A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[The Learner]

Thank you, that was very informative, detailing how an ancient edifice, connected to an ancient culture came to be viewed as something it wasn’t. There is way more assumption than fact in that presentation. What does a pyramid have to do with God and his Christ? Do we see pyramids erected in Israel to bury their kings?
Egypt came into existence through the flood survivors' descendants, through Noah’s son Ham.
Ancient Egypt’s religion appears to have been mainly a matter of ceremonies and spells, designed to achieve certain desired results through the providence of one or more of their numerous gods, so not really any connection to the true God there, spiritually speaking.

By the time of the tower of Babel, earth’s inhabitants were again rebelling against God, and Nimrod was leading the way by disobeying God’s specific directive to spread out in the earth. He instead became the world’s first political leader and promoted the building of cities to make a great name for himself and the pagan culture he was leading. God responded by confusing their language, and forcing them to separate and quit building their tower of false impression.....supposedly "with its top in the heavens" so that if God were to flood the world again, they would have a place of escape. (legend has it).....so again mankind were alienated from their Creator.

I just shook my head actually, because I had to ask why God would build such an edifice to show what the simple words of Genesis 3:15 had already demonstrated? This was God’s immediate response to Adam’s sin.....not the building of a gigantic monument that is connected to rebellious people and the worship of false deities....but a simple but profound prophesy that would reach way into the future....to our day.

The meaning of Genesis 3:15 was shrouded in mystery for many centuries until Messiah came and God’s spirit revealed who the ‘players’ were. The "heel" wound was struck in the first century with Christ’s death, but it was only temporarily disabling because God resurrected his son who would later inflict the fatal "head" wound that will come at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect. The devil and his hoards will then be consigned to the lake of fire where the "goats" will already be. (Matt 25:41)

The whole point of the preaching work is to....
1) To tell people about the “good news of the Kingdom” (Matt 24:14)....so what is that good news?....that finally mankind will have a government of God ruling over the whole earth, bringing about the blessings that God intended for the human race right at the beginning. Those chosen to rule mankind will all have lived as humans on earth (including Jesus) and will be compassionate and patient with sinners as Jesus was, bringing about an end to sin and death, and facilitating a complete reconciliation with Jehovah, their Creator.

2) Because we are again living in a judgment period, it is imperative that we warn the people of God’s impending day when all the people of the earth will stand before his appointed judge. We have to give them the message because their lives are at stake, and we owe them the truth of God’s word in a world where it has been lost in the confusion of Christendom’s many false doctrines. The "weeds" that Jesus said would be "sown by the devil" would envelop those who were weak in faith and lead them off into many different directions......following the "doctrines of men". (Matt 15:7-9)

This responsibility is so great that God indicated to his prophet Ezekiel....

“Son of man, I have appointed you as a watchman to the house of Israel; and when you hear a word from my mouth, you must warn them from me. 18 When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you.” (Ezekiel 3:17-18)

We are under obligation to these people to warn them and to help them to change their ways. If they refuse to listen and to come to God in repentance, then they will never be able to say..."no one told me"....and we will never be able to say "I didn't warn them". (Matt 24:37-39)

There are only two categories of people who will perish at the judgment.....
2 Thess 1:6-10...
"This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you."

So those who "do not know God" because they don't want to know him....and those who know, but "do not obey" the teachings of his Christ because they don't think it is necessary to carry out ALL that he taught and commanded.....(just the convenient things will do)....."everlasting destruction" is what they can expect.....but "the witness" given to them was to form the basis of their judgment.

Who is providing that global witness? (Rom 10:14-15; Matt 24:14) Who are calling on people all over the world to offer them the good news that soon this ugly world of wicked mankind will be eliminated from existence, to make way for the "meek" to "inherit the earth" under the rulership of God's Kingdom? Can it be from a people about whose existence, hardly anything is known?

The light on the path has not brightened for you guys (Prov 4:18)....as far as I can see, you are stuck with old, outdated understanding and little knowledge of your real obligations toward others.

we need a friendly icon

 

[The Learner]

What gives you the idea that we do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead? Is it the word "physically"...and by that do you mean in the flesh? Is that what Peter said? Did Jesus rise physically from the dead as Lazarus had done?
"For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit." (1 Peter 3:18)

A very important point was made by the apostle Paul....
"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"....flesh and blood, IOW, if mortal creatures that were designed to live on Earth, cannot inherit the heavenly Kingdom, then Jesus did not rise in the flesh. He rose as Peter said..."in the spirit"....as a spirit he could return to heaven in the form he had before coming to fulfill his mission on earth.


Indeed those folks who fail to "do the will of the Father" will be rejected, even though they are so certain of their standing with God, prophesying, casting demons and doing wonderful works, all in Jesus' name....and yet Jesus says, "I never knew you"...."never" means "not ever".....so not for a single day has Jesus ever known these "workers of iniquity".


He didn't physically rise from the dead.....If flesh and blood cannot go to heaven, show me where it says this....?

flesh & blood is an idom for sinful people. His physical Resurrection was flesh and bone, his blood is on the altar in Heaven.

Colossians 1:20
and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

Hebrews 9:12-14
King James Version
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 9 - King James Version

Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the...

www.biblegateway.com

Luke 24:39
Look at my hands and my feet; see that it is I myself. Touch me and see; for a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.’

13 If you are always trying to do good, no one can really harm you. 14 But you may suffer for doing right. If that happens, you have God’s blessing. “Don’t be afraid of the people who make you suffer; don’t be worried.”[a] 15 But keep the Lord Christ holy in your hearts. Always be ready to answer everyone who asks you to explain about the hope you have. 16 But answer them in a gentle way with respect. Keep your conscience clear. Then people will see the good way you live as followers of Christ, and those who say bad things about you will be ashamed of what they said.

17 It is better to suffer for doing good than for doing wrong. Yes, it is better if that is what God wants.

18 Christ himself suffered when he died for you,
and with that one death he paid for your sins.
He was not guilty,
but he died for people who are guilty.
He did this to bring all of you to God.
In his physical form he was killed,
but he was made alive by the Spirit.(or by the spirit).
19 And by the Spirit he went and preached to the spirits in prison. 20 Those were the spirits who refused to obey God long ago in the time of Noah. God was waiting patiently for people while Noah was building the big boat. And only a few—eight in all—were saved in the boat through the floodwater. 21 And that water is like baptism, which now saves you. Baptism is not the washing of dirt from the body. It is asking God for a clean conscience. It saves you because Jesus Christ was raised from death. 22 Now he has gone into heaven. He is at God’s right side and rules over angels, authorities, and powers.

Me: from context of I Peter 3, it is not about his Resurrection, it is about what he did between phyiscal death and physical rising from the Dead.

Me: I am too tired to find the blook on the altar in Heaven.

 

[Keiw]

Not at all! If The Father is the only true god- then Jesus has to be a false God, not that Watchtower garbage that says He is a reflection of the true.

God is both an essence (like humanity is the essence of people) As well as a person. The Father is the God who is above all including Jesus as a person. However, Jesus is equally divine as His Father or equally god as His Father.

Equal in essence but subordinate in position!

I already explained that to you--small g god is not calling that one God. 2 Cor 4:4 proves it.

 

[RR144]

I would be interested to hear about that. What do the Bible Student think about Christ's "Parousia"?

As you know when we speak about the Lord’s PRESENCE, we think about the Greek word PAROUSIA. PAROUSIA is literally rendered “Beside Being”. It’s Strong's 3952 meaning “a presence”. Vines defines it as Presence. PARA meaning with and OUSIA meaning with being. It’s used 25 times in the New Testament, 17 of those uses apply to our Lord’s second advent (return).

It NEVER applies to Jehovah. Because Jehovah is NOT PAROUSIA, He’s not “beside being”. So the distinction we want to make is that the Heavenly Father has never left heaven. Jesus has, he left heaven at his first advent, and he’s left heaven at his second advent. (Acts 3:19-21) to return to earth’s atmosphere.

So it’s important that we see an positional distinct work of Jehovah who remains in heaven and that of Jesus who He sends to carry out the work that Jehovah planned for him, the “restitution of all things”. (Acts 3:21) So it’s a personal return, NOT a physical return as most in Christendom believe, bit a personal one.

Do we agree so far? If we do, then there’s a problem, because the Society teaches that Jesus does not personally return, but like the Father simply turns his favor or attention to the earth. For lack of space I’ll quote one Watchtower article and to my knowledge this view has not changed.

“Not only are we not to look for Christ to be visible to human eyes when he comes again but we should not even think of his leaving heaven and coming within the confines of earth’s atmosphere for him to be present. He returns or “visits” the earth as did Jehovah in times past, by turning his attention to things of earth. Thus Jehovah did not literally come down or “visit” (King James Version) the Israelites while they were in Egypt or at the time of the birth of John the Baptist; rather, he “turned his attention” to them. Likewise, when he began to call out a people from the nations for his name he did not literally “visit” but “turned his attention to the nations.” (Ex. 4:31; Luke 1:68; Acts 15:14, NW) See also An American Translation and Moffatt”. w55 2/15 p. 102-103

This view literally does not favor what the scriptures are telling us, or for that matter, what PAROUSIA mean. Because Jesus does PERSONALLY return.

At His first advent, Jesus was actually and personally here. Second advent, Jesus will be actually and personally here. To my mind, it just logically flows. God did not have a first advent, nor did he have a second advent, God doesn’t have an advent. But Jesus has a first and second advent, separated by a period of time, in which he was developing the Gospel Age Church, sowing the seeds that during his second advent, he would then harvest. Gathering the wheat class that would be His bride.

Bible Students believe that Jesus returned to the earth’s atmosphere.

“Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.” - Thess. 4:17 NWT

Paul is talking about the resurrection and the Lord’s return. A reunion, first with the sleeping saints, and then with the saints as each one dies and is resurrected in a “twinkling of an eye” – 1 Cor. 15:52 and where do they meet? They meet in the air.

Let’s talk about that word AIR a little bit. Strong’s #109 a similar usage of this word is found in Acts 22:23

“Because they were crying out, throwing their outer garments about, and tossing dust into the air” NWT

Now you know how far that is? How far can you throw dust? Very close. Ephesians 2:2 gives us some insight.

“in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.”

“Air” here is the same word, this is where Satan and the fallen angels dwell. We know Satan isn’t in heaven, he’s in the air, the earth’s atmosphere.

Interestingly the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia states regarding the word AIR: “the air was the dwelling place of spirits, especially of evil spirits.”

Thayer’s Greek Lexicon: the air (particularly the lower and denser, as distinguished from the higher and rarer, the atmospheric region:

Vine’s Expository Dictionary: "air," signifies "the atmosphere."

So we believe that the Lord returns to the earth’s atmosphere and that’s where the saints meet him. They’re here on location. The Lord has come here right into Satan’s domain, which fits in with the parable of the “strong man” Matt. 12:29; Mark 3:27

“No one who enters the house of a strong man is able to steal his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Only then can he plunder his house.” NWT

Jesus personally returns to deal with Satan and the fallen angels, and he personally returns to get His Bride.

Notice the emphasis in 1 Thess. 4:16, “The Lord himself shall descend from heaven”. That it’s really Him and that He really comes.

Let’s look at Rev. 18:1, 2 a similar concept but adds to it:

“After this I saw another angel descending from heaven with great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his glory. 2 And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a place where every unclean spirit and every unclean and hated bird lurks!”

Bible Students believe that this angel is none other than Jesus, which I believe the Witnesses also believe (Revelation Climax, chapter 36)

“And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while.” - Rev 20:1-3

This again is reminiscent of breaking into the “strong man” house and binding him (Matthew 12:29).

Jesus returns as a “thief in the night” (1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Pet. 3:10). The “strong man” is Satan, and the “strong man’s house” is Satan’s kingdom. If the “strong man’s house” is that which is under Satanic control, then the one who binds the “strong man” must be greater, stronger, and superior. Thus there are two “strong men” (see Luke 11:21,22)

This is what the Lord does upon His return. He enlightens the world, both spiritually and temporally with the increase of knowledge. (Dan. 12:4) Keep in mind also what our Lord said to His disciples, “If I go … I shall return”, he left earth. Where did he go? To the Father. Where was the Father? In heaven. Where is he returning too? The earth.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If Jesus did not rise on teh body He died in, you are yet in your sins. But Jesus did rise! The very word resurrection means just that!

And 1 Peter 3:18 should read "by" the spirit for that is consistent with the rest of the NT Epistles!

1 Peter 3:18 in the KJV says what it says in most other Bibles. He was resurrected “in the spirit” not “by” the spirit.

You really demonstrate how little you know when you you fail to understand what the “first resurrection” is all about. It is a spiritual resurrection to heaven. Flesh and blood cannot exist in heaven because mortals are earth bound creatures who cannot live outside of earth’s atmosphere. There are two resurrection outlined in the Bible...one for the elect to be resurrected as Jesus was, in spirit form and the remaining ones on earth will be instantly transformed into spirit form when Christ comes to judge the world. (Rev 20:6)
The general resurrection of the dead (John 5:28-29) occurs after the earth has been cleansed of all wickedness, and the rulership of God’s Kingdom with Jesus and his elect, ready to rule mankind and take them back to God’s original purpose...to live forever in paradise on earth.

Jesus did not die and invisible spirit creature so He cannot "ana-stasis" as an invisible spirit creature. ANASTASIS means a standing AGAIN. Jesus did not stand the first time as an invisible spirit creature.

Oh good grief! Who said Jesus died as a spirit? “Resurrection” is indeed “standing up again” but the body that stands up does not have to be physical. A physical body is mortal so it cannot be immortal because it is earthbound, dependent on the things God created to sustain mortal life here on earth. We can be granted “everlasting life” or “life without end” but “immortal” life has to be lived in the spirit realm where Jehovah himself resides and where Jesus returned after his mission was complete.
You have your focus on your doctrine and not on what the Bible says about the difference between everlasting mortal life and immortality.....they are two different things, experienced in two different realms.

I know the WT has declared they have the right to reveal new light any time and you cannot question it, but Peter said this about those who through their philosophy reinterpret the plain meaning of Scripture:

2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

And you cannot for one moment see that this could be talking about your own teachers.....did you formulate your own doctrines, or did someone formulate them for you, and you heartily accepted them?

Don’t you see that what you accept as truth is actually ancient lies that were fed to “the church” that claimed to be “Christian” not long after the death of the apostles, but whose behaviour was anything but.

Jesus himself warned about the “weeds” that the devil would sow in the same “field” as he sowed the “wheat”.....could it be that you yourself are a victim of those “weeds” of counterfeit Christianity? How would you know? Disunity and disharmony are not produced by God’s spirit. All of Christ’s true disciples must be in agreement, because neither Christ nor his Father promote disunity or false religious teachings as truth. (1 Cor 1:10)

We are all either true Christians or false Christians....Jesus indicates in Matt 7:21-23 that we will not know until the judgment if we have qualified to be recognised as one of his own. Be careful of misplaced confidence. (1 Cor 10:12)

 

[Keturah]

1 TIMOTHY 1:17 KJV
"Now unto the King ,eternal, immortal, invisible the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."
AMEN !

ROMANS CHAPTER 2KJV
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing  seek for glory and honour and  immorality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

[RR144]

Thank you, that was very informative, detailing how an ancient edifice, connected to an ancient culture came to be viewed as something it wasn’t. There is way more assumption than fact in that presentation. What does a pyramid have to do with God and his Christ? Do we see pyramids erected in Israel to bury their kings?

Why would pyramids be built in Israel? Our detractors believe that Russell came up with his chronological dates from the pyramid, but that isn't true. Fact is, is that the pyramid actually details the Divine Plan. However, when Rutherford became making random changes to the Divine Plan, the pyramid no longer corroborated it, so he discarded it as being built by Satan.

Egypt came into existence through the flood survivors' descendants, through Noah’s son Ham.
Ancient Egypt’s religion appears to have been mainly a matter of ceremonies and spells, designed to achieve certain desired results through the providence of one or more of their numerous gods, so not really any connection to the true God there, spiritually speaking.

History informs us that Egypt was at one time invaded by an Eastern nation called Hyksos, or Shepherd Kings, who compelled the people of the land to close their idolatrous temples and enlisted them to erect the Great Pyramid. The Egyptians had therefore no personal interest in the work.

But that's okay, if you don't get it. The Pyramid is just a secondary proof to what we believe, you can take it or leave it. No judgment from me.

I just shook my head actually, because I had to ask why God would build such an edifice to show what the simple words of Genesis 3:15 had already demonstrated? This was God’s immediate response to Adam’s sin.....not the building of a gigantic monument that is connected to rebellious people and the worship of false deities....but a simple but profound prophesy that would reach way into the future....to our day.

Didn't Jehovah say "My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways.” Isa. 55:8. What do you say about Isaiah 19:19, 20

"On that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the center of the land of Egypt and a pillar to the Lord near her border. 20 It will be a sign and witness to the Lord of Hosts in the land of Egypt."​

​

It certainly seems to describe the Great Pyramid.

2) Because we are again living in a judgment period, it is imperative that we warn the people of God’s impending day when all the people of the earth will stand before his appointed judge.

You are so consumed with this preaching work, that you missed the forest for the trees. You have accepted a doctrine about a "Faithful and Discreet Slave Class" that closed the door in 1935? 1935??? And then decide the Great Crowd is an earthly class, a secondary class of Christians, who aren't really Christians in the Biblical sense of the word. You have NO standing with God. You don't have holy Spirit, you have no mediator, because according to Watchtower theology Christ is mediator for only the 144,000, you have NO covenant relationship with God. There is NO group of people in the New Testament that is called to live on earth. Earth is the default. Everyone OUTSIDE the anointed gets earth. That was God's original plan.

Yes, and that judgment period will be DURING the millennial reign. NOT now, the only thing being judged now will be the systems, political, religious and financial. They will be destroyed.

We are under obligation to these people to warn them and to help them to change their ways. If they refuse to listen and to come to God in repentance, then they will never be able to say..."no one told me"....and we will never be able to say "I didn't warn them". (Matt 24:37-39)

Again, that judgment period is during the Kingdom reign.

The light on the path has not brightened for you guys (Prov 4:18)....as far as I can see, you are stuck with old, outdated understanding and little knowledge of your real obligations toward others.

The Churches obligation is first to themselves, to be Christlike like their head. That is their calling, like the head, so the body. A perfect character, because Jehovah isn't going to give immortality to just anyone. You see, doctrines can be learned, but building true character takes a life time.

As to Proverbs 4:18? Let me share a quote from Pastor Russell:

"If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now: But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. "New light" never extinguishes older "light," but adds to it. If you were lighting up a building containing seven gas jets you would not extinguish one every time you lighted another, but would add one light to another and they would be in harmony and thus give increase of light: So is it with the light of truth; the true increase is by adding to, not by substituting one for another." - R188​

​

You understand what he's saying? Rutherford changed just about everything Russell taught, when he died, Knorr changed what Rutherford taught, and with each succeeding president, changed came about, until the inauguration of the Governing Body in the mid 1970s.Then every time there was a "change of guard" more changes came about. Like Russell stated, "New light" never extinguishes older "light," but adds to it. What they've done in going down a long dark corridor is light gas jets (candle or lightbulb) to see what was in front of them, then light another, while going back and turning off the previous one, so that they can only see with a few feet around them. But if you turned on each bulb and you walked that corridor, you could see clearly what was ahead and what you left behind. The Divine Plan might seem "old and stale" to you, but it's the ONLY plan that makes sense, that harmonizes God's Word from Genesis to Revelation. What the Witnesses have is "Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained, with no real details in between. You know how sin came into the world, and you know God's Kingdom will fix it, but you've lost sight of everything in between, how God is going to fix, and those details are so beautiful.

You know Jane, all I can say is, if living on earth is what you want, then living on earth is what you'll get, but there's nothing special you have to do to get it, because everyone else will get it too.

Lord Bless!

RR

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You really demonstrate how little you know when you you fail to understand what the “first resurrection” is all about. It is a spiritual resurrection to heaven. Flesh and blood cannot exist in heaven because mortals are earth bound creatures who cannot live outside of earth’s atmosphere. There are two resurrection outlined in the Bible...one for the elect to be resurrected as Jesus was, in spirit form and the remaining ones on earth will be instantly transformed into spirit form when Christ comes to judge the world. (Rev 20:6)
The general resurrection of the dead (John 5:28-29) occurs after the earth has been cleansed of all wickedness, and the rulership of God’s Kingdom with Jesus and his elect, ready to rule mankind and take them back to God’s original purpose...to live forever in paradise on earth.

The first resurrection in REv. 20 is the resurrection of tribulation saints killed during the 7 year period right before Jesus physically returns to earth to reign for 1,000 years just as is written. they are physically raised and rule with Jesus on earth.

Maybe you should read what Jesus said about His resurrected body in Luke 24:39!

Jesus was never careless but very very intentional with His use of Words.

Oh good grief! Who said Jesus died as a spirit? “Resurrection” is indeed “standing up again” but the body that stands up does not have to be physical. A physical body is mortal so it cannot be immortal because it is earthbound, dependent on the things God created to sustain mortal life here on earth. We can be granted “everlasting life” or “life without end” but “immortal” life has to be lived in the spirit realm where Jehovah himself resides and where Jesus returned after his mission was complete.
You have your focus on your doctrine and not on what the Bible says about the difference between everlasting mortal life and immortality.....they are two different things, experienced in two different realms.

Yes it does have to be whatever body was laid down. If it is different it is ot a sanding up again, but simply a standing up. the entire world except those indoctrinated by the Watchtower recognized resurrecting one from the dead means a bodily resurrection.

Then when you add their heretical concept of the 144,000 as the only born again, now you have two resurrections and not one. A spiritual and a physical for all but the 144,000. They redefine words and you just willingly swallow their redefining words and Scripture. but then again yo have been taught that they alone can interpret Scripture and you must accept it or be disfellowshipped.

Even if you accept something that the WT doesn't teach and are disfellowshipped or censured, and later they teach the very thing you accepted- you still are disfellowshipped for moving ahead of the Organization!

You have your focus on your doctrine and not on what the Bible says about the difference between everlasting mortal life and immortality.....they are two different things, experienced in two different realms.

How can one hope to have an intelligent discussion with one who has accepted not only a reinterpretation of Scripture but also redefining words that have meant the same for millenia? Immortal means no death! they are not two different things! Remember heaven comes down to earth! and if you are not born again listen to Jesus words and not any man:

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

As long as you keep rejecting the physical resurrection and Lordship of Jesus, you will not even SEE never mind go near the kingdom of God

We are all either true Christians or false Christians....Jesus indicates in Matt 7:21-23 that we will not know until the judgment if we have qualified to be recognised as one of his own. Be careful of misplaced confidence. (1 Cor 10:12)

Well I know I am a true Christian for I believe Jesus physically rose from the dead! I know I am born again and will SEE the kingdom as well as be in it. I know that Jesus death paid my entire sin debt before my Father in heaven. Sorry about the Watchtower who teaches you to not accept these things essential for life!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I already explained that to you--small g god is not calling that one God. 2 Cor 4:4 proves it.

And you are listening to men. the original manuscripts did not have caps and small letters. Jesus is just as much Divine in nature as My Father in heaven. but The Father is above Jesus in authority! That is why He is THE GOD while Jesus is still god. They are equal in essence but different in authority.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is just as much Divine in nature as My Father in heaven.

Except for the being created and dying part.

 

[RR144]

Jesus is just as much Divine in nature as My Father in heaven. but The Father is above Jesus in authority! That is why He is THE GOD while Jesus is still god.

True, since His resurrection and ascension to heaven, Jesus is now divine, meaning He shares the same nature as the Heavenly Father, but the Father will always be above the Son.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Maybe you should read what Jesus said about His resurrected body in Luke 24:39!

I have read it, many times but it means something entirely different to me than it does to you.
"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you see that I have.”

Why did Jesus need to say this? Why would they have thought him a spirit? And why would this have disturbed them? There was no teaching of an immortal soul in Jewish scripture.

Jehovah's law forbade communication with spirits, (Deut 18:9-12) which is why from the time of the flood, only faithful angels could materialize to bring messages from God to his earthly servants. They had bodies of 'flesh and bone' but they were not humans born of women. They ate and drank as any other human would have, but when their mission was finished, they returned to the spirit realm, where God resides and where they serve him.

Jesus was raised as a spirit and as such could also materialize bodies of flesh and bone. He remained on earth for 40 days after his resurrection, but he did not stay with his apostles during that time as he had done for the previous three and a half years....the Bible says he "appeared" to them. This only makes sense if Jesus was a spirit......and added to that was the fact that many did not recognize him. On occasion he would "appear" among them and then "disappear" before their eyes, adding to the fact that he was not in human form, but could appear as such, as other spirit creatures before him had done. He sometimes appeared with wounds, but at other times no wounds were mentioned. Jesus was in shocking physical condition when he died, having been flogged with a "flagellum" and oftentimes the leather thongs were weighted with jagged pieces of bone or metal to make the blows more painful....tearing open the flesh.

Ask yourself if God had resurrected his son, would he have raised him in the pitiful state in which he died, or would he have been raised, healed, like others raised form the dead?

Yes it does have to be whatever body was laid down. If it is different it is ot a sanding up again, but simply a standing up. the entire world except those indoctrinated by the Watchtower recognized resurrecting one from the dead means a bodily resurrection.

Where is it written that Jesus took back the body he sacrificed? That would make it null and void.....if Jesus took back the same body, where is the sacrifice? The Bible clearly states that he was "raised in the spirit".....not in the flesh.

Even if you accept something that the WT doesn't teach and are disfellowshipped or censured, and later they teach the very thing you accepted- you still are disfellowshipped for moving ahead of the Organization!

This is nonsense. No one is disfellowshipped or censured for anything, unless they try to teach what is contrary to our understanding of the scriptures and wants to cause division in the congregation...it is one of the things Jehovah hates..."A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.".....so lying and spreading discord among your brothers is out of line with the way God does things.

He dispenses truth via his "faithful and discreet slave" who alone is charged with the responsibility of "feeding" Christ's entire household of fellow slaves, their "food at the proper time" (Matthew 24:45).....so not just "what" food is dispensed, but "when" it is the right time to share it.
As the apostle John said....“If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.” (2 John 10, 11)

Well I know I am a true Christian for I believe Jesus physically rose from the dead! I know I am born again and will SEE the kingdom as well as be in it. I know that Jesus death paid my entire sin debt before my Father in heaven.

That is what the "many" will say to Christ at the coming judgment....they are so sure of their good standing...but "I never knew you" is an awful rejection.

What do you think being "born again" means? How is one 'born of water and spirit'?

Sorry about the Watchtower who teaches you to not accept these things essential for life!

Please reserve your pity.....you may need it for yourself. I can see that it is you who adheres to a 'list' that according to your understanding, the Bible does not support.
We will all know for sure one way or the other, in the not too distant future....won't we?

 

[Keiw]

And you are listening to men. the original manuscripts did not have caps and small letters. Jesus is just as much Divine in nature as My Father in heaven. but The Father is above Jesus in authority! That is why He is THE GOD while Jesus is still god. They are equal in essence but different in authority.

So then you are saying a capitol G God in the last line at John 1:1 = error?= And is a misleading deception by satan.

 

[Wrangler]

So then you are saying a capitol G God in the last line at John 1:1 = error?=

Sure! What significance to you place on capitalization? And for that matter, what does the word "god" mean to you?

One of the most indefensible deceptions in Christendom from the perspective of Scripture is the notion that there is only one god. If this were true, YHWH would not have made the 1C - you shall have no other gods before me. Implied is the existence of and acknowledgement of other gods. The only logical conclusion is that other gods exist. That is, they are real and not false gods in that context.

Furthermore, in the NT, it is stated that Satan in the god of this world. Again, there is no implication that Satan is an unreal ore a false god. IF that were the case, the word "false" would be in that verse.

Both of these examples of the word 'god' must be using a different sense of the word than Jesus does in John 17:3, where he says to our Father that he - the Father - is the only true god. In fact, I am not sure if there is any other reference to a dichotomy in all of Scripture between real (true) and fake (false) gods. Here, Jesus must use the term to refer to the Supreme Being, the Creator of the universe. Compare to Isaiah 44:6 besides me there is no God. This implies the dichotomy of existence or non-existence (not true or false).

And I reject the suggestion that the use of capitalization trumps such context.

I recall a movie starring Alec Baldwin who played a surgeon. In the trailer, he said he was a god. And I've heard many professional athletes described as gods of their respective sports. So, at long last, after overcoming much stubbornness, let's consult our favorite lexicon that may not be motivated by religious dogma but merely recording word usage. From Definition of GOD

god​

1 of 2​

noun​

ˈgäd also ˈgȯd​

plural gods​

Synonyms of god​

1​

God : the supreme or ultimate reality: such as​

a​

: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped (as in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism) as creator and ruler of the universe​

Throughout the patristic and medieval periods, Christian theologians taught that God created the universe …​

—Jame Schaefer​

… the Supreme Being or God, the personal form of the Ultimate Reality, is conceived by Hindus as having various aspects.​

—Sunita Pant Bansal​

b​

Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind​

2​

or less commonly God : a being or object that is worshipped as having more than natural attributes and powers​

specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality​

Greek gods of love and war​

3​

: a person or thing of supreme value​

had photos of baseball's gods pinned to his bedroom wall​

4​

: a powerful ruler​

Hollywood gods that control our movies' fates​

god​

2 of 2​

verb​

godded; godding​

transitive verb​

: to treat as a god : IDOLIZE, DEIFY​

This lexicon presents each sense in the chronological order in which it was used. Notice the use of capitalization in sense 2, which is NOT referring to the Supreme Being? Roger Federer was said to be the God of the tennis world. This is not only a proper use of the word "god" but also the proper use of the capitalized form of the word.

Jesus was never a God in the 4th sense of the word but certainly in other senses he was. Yet, in his 2nd coming, he will be a God in this 4th sense.

And this brings us back to the notion of a word being a god or simply god. I struggle to accept the 1st sense of the definition as being anything other than a being. However, an honest analysis of this first sense must admit the "ultimate reality" is not limited to the Supreme Being but his edicts, his words.

And this is reinforced with sense 3 of the definition. It explicitly applies to things other than a person. What could be more appropriate to deem a thing of "supreme value" than the work product of a person of supreme value? The record of athletic competition comes to mind. The edicts of political leaders come to mind.

And of course, anything associated with the Supreme Being comes to mind. This includes his words, his messengers, and his creation. This is why I love Psalm 19. It captures this esteem so well.
The heavens proclaim the glory of God.
The skies display his craftsmanship.
2 Day after day they continue to speak;
night after night they make him known.

Wow! This tells us that gods are not known merely by their being but in their mighty work product. It is true for all gods. Indeed, they would not be a god if their glory could not be seen in their work. And the Supreme Being's words are certainly to be included in his works as Ps 19:7 informs us so eloquently.

And is a misleading deception by satan.

Unclear. Men are very deceptive on their own accord. Also, men are so wise, they confuse themselves with such word play as we have delved into. This explains why Native Americans said the White man talks with a forked tongue. Intrigue makes honest communication a challenge even when one wants to honestly communicate.

One more point before I forget. A similar analysis can be made for the charged word "lord." Both 'god' and 'lord' refer to dominance. And there are many who dominate throughout history. This explains why there are dozens of lords in Scripture, written over 17 centuries where different men dominated, became lords and gods of their domain.

 

[Keiw]

Sure! What significance to you place on capitalization? And for that matter, what does the word "god" mean to you?

One of the most indefensible deceptions in Christendom from the perspective of Scripture is the notion that there is only one god. If this were true, YHWH would not have made the 1C - you shall have no other gods before me. Implied is the existence of and acknowledgement of other gods. The only logical conclusion is that other gods exist. That is, they are real and not false gods in that context.

Furthermore, in the NT, it is stated that Satan in the god of this world. Again, there is no implication that Satan is an unreal ore a false god. IF that were the case, the word "false" would be in that verse.

Both of these examples of the word 'god' must be using a different sense of the word than Jesus does in John 17:3, where he says to our Father that he - the Father - is the only true god. In fact, I am not sure if there is any other reference to a dichotomy in all of Scripture between real (true) and fake (false) gods. Here, Jesus must use the term to refer to the Supreme Being, the Creator of the universe. Compare to Isaiah 44:6 besides me there is no God. This implies the dichotomy of existence or non-existence (not true or false).

And I reject the suggestion that the use of capitalization trumps such context.

I recall a movie starring Alec Baldwin who played a surgeon. In the trailer, he said he was a god. And I've heard many professional athletes described as gods of their respective sports. So, at long last, after overcoming much stubbornness, let's consult our favorite lexicon that may not be motivated by religious dogma but merely recording word usage. From Definition of GOD

god​

1 of 2​

noun​

ˈgäd also ˈgȯd​

plural gods​

Synonyms of god​

1​

God : the supreme or ultimate reality: such as​

a​

: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped (as in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism) as creator and ruler of the universe​

Throughout the patristic and medieval periods, Christian theologians taught that God created the universe …​

—Jame Schaefer​

… the Supreme Being or God, the personal form of the Ultimate Reality, is conceived by Hindus as having various aspects.​

—Sunita Pant Bansal​

b​

Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind​

2​

or less commonly God : a being or object that is worshipped as having more than natural attributes and powers​

specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality​

Greek gods of love and war​

3​

: a person or thing of supreme value​

had photos of baseball's gods pinned to his bedroom wall​

4​

: a powerful ruler​

Hollywood gods that control our movies' fates​

god​

2 of 2​

verb​

godded; godding​

transitive verb​

: to treat as a god : IDOLIZE, DEIFY​

This lexicon presents each sense in the chronological order in which it was used. Notice the use of capitalization in sense 2, which is NOT referring to the Supreme Being? Roger Federer was said to be the God of the tennis world. This is not only a proper use of the word "god" but also the proper use of the capitalized form of the word.

Jesus was never a God in the 4th sense of the word but certainly in other senses he was. Yet, in his 2nd coming, he will be a God in this 4th sense.

And this brings us back to the notion of a word being a god or simply god. I struggle to accept the 1st sense of the definition as being anything other than a being. However, an honest analysis of this first sense must admit the "ultimate reality" is not limited to the Supreme Being but his edicts, his words.

And this is reinforced with sense 3 of the definition. It explicitly applies to things other than a person. What could be more appropriate to deem a thing of "supreme value" than the work product of a person of supreme value? The record of athletic competition comes to mind. The edicts of political leaders come to mind.

And of course, anything associated with the Supreme Being comes to mind. This includes his words, his messengers, and his creation. This is why I love Psalm 19. It captures this esteem so well.
The heavens proclaim the glory of God.
The skies display his craftsmanship.
2 Day after day they continue to speak;
night after night they make him known.

Wow! This tells us that gods are not known merely by their being but in their mighty work product. It is true for all gods. Indeed, they would not be a god if their glory could not be seen in their work. And the Supreme Being's words are certainly to be included in his works as Ps 19:7 informs us so eloquently.



Unclear. Men are very deceptive on their own accord. Also, men are so wise, they confuse themselves with such word play as we have delved into. This explains why Native Americans said the White man talks with a forked tongue. Intrigue makes honest communication a challenge even when one wants to honestly communicate.

One more point before I forget. A similar analysis can be made for the charged word "lord." Both 'god' and 'lord' refer to dominance. And there are many who dominate throughout history. This explains why there are dozens of lords in Scripture, written over 17 centuries where different men dominated, became lords and gods of their domain.

Small g god= has godlike qualities. Jesus is never God--When the ride of the white horse is complete-1Cor 15:24-28 occurs. Jesus subjects himself to his God and Father= forever.

 

[Wrangler]

Small g god= has godlike qualities. Jesus is never God--When the ride of the white horse is complete-1Cor 15:24-28 occurs. Jesus subjects himself to his God and Father= forever.

Agreed on theology. Semantics is more complicated.

We have to admit that not being in an academic setting, people may inappropriately use capitalization. Then they double down in applying special meaning to their use of said capitalization.

I’m somewhat guilty of this myself when it comes to debating our atheist friends. They called me out for my use of capital-Atheist, which I did after reading Atheism on Trial.

A tactic in vogue by atheists today is to presume they do not have any burden whatsoever by denying the existence of god. Although they are atheists, when pressured, their fall back position is to pretend to be agnostics; claiming they merely ‘don’t know.’ Such an ideological approach is referred to in Atheism on Trial is to call them Atheists.

This reinforces their true position and does not let them off the hook as Christians have done for centuries. Atheism is indefensible and I have highlighted this to them by pointing out that I do not have enough faith to be an Atheist.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

True, since His resurrection and ascension to heaven, Jesus is now divine, meaning He shares the same nature as the Heavenly Father, but the Father will always be above the Son.

He has always been divine! He did not stop being god when He took on flesh, just emptied HImself of many things.

People do not walk on water, take 5 loaves and 2 fish and feed close to 20,000, nor raise people from the dead, or take water and turn it to wine.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have read it, many times but it means something entirely different to me than it does to you.
"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you see that I have.”

Why did Jesus need to say this? Why would they have thought him a spirit? And why would this have disturbed them? There was no teaching of an immortal soul in Jewish scripture.

Yes they believed in an immortal soul!
And why did Jesus say this? Because He wanted thetm to see He physically rose from the dead. The normal saying people use is flesh and blood, but Jesus used flesh and bone! Why do you suppose He intentionally said it that particular way!

Jesus was raised as a spirit and as such could also materialize bodies of flesh and bone. He remained on earth for 40 days after his resurrection, but he did not stay with his apostles during that time as he had done for the previous three and a half years....the Bible says he "appeared" to them. This only makes sense if Jesus was a spirit......and added to that was the fact that many did not recognize him. On occasion he would "appear" among them and then "disappear" before their eyes, adding to the fact that he was not in human form, but could appear as such, as other spirit creatures before him had done. He sometimes appeared with wounds, but at other times no wounds were mentioned. Jesus was in shocking physical condition when he died, having been flogged with a "flagellum" and oftentimes the leather thongs were weighted with jagged pieces of bone or metal to make the blows more painful....tearing open the flesh.

Ask yourself if God had resurrected his son, would he have raised him in the pitiful state in which he died, or would he have been raised, healed, like others raised form the dead?

No where in Scripture does it say Jesus "materialized bodies as He needed them

Appeared? Now you are simply playing word games to try to support a false doctrine. Jesus physically rose as the word means!

Now you are making a fuss about teh wounds which is a tempest in a teapot.

Where is it written that Jesus took back the body he sacrificed? That would make it null and void.....if Jesus took back the same body, where is the sacrifice? The Bible clearly states that he was "raised in the spirit".....not in the flesh.

No because it is the blood that is required for the removal of sins as it is written. That is why Jesus said to Thomas "flesh and bones". As the first fruit of the resurrection He modelled the body all believers will have in both heaven and earth. Remember Paul said this corruption must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality.

This is nonsense. No one is disfellowshipped or censured for anything, unless they try to teach what is contrary to our understanding of the scriptures and wants to cause division in the congregation...it is one of the things Jehovah hates..."A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.".....so lying and spreading discord among your brothers is out of line with the way God does things.

He dispenses truth via his "faithful and discreet slave" who alone is charged with the responsibility of "feeding" Christ's entire household of fellow slaves, their "food at the proper time" (Matthew 24:45).....so not just "what" food is dispensed, but "when" it is the right time to share it.
As the apostle John said....“If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.” (2 John 10, 11)

So why do you cuddle with teh Watchtower. they do not bring the teachings of JOhm, Peter, Paul or Jesus in the critical areas.

Anything that redefines and/or contradicts Scripture must be rejected at all costs! and that supposed "faithful and discreet slave" has done so numerous times!

People are disfellowshipped if they are caught quietly celebrating christmas! People are disfellowshipped for accepting the bible as written and not reinterpreted by the faithful and discreet slave! Look up in the archives of the Watchtower if you do not believe me! the Watchtower has reserved for itself like the roman church did to interpret the bible as they see fit.

And Just as Romanism, they said to contradict them is grounds for removal and they only as the organization have the right to understand the bible and feed it to the people. The WT took the most evil parts of Rome during the dark ages and use them for their own leaders.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So then you are saying a capitol G God in the last line at John 1:1 = error?= And is a misleading deception by satan.

I never said that! "and the Word was God" is correct. When eh definite article appears it is describing a specific entity. when God appears as an anarthrous when referring to the true triune god, it is referring to their essence or nature.

 

[Keiw]

I never said that! "and the Word was God" is correct. When eh definite article appears it is describing a specific entity. when God appears as an anarthrous when referring to the true triune god, it is referring to their essence or nature.

Twisted analogy. Israel-NEVER served a trinity=100% fact of life, while serving the true God. Because he is not a trinity.