A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

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Wrangler

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none of them can claim to be "Christian" if they are doing what Christ commanded them NOT to do.....are you getting this yet? or is your patriotism getting in the way....?
BS. There are Christian nations. Fact. This is true even if they don’t always follow Christ’s command as you put it.

Saying so as an Appeal to Strawman. Christ only issued individual commands, not edicts on foreign policy (which includes war).

Is my patriotism getting in the way? When it comes to politics, patriotism is the way.
 
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Dropship

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You have no idea of the number of beliefs and practices held in the divided churches of Christendom that have their origins in paganism. You were taught by your own teachers that these were legit......
.....Jesus himself appointed teachers.....I wonder why....? Could it be that without teachers to guide the flock, people would just believe whatever they wished. ......There is no such thing as “non-denominationalism” because that is just a convenient excuse to hold whatever beliefs you want....

1- Christmas celebrates Jesus's birth, and Easter celebrates his resurrection, yet you JW's don't celebrate either of them because you think they have pagan roots. Look at it another way, they completely stamp out and over-ride any pagan beliefs..:)
2- Jesus's teachings were so beautifully simple that anybody could understand them, and the 'teachers' simply went out to pass them on to the people..:)
3- We non-denoms are not shackled to the 'chain gangs' of any churches and are therefore free to follow Jesus's pure teachings without hindrance..:)

 

Dropship

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Well that does not really answer my question. I don't think it is that humans flip flop but why. For instance, in the face of being sealed by the Holy Spirit, do you suppose an Atheist ought to continue to deny the existence of a God so he is not accused of flip flopping?
It takes humility, courage and maturity to publicly admit you've changed your position on a topic.

I'm not sure I understand your point mate, so I can't answer it.
What have atheists got to do with anything?
And Christianity is pure and easy to understand so why would anybody suddenly want to change their mind about anything in it?
 

Dropship

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As has been mentioned several times already, we are progressive in our beliefs, not regressive.
...The Greek word used to describe the instrument that was used to put Christ to death was a “stauros” which does not mean a “cross”, it means a single pole or upright stake.

If the JW's are 'progressive', they might keep changing their minds over and over again in the future (flip-flopping)..:)

The "stake" belief can easily be debunked..:)-
WIKI- "Often, the vertical upright stake (Greek "stauros") of the cross would be left permanently in place at a recognised execution site (eg Calvary) and criminals were made to carry the crossbeam (the stipes) there, where it was lashed to the stake to form a cross"

If (as the JW's suppose) a man was nailed to a stake with his arms above his head, it could have taken days for him to die of thirst and hunger just hanging there, but if he was nailed to a cross the cause of death was asphyxiation because the condemned would have severe difficulty inhaling, due to hyper-expansion of the chest muscles and lungs."
That's why the Romans broke the legs of victims to prevent them pushing up to relieve the weight on their outstretched arms.
 
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Wrangler

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I'm not sure I understand your point mate, so I can't answer it.
What have atheists got to do with anything?
And Christianity is pure and easy to understand so why would anybody suddenly want to change their mind about anything in it?
LOL. My point is obvious. You are criticizing a denomination for changing their mind on some things. I'm proposing that characteristic in a favorable light.

God himself changed his mind. There was a time he was going to wipe out the Nation of Israel. Moses changed his mind. Any criticism you want to levy there or is changing one's mind sometimes OK?
 
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ElieG12

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(...) We non-denoms are not shackled to the 'chain gangs' of any churches and are therefore free to follow Jesus's pure teachings without hindrance..:)
(...)
You don't follow the biblical model:

... elders, overseer, teachers and students, congregations and local meetings, travelling representatives, central body of decision makers, organized preaching campaigns and study material, church funds and caring for each other, baptisms, and the many other features associated with an organized religion.

It means: you ARE NOT Christians in the biblical sense.

God has a people today ... Look for it (Is. 2:2-4) or do not pretend.
 
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Aunty Jane

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There is quite a bit to get through here, so please bear with me....I will be as concise as I can....but you know me.... :hmhehm
sorry, you missed the point of Jesus telling his disciples to buy swords. It wasn’t ceremonial.
It was to fulfill prophesy as you have been shown.... and Jesus rebuked Peter for using a sword that should never have been taken out of its sheath. What did Jesus tell Peter?
“Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than 12 legions of angels?(Matthew 26:52-53)
Of course Jesus was advocated violence towards our enemies!

What was that incident if flipping over tables and whipping everyone out of there? Another great example of Christ not merely advocating but initiating violence towards our enemies.
Sorry, you are confusing the actions of one authorized by God to carry out his will, with those whom Jesus taught to be “peacemakers”.
Did Jesus as “the son of God” have a right to be angry at what was taking place at his Father’s house of worship? These greedy men were extorting money from their fellow Jews in selling sacrificial animals right there in the temple for a profit. He turned over the tables and scattered their ill gotten gains all over the floor making them grovel to retrieve their mammon, whilst he made a whip if ropes to drive out the livestock. Was it violence carried out for political reasons...was there bloodshed?....or was he justified as God’s representative to show these men what God thought of them, turning his Father's house into "a den of thieves"?
In Revelation, he returns not to chit chat with our enemies or offend them using pronouns they don’t use. He came to wipe out the largest army of all time.
Again who is carrying out the will of God? Jesus comes with his angels to deal with God’s enemies....no humans are fighting here.
The feminized idea that Jesus was a non-violent pacifist bears no resemblance to the Jesus in Scripture who conquers the largest Army ever, Satan and death itself
Jesus was not a pacifist and we do not teach that he was....the Jesus who comes in the name of his Father to cleanse the earth of all who oppose him and his incoming Kingdom, is sanctioned by God to eliminate his enemies. Just as Israel was sanctioned by God to carry out their battles with enemies who wanted to conquer the land gifted exclusively to Israel.....by the one who owns every inch of this earth that he created.
1st, just because a real phenomena is not explicitly mentioned in Scripture does not mean it does not exist. Strep throat, PTSD, the city of Cleveland and quantum physics are not in Scripture, yet exist.
You speak of strawmen do you...?
2nd, diaspora Jews who did not even speak Hebrew, the Greek speaking Jews demonstrate cultural appropriation in the scriptures.
What caused the diaspora Wrangler? Why were the Jews living in lands outside of the one Israel lost due to their constant disobedience? Do you know what the “Gentile Times” are and what that meant for Israel and also for the Christians right down to the present day? This is important, but no one seems to appreciate what it meant.

Speaking the local language is hardly cultural appropriation. It’s hard to live in a country where you don’t speak the language. Can we ask who it was that invented language in the first place, and why it was that different languages came to exist? (Genesis 11:1-9)

When Christ walked the earth, Jews from other lands and languages came to Jerusalem for their festivals....but Jesus’ disciples only spoke either Hebrew or the common language of the day, Koine Greek. After Jesus’ ascension, the holy spirit granted these disciples the ability to speak languages that they had never learned in order to teach these ones the truth in a language that meant something to them.....it spoke to their heart.
When these ones returned home, they would spread the word to their own people in their own language.

3rd, another example of ‘cultural appropriation" in the scriptures is one of the biggest conflicts of the earliest church. The idea that Jewish Christian’s were demanding Gentile Christian’s be circumcised is all about cultural appropriation.
And what was the outcome? The answer was NO!
The crusades were a defensive ear as the book and the data based graph demonstrate.
The crusades were nothing more than a war over territory that is still disputed to this day. The three 'Abrahamic' faiths fight over this piece of dirt.
Is the “holy land” still “holy” to God with all the blood spilled in his name by those who don’t even know him? The nation of Israel today is a political one not a spiritual one. Many of today’s “Jews” are atheists.
She spills blood like all the rest and allies herself with nations whose worship she despises.....she and her leaders still reject Jesus as Messiah, just like her disobedient ancient counterpart. God has long abandoned literal Israel. (Matt 23:37-39)
 

Aunty Jane

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My Bible states in the introduction to Joshua the Conquest of Cana. This is EXACTLY using God as an excuse to steal someone else's territory, and then claim a victory for God when they won. And there are many other such stories!
Oh c’mon Wrangler.....the “Promised Land” was called such because God “promised” it to Israel long before they actually got there. Taken up by the Canaanites who were the most depraved people in existence at the time, Israel was warned that the eviction of these people had to be complete....which meant leaving no trace of their practices behind. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) Was that carried out? Did Israel end up adopting the ways of the Canaanites? History and the Bible show that Israel was led into some very disgusting practices.
There is so much conquering and blood shed, in God’s name, ordered by God, one cannot miss it! You must be willfully ignorant - even if the term is not in Scripture.
And it seems as if you missed the point even though you just mentioned it....”ordered by God”.... = “sanctioned by God”. We as Christians are NOT sanctioned by God to fight in wars of the nations. When Jesus walked the earth, Israel had no army. Why? Because their territory was occupied by Gentile powers from Babylon down to Rome, who ruled when Jesus preached his message of peace. Jesus never advocated violence against Rome or its government, even though many were chafing under Roman domination. There was a reason why he did not call on those 12 legions of angels to put an end to Israel’s oppression....the “Gentile Times” had not yet run their course.

At Luke 21:24...in foretelling the end of the Jewish system, and by prophetic type, the end of our world system as well, Jesus said.....
"And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations (the Gentile Times) are fulfilled.”

When were those “times” of Gentile domination of Israel to end? Not until Christ was to return. They are still running.

As for an Israelite joining the Roman army....any Israelite who worked for the Romans was despised...like tax collectors. Matthew was a tax collector, but Jesus saw something in him that went beyond his flawed profession. Neither the Jews nor any genuine Christians would support a pagan ruler by joining their military.
Sodom and Gomorrah were two cities blasted out of existence by missiles from heaven. And except for 8 people, God wiped out everyone on Earth.
Yep..."God wiped" out of existence the two cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as the inhabitants of the whole earth in Noah's day.
God has the authority over life and death as Creator.....God gives life and he can take it away.....he grants permission for current governments to keep a measure of order so that the preaching Jesus commissioned would be completed right to "the end" of these last days. (Matt 24:14)
God himself has the title of LORD of Heaven’s Armies. Again, this is not ceremonial. Who is our Father? Who are we supposed to emulate? The conquering LORD of Heaven’s Armies, that’s who.
No sorry...we are to emulate Christ, who whilst he was in human flesh, never advocated violence against our enemies in any way. (Matt 5:43-44)
We also have Paul's words which I reiterate....
Romans 12:17-21....
"Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good."

You have to do a lot of tap dancing to deny what is said here.
Yes. There are good guys in every conflict.
No...there are only those who have been convinced that they are "good guys".....you will find them on both sides of any conflict....because they believe their own propaganda. Does God consider them "good guys"?....that is the question.

Again, read the Conquest of Cana in Joshua. Fact is, you can have God's sanction to fight a war over land that you stole from someone else
They did not steal it.....God gave it to them...remember? The interlopers had no rights to it.
There are Christian nations. Fact. This is true even if they don’t always follow Christ’s command as you put it.
No sorry...there are only nations who "think" that they are "Christians". Big difference. You can call yourself whatever you like, but unless you are "doing the will of the Father" in reality (not just in your imagination) rather than allowing your government to tell you to do what God condemns, (like shedding blood in political wars.....Isa 1:15) it means that Jesus will reject you. (Matt 7:21-23)
Christ only issued individual commands, not edicts on foreign policy (which includes war).

Is my patriotism getting in the way? When it comes to politics, patriotism is the way.
Nuff said.....your position is clear. May you and your patriotism lead you to where you want to go.....:ummm:
 

Dropship

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You don't follow the biblical model:
... elders, overseer, teachers and students, congregations and local meetings, travelling representatives, central body of decision makers, organized preaching campaigns and study material, church funds and caring for each other, baptisms, and the many other features associated with an organized religion.
It means: you ARE NOT Christians in the biblical sense.
God has a people today ... Look for it (Is. 2:2-4) or do not pretend.

Ah, but the beliefs of most organised "christian" religions and cults are bizarre, odd and weird, and not my cup of tea, right Oddball?-

"Er...yeah man, like what you said"..:)
oddball-kellys.jpg
 

Aunty Jane

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1- Christmas celebrates Jesus's birth, and Easter celebrates his resurrection, yet you JW's don't celebrate either of them because you think they have pagan roots.
We don't "think" they do...we "know" they do.
M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia says: “The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of NT origin. The day of Christ’s birth cannot be ascertained from the NT, or, indeed, from any other source.”

The Encyclopedia Americana informs us: “The reason for establishing December 25 as Christmas is somewhat obscure, but it is usually held that the day was chosen to correspond to pagan festivals that took place around the time of the winter solstice, when the days begin to lengthen, to celebrate the ‘rebirth of the sun.’ . . . The Roman Saturnalia (a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of agriculture, and to the renewed power of the sun), also took place at this time, and some Christmas customs are thought to be rooted in this ancient pagan celebration.”

The New Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges: “The date of Christ’s birth is not known. The Gospels indicate neither the day nor the month".

What is accepted by most scholars is that the birth of Christ was assigned the date of the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar, January 6 in the Egyptian), because on this day, as the sun began its return to northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra celebrated the dies natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the invincible sun). On Dec. 25, 274, Aurelian had proclaimed the sun-god principal patron of the empire and dedicated a temple to him in the Campus Martius. Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the sun was particularly strong at Rome.
Roman Catholicism has so many sun symbols connected to their worship.

No one knows the date of Jesus' birth because Jews did not celebrate birthdays.

Easter is even worse, since they didn't even change the name of the goddess that was honored by the pagans at that time of year...the Spring equinox in the Northern Hemisphere.

The Encyclopædia Britannica comments: “There is no indication of the observance of the Easter festival in the New Testament, or in the writings of the apostolic Fathers. The sanctity of special times was an idea absent from the minds of the first Christians.”

The Catholic Encyclopedia admits: A great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter. The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring. . . . The rabbit is a pagan symbol and has always been an emblem of fertility.”

Eph 5:10-11....“Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; and quit sharing with them in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness, but, rather, even be reproving them.”

2 Cor 6:14-18...
". . . .what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹlial? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? . . . ‘“Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,” says the Lord, “and quit touching the unclean thing”’

Look at it another way, they completely stamp out and over-ride any pagan beliefs..:)
Nonsense....it never 'Christianized' the paganism.....but 'paganized' the Christianity. But if you want to keep those things, that is entirely up to you. You will never be able to tell the judge that nobody told you.
2- Jesus's teachings were so beautifully simple that anybody could understand them, and the 'teachers' simply went out to pass them on to the people..:)
So please tell me why so much was added to that simplicity to make it into something so complicated that Christendom demands that you have a theological degree in order to learn all the things they added over the centuries. None of Christ's 12 apostles were educated at the Rabbinical Schools.....neither was Jesus.
3- We non-denoms are not shackled to the 'chain gangs' of any churches and are therefore free to follow Jesus's pure teachings without hindrance..:)
You are as shackled as all the rest if you subscribe to their core beliefs.....you are just better at kidding yourselves that it doesn't matter. What if it matters to God?
Christianity is pure and easy to understand so why would anybody suddenly want to change their mind about anything in it?
No one "suddenly" changed their mind about anything. Satan has always had time up his sleeve, so he introduced his deceptions gradually, over centuries of time. (ever hear about the frig in the pot?) It took almost 400 years to finally get approval for the trinity to become official "church" doctrine....but that was a battle fought over many years.
Immortality of the soul and hellfire were introduced from paganism to scare people into submission. The church forbade anyone to read the Bible, so for about 1500 years, the ignorant masses did as they were told....or else.
If the JW's are 'progressive', they might keep changing their minds over and over again in the future (flip-flopping)..:)
I would rather change my view a hundred times and arrive at the truth, than be stuck in the same hole for centuries and be dead wrong.
The "stake" belief can easily be debunked..:)-
WIKI- "Often, the vertical upright stake (Greek "stauros") of the cross would be left permanently in place at a recognised execution site (eg Calvary) and criminals were made to carry the crossbeam (the stipes) there, where it was lashed to the stake to form a cross"
Again, it is not the configuration of the execution stake that is of any significance.....the cross was a religious symbol long before Christ walked the earth.
According to the Encyclopædia Britannica.....“Various objects, dating from periods long anterior to the Christian era, have been found, marked with crosses of different designs, in almost every part of the old world. India, Syria, Persia and Egypt have all yielded numberless examples . . . The use of the cross as a religious symbol in pre-Christian times and among non-Christian peoples may probably be regarded as almost universal, and in very many cases it was connected with some form of nature worship.”

The cross is not a holy thing to God....it was a murder weapon. If your child was killed with a gun, would you hang a replica if it around your neck or decorate your house with it?
If (as the JW's suppose) a man was nailed to a stake with his arms above his head, it could have taken days for him to die of thirst and hunger just hanging there, but if he was nailed to a cross the cause of death was asphyxiation because the condemned would have severe difficulty inhaling, due to hyper-expansion of the chest muscles and lungs."
That's why the Romans broke the legs of victims to prevent them pushing up to relieve the weight on their outstretched arms.
Not according to my research. Even with the arms above the head, without the footrests to push up their body to breathe, suffocation would likewise have caused a slow and agonizing death. That is why they broke the legs. The position of the arms determines where the full body weight was carried on the point where the nails were driven into the flesh. Outstretched, the body weight would have torn through the tendons with ease. Above the head would have carried the weight. But the nails may have been driven through the stronger tendons of the wrist.

1672899186773.png

Single pole executions happened in ancient times.....why does it need to be a cross? And what does it matter the configuration?

1672899656970.png 1672899555734.png

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The representation of Christ’s redemptive death on Golgotha does not occur in the symbolic art of the first Christian centuries. The early Christians, influenced by the Old Testament prohibition of graven images, were reluctant to depict even the instrument of the Lord’s Passion.”

There were to be no images used in worship.....remember? "No image of anything".
 

Dropship

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M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia says: “The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of NT origin. The day of Christ’s birth cannot be ascertained from the NT, or, indeed, from any other source.”
Easter is even worse, since they didn't even change the name of the goddess that was honored by the pagans at that time of year...the Spring equinox in the Northern Hemisphere.

So please tell me why so much was added to that simplicity to make it into something so complicated that Christendom demands that you have a theological degree in order to learn all the things they added over the centuries. None of Christ's 12 apostles were educated at the Rabbinical Schools.....neither was Jesus.

Immortality of the soul and hellfire were introduced from paganism to scare people into submission.

Even with the arms above the head, without the footrests to push up their body to breathe, suffocation would likewise have caused a slow and agonizing death. That is why they broke the legs.

There were to be no images used in worship.....remember? "No image of anything".

1- if you JW's don't want to celebrate Christmas and Easter because you think those dates are pagan, why don't you simply choose other dates to celebrate on?.. :p

2- I agree with you, Jesus is so simple to understand that nobody needs a theological college degree to understand him..:)

3- Jesus spoke of immortality and hellfire so if you don't believe him you'd better argue it out with him when you meet him..:)

4- Hanging by the arms above the head supporting the full weight of the body would be uncomfortable but wouldn't cause suffocation.
But being nailed to a cross with arms outstretched wouldn't cause suffocation until the legs were broken.
From the net-
"Crucifixion...The breaking of the legs hastened death by bringing on asphyxiation rapidly....But the real manner of death was to stretch out the arms of the man on the cross and have the weight of his body drag him down. This weakened the muscles of the arms and chest and breathing became shallower.
...For a while a person could push up with his legs and take some of the weight off the arms and chest, which would prolong life and lead to deeper breathing.
...To break the legs removed the option of alleviating the arms and chest and death came much sooner.

...As for Jesus, his legs were not broken because he had already died."

5- When the first gospels were written, nobody from the priests, the Romans or the people ever came forward to say "Baloney, the gospels are wrong, Jesus was hung on a stake not a cross"

6- Early Christians used the fish as a symbol or image..:)

christian-fish.jpg
 
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RLT63

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We don't "think" they do...we "know" they do.
M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia says: “The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of NT origin. The day of Christ’s birth cannot be ascertained from the NT, or, indeed, from any other source.”

The Encyclopedia Americana informs us: “The reason for establishing December 25 as Christmas is somewhat obscure, but it is usually held that the day was chosen to correspond to pagan festivals that took place around the time of the winter solstice, when the days begin to lengthen, to celebrate the ‘rebirth of the sun.’ . . . The Roman Saturnalia (a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of agriculture, and to the renewed power of the sun), also took place at this time, and some Christmas customs are thought to be rooted in this ancient pagan celebration.”

The New Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges: “The date of Christ’s birth is not known. The Gospels indicate neither the day nor the month".

What is accepted by most scholars is that the birth of Christ was assigned the date of the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar, January 6 in the Egyptian), because on this day, as the sun began its return to northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra celebrated the dies natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the invincible sun). On Dec. 25, 274, Aurelian had proclaimed the sun-god principal patron of the empire and dedicated a temple to him in the Campus Martius. Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the sun was particularly strong at Rome.
Roman Catholicism has so many sun symbols connected to their worship.

No one knows the date of Jesus' birth because Jews did not celebrate birthdays.

Easter is even worse, since they didn't even change the name of the goddess that was honored by the pagans at that time of year...the Spring equinox in the Northern Hemisphere.

The Encyclopædia Britannica comments: “There is no indication of the observance of the Easter festival in the New Testament, or in the writings of the apostolic Fathers. The sanctity of special times was an idea absent from the minds of the first Christians.”

The Catholic Encyclopedia admits: A great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter. The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring. . . . The rabbit is a pagan symbol and has always been an emblem of fertility.”

Eph 5:10-11....“Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; and quit sharing with them in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness, but, rather, even be reproving them.”

2 Cor 6:14-18...
". . . .what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹlial? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? . . . ‘“Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,” says the Lord, “and quit touching the unclean thing”’


Nonsense....it never 'Christianized' the paganism.....but 'paganized' the Christianity. But if you want to keep those things, that is entirely up to you. You will never be able to tell the judge that nobody told you.

So please tell me why so much was added to that simplicity to make it into something so complicated that Christendom demands that you have a theological degree in order to learn all the things they added over the centuries. None of Christ's 12 apostles were educated at the Rabbinical Schools.....neither was Jesus.

You are as shackled as all the rest if you subscribe to their core beliefs.....you are just better at kidding yourselves that it doesn't matter. What if it matters to God?

No one "suddenly" changed their mind about anything. Satan has always had time up his sleeve, so he introduced his deceptions gradually, over centuries of time. (ever hear about the frig in the pot?) It took almost 400 years to finally get approval for the trinity to become official "church" doctrine....but that was a battle fought over many years.
Immortality of the soul and hellfire were introduced from paganism to scare people into submission. The church forbade anyone to read the Bible, so for about 1500 years, the ignorant masses did as they were told....or else.

I would rather change my view a hundred times and arrive at the truth, than be stuck in the same hole for centuries and be dead wrong.

Again, it is not the configuration of the execution stake that is of any significance.....the cross was a religious symbol long before Christ walked the earth.
According to the Encyclopædia Britannica.....“Various objects, dating from periods long anterior to the Christian era, have been found, marked with crosses of different designs, in almost every part of the old world. India, Syria, Persia and Egypt have all yielded numberless examples . . . The use of the cross as a religious symbol in pre-Christian times and among non-Christian peoples may probably be regarded as almost universal, and in very many cases it was connected with some form of nature worship.”

The cross is not a holy thing to God....it was a murder weapon. If your child was killed with a gun, would you hang a replica if it around your neck or decorate your house with it?

Not according to my research. Even with the arms above the head, without the footrests to push up their body to breathe, suffocation would likewise have caused a slow and agonizing death. That is why they broke the legs. The position of the arms determines where the full body weight was carried on the point where the nails were driven into the flesh. Outstretched, the body weight would have torn through the tendons with ease. Above the head would have carried the weight. But the nails may have been driven through the stronger tendons of the wrist.

View attachment 28124

Single pole executions happened in ancient times.....why does it need to be a cross? And what does it matter the configuration?

View attachment 28126 View attachment 28125

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The representation of Christ’s redemptive death on Golgotha does not occur in the symbolic art of the first Christian centuries. The early Christians, influenced by the Old Testament prohibition of graven images, were reluctant to depict even the instrument of the Lord’s Passion.”

There were to be no images used in worship.....remember? "No image of anything".
1Co 1:18 - For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God
 

RLT63

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We don't "think" they do...we "know" they do.
M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia says: “The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of NT origin. The day of Christ’s birth cannot be ascertained from the NT, or, indeed, from any other source.”

The Encyclopedia Americana informs us: “The reason for establishing December 25 as Christmas is somewhat obscure, but it is usually held that the day was chosen to correspond to pagan festivals that took place around the time of the winter solstice, when the days begin to lengthen, to celebrate the ‘rebirth of the sun.’ . . . The Roman Saturnalia (a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of agriculture, and to the renewed power of the sun), also took place at this time, and some Christmas customs are thought to be rooted in this ancient pagan celebration.”

The New Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges: “The date of Christ’s birth is not known. The Gospels indicate neither the day nor the month".

What is accepted by most scholars is that the birth of Christ was assigned the date of the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar, January 6 in the Egyptian), because on this day, as the sun began its return to northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra celebrated the dies natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the invincible sun). On Dec. 25, 274, Aurelian had proclaimed the sun-god principal patron of the empire and dedicated a temple to him in the Campus Martius. Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the sun was particularly strong at Rome.
Roman Catholicism has so many sun symbols connected to their worship.

No one knows the date of Jesus' birth because Jews did not celebrate birthdays.

Easter is even worse, since they didn't even change the name of the goddess that was honored by the pagans at that time of year...the Spring equinox in the Northern Hemisphere.

The Encyclopædia Britannica comments: “There is no indication of the observance of the Easter festival in the New Testament, or in the writings of the apostolic Fathers. The sanctity of special times was an idea absent from the minds of the first Christians.”

The Catholic Encyclopedia admits: A great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter. The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring. . . . The rabbit is a pagan symbol and has always been an emblem of fertility.”

Eph 5:10-11....“Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; and quit sharing with them in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness, but, rather, even be reproving them.”

2 Cor 6:14-18...
". . . .what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹlial? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? . . . ‘“Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,” says the Lord, “and quit touching the unclean thing”’


Nonsense....it never 'Christianized' the paganism.....but 'paganized' the Christianity. But if you want to keep those things, that is entirely up to you. You will never be able to tell the judge that nobody told you.

So please tell me why so much was added to that simplicity to make it into something so complicated that Christendom demands that you have a theological degree in order to learn all the things they added over the centuries. None of Christ's 12 apostles were educated at the Rabbinical Schools.....neither was Jesus.

You are as shackled as all the rest if you subscribe to their core beliefs.....you are just better at kidding yourselves that it doesn't matter. What if it matters to God?

No one "suddenly" changed their mind about anything. Satan has always had time up his sleeve, so he introduced his deceptions gradually, over centuries of time. (ever hear about the frig in the pot?) It took almost 400 years to finally get approval for the trinity to become official "church" doctrine....but that was a battle fought over many years.
Immortality of the soul and hellfire were introduced from paganism to scare people into submission. The church forbade anyone to read the Bible, so for about 1500 years, the ignorant masses did as they were told....or else.

I would rather change my view a hundred times and arrive at the truth, than be stuck in the same hole for centuries and be dead wrong.

Again, it is not the configuration of the execution stake that is of any significance.....the cross was a religious symbol long before Christ walked the earth.
According to the Encyclopædia Britannica.....“Various objects, dating from periods long anterior to the Christian era, have been found, marked with crosses of different designs, in almost every part of the old world. India, Syria, Persia and Egypt have all yielded numberless examples . . . The use of the cross as a religious symbol in pre-Christian times and among non-Christian peoples may probably be regarded as almost universal, and in very many cases it was connected with some form of nature worship.”

The cross is not a holy thing to God....it was a murder weapon. If your child was killed with a gun, would you hang a replica if it around your neck or decorate your house with it?

Not according to my research. Even with the arms above the head, without the footrests to push up their body to breathe, suffocation would likewise have caused a slow and agonizing death. That is why they broke the legs. The position of the arms determines where the full body weight was carried on the point where the nails were driven into the flesh. Outstretched, the body weight would have torn through the tendons with ease. Above the head would have carried the weight. But the nails may have been driven through the stronger tendons of the wrist.

View attachment 28124

Single pole executions happened in ancient times.....why does it need to be a cross? And what does it matter the configuration?

View attachment 28126 View attachment 28125

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The representation of Christ’s redemptive death on Golgotha does not occur in the symbolic art of the first Christian centuries. The early Christians, influenced by the Old Testament prohibition of graven images, were reluctant to depict even the instrument of the Lord’s Passion.”

There were to be no images used in worship.....remember? "No image of anything".
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Mat 10:38 - And he that taketh not his cross, and Following after me, is not worthy of me.
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Mat 16:24 - Then saidJesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me,let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
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Mat 27:32 - And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name:him they compelled to bear his cross.
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Mat 27:40 - And saying,Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. if thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
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Mat 27:42 - He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and-we will believe him.
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Mar 8:34 - And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them,Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself,and take up his cross, and follow me.
 

Aunty Jane

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Mat 10:38 - And he that taketh not his cross, and Following after me, is not worthy of me.
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Mat 16:24 - Then saidJesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me,let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Tools
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Mat 27:32 - And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name:him they compelled to bear his cross.
Tools
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Mat 27:40 - And saying,Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. if thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
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Mat 27:42 - He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and-we will believe him.
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Mar 8:34 - And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them,Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself,and take up his cross, and follow me.
Matt 10:38....Mounce Interlinear...
"38 And kai whoever hos does not ou take lambanō up · ho his autos cross stauros and kai follow akoloutheō me egō is eimi not ou worthy axios of me egō."

Matt 16:24...
"24 Then tote · ho Jesus Iēsous told legō · ho his autos disciples mathētēs, “ If ei anyone tis resolves thelō to come erchomai after opisō me egō, he must deny aparneomai himself heautou and kai take airō up · ho his autos cross stauros and kai follow akoloutheō me egō."

Matt 27:32...
"As they were going exerchomai out , · de they came heuriskō across a man anthrōpos named onoma Simon Simōn, from Cyrene Kyrēnaios. This houtos man they conscripted angareuō to hina carry airō · ho his autos cross stauros.

Matt 27:42...
" and kai saying legō, “ You who ho would destroy katalyō the ho temple naos and kai rebuild oikodomeō it in en three treis days hēmera, save sōzō yourself seautou! If ei you are eimi the Son hyios of ho God theos, come katabainō down from apo the ho cross stauros!”

Mark 8:34...
"34 · kai When he had called proskaleō the ho crowd ochlos with syn · ho his autos disciples mathētēs, he said legō to them autos, “ If ei anyone tis would thelō come akoloutheō after opisō me egō, he must deny aparneomai himself heautou, · kai take airō up · ho his autos cross stauros and kai follow akoloutheō me egō."

What do you notice from the Interlinear about the word translated "cross"? It is "stauros", for which Strongs gives the primary definition....

"σταυρός, σταυροῦ, ὁ (from ἵστημι (root sta); cf. Latinstauro, English staff (see Skeat, Etymological Dictionary, under the word); Curtius, § 216; Vanicek, p. 1126);
1. an upright stake, especially a pointed one (Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon).

2. a cross;
a. the well-known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections....."


The stauros' used for these executions had a few different configurations....

1675305722767.png 1675305746316.png 1675305820832.png

But it doesn't matter what configuration it was....since we are not to make images to use in our worship.
The cross emerged as a symbol for Christianity in Roman Catholicism.....it was unknown except in paganism for the first three centuries.....
 
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Aunty Jane

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1Co 1:18 - For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God
What do you think the message of the "stauros" was? Was it about the instrument used to put Christ to death?.....or was it about Jesus' death and why he had to die to redeem mankind?
 

Wrangler

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we are not to make images to use in our worship.
Hmmm. Not quite. We are not to worship images we make. See the difference?

The cross emerged as a symbol for Christianity in Roman Catholicism.....it was unknown except in paganism for the first three centuries.....
Denying cultural appropriation again. Sad.
 

Adventageous

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The cross emerged as a symbol for Christianity in Roman Catholicism.....it was unknown except in paganism for the first three centuries.....
AWHN - Cross - Grape Vine 03.jpg

AWHN - Cross - Israel Banner 01.jpg

AWHN - Cross - Moses - Serpent 03.jpg

AWHN - Cross - Sanctuary 01.jpg

AWHN - Cross - Sanctuary 02.jpg

AWHN - Cross - Sanctuary 03.jpg

AWHN - Cross - Sanctuary 04.JPG

AWHN - Cross - Grapevine.jpg

AWHN - Cross - Ship Mast.jpg

AWHN - Hebrew - Tav 01.jpg

"Unknown except in paganism"? No. Satan knew the Sanctuary of Heaven, and simply twisted a portion of it to torture the Eternal Son, an God allowed it, as it was already in the Sanctuary. God placed it in nature, the Vine, the Tree (Stock & Branches), as the Standards of Israel, and in the Masts of Ships (symbols of churches in scripture), etc. It's all throughout the scripture, see the true Measurement, Line and Plummet:

Isa 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

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If any Jehovah's Witnesses, choose not to be associated with such T or t symbol as the Cross, then this is their choice, but they should know that by simply assaulting this symbol [the Cross], they have left untouched many others which exist in the Watch Tower and Tract Society materials [Divine Plan of the Ages, New Creation, etc] and buildings, like the Winged Sun-disk of Thebes, Pyramids, the W-Fingered Hand, Keys, etc.

More than this, the very "torture stake" is also seen within paganism, and “phallic”, under the Pole, May-pole, the Stella, Needle, Pyramid, Spike, Yule-Log, Obelisk and so on. Perhaps they have a “beam” in their eye on this, while they are attempting to remove the cross splinter [those who wrongly wear such things] in others.
 
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