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A Systematic Study of the Rapture through the use of Bible Scriptures

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by thekingdomkeys, Jan 17, 2012.

  1. thekingdomkeys

    thekingdomkeys New Member

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    So Justinian 1, go ahead and list the "Day" scripture verses (pertinent to the rapture doctrine) that you believe "does not always mean the end of the world" and give your reasons why you support this belief. Once we see your verses we can all begin to discuss them. If we don't hear back from you, we will need to move forward.
    Regards, Thekingdomkeys
     
  2. thekingdomkeys

    thekingdomkeys New Member

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    I'm glad that you are enjoying this thread Steve.
    thekingdomkeys
     
  3. thekingdomkeys

    thekingdomkeys New Member

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    A systematic Study of the Rapture through the use of Scriptures from the Bible:
    OK, let me try to summarize what we have been able to glean from our first word/phrase ("Day") under discussion concerning the doctrine of the "rapture" before we move on to our second word/phrase. We are trying to begin to paint a picture of this doctrine. This is everyones chance who might not agree with the conclusions drawn so far, to voice their disagreement. Keep in mind that we are not going to let this Bible discussion turn into a "he said, she said" verbal boxing match where each person trys to out yell the other. We are going to attack this study through the use of civil discourse. So if you have some contentions against these study findings, please bring them up with scriptures supporting your opposing stand. Otherwise we will have to ignor the responses and move on.

    OK, so far we have looked at the "Day of Christ"and the "Day of the Lord" and the "Last Day" (that TWC brought to our attention). We were trying to discern whether or not these 3 phrases represent the same day/event or if they represent separate day/events with a 7-year tribulation period between the "Days". Dealing with the doctrines of the “Rapture” and the “Second Coming”, I listed (in previous posts) most of the “Day of Christ” and “Day of the Lord” and "Last Day" verses which are found in the Bible.

    Let's start with what can we probably all agree on? Also remember that TWC pointed out that “Those who see the "Day of the Lord" and the "Day of Christ" as being two separate events cite the former as being about judgment upon unbelievers and the latter as the reward for believers.”I would also venture to guess that all viewpoints concerning this doctrine can agree that the "Day of the Lord" represents a period of judgment upon the Lord's return following the 7-year tribulation period. But, are there 2 returns of Christ or 1 ("Day of Christ" and then the "Day of the Lord" and the "Last Day")? I would also be pretty confindent to guess that most all of us believe that the "Day of Christ" passages refer to the rapture (being "caught up"), let me know why you disagree if you do and remember to use scriptures. But the pretribulation rapture folks take it a step further (rightly or wrongly?) by believing that there are 2 returns, while the post-tribulation rapture folks believe that there is only 1 return. They believe that the "Day of Christ" represents a pretribulation rapture event which they believe is followed by a 7-year tribulation period. They believe that after the tribulation will come the "Day of the Lord" and the "Last Day" (same event). But (tell me if I'm wrong here), logic would preclude that the "Days" would all occur on the same "Day" unless there are some passages that dictate otherwise. Does everyone agree with that statement? Remember we must use scripture to support our belief systems (doctrines). If everyone agrees, then where are these supporting passages? Where in the scriptures does it indicate that the “Day of Christ” will occur before the Tribulation, representing a separate day/event? Where is the scriptures does it state that the “Day of the Lord” is a different “Day” than the "Day of Christ"?

    To the contrary, scriptures seem to be indicating just the opposite, that both "Days" are in fact the same "Day". Notice in the 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 passage (see below) which tells us when "Day of Christ" will happen. This one might possibly shed more light on whether or not the Rapture happens before the Tribulation or after the Tribulation, since it contains a lot of other words and phrases that might become key words in future word/phrases studies in this thread. Words and phrases like “falling away” first, and the “man of sin” be revealed. But unfortunately, we can’t look at the phrases “falling away” or “man of sin” too deeply just yet, because we are still covering our first phrase the “Day”. We might decide to make “falling away” (apostasy) the next word/phrase that we introduce to our study. The passage tells us that the "Day of Christ" (rapture event) will occur after there comes a "falling away first" (apostasty). Many would argue that that isn't a problem since this apostasy can easily happen before the tribulation period and might be actually ocurring right now. Well this is true, but what about the other issue of the revealing of the "man of sin" (antichrist)? Most all would agree that the "man of sin" is to be revealed during the tribulation period right? So how can the "Day of Christ" (rapture) occur prior to the tribulation and the antichrist, when 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 states it will happen after?

    2 Thessalonians 2:2-4
    [sup]2[/sup]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    [sup]3[/sup]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    [sup]4[/sup]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    How about the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4 passage? We probably all agree that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is a passage dealing with the rapture right? Tell me if you disagree and remember to use scripture to support your reasons why. Now notice that 1 Thessalonians 5:4 states that "that day" (the rapture) should overtake us like a thief. Notice also that the Bible calls this "Day" in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 the "Day of the Lord" and tells us that Christ will come as a "thief in the night" (classic rapture verbage right?). Notice also in verse 3 that it says that it won't be a time of "peace and safety" but a time of sudden destruction (judgment), which is seemingly contrary to the pretribulation rapture folks notion that the rapture will occur on a "Day" of and without judgment.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4
    [sup]13[/sup]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    [sup]14[/sup]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    [sup]15[/sup]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    [sup]16[/sup]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    [sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    [sup]18[/sup]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
    [sup]1[/sup]But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    [sup]2[/sup]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    [sup]3[/sup]For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    [sup]4[/sup]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    Now let’s look at three “Day” passages (directly below) from First and Second Corinthians. These passages don’t use the wording “Day of Christ” or “Day of our Lord” but use the phraseology “day of the Lord Jesus”. But maybe more importantly, are there any possible key words/phrases that will aid us in this systematic study? How about “gathered together” in the (1 Corinthians 5:4-5) passage? Do we all agree (or not?) that the “gathered together” in this passage is talking about being “caught up” (the rapture)? But we can’t talk about passages containing the “gathering” just yet. Maybe the “gathering” should be the next colored word in this study?

    It’s interesting that the wording in these three passages (day of the Lord Jesus) seems to combine the wording of the “Day of Christ” and the “Day of our Lord”. Does that indicate to us that both “Days” are in fact one “Day” and one event?

    But some verses actually seem to even connect the dots for us, by encompass both phraseologies (the "Day of Christ"and the "Day of the Lord") together in the same verse. Seemingly supporting that both "Days" are one in the same!

    Corinthians 1:8
    [sup]8[/sup]Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 5:4-5
    [sup]4[/sup]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    [sup]5[/sup]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    2 Corinthians 1:14
    [sup]14[/sup]As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    Now concerning the phrase the “Last Day” and see if we can determine if it represents either the “Day of Christ”, the “Day of the Lord” or if we can determine if all 3 “Days” (“Day of Christ”, “Day of the Lord” and the “Last Day”) are all the same “Day” and event. One immediate question that strikes me is that if the “Day” of the rapture, being “caught up” (“Day of Christ”), is to take place 7 years before the next “Day” (“Day of the Lord”), how can we justify calling the "Day of Christ" (the believers rapture), the “Last Day”? For if the “Day of Christ” and the “Day of the Lord” are separate “Days” (before and after the tribulation) the “Day of the Lord” rather than the “Day of Christ” would have to represent the “Last Day” right? These are the types of questions that we need to be able to have an answer for correct?

    John 11:23-24
    “Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

    Notice (passage above) that Jesus didn’t dispute with Martha about the rapture (resurrection for the believers) was to take place on the “Last Day”, so we have to assume (tell me if I am wrong here) that the rapture will take place on the “Last Day”. Notice (passage below) that Jesus also stated that the believers resurrection (raise him up) would occur on the “Last Day”.

    John 6:39-54
    “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    John 7:37
    “In the last day, that great day of the "feast", Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.”

    Notice that the “Last Day” (above verse) is tied to the “feast” (“marriage supper of the Lamb” and the “banquet” of TWC’s Luke 14:13-14 passage) which will/can be another future area of discussion. Now possibly the most convincing argument for the three “Days” (“Day of Christ”, “Day of the Lord” and the “Last Day”) being one in the same “Day” and event is the passage directly below. It plainly tells us that the “Last Day” will be a “Day” of judgment for the non-believers when other passages (that we have already looked at), clearly state that the “resurrection” (rapture) will take place on the “Last Day”. Folks we (as Christians) need to have answers for these questions, otherwise we will allow our biases to turn dogmatic.

    John 12:47-48
    “And if any man hear my words, and believe not (unbelievers), I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him (unbeliever)in the last day.”

    Once we finish (everyone that desires to speak has said their piece) discussing the “Day”, I was planning on moving next to the word/phrase “thief” from 2 Peter 3:10 that TWC cited. This would make a nice transition from the “Day” since it actually contains the phrase “Day of the Lord” within the passage: “But the day of the Lord will come like a “thief”.” But I’m starting to think maybe should pursue the word “resurrection” (from TWC’s passages) as our next colored word/phrase to move into next. Remember, I am only color coding the words, because I am attempting to paint a picture.

    Feel free to chime in on the “Day” over the next day (no pun intended, ha, ha) or two before we move on to “resurrection”.

    The next time that I chime in I will list all of the proofs that we have seemingly been able to glean from the “Day” scriptures so far? And discuss if the scriptures seem to be stating that there are 1 “Day” or 2. We have many more painted topics (words/phrases) to cover, but have the scriptures been able to paint a picture of the timing of the “rapture” just by discussing the “Day”?


    So it seems to appear that we have been able to glean from the scriptures just using our first word/phrase "Day" that the "Day of Christ"and the "Day of the Lord" and the "Last Day" are all referring to the same day ...a onetime return of the Lord to rapture His saints (believers) and judge unbelievers. If you disagree please show your viewpoint from the scriptures and we will continue the discussion, otherwise we will be moving to the next word/phrase.
    Regards, Thekingdomkeys
     
  4. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, everyone.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but has anyone considered that the "Day of the LORD" is different than the "Day of the Lord?" "Day of the LORD" is the "Yowm YHVH" in Hebrew, but the "Day of the Lord" is the "Day of the Master" and the "Day of OUR Lord" is the "Day of OUR Master (Yeshua` haMashiach)," which would be the same as the "Day of haMashiach" or the "Day of the Messiah" or the "Day of Christ!" This is ONLY clear is a few different versions of the OT and has NEVER been clear in the NT!
     
  5. PropphecyStudent

    PropphecyStudent New Member

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    Hi Thekingdomkeys,

    If the "day" were code for "rapture", then there's an awful lot of rapturing in the Bible. Do you think there may actually be multiple references to multiple days and multiple events?


    The greater point being, -- one can parse what the "meaning of is is". However, if Scripture says plainly, then shouldn't we believe the plain text, instead of all this parsing?
     
  6. thekingdomkeys

    thekingdomkeys New Member

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    ShalomPropphecyStudent, I am not fully sure that I follow what you are saying here (sometimes I am a little slow, ha, ha). I think you are just pointing out that in the original languages (Hebrew, Greek etc) that different forms of the name of God are used, correct? But you aren't trying to demonstrate that there is a distinction of two separate "Days" on both sides of the tribulation period are you? Let me know if I am not following correctly.
    Regards, thekingdomkeys
     
  7. thekingdomkeys

    thekingdomkeys New Member

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    OOPS! in my last posting I meant to address it to Retrobyter rather than PropphecyStudent ...oh well.

    This one is to PropphecyStudent: Your post might have been for Retrobyter vice me. But I'll chime in too. Personnally (I might be wrong here), I tend to believe that the "Day" isn't a code for the rapture of the believers or the judgment of the nonbelievers. But, I tend to believe that the "Day of Christ" represents the code for rapture, being "caught up" for believers and the "Day of the Lord" represents the code for judgment of the nonbelievers. And if these words/phrases are coded, then what I am trying to say is that they represent different events, but occur on the same physical "Day". But keep in mind that Paul wrote the majority of the "Day of Christ" passages in the NT and the majority of the "Day of the Lord" passages are from various OT writers.

    But the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4 passage is a NT passage written by Paul, where he initially talks about the rapture of the believers (verses 4:13-18) and he uses the "coming of the Lord" vice "Day of Christ" to describe the rapture. Then when describing the judgment of the nonbelievers (verses 5:1-4) Paul does use the OT "day of the Lord " verbage.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4
    [sup]13[/sup]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    [sup]14[/sup]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    [sup]15[/sup]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    [sup]16[/sup]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    [sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    [sup]18[/sup]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
    [sup]1[/sup]But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    [sup]2[/sup]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    [sup]3[/sup]For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    [sup]4[/sup]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    thekingdomkeys
     
  8. PropphecyStudent

    PropphecyStudent New Member

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    Hi Thekindgomkeys,

    Now notice that 1 Thessalonians 5:4 states that "that day" (the rapture) should overtake us like a thief.


    [sup]1[/sup] Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, [sup]2[/sup] for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. [sup]3[/sup] While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
    [sup]4[/sup] But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. [sup]5[/sup] You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. [sup]6[/sup] So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. [sup]7[/sup] For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. [sup]8[/sup] But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. [sup]9[/sup] For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. [sup]10[/sup] He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. [sup]11[/sup] Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.


    ~Rapture~? Where does this text say ANYTHING about a ~rapture~? Just because Jesus returns to judge the earth, doesn't mean it's inherently a ~rapture~ event. Maybe he already came prior to this depiction, or possibly shall come subsequent to this depiction. Does it really say ~rapture~, or it this a presumption because it has the ~code-word~ "day"? (I think I know this answer ... )
     
  9. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, again, brothers and sisters.

    Also, another thought came to mind:

    We know that it is obvious that most of the time a "day" refers to a normal 24-hour rotation of the earth with respect to the sun. HOWEVER, a "day" may also refer to the time one portion of the earth is exposed to the sun, the "daylight hours," as in a "day and night cycle" or a "light and dark cycle."

    With that in mind, remember the descriptions of Yeshua` in His glorified form:

    Matthew 16:27-17:13
    16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
    28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
    17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
    3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
    6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
    7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
    8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
    9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
    10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
    11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
    12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
    13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
    KJV

    Mark 8:38-9:13
    38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
    9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
    2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
    3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
    4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
    5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
    7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
    8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
    9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
    10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
    11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?
    12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
    13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.
    KJV

    Luke 9:26-36
    26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
    27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
    28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
    29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
    30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
    31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
    32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
    33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
    34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
    35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
    36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
    KJV

    Hebrews 1:1-4
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
    4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    KJV

    Revelation 1:10-16
    10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
    11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
    12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
    13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
    14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
    15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
    16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
    KJV

    Revelation 22:3-5
    3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
    4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
    5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
    KJV

    Yeshua`s glory is a literal, blinding light that rivels the sun in its brightness!

    So, if He is reigning for a thousand years (at least! - Revelation 20:1-7), then there will not be a night wherever He is reigning for a thousand years! Thus, a day could LITERALLY be a thousand years long, at least in the vicinity of His throne!

    Shalom, thekingdomkeys.

    Well, I'm simply saying that there are more than just two phrases, and that some of the phrases are equivalent despite the fact that the same words aren't used. A dichotomy of phrases is not that "cut and dry." Besides, as I just got done saying, it's possible that a "day" could last for a thousand years because He is the "Sun of Righteousness!"
     
  10. thekingdomkeys

    thekingdomkeys New Member

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    The "Last Day" passages (see below) really seem to gell everything together related to this doctrine, in my eyes. These "Last Day" passages state that the resurrection (rapture) will take place on the "Last Day". So here's the 64 million dollar question for all of us. If the rapture is to take place 7 years before the "Last Day" (in other words prior to the tribulation) how can it be known as the "Last Day"? But maybe just importantly, notice that the John 12:47-48 passage that the nonbelievers will also be judged on the "Last Day". So this passage seems to be saying (unlike the first 3 passages) that not only will the believers be resurrected on the "Last Day" (the "Day of Christ"), but the nonbelievers will be judged on the "Last Day" (the "Day of the Lord").

    John 6:39-54
    “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    John 7:37
    “In the last day, that great day of the "feast", Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.”

    John 11:23-24
    “Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

    John 12:47-48
    “And if any man hear my words, and believe not (unbelievers), I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him (unbeliever) in the last day.”

    I think I have finally decided to move to the "resurrection" as our next word/phrase for this study. I will try to open up the study to the new word/phrase in a day or two. Feell free to continue to talk about the "Day" in the mean time.
    Regards, thekingdomkeys
     
  11. thekingdomkeys

    thekingdomkeys New Member

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    OK Retrobyter, I think I am with you now and I agree. We have a number of writers in the Bible (O/T and N/T) that have discussed this "Day". And just in the KJV of the Bible there are a number of phraseology translations ("Day of Christ", "Day of the Lord", "Day of our Lord", "Day of our Lord Jesus" to mention a few) from the original languages. And what form of God's name phrase did the original languages intend? But I would speculate as example, that Paul's "Day of Christ" verbage always came from the same original Greek root words.

    And yes in the "Spiritual Code" the word "Day" represents 1,000 years and thus, the phrase "Last Days" (plural) represent several thousand years in this code language. For us (like me, ha, ha) that are creationists rather than evolutionists or thesistic evolutionists (another can of words for a different thread), we believe that the earth is approximately 7,000 years old rather that several billion years old. So if each spiritual "Day" represents 1,000 physical years, that would seem to indicate that we are indeed at the point in time when the 7th and "Last" Spiritual "Day of the Lord" is about to take place. So in the "physical" plane the "Day of the Lord" represents a 24-hour timeframe, but in the "spiritual" plane, the "Day of the Lord" will represent a 1,000 year period which will begin on the first "physical" plane "Day of the Lord".

    Also, if the "physical" "Day of the Lord" is to occur over the next so many years (in this generation's lifetime), then we can literally state that we are living in the "phyiscally" "Last Days". But think about this, we have all been told that the first generation believers thought or even said that they were living in the "Last Days" right? So is the Bible in error? No, it isn't in error because in the "spiritual" plane (Spiritual Code) the first generation believers were in fact living in the "Last Days"! Due to the fact that Christ was on this earth with his disciples approximately 2,000 years ago, in a "spiritual" sense, they were living on this earth in the "Last Days", since the last 2 thousand years of the 7 thousand years would be considered the last of those "spiritual" years right? So the Bible isn't in error at all, but rather it is our limited understanding of the Bible (when we just study the surface level of the Bible and not the hidden code layers of the Bible) that is in error!

    I liken the Bible to a pure white onion without blemish. People either love the taste or hate the taste of onions (God's Words - the Bible), ha, ha. But when we get into close proximity to onions (when we hear or read the Bible) it tends to make all of us cry ...we either cry tears of joy or tears of hate and scorn! But most of us Christians (those who claim to love white onions) spend all of our time trying to study and figure out the onion's transparent skin without ever peeling into all of the other hidden code level layers inside!
    thekingdomkeys
     
  12. thekingdomkeys

    thekingdomkeys New Member

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    Hi PropphecyStudent, you're correct in stating that it does not say that the "that day" of 1 Thessalonians 5:4 is the "rapture" event and in all reality the "that day" of this verse probably best represents the phraseology of the "Day of the Lord" (judgment) of verse 5:2. But do you agree that the preceeding verses (see below) of the preceeding chapter (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) represent the rapture? Most everyone does. So if they do represent the rapture, then don't we need to ask ourselves if the "that day" (verse 5:4) and the "day of the Lord" (verse 5:2) are pointing to the same "coming of the Lord" "Day" (representing the rapture) of verse 4:15? In other words, nowhere in this passage does it state or even allude to the fact that there will be 2 separate "Days" right? If anything, the passage seems to me to be saying to me that it is discussing 2 sides or events (the believer's ressurrection and the nonbeliever's judgment) of the same "Day". In other words, doesn't the passage seem to be saying that we will have one "Day", that will either come unawares to the ignorant, or come fully aware to the knowledgeable?

    And don't we need to ask ourselves the meaning of verse 5:1 ("But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.")? How would verse 5:1 have any meaning or relevance whatsoever if it was not a continuation of the thought, and the same "Day" of the 4:13-18 verses? Another curious thing about verses 5:2 and 5:4 is that that they state that the "Day" shouldn't overtake us as a "thief"/"thief in the night" (word/phraseology that we will hopefully study soon) ...the same phraseology that most pretribulation folk link with the rapture, correct? Haven't we all heard the pretribbers state that the Lord will rapture us away like a "thief in the night"?

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4
    [sup]13[/sup]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    [sup]14[/sup]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    [sup]15[/sup]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    [sup]16[/sup]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    [sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    [sup]18[/sup]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
    [sup]1[/sup]But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    [sup]2[/sup]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    [sup]3[/sup]For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    [sup]4[/sup]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    thekingdomkeys
     
  13. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, thekingdomkeys.

    Well, it's not just a "code" so to speak. It is a LITERAL daylight period! Up until the Messiah returns, a day is a normal day - a 24-hour rotation of the earth with approximately 12 hours (more or less) of darkness followed by approximately 12 hours of light. When the Messiah returns, at His throne's location upon the earth (Jerusalem), there will literally be no darkness for the next 1000 years, a 1000-year day!

    This affects what we do with certain Scriptures! We must then ask ourselves, "Does this verse have to do with the beginning of the 1000-year 'day' or the end of the 1000-year 'day?'" For instance, some have (IMO) erroneously said that 2 Peter 3:7-12 happen at the BEGINNING of the 1000-year period. I don't think so. When you compare Peter's passage with 1 Cor. 15:22-28 and Rev. 20:1-15; 21:1-2, I believe one should discover that 2 Peter 3:7-12 happen at the END of the 1000-year period just before the Eternal State in which the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth. See what I mean?
     
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