A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[Aunty Jane]

I am under no obligation to defend my beliefs - to your satisfaction.

Neither am I under obligation to defend my beliefs to YOUR satisfaction. What I am under obligation to do is to tell the truth.....you don’t have to believe me.....just as people in Jesus day had the choice to believe what Jesus and his apostles taught....or not. Their choice. Believe whatever you wish. Jehovah will not force the truth on anyone....but neither will he reveal his truth to those who don’t want to know it. (John 6:44, 65)

I post my beliefs and the scriptures that support them. When those scriptures disagree with the few you ever chose to provide for your beliefs, they do not fit in with the big picture that the Bible itself provides. You even misinterpreted the the Edenic scenario, and so the whole foundation of your belief system is flawed from the get go....it wasn’t a “tree of knowledge” in the garden, which carries the assumption that Adam and his wife were ignorant and didn’t know any better when they ate the fruit that they knew was God’s exclusive property. What is the flow on from that?.....more misinformation about what “original sin” actually was.

God had educated Adam for quite some time before his mate was even created. Adam was in the process of educating his wife when the devil swooped in on the newby.....she was used as a bait to persuade the man, who was his primary target. The details are important, which is why I go into them so thoroughly to gain the truth.....you can read right over things that are in plain sight without acknowledging their importance in the big scheme of things. Everything has its place in the big picture.

If nothing I post resonates.....if you can’t be bothered with anything but one sentence answers.....then don’t bother responding.....I am so tired of your banal responses, devoid of very much truth. Go clean up your own backyard, wherever that is, before you throw your garbage in mine. If you can’t be bothered doing your own research, you will never learn anything....again, your choice. Knowledge is not your enemy Wrangler.....neither is the truth.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don’t like attacking someone else’s religion but what do you do when someone keeps telling you everyone else is wrong but them?

The thing is, I was raised with Christendom's beliefs, and when I saw nothing but hypocrisy in the churches who claimed Jesus as their "Lord", it erked me to no end, so that is when I decided to research everything for myself......to see if what the churches taught was even true.

I couldn't find anyone in the denominations of Christendom who could defend their beliefs scripturally.....ambiguous verses tended to say what they wanted them to say, rather than to make clear statements about anything.....and researching things back in the day meant going to the library and it was arduous.....until one day there was a knock at my door, and since I had not heard anything good about Jehovah's Witnesses, I decided to have a bit of fun with them, imagining that they would just parrot off the old same stuff that I had received from all the others or some weird stuff that wasn't even in the Bible. So I posed my questions to them.....waiting for the embarrassing silence that I had experienced many times before....but to my complete surprise, they asked me to get my own Bible and look up the answers to my questions for myself.....

I could not believe what I was reading! There in my own Bible were the answers to every question I asked. I agreed to a Bible study and the rest as they say is history.....here I am, 50 years later with all my questions answered and ready to answer anyone else who genuinely wants to know what the Bible says, rather than what they think it says.

@Adventageous[/USER] has already shown that she met her match and had no response for him, and she won’t answer you. I agree with your assessment but maybe I have beat this dead horse enough.

This guy is a joke......he was not one bit interested in any real dialogue, but was simply using me to proffer his own doctrines......there was no time to respond to one post, before another 10 appeared....so what was the point? I could see he was not genuine in wanting to discuss anything.
I have him on ignore because he is not going to do that to me again. He can choose another patsy to sell his ideas.

 

[RLT63]

The thing is, I was raised with Christendom's beliefs, and when I saw nothing but hypocrisy in the churches who claimed Jesus as their "Lord", it erked me to no end, so that is when I decided to research everything for myself......to see if what the churches taught was even true.

I couldn't find anyone in the denominations of Christendom who could defend their beliefs scripturally.....ambiguous verses tended to say what they wanted them to say, rather than to make clear statements about anything.....and researching things back in the day meant going to the library and it was arduous.....until one day there was a knock at my door, and since I had not heard anything good about Jehovah's Witnesses, I decided to have a bit of fun with them, imagining that they would just parrot off the old same stuff that I had received from all the others or some weird stuff that wasn't even in the Bible. So I posed my questions to them.....waiting for the embarrassing silence that I had experienced many times before....but to my complete surprise, they asked me to get my own Bible and look up the answers to my questions for myself.....

I could not believe what I was reading! There in my own Bible were the answers to every question I asked. I agreed to a Bible study and the rest as they say is history.....here I am, 50 years later with all my questions answered and ready to answer anyone else who genuinely wants to know what the Bible says, rather than what they think it says.

This guy is a joke......he was not one bit interested in any real dialogue, but was simply using me to proffer his own doctrines......there was no time to respond to one post, before another 10 appeared....so what was the point? I could see he was not genuine in wanting to discuss anything.
I have him on ignore because he is not going to do that to me again. He can choose another patsy to sell his ideas.

I’m glad you found what works for you. I must say I am surprised you found the answers in the Bible and not a Greek and Hebrew lexicon to tell you what the Bible really means. All kidding aside, you are entitled to your beliefs but you are not Moses bringing the rest of us the law. “here I am, 50 years later with all my questions answered and ready to answer anyone else who genuinely wants to know what the Bible says, rather than what they think it says”. It’s statements like this that bring out the worst of me. I must apologize, the way I have been responding to you wouldn’t change anyone’s mind and I have been more concerned about being right than being God like. I can disagree with you without being disrespectful and I will try to do that. It’s hard when you assert that your views are the only ones with merit. @Adventageous had a lot of information in his posts and @Wrangler has a point about JWs in the past believing differently than you do. But you ignore the questions you don’t want to answer. Were the authors of the link I posted wrong about your beliefs? You didn’t answer that question either. You’re right that you don’t have to it just makes us wonder why.

 

[Adventageous]

he was not one bit interested in any real dialogue

This statement is simply not true. I was willing to consider any point, and did, including those who decided to jump in and try to 'save you' from my responses. That I responded to the multiple points that were presented to me, in several posts, is not in any way showing that I am not interested "in any real dialogue". It shows that I considered your points deeply, and showed from scripture, history, that your multiple points were not valid. I am sorry that you took that as trying to overwhelm you. It was meant to show you evidence that you might not have considered. The responses, upon my own part, are rather small, compared to the vast documentation I have available, and have written and researched (literally 1000's of pages, and over 5TB of material). So, I am sorry, that you were not prepared for my indepth response. I will simplify things and keep to 1 response per, IF, you will agree to speak with me again.

If, you would give me another chance, I will limit myself to one response per one of your replies. You have the word of a Christian, before God. So how about it? You say that you are Christian, so where is the forgiveness, and the second opportunity? You have my word 1 reply, per 1 response when speaking with you. How about it @Aunty Jane ?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Were the authors of the link I posted wrong about your beliefs? You didn’t answer that question either. You’re right that you don’t have to it just makes us wonder why.

You have to give me time RLT....I have other things to do, as I am a full time carer. Sometimes I am called away to attend to things.
The link that you originally quoted from, I would be happy to address, but from your response, it seemed like you had no interest in a reply.

The authors, like all anti-JW sites, never get things right.....its all assumed from listening to other haters. They just copy one another with their claims and contrast them with Christendom's beliefs, never once questioning whether Christendom's churches even have it right in the first place. That is where research has to start.....right at the beginning...at the foundations, because if the foundation is faulty, then the whole building will easily collapse. Is our faith built on the rock or the sand?


Now for the last questions you asked....

Please address any errors in the following. Witnessing to Jehovah’s Witnesses - what is the key? | GotQuestions.org

Seriously...where do you start?

The quote says...."With all these unbiblical beliefs, where does one begin to witness to a Jehovah’s Witness?"

The problem is, our beliefs are not unbiblical because we can prove every one of them.....it was my experience that Christendom's churches have no idea what the Bible says outside of their narrow, "orthodox" view....a view they inherited largely from Roman Catholicism which upon examination, doesn't resemble original Christianity in any way. They are the ones who invented a different Jesus to the one known by his apostles and disciples.

"There is only one place to begin—with the person of Christ Jesus, whose deity is the foundation of Christianity."

The deity of Jesus Christ is not supported in scripture by any clear or unambiguous statement by either Jesus or his Father, stating that he shared any kind of equality with his God and Father.
The apostles collectively did not believe that Jesus was God as Paul said in 1 Cor 8:5-6....
"For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live." (NKJV)

It is obvious that the many scriptures that identify Jesus as "the son of God", never once call him the Almighty (ho theos)....and Jesus refers to his Father after his ascension as "my God".....if Jesus was equal to his Father, he would not worship him in heaven. (Rev 3:12)

"Jehovah’s Witnesses are unable to grasp the significance of Jesus’ death and why they must be born again in order to have their sins forgiven."

I don't believe that Christendom actually knows what being "born again" means. One must be born again to enter the Kingdom.....so what is the Kingdom? Who enters and why? I don't think most "Christians" have any idea. They treat it as if its some kind of emotional experience......but it isn't. Its a "calling" between the individual and God...very personal, but if there is a failure.....it can be lost. (2 Peter 2:20-22)
Rom 8:16 is addressed to the elect. Only the elect (saints) have "the heavenly calling". (Heb 3:1)

1 Cor 1:2...the apostle Paul wrote to....
"...the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours". (NKJV)

There are those called to be "saints".....and there are those "with" them, who also have Jesus Christ as their "Lord".
Only the "saints" are called to the kingdom of heaven where they have a specific role as "kings and priests". (Rev 20:6) Only these are "born again" as spirit sons to take on that role......But their subjects will live on earth where God put us in the first place. (Rev 21:2-4)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Continued....
Not only are we not on the same page as Christendom....we are not even in the same ballpark.

At the time of the "harvest" (the time of Christ's judgment) the 'wheat and the weeds' will have already been separated for life or death.....the weeds are counterfeit Christians who have done exactly what Jesus accused the Pharisees of doing.....
Matthew 15:7-9...
"Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ” (NJKV)

This is why we believe that Christendom is a mirror image of Judaism....they were both corrupted by the same devil....both became enslaved to the commands of men as doctrines, (John 8:44) so long ago that no one really knows what Jesus taught......Most in Christendom have no idea where their beliefs originated, assuming that they were taught by Jesus.....
I can show you that they all originated in ancient Babylon. (Rev 18:4-5)

"Before they can put all their trust in the finished work of Christ Jesus, they have to understand they are not saved, which means they are presently lost in their sin."

We actually know what we are being "saved" from......do you? Only Jesus knows who will pass muster at the judgment.....

"No Witness has the assurance of salvation, which is the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who belong to the Father through Christ".

Even Jesus' apostles did not know for sure that they were good enough to pass the test of faith, since they had to prove faithful to their death.....
As Paul said...."Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." (Phil 3:12-14)

"Be aware they will not read any non-Watchtower literature or attend a church service."
Many of us have come out of Christendom....so why would we want to go back into that disunited rabble? We already know what you believe but you have no idea what we discovered in our quest for the truth....and strangely the majority don't want to know.....that is their choice.....we all have to make them.

"They say they will only accept what the Bible says, but their New World Translation has been altered to reflect their theology, and many verses in the New Testament that point to the full deity of Christ Jesus have been changed to support their view that only partial deity can be ascribed to Him."

The NWT is the more accurate Bible when we compare the original texts and correlate what the Bible teaches when compared to Christendom's translations. Original language studies were undertaken to ensure accuracy. I will gladly compare any verses you may wish to explore.

"It always comes as a surprise to them to meet people who love the Lord, display the fruit of the Spirit, and use the Bible as the basis for their faith".

Well I'm surprised that they think we're surprised.....actually, in this day and age, it is difficult to find people who still confess to being Christians who actually live like one......America is a nation that seems to pride itself on being a "Christian" nation, and yet its behavior as a nation is hardly "Christian" in practice. Its whole history is one of oppression and bloodshed.....like my own.....but Aussies don't pretend to be Christians.

As far as us being surprised to meet people who love the Lord.....its a pleasant change where I live in very secular Australia. It at least give us some common ground in looking to the Bible, but we will never agree on its interpretation. But some interesting exchanges can take place.
Using the Bible as a basis for faith is what all Christians should do....and yet here we are all claiming to be Christ's disciples, and yet reading the word of God in very different ways. Who is to say who has the correct understanding? Jesus will. He will let us all know who it is that was found "doing the will of the Father". (Matt 7:21-23)

@Adventageous had a lot of information in his posts

It wasn't "a lot of information"......it was a flood of ridiculous proportions....not designed for dialogue but to simply promote his own SDA beliefs. Who on earth would have the time to sit through a dozen long posts without a breath in between?

and @Wrangler has a point about JWs in the past believing differently than you do.

Does he? I already explained that. God reveals knowledge progressively, not all at once. My brothers in the past had an outline that was filled in gradually with more details over time. Read the scriptures and see that God has always done this.

But you ignore the questions you don’t want to answer. Were the authors of the link I posted wrong about your beliefs? You didn’t answer that question either. You’re right that you don’t have to it just makes us wonder why.

Please tell me what questions I ignored....? I love questions....and I love answers even more.....read back through this thread and see how many questions Wrangler completely dodged....and you too. He used the distraction of insults to cover his lack of knowledge.
At least you were a little more civil.

 

[RLT63]

You have to give me time RLT....I have other things to do, as I am a full time carer. Sometimes I am called away to attend to things.
The link that you originally quoted from, I would be happy to address, but from your response, it seemed like you had no interest in a reply.

The authors, like all anti-JW sites, never get things right.....its all assumed from listening to other haters. They just copy one another with their claims and contrast them with Christendom's beliefs, never once questioning whether Christendom's churches even have it right in the first place. That is where research has to start.....right at the beginning...at the foundations, because if the foundation is faulty, then the whole building will easily collapse. Is our faith built on the rock or the sand?


Now for the last questions you asked....

Seriously...where do you start?

The quote says...."With all these unbiblical beliefs, where does one begin to witness to a Jehovah’s Witness?"

The problem is, our beliefs are not unbiblical because we can prove every one of them.....it was my experience that Christendom's churches have no idea what the Bible says outside of their narrow, "orthodox" view....a view they inherited largely from Roman Catholicism which upon examination, doesn't resemble original Christianity in any way. They are the ones who invented a different Jesus to the one known by his apostles and disciples.

"There is only one place to begin—with the person of Christ Jesus, whose deity is the foundation of Christianity."

The deity of Jesus Christ is not supported in scripture by any clear or unambiguous statement by either Jesus or his Father, stating that he shared any kind of equality with his God and Father.
The apostles collectively did not believe that Jesus was God as Paul said in 1 Cor 8:5-6....
"For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live." (NKJV)

It is obvious that the many scriptures that identify Jesus as "the son of God", never once call him the Almighty (ho theos)....and Jesus refers to his Father after his ascension as "my God".....if Jesus was equal to his Father, he would not worship him in heaven. (Rev 3:12)

"Jehovah’s Witnesses are unable to grasp the significance of Jesus’ death and why they must be born again in order to have their sins forgiven."

I don't believe that Christendom actually knows what being "born again" means. One must be born again to enter the Kingdom.....so what is the Kingdom? Who enters and why? I don't think most "Christians" have any idea. They treat it as if its some kind of emotional experience......but it isn't. Its a "calling" between the individual and God...very personal, but if there is a failure.....it can be lost. (2 Peter 2:20-22)
Rom 8:16 is addressed to the elect. Only the elect (saints) have "the heavenly calling". (Heb 3:1)

1 Cor 1:2...the apostle Paul wrote to....
"...the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours". (NKJV)

There are those called to be "saints".....and there are those "with" them, who also have Jesus Christ as their "Lord".
Only the "saints" are called to the kingdom of heaven where they have a specific role as "kings and priests". (Rev 20:6) Only these are "born again" as spirit sons to take on that role......But their subjects will live on earth where God put us in the first place. (Rev 21:2-4)

This is what I’m asking about; “Because they say that Jesus is a demi-god, their understanding of salvation and atonement is wrong. They say Jesus, who was a perfect Man, died only to atone for the sin of Adam and that, when we die, our death pays the penalty of our own sin. Only some 10,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses today can possibly claim to be born again and have a heavenly hope. The rest say they don’t want to go to heaven to be with the Lord but they want to live forever on a paradise earth (Restorationism). They believe if they remain faithful and obedient till the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ Jesus, they will earn the right to be declared righteous, and that’s why they have to keep on striving, with no assurance of salvation. Only today’s “remnant” of the 144,000 can say they are in the New Covenant and that Christ Jesus is their mediator. All must be obedient to the leaders (the Watchtower Society and its Governing Body) if they wish to survive Armageddon. To disagree with what the Governing Body says is to disagree with Jehovah because He uses them as His sole channel of communication to dispense “the truth.” Only they saw “with spiritual eyes of discernment” that Christ Jesus started to rule from heaven in 1914, an invisible “second presence.” Also, they say Christ Jesus will never return to earth but will remain in heaven, there to rule with the 144,000 over the earth”. Is this wrong about JWs beliefs?

 

[RLT63]

Continued....
Not only are we not on the same page as Christendom....we are not even in the same ballpark.

At the time of the "harvest" (the time of Christ's judgment) the 'wheat and the weeds' will have already been separated for life or death.....the weeds are counterfeit Christians who have done exactly what Jesus accused the Pharisees of doing.....
Matthew 15:7-9...
"Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ” (NJKV)

This is why we believe that Christendom is a mirror image of Judaism....they were both corrupted by the same devil....both became enslaved to the commands of men as doctrines, (John 8:44) so long ago that no one really knows what Jesus taught......Most in Christendom have no idea where their beliefs originated, assuming that they were taught by Jesus.....
I can show you that they all originated in ancient Babylon. (Rev 18:4-5)

"Before they can put all their trust in the finished work of Christ Jesus, they have to understand they are not saved, which means they are presently lost in their sin."

We actually know what we are being "saved" from......do you? Only Jesus knows who will pass muster at the judgment.....

"No Witness has the assurance of salvation, which is the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who belong to the Father through Christ".

Even Jesus' apostles did not know for sure that they were good enough to pass the test of faith, since they had to prove faithful to their death.....
As Paul said...."Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." (Phil 3:12-14)

"Be aware they will not read any non-Watchtower literature or attend a church service."
Many of us have come out of Christendom....so why would we want to go back into that disunited rabble? We already know what you believe but you have no idea what we discovered in our quest for the truth....and strangely the majority don't want to know.....that is their choice.....we all have to make them.

"They say they will only accept what the Bible says, but their New World Translation has been altered to reflect their theology, and many verses in the New Testament that point to the full deity of Christ Jesus have been changed to support their view that only partial deity can be ascribed to Him."

The NWT is the more accurate Bible when we compare the original texts and correlate what the Bible teaches when compared to Christendom's translations. Original language studies were undertaken to ensure accuracy. I will gladly compare any verses you may wish to explore.

"It always comes as a surprise to them to meet people who love the Lord, display the fruit of the Spirit, and use the Bible as the basis for their faith".

Well I'm surprised that they think we're surprised.....actually, in this day and age, it is difficult to find people who still confess to being Christians who actually live like one......America is a nation that seems to pride itself on being a "Christian" nation, and yet its behavior as a nation is hardly "Christian" in practice. Its whole history is one of oppression and bloodshed.....like my own.....but Aussies don't pretend to be Christians.

As far as us being surprised to meet people who love the Lord.....its a pleasant change where I live in very secular Australia. It at least give us some common ground in looking to the Bible, but we will never agree on its interpretation. But some interesting exchanges can take place.
Using the Bible as a basis for faith is what all Christians should do....and yet here we are all claiming to be Christ's disciples, and yet reading the word of God in very different ways. Who is to say who has the correct understanding? Jesus will. He will let us all know who it is that was found "doing the will of the Father". (Matt 7:21-23)


It wasn't "a lot of information"......it was a flood of ridiculous proportions....not designed for dialogue but to simply promote his own SDA beliefs. Who on earth would have the time to sit through a dozen long posts without a breath in between?

Does he? I already explained that. God reveals knowledge progressively, not all at once. My brothers in the past had an outline that was filled in gradually with more details over time. Read the scriptures and see that God has always done this.

Please tell me what questions I ignored....? I love questions....and I love answers even more.....read back through this thread and see how many questions Wrangler completely dodged....and you too. He used the distraction of insults to cover his lack of knowledge.
At least you were a little more civil.

You answered more in this post. Thanks for taking the time to answer.

 

[RLT63]

Continued....
Not only are we not on the same page as Christendom....we are not even in the same ballpark.

At the time of the "harvest" (the time of Christ's judgment) the 'wheat and the weeds' will have already been separated for life or death.....the weeds are counterfeit Christians who have done exactly what Jesus accused the Pharisees of doing.....
Matthew 15:7-9...
"Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ” (NJKV)

This is why we believe that Christendom is a mirror image of Judaism....they were both corrupted by the same devil....both became enslaved to the commands of men as doctrines, (John 8:44) so long ago that no one really knows what Jesus taught......Most in Christendom have no idea where their beliefs originated, assuming that they were taught by Jesus.....
I can show you that they all originated in ancient Babylon. (Rev 18:4-5)

"Before they can put all their trust in the finished work of Christ Jesus, they have to understand they are not saved, which means they are presently lost in their sin."

We actually know what we are being "saved" from......do you? Only Jesus knows who will pass muster at the judgment.....

"No Witness has the assurance of salvation, which is the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who belong to the Father through Christ".

Even Jesus' apostles did not know for sure that they were good enough to pass the test of faith, since they had to prove faithful to their death.....
As Paul said...."Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." (Phil 3:12-14)

"Be aware they will not read any non-Watchtower literature or attend a church service."
Many of us have come out of Christendom....so why would we want to go back into that disunited rabble? We already know what you believe but you have no idea what we discovered in our quest for the truth....and strangely the majority don't want to know.....that is their choice.....we all have to make them.

"They say they will only accept what the Bible says, but their New World Translation has been altered to reflect their theology, and many verses in the New Testament that point to the full deity of Christ Jesus have been changed to support their view that only partial deity can be ascribed to Him."

The NWT is the more accurate Bible when we compare the original texts and correlate what the Bible teaches when compared to Christendom's translations. Original language studies were undertaken to ensure accuracy. I will gladly compare any verses you may wish to explore.

"It always comes as a surprise to them to meet people who love the Lord, display the fruit of the Spirit, and use the Bible as the basis for their faith".

Well I'm surprised that they think we're surprised.....actually, in this day and age, it is difficult to find people who still confess to being Christians who actually live like one......America is a nation that seems to pride itself on being a "Christian" nation, and yet its behavior as a nation is hardly "Christian" in practice. Its whole history is one of oppression and bloodshed.....like my own.....but Aussies don't pretend to be Christians.

As far as us being surprised to meet people who love the Lord.....its a pleasant change where I live in very secular Australia. It at least give us some common ground in looking to the Bible, but we will never agree on its interpretation. But some interesting exchanges can take place.
Using the Bible as a basis for faith is what all Christians should do....and yet here we are all claiming to be Christ's disciples, and yet reading the word of God in very different ways. Who is to say who has the correct understanding? Jesus will. He will let us all know who it is that was found "doing the will of the Father". (Matt 7:21-23)


It wasn't "a lot of information"......it was a flood of ridiculous proportions....not designed for dialogue but to simply promote his own SDA beliefs. Who on earth would have the time to sit through a dozen long posts without a breath in between?

Does he? I already explained that. God reveals knowledge progressively, not all at once. My brothers in the past had an outline that was filled in gradually with more details over time. Read the scriptures and see that God has always done this.

Please tell me what questions I ignored....? I love questions....and I love answers even more.....read back through this thread and see how many questions Wrangler completely dodged....and you too. He used the distraction of insults to cover his lack of knowledge.
At least you were a little more civil.

You answered more questions in a subsequent post.

 

[RLT63]

No, its actually still a part of the current English language that does not need interpreting....

Of course he did, because he was an apostle personally chosen by Jesus for a specific ministry. He is one of the elect who were definitely promised a heavenly reward.....he referred to it as the "heavenly calling" and only the "saints" receive this calling. (Heb 3:1)

What are saints? What are Christian saints according to the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Wrangler]

This guy is a joke......he was not one bit interested in any real dialogue, but was simply using me to proffer his own doctrines......I have him on ignore

Wow! Very shocking Aunty Jane.

I sense a lot of projecting in many of your last posts. @Adventageous was using others to proffer up his own doctrines? I’m not sure who is NOT ‘guilty’ of that.

I found @Adventageous to be polite, thorough and well researched. Frankly, I found him to be a lot like you. I’m disappointed to read you confirming that you put him on ignore. A loss to CyB community for I imagine exchanges between you 2 could be epic.

He has publicly asked for your forgiveness and asked you to give him a 2nd chance. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive.

 

[Mr E]

Wow! Very shocking Aunty Jane.

I sense a lot of projecting in many of your last posts. @Adventageous was using others to proffer up his own doctrines? I’m not sure who is NOT ‘guilty’ of that.

I found @Adventageous to be polite, thorough and well researched. Frankly, I found him to be a lot like you. I’m disappointed to read you confirming that you put him on ignore. A loss to CyB community for I imagine exchanges between you 2 could be epic.

He has publicly asked for your forgiveness and asked you to give him a 2nd chance. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive.

I ignore the guy also. Not because of his beliefs, but because of his behavior. He’s rude, condescending, argumentative and insulting. I haven’t looked at anything he’s even posted here, because I saw how he was acting at another site which he was banned from for exactly that kind of behavior.

You reap what you sow. While there are things JW’s and SDA’s get both right and wrong— like all people… it’s the organizational behavior that makes these groups of people the way they are. It’s their beliefs about themselves that often makes them behave (poorly) the way they do.

While caught up in these organizations that inform their beliefs, right or wrong— they also greatly influence their bad behavior. At least @Aunty Jane is polite, even when she skirts around these problems of belief and behavior. You can’t say the same for your friend.

 

[Wrangler]

You can’t say the same for your friend.

I like to think I am everyone’s friend.

I hadn’t noticed the things you said on this site.

 

[Mr E]

I like to think I am everyone’s friend.

I hadn’t noticed the things you said on this site.

Like I said-- I haven't been reading his posts here. I'd already seen enough of him. Typical SDA rock-throwing.

 

[Wrangler]

Typical SDA rock-throwing.

I don't know what that is. Can I determine for myself what is what without you repeatedly telling me how awful @Adventageous is?

 

[Mr E]

I don't know what that is. Can I determine for myself what is what without you repeatedly telling me how awful @Adventageous is?

Of course. Just because I don’t lend him my ear, my choices don’t affect yours.

Neither do your affect mine, friend.

Nor do your own determinations about him, @Aunty Jane , me, or anyone else have any bearing. Your own opinion matters most only to YOU.

Be mindful of that. Look at your own assertions in this thread first.

 

[Adventageous]

He’s rude, condescending, argumentative and insulting. I haven’t looked at anything he’s even posted here, because I saw how he was acting at another site which he was banned from for exactly that kind of behavior.

Hello Mr. E. That was not the reason the other sites banned me (Christian Forums (com) & Christian Chat (com)). Their specific reasons for banning me were:

[1] Christian Forums (Com) - Bypassing a previous ban (and they said this after I posted about AntiChrist and the Roman Catholic church from their own sources, and they banned me within minutes of posting that. I was not rude in any of my 100+ posts) Have I been banned from Christian Forums (Com) before? Sure, nearly a 100 times (I lost count a long time ago), and I'll be back there shortly, as time goes, by God's grace, for they cannot actually keep me out, and I have the perfect way (at least two now) around their checks now (perfectly invisible to them, and they will not be able to see where I am actually posting from, and it does not involve TOR or VPN, or IP (MAC) spoofing, or Dynamic IP, or even alternating emails, etc). They have upgraded their security several times and changed their rules on several occasions because of my persistence to reach others on their site. Why did they ban me those many times? The original first offense was taking on the Mods/Admin in their own hypocrisy for violating their own written rules - they simply didn't like me showing them from their own rules, and so they got rid of me. They would ignore their own rules, and make stuff up to ban people, and remove posts they did not like, when it went against their beliefs. Subsequent bans alternated between similar things, and simply bypassing their bans, or for clearly presenting bible studies which demonstrated the 10 Commandments, the Sabbath of the LORD (of which they eventually had to move all discussion to a buried sub forum), state of the Dead, prophecy, tithe, etc in the Christian life.

[2] Christian Chat (Com) - Continually promoting "SDA doctrines", and this after I posted about the Ten Commandments and how drunkeness was still related to those 10 (Psa. 119:96) I have been banned multiple times on this site too, but they didn't say anything about that, and the reasons are the same as the other forum. The original ban was for "posting SDA doctrines". I had posted on Michael the Archangel, and presented the historical documentation. Other times it was about Sabbath, how a person is saved, tithe, Ten Commandments, Covenants, etc.

In neither case, did a single Admin. or Mod. contact me, or ping me, in those latest incidents, for being rude. In neither case, did either Admin. or Mod, remove a single post for being "rude, condescending, argumentative and insulting". They never even contacted me once. It is always about the doctrine, the theology. They cannot handle the truth plain and simple.

In this present forum, I have had only one post removed, because it dealt with historical material from Roman Catholic sources, on their approved practice of murdering unborn babies (abortion) by killing in various past events (Vaudois, under Emperor Frederick II at Padua, St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, Canon Law, etc). I appealed to Admin, and they said I was goading, which is utter rubbish, and they could not prove their point, as I specifically gave the reason as historical to the topic. They just cannot handle facts, and are historical revisionists, and want to deny what the Roman Catholic church really is theologically. The sources I cited were Roman Catholic historic sources, and one from a Roman Catholic Historian, Lord Acton, on the subject from his own viewpoint at the time. I goaded no one, and they have no evidence I did, other than their simple biased say-so.

This is the truth of the matter. If they give you any other reason, that is not the reason they gave me in print. I can always log back into those banned accounts and paste the reason directly, but it will only substantiate what I have provided here.

 

[Adventageous]

Just because I don’t lend him my ear

Where have I heard this before?

​

Psa_115:6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:​

​

Psa_135:17 They have ears, but they hear not; neither is there any breath in their mouths.​

​

Jer_5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:​

​

Eze_12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.​

​

Zec_7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.​

​

Mar_8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?​

​

Act_7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,​

​

Rom_11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.​

Well, God said:

Eze_8:18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.​

 

[Wrangler]

Knowledge is not your enemy Wrangler.....neither is the truth.

Agreed. Knowledge is YOUR enemy for it has become your IDOL.

You just ignore the truth. I've posted it several times. Your doctrine denies salvation to fellow JW's. No response ... Cricket ... Cricket ... Cricket

 

[Adventageous]

I don't know what that is. Can I determine for myself what is what without you repeatedly telling me how awful @Adventageous is?

They can talk about me, but not to me. They do not follow the principle of Matthew 18.