A small rapture?

[Reddsta]

So you are one who believes as a true born again Christian, you can't sin. You went to the wrong church.

Ronald…I have probably wasted my time here as far as you are concerned…however my time and I are redeemed. If you have the maturity to go through this I assure you that you have an opportunity to gain some badly needed understanding concerning the “topic of sin.”

This was something I did at some point when I was studying to gain a more foundational understanding of “sin”…there were many verses/chapters I worked through…this includes one or two of your “cherry picked…proof texted” examples to me in one of your posts…this is a brief from 1John 1:1-4 NASB first and then vs. 5-10 in a subsequent post. As it is with eisegesis…there is likely room for greater clarity…I’ll be looking for that here.

1Jn 1:1-4 NASB “What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life-- (2) and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- (3) what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. (4) These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.”

In the first 4 verses of 1st John 1, John writes that “they – the apostles” have heard, seen and touched the “Word of life”…of course they lived with the Word Himself…Yahshua. John says we are bringing this “eternal life” which came from the Father…to you now…just as He came to us. So they are bringing to those who read or hear this letter...perhaps for the first time…the Lord Yahshua Christ…by the Holy Spirit indwelling each of the apostles.

He writes that which he and the other apostles have experienced “in Christ”…so that the hearers of this message as set forth in this letter…may have fellowship with them…the apostles…as they have fellowship with the Father and the Son.

Clearly this is a message intended for anyone that hears it…to those who already have the life of Christ in them…”eternal life”…it is an affirmation of who Yahshua is…and who they are in Him…and that they are in fellowship with the Father, the Son and His apostles.

To those who “may not” yet have this “eternal life” in them…it is an instruction to pay close attention to them and what they say…and then John invites them to become partakers of this “eternal life” of Christ.

John is saying that all who hear his message “may become” partakers of the Lord’s “eternal life” with His Father and the apostles…thus acknowledging that their (apostles) work is authenticated by the Holy Spirit…this via the manifestation of the presence of the Lord (fellowship). This interpretation is further codified in the following…

Continued...

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

1st John 1:5-10 NASB

(5) This is the message we have heard from Him [Yahshua Christ] and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness [sin & unrighteousness] at all.

This message from God…given to us apostles first…is to notify “ALL” others…saved and unsaved…whoever gets it…that God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. “In Christ”…who gives “eternal life”…there is no darkness…in other words…no ”sin, unrighteousness, or death.”

(6) If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

Clearly this verse is aimed at the “imposters”…”false believers” and ”liars”…those yet in “sin & unrighteousness” who are not in Christ. That much is clear because John designated them as “liars and deceivers” and regardless of what they may think of themselves…they are definitely not “in Christ” and do not have His “eternal life.”Additionally, they are not counted in the “fellowship” among the Father, Son and apostles in the kingdom of God on earth.

(7) but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

On the other hand…here in vs. 7…”if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light”…we are part of the “Body of Christ” and as such…the blood of Yahshua the Son of God washes us clean from what?

ALL Sin…that is what is written by John. The word “cleanses” there in that passage means “free from filth…to be purified from the contamination of guilt and sin.”

This must be a rather thorough cleansing…right…for it is from “ALL SIN” there are no conditions on the word “ALL”…meaning there is no sin…past, present or future…that this cleansing has not cleansed...it cleanses from “ALL SIN.” Of course Yahshua died for “ALL SINs” it is finished! Eternal life is in view here...most assuredly.

(8) If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Here in vs. 8 John references back to those imposters who “lie and deceive – sin”…from vs. 6…”who say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness”…liars…in claiming that they have no sin…they claim they are in the light…which is not correct…because they walk in darkness…sin and as such have not been cleansed from ALL SIN by appropriating the blood of Yahshua…hence they are deceived and the truth is not in these…they continue in sin.

We know this is right…because in vs. 7 John just finished telling us that those who “walk in the light are cleansed from ALL SIN” so clearly he is not referring to those already cleansed from “ALL SIN” here in vs. 8.

(9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John is now instructing these who sin (vs. 6 & 8) who claim…”that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness” which is a sin…lying…that if they confess this sin…”He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Once again…notice that these who are “cleansed”...are “cleansed” from “ALL unrighteousness.” The blood of Yahshua cleanses ALL sin and unrighteousness…that is ALL sin and unrighteousness…of course.

He shed His blood…died…for “ALL SIN”…and those who take advantage of this “cleansing” from “ALL sin and unrighteousness” by faith…walk in the Light as He is light…no sin and unrighteousness. They are not in sin.

Those who “falsely claim” the cleansing from sin by the blood of the Lamb (those that sin and say they are saved by grace)…lie…and must confess this “sin” or they are deceiving themselves in regard to the matter of “sin” and not practicing “Truth” as a lifestyle.

This is about a Father and His sons…those who are actually cleansed in the blood of the Lamb are the sons of God…free from ALL sin and unrighteousness. The rest live in sin and are condemned regardless of what they think.

(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

John is surely addressing those who say…”we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness”…because he is specifically calling these folks out here…telling us that they lie and do not practice the truth…the result is…His “Word – eternal life” is not in them…they are guilty of sin claiming they are not…which of course is their sin.

These are they that have “NOT” been “cleansed of ALL SIN and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS" by the blood of Yahshua Christ…but claim they have...they yet sin...some even say that...this is exactly what Brother John is telling us.

To be “in Christ or in fellowship with the Father, Son and Body” means to be cleansed from ALL sin and unrighteousness…how can “sin and unrighteousness”…darkness…be found “in Christ?” It literally has not and cannot ever happen…John tells us here that He…God is light and in Him there is no darkness.

I really don’t feel any grief or loss for those of you who say you are “in Christ” and yet claim you are sinning sinners who sin. Because you also say that you have fellowship with Him...light...and because of this sin you walk in the darkness…that is a lie and you are not practicing truth…just as John the apostle has taught here in 1st John 1.

Live as you wish...it is up to you...as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment...that speaks loudly to the sinning sinner who sins...who also proclaims they are in the "light."

Redd…

 

[No Pre-TB]

So, why would the BELIEVERS need to be here for that?

A.) They aren't.

Why would God want the BRIDE to suffer the WRATH of God that is poured out during the Grt Trib, when the born again are "not appointed to Wrath".

If you actually study Paul, and not one verse and the rest a heretics commentaries, then you'll notice that Paul was also looking for the Rapture, and never the wrath of God.

Hello Behold.

I'd like to respond to your statement as I've heard this many times from those that believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Why would Christians be on earth during the seals or the trumpets? It sounds terrible, so why put us through it? One poster already responded the Israelites were in Egypt during the trials and none of them experienced wrath. So why would we?

Secondly, if we were to be changed immortal at a Pre-trib rapture, why would we have to leave earth? God's wrath doesn't affect immortals does it? So what purpose is it to leave earth if you are changed? With that in mind, I'd like to ask you how you interpret this passage:

1 Thess 5
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

If we are children of the day, and the day of the Lord will not overtake us, why do some say we won't be on earth? The day of the Lord only overtakes those in darkness, not those in the light. So as long as you remain in the light, you will not be caught off guard suggesting we will be here.

So, why would God keep his people here during tribulation?

Because tribulation doesn't just refine those of us that are weak (Rev 2:9-10)
But that Christ may dwell in the hearts of others that see us remain firm in trouble (Ephesians 3:13-19)
Which to those that would look to Christ and grow, it is for their consolation and salvation (2 Cor 1:6)
And through our resilience, much more are people to Boldy speak of Christ. (Philippians 1:14)
Because we are appointed to it (1 Thessalonians 3:3-4)
And we are joyful in tribulations because they produce perseverance which tests, confirms and preserves the better elements of our faith (Romans 5:3)

To respond to your question, why would God want his wife to suffer the wrath of God. I'm not aware of anyone who thinks that, But let's talk about the wife. When is the wife made ready?

Rev 19:6-9
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

I think it is obvious the wife was not ready anytime beforehand as she is made ready after the 7th trumpet when Christ begins to reign. And not only that, but she is then granted the fine white linen and never beforehand. How would the wife be raptured any time earlier if she was just made ready and received white linen?

Let me ask this another way. For the lawyers out there, they might enjoy this. Historically, when a King was in exile or away from a Kingdom that should be his, his people would wait and hope for his return and to push out the invaders that delt them wickedly. When the people would finally hear that their King would come, would the King come get them, leave, and reward his people? or would the King come and take back his land, and then reward his people. Then he would drive the rest of the wicked out of his country. The latter is the logical response. The King would take back his Kingdom and then reward his people.

Lastly, you said: the WRATH of God that is poured out during the Grt Trib

Yes and No. The wrath of God is poured out during the bowls. That is the only time anything is poured out. God's wrath is not poured out during the trumpets. His Orge is against Babylon to answer the 5th seal martyrs. And if you think there is wrath in the seals, I'll be happy to provide 5 biblical reasons why wrath doesn't exist in the seals. And we should not confuse widespread persecution (great tribulation) with God's wrath. They are 2 completely different words that are not related.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

For what it’s worth I did go to the wrong church…several of them.

As for being a “true born again Christian”…call it as you see it friend…you already believe what you know and seem pretty sure of it.

I will say this however I do not consider myself a “Christian” Ronald…that title was brought forth as a title of ridicule…it continues in that tradition today…just look around you...why would anyone want to be like them?

If one struggles with the understanding of what “sin” is then one cannot understand and appreciate what “cleansed of ALL sin and unrighteous” actually means…let alone appropriate it. This leaves religious humanity continuously striving to please God…which then disqualifies them from pleasing God.

So are you under the “Law” which is for the “lawless” or are you under grace Ronald? Do you understand those concepts in similar fashion as you do the concept of sin? It cannot be both…they are for two different realms. Law is to sentence and condemn those who sin…the grace of God personally engages the failure of His own in love, admonition, chastisement, patience without the condemnation of sin…as I told you. One is judgment…one is grace…two different realities.

There is no darkness in Christ…not yours not mine….none…the blood of Yahshua atoned for ALL sin…I have been cleansed from ALL sin and unrighteousness…ALL.

Redd...

So are the two commandments that Jesus gave ( that all other commandments fall under), to love God and love your neighbor not laws?
You have not reached an understanding of Romans 7. Paul struggled with the flesh. It warred against his spirit.
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Rom. 7:23-25

Take some time and listen to this sermon.

Why Do I Still Sin?

Sometimes you look at your life and feel downright un-Christian. You find yourself neglecting to do the good things you should do. And you commit the very sins you hate and know you shouldn’t do. Th

www.gty.org

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

1st John 1:5-10 NASB

(5) This is the message we have heard from Him [Yahshua Christ] and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness [sin & unrighteousness] at all.

This message from God…given to us apostles first…is to notify “ALL” others…saved and unsaved…whoever gets it…that God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. “In Christ”…who gives “eternal life”…there is no darkness…in other words…no ”sin, unrighteousness, or death.”

(6) If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

Clearly this verse is aimed at the “imposters”…”false believers” and ”liars”…those yet in “sin & unrighteousness” who are not in Christ. That much is clear because John designated them as “liars and deceivers” and regardless of what they may think of themselves…they are definitely not “in Christ” and do not have His “eternal life.”Additionally, they are not counted in the “fellowship” among the Father, Son and apostles in the kingdom of God on earth.

(7) but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

On the other hand…here in vs. 7…”if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light”…we are part of the “Body of Christ” and as such…the blood of Yahshua the Son of God washes us clean from what?

ALL Sin…that is what is written by John. The word “cleanses” there in that passage means “free from filth…to be purified from the contamination of guilt and sin.”

This must be a rather thorough cleansing…right…for it is from “ALL SIN” there are no conditions on the word “ALL”…meaning there is no sin…past, present or future…that this cleansing has not cleansed...it cleanses from “ALL SIN.” Of course Yahshua died for “ALL SINs” it is finished! Eternal life is in view here...most assuredly.

(8) If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Here in vs. 8 John references back to those imposters who “lie and deceive – sin”…from vs. 6…”who say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness”…liars…in claiming that they have no sin…they claim they are in the light…which is not correct…because they walk in darkness…sin and as such have not been cleansed from ALL SIN by appropriating the blood of Yahshua…hence they are deceived and the truth is not in these…they continue in sin.

We know this is right…because in vs. 7 John just finished telling us that those who “walk in the light are cleansed from ALL SIN” so clearly he is not referring to those already cleansed from “ALL SIN” here in vs. 8.

(9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John is now instructing these who sin (vs. 6 & 8) who claim…”that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness” which is a sin…lying…that if they confess this sin…”He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Once again…notice that these who are “cleansed”...are “cleansed” from “ALL unrighteousness.” The blood of Yahshua cleanses ALL sin and unrighteousness…that is ALL sin and unrighteousness…of course.

He shed His blood…died…for “ALL SIN”…and those who take advantage of this “cleansing” from “ALL sin and unrighteousness” by faith…walk in the Light as He is light…no sin and unrighteousness. They are not in sin.

Those who “falsely claim” the cleansing from sin by the blood of the Lamb (those that sin and say they are saved by grace)…lie…and must confess this “sin” or they are deceiving themselves in regard to the matter of “sin” and not practicing “Truth” as a lifestyle.

This is about a Father and His sons…those who are actually cleansed in the blood of the Lamb are the sons of God…free from ALL sin and unrighteousness. The rest live in sin and are condemned regardless of what they think.

(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

John is surely addressing those who say…”we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness”…because he is specifically calling these folks out here…telling us that they lie and do not practice the truth…the result is…His “Word – eternal life” is not in them…they are guilty of sin claiming they are not…which of course is their sin.

These are they that have “NOT” been “cleansed of ALL SIN and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS" by the blood of Yahshua Christ…but claim they have...they yet sin...some even say that...this is exactly what Brother John is telling us.

To be “in Christ or in fellowship with the Father, Son and Body” means to be cleansed from ALL sin and unrighteousness…how can “sin and unrighteousness”…darkness…be found “in Christ?” It literally has not and cannot ever happen…John tells us here that He…God is light and in Him there is no darkness.

I really don’t feel any grief or loss for those of you who say you are “in Christ” and yet claim you are sinning sinners who sin. Because you also say that you have fellowship with Him...light...and because of this sin you walk in the darkness…that is a lie and you are not practicing truth…just as John the apostle has taught here in 1st John 1.

Live as you wish...it is up to you...as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment...that speaks loudly to the sinning sinner who sins...who also proclaims they are in the "light."

Redd…

Absolutely, those who put their faith in Christ are cleansed - spiritually. BUT WE STILL DEAL WITH THE FLESH and the flesh wars against the spirit. We are a new creature and I believe it's a done deal, OSAS. If we died suddenly at any moment, we would separate from our bodies, ascend to heaven and be presented white as snow. Our flesh isn't dead yet. We are suppose ti render it dead, die to theology self; but apparently it is not sudden and somewhat of a slow death. Frankly, we are really dead until we are physically dead. Spiritually we were transported back in time and died with Chriat on the cross. That is why it is a done deal, just notbyet fully realized. There it is again, "the already but not yet".

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

1st John 1:5-10 NASB

(5) This is the message we have heard from Him [Yahshua Christ] and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness [sin & unrighteousness] at all.

This message from God…given to us apostles first…is to notify “ALL” others…saved and unsaved…whoever gets it…that God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. “In Christ”…who gives “eternal life”…there is no darkness…in other words…no ”sin, unrighteousness, or death.”

(6) If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

Clearly this verse is aimed at the “imposters”…”false believers” and ”liars”…those yet in “sin & unrighteousness” who are not in Christ. That much is clear because John designated them as “liars and deceivers” and regardless of what they may think of themselves…they are definitely not “in Christ” and do not have His “eternal life.”Additionally, they are not counted in the “fellowship” among the Father, Son and apostles in the kingdom of God on earth.

(7) but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

On the other hand…here in vs. 7…”if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light”…we are part of the “Body of Christ” and as such…the blood of Yahshua the Son of God washes us clean from what?

ALL Sin…that is what is written by John. The word “cleanses” there in that passage means “free from filth…to be purified from the contamination of guilt and sin.”

This must be a rather thorough cleansing…right…for it is from “ALL SIN” there are no conditions on the word “ALL”…meaning there is no sin…past, present or future…that this cleansing has not cleansed...it cleanses from “ALL SIN.” Of course Yahshua died for “ALL SINs” it is finished! Eternal life is in view here...most assuredly.

(8) If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Here in vs. 8 John references back to those imposters who “lie and deceive – sin”…from vs. 6…”who say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness”…liars…in claiming that they have no sin…they claim they are in the light…which is not correct…because they walk in darkness…sin and as such have not been cleansed from ALL SIN by appropriating the blood of Yahshua…hence they are deceived and the truth is not in these…they continue in sin.

We know this is right…because in vs. 7 John just finished telling us that those who “walk in the light are cleansed from ALL SIN” so clearly he is not referring to those already cleansed from “ALL SIN” here in vs. 8.

(9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John is now instructing these who sin (vs. 6 & 8) who claim…”that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness” which is a sin…lying…that if they confess this sin…”He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Once again…notice that these who are “cleansed”...are “cleansed” from “ALL unrighteousness.” The blood of Yahshua cleanses ALL sin and unrighteousness…that is ALL sin and unrighteousness…of course.

He shed His blood…died…for “ALL SIN”…and those who take advantage of this “cleansing” from “ALL sin and unrighteousness” by faith…walk in the Light as He is light…no sin and unrighteousness. They are not in sin.

Those who “falsely claim” the cleansing from sin by the blood of the Lamb (those that sin and say they are saved by grace)…lie…and must confess this “sin” or they are deceiving themselves in regard to the matter of “sin” and not practicing “Truth” as a lifestyle.

This is about a Father and His sons…those who are actually cleansed in the blood of the Lamb are the sons of God…free from ALL sin and unrighteousness. The rest live in sin and are condemned regardless of what they think.

(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

John is surely addressing those who say…”we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness”…because he is specifically calling these folks out here…telling us that they lie and do not practice the truth…the result is…His “Word – eternal life” is not in them…they are guilty of sin claiming they are not…which of course is their sin.

These are they that have “NOT” been “cleansed of ALL SIN and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS" by the blood of Yahshua Christ…but claim they have...they yet sin...some even say that...this is exactly what Brother John is telling us.

To be “in Christ or in fellowship with the Father, Son and Body” means to be cleansed from ALL sin and unrighteousness…how can “sin and unrighteousness”…darkness…be found “in Christ?” It literally has not and cannot ever happen…John tells us here that He…God is light and in Him there is no darkness.

I really don’t feel any grief or loss for those of you who say you are “in Christ” and yet claim you are sinning sinners who sin. Because you also say that you have fellowship with Him...light...and because of this sin you walk in the darkness…that is a lie and you are not practicing truth…just as John the apostle has taught here in 1st John 1.

Live as you wish...it is up to you...as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment...that speaks loudly to the sinning sinner who sins...who also proclaims they are in the "light."

Redd…

The point in all of this that I was trying to make is that we, as Christians, are not perfect and though we have been cleansed and forgiven, we still sin. If you did not sin and loved God with all your might and soul and strength and loved tour neighbor as
yourself you would be perfect.

I have labored enough on the topic, which is why I shared a John MacArthur sermon.

How about some RC Sproul teaching on 1 John 1:

If We Confess Our Sins by RC Sproul​

1 JOHN 1:8–10
“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8–9).
Yesterday we saw that one of the tests John gives for authentic Christianity is that all those who claim to follow the God of light truly follow Him only if they walk in the light (1 John 1:6–7). This affirmation was necessary because the false teachers were claiming to believe in God even though they were walking in deeds of darkness. When someone’s life is characterized primarily by sin, we have good reason to assume that his profession is not genuine.
Of course this immediately raises a problem for us. Is John teaching that unless we are sinless and perfect we do not truly belong to Christ? How righteous do we have to be before we know we are truly in the light?
Today’s passage sheds light on these questions by letting us know that even true Christians will continue to struggle with sin. John tells us in 1:8 that if we claim to have no sin, we have deceived ourselves and the truth is not in us. Though we will grow in holiness, it will not be until after our deaths when we will be completely free from sin.
It appears that the false teachers John has in mind were not only unconcerned with the dark deeds they were performing, they also claimed to be without sin altogether. But such a denial only further evidenced their lack of authentic faith. In this section, John tells us the Christian life is in one sense a life lived in tension. On the one hand, believers will live such good lives that it can be said we walk in the light (vv. 6–7). On the other hand, truly walking in the light will clearly reveal to us the reality of remaining sin, reminding us of our need for repentance and forgiveness (vv. 8, 10).
True Christians will walk in the light of God’s will and avoid sin, though never perfectly. That we still struggle with sin does not mean we lack true faith, for God is always faithful and just to forgive us of our sins if we turn to Him in repentance (v. 9). Walking in the light does not mean we will be free from sin. Rather, it means we are no longer slaves to sin (Rom. 6:17–19). This is evidenced as we, being concerned with conforming to the image of Christ, become distressed whenever we do sin and thus turn to the Savior for cleansing.

Coram Deo​

First John 1 reminds us that there is tension in the life of the believer, for just as believers will walk in holiness they will also sin. This is not a contradiction, for believers are not slaves to both holiness and sin. Christians are slaves only to holiness who, because of weakness, sometimes forget their true Master and sin. Thankfully, when this occurs, we can turn to Christ for cleansing! If you repent when you sin, know that you are a true believer."

It seems that this antinomian mindset of sinlessness wants complete impunity on earth and in heaven. Well, we have forgiveness in heaven and have a place waiting for us, but there still will be consequences for our actions on earth until we die.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Maybe your concept of "all sin" is lacking something important. All sin means past present AND future sins. So it is an ongoing process. Spiritually cleansed completely and daily from there on. Sanctification means we are set apart, but also the " being transformed into the likeness of Christ" IS A PROCESS. Be transformed in the renewing of your mind. We learn the WAY and the TRUTH gradually - don't we? God brings us through many experiences in life to instill this truth - He doesn't give it to us all at once ... "Here ya go, you're a new creature now ... walk in the Spirit perfectly!' No.
This is what I learned long ago. He died for our sins, not only past, but ones we haven't committed yet. All sins must be past, oresent and future fir wveryone who believes. This makes sense to me since this happened 1925 years before I was born.
The Holy Spirit Who live in us, convicts us of sin! He counsels us, guides us and helps us navigate through this dark world _ "as we walk in HIS LIGHT.
I think I am done ... nothing more I can say. Take care.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Nobody's Perfect

Nobody's perfect. That truth, which ought to make us tremble before a God who is holy, holy, holy, is usually invoked to excuse sinful behavior. How often do we hear people brush aside their own w

www.gty.org

 

[Reddsta]

Yes and No. The wrath of God is poured out during the bowls. That is the only time anything is poured out. God's wrath is not poured out during the trumpets. His Orge is against Babylon to answer the 5th seal martyrs. And if you think there is wrath in the seals, I'll be happy to provide 5 biblical reasons why wrath doesn't exist in the seals. And we should not confuse widespread persecution (great tribulation) with God's wrath. They are 2 completely different words that are not related.

Fantastic post "No Pre-TB"!

I am looking forward the "5 biblical reasons why wrath doesn't exist in the seals"

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

I think I am done ... nothing more I can say. Take care.

Yes...you are Ronald...I will and the same to you

Redd...

 

[Timtofly]

Secondly, if we were to be changed immortal at a Pre-trib rapture, why would we have to leave earth? God's wrath doesn't affect immortals does it? So what purpose is it to leave earth if you are changed? With that in mind, I'd like to ask you how you interpret this passage:

One could also ask, why not just give all a new body, and let them continue to live among us dead sinners on the earth?

Living on earth with eternal life is not the point, nor should the redeemed continue to live on the earth ever again.

The final harvest is the removal of all souls from the earth. The church just happens to be the first harvest, not the last harvest, as you all post the church as the last harvest.

 

[Reddsta]

Ronald I know that you are done…that is fine it was always your choice…you like so many others as it appears don’t really read thoroughly anyways…if you say no more I understand…I however am not done. This subject is of utmost importance to our Lord and His Father…far too important to simply leave it here as you have Ronald.

I can see the confusion of modern “religianity” which to me is “Christianity” of any and all flavors and denominations. It’s that which can be defined by the “structure” or “institution”…basically defined…there is no “Father Son” relationship in the “institution.”

I understand that the Father is calling His own “out” of her…she is the harlot and there are yet sons of God in her womb…that is why I am here in the forum…to help them see their way out of her. The following is a teaching which is nearly unheard of in church life. Are you too busy to hear from God whether it is in “affirmation” of you or leads you to the “conviction” of His love? Charge forth in your own love courage…or retreat in pride and immaturity…it has always been up to you.

It’s a bit of read…but it’s an eye opener and it won’t hurt the son of God at all.

The Holy Spirit Who live in us, convicts us of sin! He counsels us, guides us and helps us navigate through this dark world _ "as we walk in HIS LIGHT.

“Us” who is us? The Holy Spirit convicts “US” of sin…as R.D. Bruno teaches…and it is part and parcel to the failed doctrine of “I am a sinner saved by grace.” The question here is really quite obvious, right? If we are “saved by grace through faith in God” from “sin and death” but remain as “sin or sinners” as the axiom goes…then what is it that was actually saved?

Being a “sinner” is not the same as being a “saint”…this is of the most basic principles of the Kingdom of God…No? One should clearly see that it is one or the other. If this were not the case…”sinners are saints and saints are sinners”…well…you can surely see the challenge presented in that scenario. Do I have to actually spell it out?

“The Holy Spirit Who live in us, convicts us of sin!”…as R.D Bruno presents it…and for those who ascribe to that thinking…this creates a rather important challenge for you. The use of the word “Us” as applied in this statement is inferring that it applies to the “Body of Christ.” Here in lies the challenge…the Lord describes the Holy Spirits “target” for the “convicting of sin” in reference to the “world.”

The confusion over all of this should be coming more obvious. I say this because this false belief structure conflates the “Body of Christ” (Saints) with the “world” (sinners.) Here once again we are presented with a very “real and eternal separation” between the two.

I say that because John reportedly heard the Lord Yahshua teach…in specific reference to the coming Holy Spirit…”And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me”…the world in the mind of a son of God should be…that which is trapped in sin…”sinners”…who are thereby condemned to death.

Death here is being defined as a “separation from eternal life with God” which began all the way back in the Garden of Eden. “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.”

I hear the Lord Yahshua saying…the Holy Spirit will “convict the “world” of its sin…and unbelief”…and the “world” He is referencing is the kingdom of “darkness”…clearly.

Similarly… for those who respond to the “convicting of sin and unbelief” that the Holy Spirit presents to their spirits and souls…the doors of repentance are opened and their confession of Yahshua as Lord and Savior…leads to the end of a life of dead works (sin)…and typically leads to the applying of the “blood of the Lamb” to their…sin, condemnation and fear of death…that is how God sees it.

This is what is called God’s “grace” and it is afforded to these as a result of His “love for His own”…and they are then “saved” from “ALL sin and unrighteousness” so they no longer need to live in the fear and condemnation that sin and death present. The “old nature – carnal - darkness” gives way to the “new nature – Spirit - Light” and this one is “born again” as an infant into the House of God their Father.

As a “blood bought child/son of God” one is not perfect…however they are on their way to perfection...in fact it is the only way to perfection. They never again need to respond to the condemnation of the devil…because they are no longer seen as “sinners” in the eyes of their Lord…who Himself purchased them from their “sin.”

Those who belong to the Lord Yahshua Christ live in the house of His Father…this was all setup and implemented by Yahshua Himself. The “child of God” is to grow up into a “son of God” under the loving kindness of the Father of creation. This is the most intimate “breath by breath…moment by moment” relationship between a very adoring Father and His unceasing desire for His precious son.

The “son” to whom I refer is the “corporate son” made up of people from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. The “son of God” is known as “Christ…comprised of Head (Yahshua) and Body (His people). When the Father looks at “us who are in Christ”…He sees “Christ” His son…this by extension includes all that are “in Christ”…who is in the Father. Simply put…there is no “sin” in that house…there could never be…if there were sin in the house of God then the blood of the Lamb of God is rendered powerless.

What about when a “child or son of God” fails…you ask? This loving God and Father is all about teaching and training His beloved sons how to go about “living a righteous and holy life” in His house, and in His unceasing presence.

As necessary He disciplines them…in love…we are patiently taught how to become like our Father over time…and…we are to mature to be like Him…He has an inheritance both in us…and for us.

When you compare that…to living as an orphan and slave in the house of the dragon…where you can do nothing “right” because of sin…and as a result you are continually threatened with the fear of death because of your debt of sin its impending eternal condemnation…it becomes imperative that one realize the difference between those who are or claim to be “sinners” and those in whom the Fathers love is fully vested.

This may assist you in your journey…”You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?” (Heb 12:4-7 NASB)

This simply has nothing to do with the issue of “sin” for these in whom the Lord loves and dwells. This is the recipe for the maturing of His sons…He is “perfecting” them and one day He will be done…they will be perfect. He sees them all as “His Christ” because they are “His Christ His Son” for which creation was brought forth…in abundance to support.

Is it clear to you yet?

This is the separating of the “wheat and the tare” of the “sheep and the goats” of the “5 wise virgins and the 5 foolish virgins” defined as the “enmity” that God put between the “seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman” (Genesis 3:15) We are talking about the God ordained separation between the son of God and the sons of Satan.

Redd…

 

[Reddsta]

Secondly, if we were to be changed immortal at a Pre-trib rapture, why would we have to leave earth? God's wrath doesn't affect immortals does it? So what purpose is it to leave earth if you are changed? With that in mind, I'd like to ask you how you interpret this passage:

1 Thess 5
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

If we are children of the day, and the day of the Lord will not overtake us, why do some say we won't be on earth? The day of the Lord only overtakes those in darkness, not those in the light. So as long as you remain in the light, you will not be caught off guard suggesting we will be here.

Well done "No Pre-TB"...well done.

Tatwo...

 

[Reddsta]

Jesus is not "the Father In creation."
Nor is He " the Holy Spirit in regeneration."

Well Rebuilder 454…I have no desire to add to your ignorance any antagonism…so with a pure heart and humble desire I’ll share this with you. You probably know what I have posted here…however one needs revelation from the Holy Spirit in order to “understand" what it means.

"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24 NASB)

“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” (Isa 9:6 NASB)

The “child” to be born is the “son” who is to be given…this speaks “only” of Yahshua…Isaiah adds these little facts as well…that this “Child, Son” is also the “mighty God and the eternal Father.”

“yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” (1Co 8:6 NASB)

Even a cursory look at this passage would show that there is…

One God the Father - from whom are all things and we exist for Him
One Lord, Jesus Christ - by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
The words “from & by” are from the same Greek word…the following descriptions are the same as well…this corroborates with the description Isaiah gave…which is that the Son of God is also the God the Father. This is a Spirit reality Rebuilder 454.

“He is the image of the invisible God, [Yahshua] the firstborn of all creation. For by Him [Yahshua] all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him [Yahshua] and for Him. [Yahshua] He [Yahshua] is before all things, and in Him [Yahshua] all things hold together. He [Yahshua] is also head of the body, the church; and He [Yahshua] is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself [Yahshua] will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, [Yahshua] and through Him [Yahshua] to reconcile all things to Himself, [Yahshua] having made peace through the blood of His [Yahshua] cross; through Him, [Yahshua] I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.” (Col 1:15-20 NASB)

The obvious implication here is that in Yahshua is the Spirit of God the Father of creation. Which is what it says in Colossians 2:9…”For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,” speaking of the Holy Spirit for God is One Spirit.

“There is one body[Christ] and one Spirit,[Holy Spirit] just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, [Yahshua] one faith, one baptism, one God and Father [Yahshua] of all who is over all and through all and in all.” (Eph 4:4-6 NASB)

Here it says…there is only “One Body of Christ” and it has only “One Holy Spirit of God”...there is only ”One Lord Yahshua”…who is the One Spirit of the “One God and Father”…who is “over all…through all…and in all.” In terms of the “Body of Christ” there is only One Spirit…the Holy Spirit…who is in all.

"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, (John 15:26 NASB)

Yahshua is God the Father of creation
Yahshua is the Son of God in redemption
Yahshua is the Holy Spirit of God in regeneration or reconciliation.

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

Stop placing yourself in a spiritual pedestal claiming you have superior insight.

Superior to whom…you? I do not rely upon religious human reasoning like most Rebuilder 454…it’s called “revelation” from the “Holy Spirit”…this in regard to the Son of God, scripture and my personal life.

Your assessment of me and my character…someone you don’t even know…along with your flippant comments…reflects an accurate picture for me…of your actual level of spiritual maturity. If we have any further interactions…I will be sure to adjust as you request.

Redd...

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Inyou like so many others as it appears don’t really read thoroughly anyways

A false misrepresentation. I am retired and read 4-5 hours/day ... even posts I learn nothing from. Did you read the quotes from John MacAthur and RC Sproul? No, I guess yoi reject their scholarship as you did most "Christianity"?

I understand that the Father is calling His own “out” of her…she is the harlot and there are yet sons of God in her womb…

A wrong perspective. God calls his sheep, who are unbelievers at the time. Once they are believers, they do not fornicate with the whore.

Us” who is us? The Holy Spirit convicts “US” of sin…as R.D. Bruno teaches…and it is part and parcel to the failed doctrine of “I am a sinner saved by grace.”

John and Paul and James (actually they all did) admit this fact as do most Christians
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."
1 John 1:8-10

It is not only self-delusion to believe in one’s own sinlessness, but it is a personal attack on God’s character. God’s evaluation of humanity is that we are such hopeless sinners that only a sinless saviour from heaven could rescue us. And so evangelicals have long described themselves as ‘forgiven sinners’, ‘sinners saved by grace’, and ‘not good, just forgiven’. The point is to highlight God’s grace in saving us.

Romans 7 :22-25 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am!

1 Tim. 1:15
This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

James 5:14-16 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Confess your
trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

The question here is really quite obvious, right? If we are “saved by grace through faith in God” from “sin and death” but remain as “sin or sinners” as the axiom goes…then what is it that was actually saved?

Saved from the penalty of sin, saved from death.

Romans 7 :22-25 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am!

Evidently Reddsta has one over on Paul and the rest of us:
>>> 1 Tim. 1:15
This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. <<<

James 5:14-16 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Confess your
trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.


In the Lord's Prayer:
" ... Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors."

What debts do we owe God?

Debts: not financial, they are sins, trespasses, wrongs, broken promises, lies, coveting, stealing, dishonor, etc.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Rom.3:23

>Do you have the glory of God? Not yet. We qre not glorified yet - not until we die!

"since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law". ROM. 3:30-31

Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. Eph. 4:26-27

If you think your do not sin, the what grieves the Spirit?

The Holy Spirit Who live in us, convicts us of sin!”…as R.D Bruno presents it…

When a Christian does something wrong, a transgression against God or anyone, they are convicted. How? One feels guilty after we realized our wrong - because we are guilty! The Law is written in your hearts and mind and so some say the conscience convicts you ... I say the Holy Spirit brings the truth and righteousness to shed light on your error.

Heb 12:5-7

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?

>>Why do we discipline children? They do things wrong, so we correct them. Likewise, God chastises us for doing wrong.
>>Or do YOU believe He disciplines and chastises you for doing good.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Superior to whom…you? I do not rely upon religious human reasoning like most Rebuilder 454…it’s called “revelation” from the “Holy Spirit”…this in regard to the Son of God, scripture and my personal life.

Your assessment of me and my character…someone you don’t even know…along with your flippant comments…reflects an accurate picture for me…of your actual level of spiritual maturity. If we have any further interactions…Iare a team to will be sure to adjust as you request.

Redd...

When you call me ignorant and immature AND SUGGEST you and the Holy Spirit are a team outside of myself , you AUTOMATICALLY place yourself as some superior entity.
Like I said...STOP PLACING yourself on some pedestal of superiority.
It is difficult to discuss the topic when you pull name calling as part of your "teaching".

Oh the irony of your last entry.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Well Rebuilder 454…I have no desire to add to your ignorance any antagonism…so with a pure heart and humble desire I’ll share this with you. You probably know what I have posted here…however one needs revelation from the Holy Spirit in order to “understand" what it means.

"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24 NASB)

“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” (Isa 9:6 NASB)

The “child” to be born is the “son” who is to be given…this speaks “only” of Yahshua…Isaiah adds these little facts as well…that this “Child, Son” is also the “mighty God and the eternal Father.”

“yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” (1Co 8:6 NASB)

Even a cursory look at this passage would show that there is…

One God the Father - from whom are all things and we exist for Him
One Lord, Jesus Christ - by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
The words “from & by” are from the same Greek word…the following descriptions are the same as well…this corroborates with the description Isaiah gave…which is that the Son of God is also the God the Father. This is a Spirit reality Rebuilder 454.

“He is the image of the invisible God, [Yahshua] the firstborn of all creation. For by Him [Yahshua] all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him [Yahshua] and for Him. [Yahshua] He [Yahshua] is before all things, and in Him [Yahshua] all things hold together. He [Yahshua] is also head of the body, the church; and He [Yahshua] is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself [Yahshua] will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, [Yahshua] and through Him [Yahshua] to reconcile all things to Himself, [Yahshua] having made peace through the blood of His [Yahshua] cross; through Him, [Yahshua] I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.” (Col 1:15-20 NASB)

The obvious implication here is that in Yahshua is the Spirit of God the Father of creation. Which is what it says in Colossians 2:9…”For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,” speaking of the Holy Spirit for God is One Spirit.

“There is one body[Christ] and one Spirit,[Holy Spirit] just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, [Yahshua] one faith, one baptism, one God and Father [Yahshua] of all who is over all and through all and in all.” (Eph 4:4-6 NASB)

Here it says…there is only “One Body of Christ” and it has only “One Holy Spirit of God”...there is only ”One Lord Yahshua”…who is the One Spirit of the “One God and Father”…who is “over all…through all…and in all.” In terms of the “Body of Christ” there is only One Spirit…the Holy Spirit…who is in all.

"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, (John 15:26 NASB)

Yahshua is God the Father of creation
Yahshua is the Son of God in redemption
Yahshua is the Holy Spirit of God in regeneration or reconciliation.

Redd...

It is amazing how arrogant you got from me correcting you.
Could you please drop the arrogance ,name calling, and spirit of superiority and retry?
Are you Jesus only or oneness faith?

 

[Reddsta]

Jesus is not "the Father In creation."
Nor is He " the Holy Spirit in regeneration."
Stop placing yourself in a spiritual pedestal claiming you have superior insight.

Look rebuilder...this is how you entered the conversation...in accusation of me...and a few other bros in the thread...I do not ever recall "talking" to you.

Superior to whom…you? I do not rely upon religious human reasoning like most Rebuilder 454…it’s called “revelation” from the “Holy Spirit”…this in regard to the Son of God, scripture and my personal life.

Your assessment of me and my character…someone you don’t even know…along with your flippant comments…reflects an accurate picture for me…of your actual level of spiritual maturity. If we have any further interactions…I will be sure to adjust as you request.

When you call me ignorant and immature AND SUGGEST you and the Holy Spirit are a team outside of myself , you AUTOMATICALLY place yourself as some superior entity.
Like I said...STOP PLACING yourself on some pedestal of superiority.

Your response here to my quote from above is clearly misrepresented...by you...I did not call you ignorant nor immature...those are your words. You self deprecate...to try to bring folks to your level...and blame others...while demanding repeatedly that we do as you say...or in your eyes we are bad...putting it simply. "Ok so whatever dude?" It is so meaningless...needless and unnecessary really...I never cared what you thought of me or anyone else rebuilder...and I care less now if you want to act this way.

I am sorry that are so insecure as to think anyone who might be strong in their conviction is a somehow a threat to you...verses being a brother.

Redd...

 

[rebuilder 454]

Look rebuilder...this is how you entered the conversation...in accusation of me...and a few other bros in the thread...I do not ever recall "talking" to you.



Your response here to my quote from above is clearly misrepresented...by you...I did not call you ignorant nor immature...those are your words. You self deprecate...to try to bring folks to your level...and blame others...while demanding repeatedly that we do as you say...or in your eyes we are bad...putting it simply. "Ok so whatever dude?" It is so meaningless...needless and unnecessary really...I never cared what you thought of me or anyone else rebuilder...and I care less now if you want to act this way.

I am sorry that are so insecure as to think anyone who might be strong in their conviction is a somehow a threat to you...verses being a brother.

Redd...

insecure ???
Stop accusing the brethren please