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A Systematic Study of the Rapture through the use of Bible Scriptures

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by thekingdomkeys, Jan 17, 2012.

  1. thekingdomkeys

    thekingdomkeys New Member

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    I am a new member of this forum and I know that you guys have created quite a few threads on the subject of the "Rapture" (being "caught up" to God), but I would like to start a new thread on the "Rapture" done in a little bit different fashion. I am hoping that we can dive into the subject matter with prayer and open-mindedness to such a degree that we can have a civil discourse and ultimately study to show ourselves approved and come to an overall consensus on the subject. I believe it is possible for Christians to learn the answers to all of the doctrines of the Bible, if we trust in the Lord, study to show ourselves approved and pray for answers to all of the questions put before us. Is it God's desire for us to know His Word and to know truth, or would He prefer that we remain ignorant of these things? Do you guys agree with this assessment? After all, there are only about 60 or 65 major doctrines in the Bible, so why should we believe that it is impossible for God to enable us to learn 60 things in our lifetime? I believe there is evidence to support (subject matter for a future thread?) that we are living in the last days, and in the time when God promised a Great Christian Revival to sweep the land. A time when it is prophesied that we will do greater things than Jesus did during his 3-year ministry! So if that day is just around the corner and God is going to equip us to do the Greater Things, shouldn't we also believe that God is going to lead us into all truth (the 60 to 65 Bible doctrines)? I hope we are in agreement on these things, but let's at least see if this system of study will work with one of the most controversial doctrines of the Bible - the "Rapture". For if most of us can come to an agreement on the end-times Bible doctrine, then we should be able to come to an agreement on all of the less controversial subject matters too, right?

    How many of you would consider yourself to be biased? I would argue that the vast majority of us are biased (including myself) and that "bias" in of itself is not a bad thing ...it simply indicates that we are using our nuggets ...that we are thinking and making educated decisions based upon our thought process! Being biased isn't wrong, but being dogmatic is! If we (including myself) aren't willing to change our biases if the facts dictate change, then we become dogmatic in our beliefs and are no longer open-minded. My charge to everyone is simply this. Let's tackle this debate and all other debates keeping this principle in mind. Let's form biases on dogmas but be willing to change our biases on dogma if and when the facts dictate change until we all come into all truth on all of the scriptures. This is the only way that all of us Christians will finally be able to come into all truth! Is that fair enough?

    At this point in time I don't even want to tell anyone my stance on when I believe the "rapture" will take place. I don't want to muddy up those waters at this time. But what I would like to do in this thread at this time, is to throw out some terms ...some Bible phrases to see if we all agree or disagree that these terms coincide with the "rapture". And if we agree, then I will add some more terms and so forth and so on, until we have a list of terms related to the timing of the rapture. Once we have a list of terms that the vast majority (those that aren't dogmatic) can agree with in regards to coinciding with the rapture, then we should be able to begin to paint a picture of when the rapture will actually take place. In other words, let's pursue this debate a little differently, let's begin this study with what we can agree upon rather than what we disagree upon! If we can't come to a consensus on the timeline on certain terms, then it makes no sense at all to me for us to enter into deeper waters, does it to you? Many/most threads start out as a fight on what we disagree about rather than what we agree about. How about we begin this debate with the opposite approach? This might all sound a little confusing now, but it will hopefully get easier in time, ha, ha.

    OK, I'm going to throw out the first two terms, and let's debate whether or not they represent the time of the rapture or not. We don't have to agree that they represent the time of the rapture - for maybe they don't. We all need to prove one way or another whether these terms represent the time of the rapture or not. No matter which side you take, please use scriptures to support your bias (belief system).

    OK, let's start with two Biblical phrases:

    The Day of Christ

    and

    The Day of the Lord

    Are either one or both of these Biblical days referring to the time of the Rapture? Yes or No? Use scriptures to support your stance.
    David Kenderes
    thekingdomkeys

    P.S. Are we allowed to list our email address in these threads?
     
  2. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I wouldn't recommend exchanging emails here; the Forum private messaging should be enough.

    The "day of Christ" phrase occurs 3 times in the New Testament (Philippians 1:10; 2:16, and 2 Thess.2:2). In all 3 cases it's about Christ's second coming and Millennium reign.

    In the 2 Thess.2:2 example, the Greek word rendered "Christ" is actually the word 'kurios', which means 'lord'. In all 3 cases it is pointing to the event of the "day of the Lord" Paul and Peter preached in reference to the Old Testament prophets.

    The "day of the Lord" phrase occurs 5 times in the New Testament, and is referring to events to occur with Christ's second coming and Millennium reign. It is in reference to the OT Scripture "day of the LORD" (KJV).

    Thus, we are to go back into the Old Testament prophets to understand more of the details of the events to occur on the day of Christ's return and His Millennium reign, in order to more fully understand what Paul and Peter were talking about, for that's where they were pulling from.
     
  3. thekingdomkeys

    thekingdomkeys New Member

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    OK, correct me if I am misquoting you here Veteran, but based on Veteran's study of the scriptures, it sounds like he believes that both phrases (the 'Day of Christ' and the 'Day of the Lord') both refer to Christ's 2nd coming and the start of the Millennial Kingdom. Does everyone (pre, mid or post-millennial rapture folks) else agree? I'll wait another day or two for more responses, before introducing some additional Bible phrases to this study.
    Regards, David
     
  4. TWC

    TWC New Member

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    It depends on what you're calling "the rapture".

    Matthew 24:29-31
    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    If this event is referred to as the rapture, then the events surrounding it coincide with the Day of the Lord events mentioned in the book of Joel.

    Joel 2:31
    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
     
  5. thekingdomkeys

    thekingdomkeys New Member

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    I understand your point here TWC, but if it is OK with you, let's stay with the "Day of the Lord" and the "Day of Christ" in this initial word discussion ...we can add additional phrases like "the Son of Man coming on the clouds" later. I want to walk through this study step by step. Let's try to come to a consensus on the "Day of the Lord" and the "Day of Christ" first. Do you believe that these first two phrases ("Day of the Lord" and the "Day of Christ") are dealing with the timing of Christ's Second Coming and the start of the Milliennial Kingdom like Veteran seems to be indicating?
     
  6. thekingdomkeys

    thekingdomkeys New Member

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    What we are trying to determine here is the timing of these two phrases ("Day of the Lord" and the "Day of Christ"), in other words are both phrases talking about the same day and the same event or different days and different events? We aren't even trying to necessarily prove that the event includes the "rapture" at this point and time. Veteran seems to have stated that the event is talking about Christ's Second Coming, which may or may not include the so-called "rapture". We don't need to discus if the "Day" also includes the "rapture" at this time, we can simple state that these passages state that they are talking about Christ's Second Coming and leave it at that. And if both phrases are both one in the same as Veteran seems to be indicating, then when does this event occur? Does it happen at the start of the Millennial Kingdom like Veteran seems to be saying, or does it happen at some other time in God's end-time timeline? And for now, we can only use scriptures that include these two phrases ("Day of the Lord" and the "Day of Christ"), to prove our stance. Some might ask what version should we use when doing a word study, since each version will vary somewhat on wording. I would say for sake of argument on Bible versions, let's use the version that is most universally used when doing Bible studies, the KJV.

    So based on these two phrases ("Day of the Lord" and the "Day of Christ"), do we all agree as Veteran seems to be indicating, that both phrases are talking about the same "Day" and that that day is the day that Christ will return and the Millennial Kingdom will be established?
     
  7. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Wait just a minute.

    No one can be just in pulling out a couple of phrases from God's Word and try to isolate them from the rest... of God's Word. If you've come here to admonish as a Christian brother fine, but don't try and limit understanding in God's Word using isolation techniques.

    That ain't just a "word study" just so you know. It's a TOPIC study, because one can go to every English dictionary and Greek Lexicon in print and still... not derive the proper meaning of the individual words in those two phrases without keeping them within the 'context' of the Scripture where they are written.

    Thus when you mention determining the meaning of those two phrases per Scripture, you cannot just try to isolate them from the rest of Bible Scripture like you're trying to do.
     
    tomwebster likes this.
  8. TWC

    TWC New Member

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    Matthew 24:29-31
    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Joel 2:31
    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

    Acts 2:20
    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord comes:

    This should answer your question.
     
  9. thekingdomkeys

    thekingdomkeys New Member

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    Hello Veteran, I am not trying to "pull out a couple of phrases from God's Word and try to isolate them from the rest" as you have stated. I attempted to tell everyone that this (these first 2 phrases) would just be the start of this study in this thread. I said (in so many words) that we would glean as much as we could out of those 2 phrases and then add new phrases to the mix, didn’t I? So I object to you stating that I am limiting this study to 2 phrases. I was simply giving time for others to chime in on the first 2 phrases of this study before I added additional phrases.

    Well at this point, since things seem to be getting a little heated (that wasn’t my intention), let me list for everyone what we have so far in this study with the first 2 phrases and then I will even add a new phrase. Fair enough? And please notice Veteran, that the verses that contain these “couple of phrases” (the “Day” of Jesus’ Coming), pretty much cover most all of the so-called “rapture” verses in the entire Bible, so even at the beginning of this study, I wasn't isolated out a few verses or passages! If we don’t talk about the “Day” we can’t fully discuss the so-called “rapture”! There is only one universally accepted rapture (pre or post) passage that doesn’t mention the phrases “Day of Christ” or “Day of the Lord”, and that is 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

    Let's see if we can begin to paint a picture of the timing of the "rapture" through these “Day of Christ” / “Day of the Lord” verses. Most of the pre-trib rapture folks believe there are 2 “Days”, the first for the ‘rapture’ and the second for ‘Christ’s Second Coming’. Many of these people claim that the rapture is the “Day of Christ” and the Second Coming (after the tribulation) is the “Day of the Lord”. It is our job as Bible students, to determine if this is true or false. But to further this study along, I have also added 2 additional (non – “Day of Christ” / “Day of the Lord”) passages (1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Matthew 24 that TWC mentioned) to the bottom of the mix as well.

    I have also added the next phrase (thief) to our painted picture as well. At this time, we can now introduce other "thief" passages to the mix, as long as they are referring to the time of the "Day" of His Coming.

    Philippians 1:6-10
    [sup]6[/sup]Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
    [sup]7[/sup]Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.
    [sup]8[/sup]For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
    [sup]9[/sup]And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
    [sup]10[/sup]That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

    Philippians 2:16
    [sup]16[/sup]Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

    2 Thessalonians 2:2-4
    [sup]2[/sup]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    [sup]3[/sup]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    [sup]4[/sup]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    1 Corinthians 1:8
    [sup]8[/sup]Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 5:4-5
    [sup]4[/sup]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    [sup]5[/sup]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    2 Corinthians 1:14
    [sup]14[/sup]As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    2 Peter 3:10-12
    [sup]10[/sup]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    [sup]11[/sup]Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    [sup]12[/sup]Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    Acts 2:16-20
    [sup]16[/sup]But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
    [sup]17[/sup]And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
    [sup]18[/sup]And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
    [sup]19[/sup]And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
    [sup]20[/sup]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

    Joel 1:15
    [sup]15[/sup]Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

    Joel 2:1-15
    [sup]1[/sup]Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
    [sup]2[/sup]A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
    [sup]3[/sup]A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
    [sup]4[/sup]The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
    [sup]5[/sup]Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
    [sup]6[/sup]Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
    [sup]7[/sup]They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
    [sup]8[/sup]Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
    [sup]9[/sup]They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
    [sup]10[/sup]The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
    [sup]11[/sup]And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    Joel 2:28-31
    [sup]28[/sup]And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
    [sup]29[/sup]And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
    [sup]30[/sup]And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
    [sup]31[/sup]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

    Joel 3:11-15
    [sup]11[/sup]Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
    [sup]12[/sup]Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
    [sup]13[/sup]Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
    [sup]14[/sup]Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
    [sup]15[/sup]The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

    Isaiah 2:12
    [sup]12[/sup]For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

    Isaiah 13:6-11
    [sup]6[/sup]Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
    [sup]7[/sup]Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
    [sup]8[/sup]And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
    [sup]9[/sup]Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
    [sup]10[/sup]For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
    [sup]11[/sup]And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

    Jeremiah 46:10
    [sup]10[/sup]For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

    Amos 5:18-20
    [sup]18[/sup]Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
    [sup]19[/sup]As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
    [sup]20[/sup]Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

    Obadiah 1:15
    [sup]15[/sup]For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

    Zephaniah 1:7-16
    [sup]7[/sup]Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
    [sup]8[/sup]And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
    [sup]9[/sup]In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit.
    [sup]10[/sup]And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
    [sup]11[/sup]Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.
    [sup]12[/sup]And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.
    [sup]13[/sup]Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.
    [sup]14[/sup]The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
    [sup]15[/sup]That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
    [sup]16[/sup]A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

    Zechariah 14:1-13
    [sup]1[/sup]A day of the LORD is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.
    [sup]2[/sup]I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
    [sup]3[/sup]Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle.
    [sup]4[/sup]On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
    [sup]5[/sup]You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
    [sup]6[/sup]On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness.
    [sup]7[/sup]It will be a unique day—a day known only to the LORD—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
    [sup]8[/sup]On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.
    [sup]9[/sup]The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.
    [sup]10[/sup]The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up high from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses, and will remain in its place.
    [sup]11[/sup]It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.
    [sup]12[/sup]This is the plague with which the LORD will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
    [sup]13[/sup]On that day people will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another.

    Ezekiel 13:5
    [sup]5[/sup]Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

    Ezekiel 30:2-3
    [sup]2[/sup]Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Howl ye, Woe worth the day!
    [sup]3[/sup]For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

    Malachi 3:2
    [sup]2[/sup]But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

    1 Thessalonians 4:18-5:4
    [sup]13[/sup]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    [sup]14[/sup]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    [sup]15[/sup]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    [sup]16[/sup]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    [sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    [sup]18[/sup]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
    [sup]1[/sup]But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    [sup]2[/sup]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    [sup]3[/sup]For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    [sup]4[/sup]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-54
    [sup]51[/sup]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    [sup]52[/sup]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    [sup]53[/sup]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    [sup]54[/sup]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    Matthew 24:15-31
    [sup]15[/sup]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    [sup]16[/sup]Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    [sup]17[/sup]Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    [sup]18[/sup]Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    [sup]19[/sup]And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    [sup]20[/sup]But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    [sup]21[/sup]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    [sup]22[/sup]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    [sup]23[/sup]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    [sup]24[/sup]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    [sup]25[/sup]Behold, I have told you before.
    [sup]26[/sup]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
    [sup]27[/sup]For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    [sup]28[/sup]For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    [sup]29[/sup]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    [sup]30[/sup]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    [sup]31[/sup]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
     
  10. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Sure you did. No sense in denying in now, everyone seeing this thread has seen you already try to do just that.



    As if trying to 'create' an unfounded distinction between those two phrases wasn't enough to show you're not really interested in Biblically covering the idea of a rapture? Really, who you trying to fool?


    Still... you're trying to deny your intent to isolate those two phrases? How could we as Christian brethren carry on a just Biblical discussion of the rapture subject under such a false pretense? Doesn't help when you put that word "rapture" in quotation marks as if it's a Biblical word either, since such a word is nowhwere... even written in God's Word, not in English nor in the manuscripts.


    Well, there's a simple resolution to that. The word rapture is nowhere written in The Bible. But the idea of a gathering of the saints to Christ Jesus is written, and there's a lot of relevant Scripture about that event which seals the event order and signs of it. The Matthew 24 Scripture which TWC quoted specifically IS... about that gathering of the saints to Christ Jesus at the time of His return AFTER the tribulation Christ mentioned, which by the way, per Scripture, is only... about a one-time return, not two, or three, or four, etc. So already, by your last statement, you're trying to INSERT an EXTRA time of Christ's gathering of His saints that simply is NOT written.




    All those Scriptures agree on the same one-time event of Christ's return, and the gathering of His saints. It's like I said in my first post here. Christ coming "as a thief" is the same time as "the day of the Lord" events.

    And there's one Scripture you forgot...



    Rev 16:12-17
    12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
    13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
    14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
    15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
    16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
    17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
    (KJV)


    Why does our Lord Jesus given that warning of His coming "as a thief" again in between those 6th and 7th vials?

    Simple. Because His coming and gathering of His Church still on earth at that 6th vial timing has not happened yet! In other words, no rapture yet, not even by the time of the 6th vial.
     
  11. PropphecyStudent

    PropphecyStudent New Member

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    This discussions seems like determining how much a vehicle has been used. The tires look like they have ~30k miles. The paint seems slightly faded by U.V. The brake pedal is worn. The upholstery is stretched and stained.

    Or one could look at the odometer.

    As such, one can divine the ~rapture~ by subtle references, parallels, and ~innuendos~, -- or one can look at the "number".


    So to look at the number, one can itemize the ~theory~ and compare it to scripture:


    ~SEQUENCE(S)~
    1. The dead are raised approximate to the tribulation. (A resurrection.)
    2. They which are alive are raised approximate to the tribulation. (A ~rapture~.)
    3. The martyred dead are raised after the tribulation
    4. The martyred are the ONLY ones who return with Jesus. (Rev. 20:4-5)
    5. The rest of the dead are not raised until the thousand years are ended. (Rev. 20:5)
    6. When the rest of the dead are raised after the thousand years are ended, those who are alive are raised.


    According to the above debated aspects, one should realize that the martyred dead are not raised pre/mid/post-tribulation, but are raised as the first fruits of the New Millennium, and are the FIRST resurrection:

    Rev. 20
    4 ... I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[sup][a][/sup] thousand years. [sup]5[/sup] But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [sup]6[/sup] Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.

    ... thus if the FIRST resurrection of the dead is a New Millennium occurrence , (and a tribulation ~rapture~ requires a resurrection of the dead before the saints are raised ~during the tribulation~), then there can be no ~rapture~ event during the tribulation era. Otherwise THEY would be the FIRST resurrection, and the martyred saints would be the SECOND resurrection.



    So although we know there is no tribulation era ~rapture~, we could conceive there is a ~rapture~ at the END of the New Millennium. Or one could continue weighing the various vehicle wear factors.
     
  12. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    PropphecyStudent,
    You are totally confused; the above info is totally incorrect. The moment we die we return to the Father, nothing comes out of the grave, your flesh body will return to dust.


    tkk,
    Your subject, "A Systematic Study of the Rapture through the use of Bible Scriptures," is even in error. There is no "rapture" in Scripture.
     
  13. PropphecyStudent

    PropphecyStudent New Member

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    I repeat my post for those interested in the Topic:

    This discussions seems like determining how much a vehicle has been used. The tires look like they have ~30k miles. The paint seems slightly faded by U.V. The brake pedal is worn. The upholstery is stretched and stained.

    Or one could look at the odometer.

    As such, one can divine the ~rapture~ by subtle references, parallels, and ~innuendos~, -- or one can look at the "number".


    So to look at the number, one can itemize the ~theory~ and compare it to scripture:


    ~SEQUENCE(S)~
    1. The dead are raised approximate to the tribulation. (A resurrection.)
    2. They which are alive are raised approximate to the tribulation. (A ~rapture~.)
    3. The martyred dead are raised after the tribulation
    4. The martyred are the ONLY ones who return with Jesus. (Rev. 20:4-5)
    5. The rest of the dead are not raised until the thousand years are ended. (Rev. 20:5)
    6. When the rest of the dead are raised after the thousand years are ended, those who are alive are raised.


    According to the above debated aspects, one should realize that the martyred dead are not raised pre/mid/post-tribulation, but are raised as the first fruits of the New Millennium, and are the FIRST resurrection:

    Rev. 20
    4 ... I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[sup][a][/sup] thousand years. [sup]5[/sup] But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [sup]6[/sup] Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.

    ... thus if the FIRST resurrection of the dead is a New Millennium occurrence , (and a tribulation ~rapture~ requires a resurrection of the dead before the saints are raised ~during the tribulation~), then there can be no ~rapture~ event during the tribulation era. Otherwise THEY would be the FIRST resurrection, and the martyred saints would be the SECOND resurrection.



    So although we know there is no tribulation era ~rapture~, we could conceive there is a ~rapture~ at the END of the New Millennium. Or one could continue weighing the various vehicle wear factors.
     
  14. thekingdomkeys

    thekingdomkeys New Member

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    Tomwebster and Veteran, everyone, no matter which side of the fence one resides on, on this topic knows that the term "rapture" is not mentioned in the Bible ...why do you guys insist on always bringing that up? It is a given, that when one says "rapture" they are talking about being "caught up" ...everyone knows that ...that is a given. Would you guys prefer we say we are going to study the "caught up" rather than to say that we are going to be discussing the "rapture"? And didn't you read the first sentence that I wrote in this thread guys? What did I say? "I am a new member of this forum and I know that you guys have created quite a few threads on the subject of the "Rapture" (being "caught up" to God)"...how silly to keep mentioning this. The phrase "Second Coming" isn't in the Bible either, but do both of you guys have a problem when someone uses the phrase "Second Coming" when discussing Christ's return? Have you guys ever written the phrase "Second Coming" in your threads when discussing Christ's return, even though it isn't listed in the Bible??? Don't you see that all of this nonsense is just nitpicking?

    And with Veteran's comment "And there's one Scripture you forgot" when referring to the new phrase (thief) that I had introduced, I didn't forget anything Veteran. I wasn't trying to make an all inclusive list of the phrases concerning the word "thief" in the Bible, when referring to the doctrine of the "caught up" (ha, ha), I was simply starting to list a few (there are others). You must not have read what I wrote concerning the new phrase "thief" did you Veteran? This is what I said: "I have also added the next phrase (thief) to our painted picture as well. At this time, we can now introduce other "thief" passages to the mix, as long as they are referring to the time of the "Day" of His Coming." Why would I say that we can begin to introduce other "thief" passages to the mix, if I thought that I had listed them all? Do those 2 sentences that I quoted from my last posting sound like I was saying that I had listed all of the "thief" passages Veteran?

    Veteran, when speaking to me, please speak for yourself and not for others: "Sure you did. No sense in denying in now, everyone seeing this thread has seen you already try to do just that." And how presumptuous of you Veteran to presume that I am a pretribulation rapturist (I might be, but maybe I'm not) since I have yet to state which way I believe the scriptures point on the topic: "As if trying to 'create' an unfounded distinction between those two phrases wasn't enough to show you're not really interested in Biblically covering the idea of a rapture? Really, who you trying to fool?" All I have said from the get-go on this thread is (in so many words) that we will dissect the phrases one by one, and see what picture the phrases begin to paint, until the painting has been completed. And all that I have done thus far in this thread, is to list some passages, I have yet to even try to make any connections, connect any dots or argue any points! If you don't believe me, let "everyone seeing this thread" be my judge.

    Tomwebster, before we say that PropphecyStudent is wrong about his viewpoint on the "caught up" (rapture - ha, ha) doctrine, we need to prove him to be wrong or possibly prove him to be right for that matter, and that is what I hope to do with all of you (if you have the patience to give me a chance?) in this Word study. In this thread we will systematically step through, phrase by phrase ("Day", "Thief" and so forth) until we are eventually able to paint a picture of the rapture. What's the hurry? Give me a chance guys, OK? That is all that I ask.

    Where is the spirit of love, the Spirit of Christ in these debates? Right or wrong, on your position of the rapture, are you right on the spirit of your delivery? Let's try to avoid the spirit of being judgmental and attempt to have some "civil discourse". Is that too much to ask for? What type of spirit would Christ's first generation disciples discuss doctrine with others in? Is it more important for us (you and I) to prove our points at any expense, rather than to prove our faith? Right or wrong, where's the love?

    1 Corinthians 13:2
    "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity (love), I am nothing."
    thekingdomkeys
     
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  15. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    Your word "rapture" has taken on more meaning than just "caught up." It now carries with it a doctrine that is very dangerous and totally false. "Caught up" is not even the best translation for "ἁρπάζω" (harpazō).


    You seem to think you are the first to come to this forum to promote your "rapture doctrine." We have gone over this "stuff" time and time again. We have gone over all the words used, we have explained and studied them. The doctrine is still false.
     
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  16. PropphecyStudent

    PropphecyStudent New Member

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    Hi thekingdomkeys,

    I appreciate your attempt to perform an objective analysis of this ~rapture~ concept. As characterized in my previous post, it appears you are more interested in studying the nuances of the various analogies, metaphores, similies, inferences, shadows, and types. Would this be correct?
     
  17. avoice

    avoice Member

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    The problem is there is no such thing as doing "Rapture" done in a little bit different fashion". Its a contradiction to begin with There is no Rapture ..as in Christ taking anyone anywhere..Pre post or mid ..Christ descends to earth at his second coming not before.

    it always gets to personal attacks because Rapture Supporters always think us Non Rapture people just need to be educated the right way and we will see the light and become Rapture believers.

    The pity is just by claiming to believe Rapture you have proved you do not know scripture at all before you even start.. so nothing you say matters at that point ..
    To those who know it isnt written and is simply a teaching of men we know its not a matter of how we understand a thing that doesnt exist in the first place

    Its a little like trying to tell us why little green men are really red ... No they arent they are little green men ..
    Yet you insist it's our misunderstanding not yours ...

    I watched a religious special on T.V. a few weeks ago ..What totally shocked me was the number of Theolgians and scholars who admitted and discussed the fact Rapture wasnt written in scripture anywhere ...
    Yet in the next min defend it and teach it anyway..they teach a doctrine not written deceive men and call themselves men of God ..Im reminded of James 3:1 ...
     
  18. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Did this thread even get passed 3 posts before the fighting started?
     
  19. thekingdomkeys

    thekingdomkeys New Member

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    Hello Aspen, at the beginning of this thread I asked everyone if this one could be done differently ...I asked if we could have "civil discourse", didn't I? Why can't we debate in Christ's love? How can we call ourselves "Christians" if we don't even show His light? I still don't even understand why there is all the attacks against me and supposedly my stand on the doctrine of the "rapture". In fact I haven't even given my position on the "rapture" yet, nor have I even really gotten into the study yet. I just don't get it.
    thekingdomkeys
     
  20. PropphecyStudent

    PropphecyStudent New Member

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    Hi thekindgomkeys,

    The perspective to your delimma is found in Matt. 16:6, and as I attempted to address in my first Topic in this Forum: http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/15233-is-this-a-christian-or-is-this-a-religious-forum/ .

    And where there are those who sow tares, if these are bypassed by the gatherers for the burning, I am willing to work along side you in harvesting the wheat.
     
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