. Its you who wont believe the bible. Your religions take symbolism as literal and vica versa, because they are in darkness.

No I believe the bible as it is written, not reinterpreted by an organization allegorizing the word to fit their toxic agenda.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The last time I looked, Revelation was the last book of the Bible, so why would you discount what it says?

Misquoting me is bad form. I do not discount it in the least! what I discount is the lying reinterpretation the Watchtower has made of who the 144,000 is. They and you have to reinterpret all 7 points of what god said the 144,000 are to fit your lie that only 144,000 can be born again1

You gave your list, and every one of your points was addressed with scripture....yet you still cling to your story as if the scriptures themselves did not speak to you to show you your error. Your list is invalid and the Bible itself shows you why. To claim that Peter was not one of the elect when the apostles form the very foundation of what God’s Kingdom represents, is nonsense. All of the first Christians were of that “calling”. (Heb 3:1)
You think Peter was not a “saint” in the biblical sense of the word? Were the other apostles not “saints” either?
After receiving the Revelation, what did the angel say to the apostle John when he fell down at his feet?

It is he bibles list and you did not giver Bible answers for any of them. all you did is vomit back out the reinterpretation of Scripture the Watchtower has written oof Gods Word to fit their toxic agenda! What is written in Watchtower literature is not the Word of God concerning the 144,000, but the word of men.

The apostles are fellow slaves of God, just as the angels are. John’s “brothers” are all spirit-anointed Christians who have an assignment....witnessing to Jesus and all that he taught. The theme of Jesus’ entire ministry was God’s Kingdom.....yet, Christendom is hard pressed to tell us exactly what God’s kingdom is, and how it “comes” so that God’s will is “done ON EARTH as it is in heaven”.

Maybe apostate Christendom, but we, the true followers of Jesus know full well what it means to have His will be done on earth as in heaven.

144,000 literal thrones are not necessary in heaven....God and his Christ use earthly terminology to describe heavenly things, otherwise we would never understand a word that was written in the scriptures.
Describing things in earthly terms gives us insight into many things, not the least of which is the relationship of “Father” and “son”. We understand that relationship but Christendom has changed it completely to accommodate its favored doctrine...adding a third person who in scripture is not a person at all.

Well as the 144,000 are not promised thrones- your comment is irrelevant. And yes God uses earthly things to try to explain the unexplainable, but then cults like the Watchtower abuse this to the extreme to lure away people.

In human terms having more than one king sitting on one throne would be ridiculous. And yet in God’s kingdom, these rulers all cooperate together under the direction of their appointed King, Jesus Christ.

Yetr teh apostles will sit on 12 thrones! Unless of course those simple words, Jesus didn't mean.

It’s not what you say Ronald...it’s what you ignore that is telling. Your protests are completely without foundation or scriptural backing....but that is your choice. We will all stand or fall by what we choose to believe.....is the uncomfortable truth being sacrificed for the comfortable old lies?

ETA... I just realized why its so difficult to accept the 'uncomfortable' truth...it means that those who think that they are "born again", really aren't.
Is that a "strong delusion" that many simply cannot let go of....? (2 Thess 2:9-12) I guess we will all know soon enough.

I gave scrip[ture- I don't need additional backing. I am very comfortable with teh truth.

The Watchtower will, in time, be exposed as a false religion just like Father divine, David Koresh, Jim Jones, tjhe RCC, the LDS and hosts of others who have twisted the scriptures to their own destruction. I know whom I serve.

 

[ElieG12]

Jehovah's Witnesses do not need someone from the world to confirm our relationship with God...we do not work for anyone from the world, and our identity comes from God and is secure and firm. When a Jehovah's Witness posts on an internet forum, everyone knows who is ... what we believe, what our official site is, where we can be found, what we do, what we don't do, etc.

When anyone criticizes us, insults us and attacks us... who is that? Just a nobody who thinks he gains value when he attacks us, quixotic... If we're here it's to help you; none of you gives us anything. We know who we are, and you know who we are, but: who do you think you are?

 

[The Learner]

But we are required to reach out to them with the true gospel.

Not everyone has the knowledge or calling to reach out to them. I have been doing this for over 50 years now. A new believer should spend their time learning true doctrines under wise teachers. 2 John 1:10 tells the lady in charge, not to let false teachers into the church so not to have people lead astray.