A Test Of Reading Comprehension and Honesty

[mailmandan]

No miracles today Dan, 1Corinthians 13:1-8;9;10
Prove you have received a miracle from God like the 1st, century christians did.
You cannot.
Paul not only taught but confirmed that his teaching was from the direct indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by miracles
1Corinthians 2:4,
- and my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.
Paul and the rest of the apostles proved they had received a miracle when they taught.
All you can do is claim it with your mouth.
You cannot prove it.
Why is it you claim to be directly guided by the Holy Spirit when you teach against His revelation?

I'm not talking about miraculous events "in addition" to the miraculous opening of your understanding to comprehend the Scriptures. 1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Matthew 17:9 does not contradict Lk. 18 ; Lk. 24.
What it does is show your interpretation of those Scriptures is err.

Just the opposite.

You have been taught to see the Scriptures from the calvinist point of view.

I'm not a 5 point Calvinist. You have been taught to see the Scriptures from the Campbellite point of view.

You think God directly hid understanding from them.
Why? You think God did not want them to believe as calvinism teaches.
Sorry, but you are not making sense.

Calvinism is not wrong about everything. Even a clock with a dead battery is right twice a day. It's not about God fatalistically blinding them, yet only God can open their understanding. They expected that Jesus would immediately be a conquering King and they were not yet willing to believe that he would be delivered into the hands of his enemies and killed.

God absolutely wanted the true followers of jesus to understand His teaching.

Sure He does but it doesn't happen all at once.

Dan, Jesus tells them what is going to take place.
If Jesus does not want them to understand,...
Also Jesus being God WOULD KNOW THAT THEY COULD NOT UNDERSTAND IF HE WAS THE ONE WHO BLINDED THEIR UNDERSTANDING!!!

It's not all about Jesus deliberately blinding them, but only Jesus could unblind them.

Do you not see how ridiculous it is for Jesus to teach them while at the same time not allowing them to understand what He is saying to them?

It took time for them to understand and it was not without Jesus opening their understanding to comprehend the Scriptures. That's not hard to understand or ridiculous. It's just hard for you to accept. Now why do you still refuse to believe the gospel? (Romans 1:16)

That is the nonsense of calvanist doctrine.
God tells them to understand, then at the same time makes them not understand.
Tomfoolery

They did eventually understand and only God could open their understanding.

Listen to Jesus teach them what is going to take place,
Luke 18:31-34,

- So Jesus took the twelve aside and said to them, Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished.
For we will be delivered to the Gentiles and be mocked and insulted and spit upon.
They will scourge Him and kill Him and the third day He will rise again
Now according to you, Jesus did not want them to understand,
So I guess Jesus likes to waste His breath on pointless teaching.

I did not say that Jesus never wanted them to understand, but at this point, they still did not understand and it was not until Jesus opened their understanding that they did comprehend the Scriptures and then they did fully understand.

Next verse,
34 - But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them and they did not know the things which were spoken.

So according to your explanation Jesus told them want would happen but kept them from understanding.
Well, heres more proof that calvinist "dual will of God" is illogical error.

Jesus did not fatalistically blind them, yet they still could not understand until Jesus opened their understanding. At first, they were not yet ready to understand.

Just keep reading the chapter Dan.
Folks did understand and believe on Jesus!
This disproves your doctrine that they were miraculously hindered from understanding Gods teaching.

I did not say they were fatalistically, miraculously hindered from understand God's teaching. The disciples were not yet ready to believe because of their expectations of Jesus immediately being a conquering King and not being put to death, so the truth remained hid from them and only Jesus could open their understanding.

Luke 18:40-42,
- So Jesus stood still and commanded him to be brought to Him.
and when he had come near, He asked him saying,
What do you want Me to do for you? he said, Lord that I may receive my sight.
Then Jesus said to Him, Receive your sight; your  faith has made you well
His Faith in Jesus Dan.
The apostles had unbelief in what Jesus had just told them He would die and ressurect.

I understand that the blind man received his sight because of his faith.

If God was blinding those who heard Him, so they could not understand,
why did the blind man have faith?
He understood.
Jesus knew his preaching could be understood!

Well the disciples did not understand at first, yet Jesus did not condemn them for it and they still believed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:16; John 6:68-69; 20:31) and were saved regardless, so your quest to condemn the disciples for not initially understanding and believing that Christ would be killed and resurrected is hog wash.

Mark 7:14
- When Jesus had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them,
Hear Me, everyone and understand

Now the apostles did not understand the parable.
Is it because God did not want them to understand?
If so, then why does Jesus explain it to them until they do understand?

Why do you keep making this all about fatalistic determination? Because you are determined to slap a Calvinist label on me. You sound more like a crafty lawyer than you do a good Berean. Jesus had to help their understanding. Why do you still fail to understand what it means to believe the gospel?

Mark 7:18,
- So He said to them,
Are you thus without understanding also?
Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him.....

When Jesus did teach and did not want men to understand He spoke in parables
And He did not explain them to the ones that He wanted the truth hidden from them.
When Jesus taught the apostles about His death and ressurection He told them with plain straightforward speech.

Well regardless of your repetitious mantra, the disciples did not understand at first, but were not condemned by Jesus for it and eventually Jesus opened their understanding and they were able to fully understand.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Matthew 13:10-11,
- and the disciples came and said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables?
Jesus answered and said to them,
Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

The apostles were chosen to understand Jesus' teaching.
Jesus Himself said so.
Dan says they were not.
Dan is disagreeing with God.

I'm not in disagreement with Matthew 13:10-11. I never said that the apostles were not chosen to understand Jesus' teaching, but that does not mean they understood everything all at once. Titus likes to slander Dan because he is not an honest debater and he also still refuses to REPENT and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16)

Right.
This is what occured. Now you are using Luke 24:44-47 in context.
Before you used Luke 24:44-47 as a proof text that the apostles could not understand what Jesus told them about Him being ressurected from the dead, because He had not opened their understanding.

Bottom line, they did not understand at first, but later they did. You have them as condemned unbelievers until they believed later.

That is misrepresentation of Luke 24:44-47.
They did not need a miracle from God to open their eyes to understand what Jesus told them in Luke 18:31-33 and Matthew 17:9,
- Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.

Luke 24:32 - And they said to one another, “Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?” Miracle. Campbellites don't understand this. So according to your logic, that Jesus opened their understanding to comprehend the Scriptures is superfluous. (Luke 24:45)

Their unbelief and hardness of heart WAS NOT GODS WILL!
Gods will was that they believed in what Jesus taught them.

Never said it was God's will, yet they were not ready to believe and only God could open their understanding.

Calvinism teaches God hardens hearts because He desires to harden mens hearts.
That would make God evil.

Enough with the Calvinism talk. I'm not a 5 point Calvinist.

Later their hearts got so hard from unbelief that they did not even believe that He ressurected from the dead. That is why Jesus rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, Mark 16:14.

They did not believe the eyewitnesses who saw Jesus resurrected, but eventually they came around. When are you finally going to come around and believe the gospel? (Romans 1:16)

If Dan is right and God deliberately blinded their understanding,
Then Jesus was wrong for rebuking them WHEN IT WAS JESUS HIMSELF THAT CAUSED THEM NOT TO BELIEVE OR UNDERSTAND.
That's the nonsensical interpretation of calvinism.

More slander that culminates in a Calvinism label.

Irrelevant,
No one can be saved with hardness of heart and unbelief.

Hardness of heart and unbelief towards believing eyewitnesses who saw Jesus resurrected did not keep the apostles from being saved.
They were already saved because of their belief in Jesus and they remained that way. 11 of them anyway. (Matthew 16:16; John 6:68-69; 13:10-11; 20:31) It blows my mind how you have the audacity to condemn the apostles for being slow to believe in the resurrection of Christ when you don't even believe the gospel! (Romans 1:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

You have failed to give one passage that teaches a person with hardness of heart and unbelief will be in heaven. I'm still waiting.

The passage you gave did not say that the hardness of heart and unbelief was towards Jesus being the Christ, the Son of the living God, so your argument is moot. For the umpteenth time, their hardness of heart and unbelief was towards believing eyewitnesses who saw Jesus resurrected. Yet you say the apostles were condemned for not understanding and not believing in the resurrection at first.

Instead all you do is claim they were still saved,
That's just your opinion.
Prove unbelievers in the ressurection will be saved!

They were still saved and here is my proof. (Matthew 16:16; John 6:68-69; 13:10-11; 20:31). Don't forget about progressive revelation. (Galatians 1:11-12; Ephesians 3:1-9)

So what that they did not believe the eyewitnesses to His His ressurection.
Were they or were not unbelievers in the ressurection?

Not at first, but this was progressive revelation.

Give scripture that one can be saved with a hardened heart
And not believe in the resurrection.

(Matthew 16:16; John 6:68-69; 13:10-11; 20:31) Under this current dispensation we would be condemned for not believing in the resurrection. (Romans 1:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) Keep in mind this was progressive revelation.

Dan, you know why they did not believe those who told them Jesus had raised from the dead?
Because they did not believe in the ressurection.

They did not understand or believe at first, but later they did come to understand and believe, thanks to Jesus.

Your explanations do not make sense.
You are contradicting your definition of saving faith.
1Corinthians 15:1-4 must believe in the death, burial AND RESSURECTION.
The apostles were unbelievers by choice not by Gods sovereign will.

You are confusing dispensations and still cannot grasp progressive revelation. (Galatians 1:11-12; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 3:1-9) Show me in the 4 gospel accounts where John the Baptist or the 12 disciples were preaching about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. I'll be waiting.

 

[mailmandan]

I've erred. I need to apologize to Danthemailman.

Dan is responding to what I said here,

I am guilty of being wrong.
They were not yet believers in verses 33-34,
So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together, saying,
The Lord is risen indeed and has appeared to Simon.

The apostles are still in unbelief as verse 41 teaches,
V.41 - But while they still did not believe(the apostles) for joy and marveled, He said to them, Have you any food here

I apologize Dan, I dont believe you took verse 45 out of context.
They were still in unbelief until verse 45,
- And Jesus opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

I have misrepresented verse 45 not Dan, so sorry Dan, please forgive me!

Apology accepted.

This does not make Dan correct about his belief that God directly forced the apostles by supernatural means to harden their hearts so they could not understand.

I never said He did, but it did take God to open the Scriptures to them in order to fully understand.

Verse 45 Jesus opens their hearts to understand the Scriptures.
This is part of what helps them to believe.
Verse 39 Jesus has appeared before them.
Seeing Jesus with their own eyes helped them believe again
Also verse 40, Jesus asked for food.
Verse 44 Jesus begins to teach them.

I admit that the passages here are somewhat difficult because Jesus himself said they believed because of seeing Him alive after His death.
John 20:20;28-29,
- When Jesus had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.

- And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and My God, Jesus said to him,
Thomas because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

The Bible is in perfect harmony. Therefore I dont challenge scripture against scripture.
Luke's account must also be just as true as all the gospel accounts.

I think it's very important that Jesus is teaching them in Luke 24 verses 44,46,47,48,49,
This proves they have not yet been given miraculously knowledge from the direct operation of the Holy Spirit.

Baptismal measure of the Holy Spirit comes later in Acts 2.
Once the apostles were Holy Spirit baptized they needed no teaching.
They had full miraculous knowledge of Jesus' good news.

I doubt we will ever completely agree on everything, but at least we agree one some things.

So, verse 45 definitely means Jesus opened their understanding to the Scriptures.
That would be Old testament.
Because at this time Jesus' earthly ministry had not been written for the Jews to read.
It was only oral teaching not written.
In verse 46 Jesus says, Thus it is written. That means what is written in the old testament about the Prophecy of the coming of the Messiah and His death, burial and ressurection.
46 - Then He said to them,
- Thus it is written and thus it was nessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day.

Yes, don't leave out Prophecy of the coming of the Messiah and His death, burial and ressurection.

Again I dont believe they could not understand Jesus when He preached to them, He would rise from the dead.
I believe they did not understand fully why He had to be killed and ressurected because of unbelief.
That unbelief coming from their own freewill not Gods foreordained decree.

No fatalistic determination here and there was freewill and unbelief involved, yet their understanding still needed opening.

Therefore they did not need a miracle worked on their hearts so that they could believe.
All they needed was to see Jesus. They did have their understanding opened to the Old testament Scriptures concerning Jesus and His death, burial and ressurection so that they understood fully, why this took place.

So why did their hearts burn within while Jesus talked with them on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to them?” (Luke 24:32) Why are you so anti-miracle worked on the heart to comprehend spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:11-14) and seem to believe that all understanding of scripture comes exclusively through human understand and intelligence? It was not until Jesus opened their hearts that they did come to fully understand.

There is no scripture anywhere in the new testament that teaches God directly caused them to not believe in the ressurection. That was their choice not to believe. Which resulted in hardness of heart.

I don't believe that God forces us to believe. We must choose to believe. Here is how I see it. Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief in Christ is not exclusively a matter of human decision. (John 6:44,65). Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) in and enables us, (John 6:65) we would never come to believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose to believe in Christ unto salvation, we must choose to believe in Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

Since I'm not a 5 point Calvinist, the rest of this post is repetitious and moot.

 

[Johann]

So why did their hearts burn within while Jesus talked with them on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to them?” (Luke 24:32) Why are you so anti-miracle worked on the heart to comprehend spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:11-14) and seem to believe that all understanding of scripture comes exclusively through human understand and intelligence? It was not until Jesus opened their hearts that they did come to fully understand.

This is what I have noticed--the exclusion of the Holy Spirit--in the miraculous rebirth of the Holy Spirit upon the soul dead in trespasses and sins-- And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;--you have explained it well to Titus
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So why did their hearts burn within while Jesus talked with them on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to them?” (Luke 24:32) Why are you so anti-miracle worked on the heart to comprehend spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:11-14) and seem to believe that all understanding of scripture comes exclusively through human understand and intelligence? [correct in your observation--] It was not until Jesus opened their hearts that they did come to fully understand.
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Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Col_2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1Pe_3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:



Ezekiel 36:26-27
Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Ezekiel 37:14
Verse Concepts
I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it,” declares the Lord.’”

John 3:5-8
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.

Titus 3:5-6
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,



John 6:63

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

John 1:13

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:6

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:6

who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Romans 2:29

But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 7:6

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Romans 8:2

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Galatians 3:2

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

--but I don't want to derail the thread @mailmandan hence my question--Who and what is the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Titus]

Hello,

"the meaning of this statement was hidden from them" This is a PERIPHRASTIC PERFECT PASSIVE. Many of Jesus' teachings did not make sense to the Apostles until after the resurrection (cf. John 12:16) and the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost (cf. John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13-15). They could not yet see the fullness of the gospel message because it was so different from what they had been taught and were expecting

I'm fine with this,
There has never been a man that has lived that has remembered and fully understood all of the revelation of God.
It is only human for the apostles to not have full understanding of Jesus' teaching during His earthly ministry.
FYI, I never taught or believed they did nor was it required of them from God.

What I'm teaching is, the ignorance, unbelief and hardness of heart does not automatically mean "God did this to them in a miraculous way against their own will.

Your above statement can be true without God Himself being the agent that caused their ignorance.
It could be simply they did not have enough education in their own Hebrew religion.
It could also be they by their own freewill chose not to believe, by this their hearts were hardened. A man who hardens his heart against Gods teaching will not believe it.

Being men, they were later given miraculous knowledge by the Spirit of God, for the purpose of teaching the gospel to the world.
Their HS baptism was not needed for them to believe in the death burial and ressurection.
They already believed and understood why Jesus told them these things before HS baptism.
Jesus taught them why in Luke 24:44-47.
If they had been given this understanding from HS baptism in Luke 24, Jesus would not have needed to teach them. Holy Spirit baptism guided them into all truth, no study or memorization needed. No explanation needed,

John 14:25-26,
- These things I have spoken to you, while being present with you,
But the Helper the Holy Spirit, whom My Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you

The fact that all need to study today and all cannot remember and quote perfectly the whole Bible as the apostles could quote the old testament.
This proves those today who claim to have received the same Spirit baptism that the apostles recieved in Acts 2, are mistaken.
If so then they can prove it by quoting any passage without using their Bible. And have full understanding of its meaning.

1) "And they understood none of these things:" (kai autoi ouden touton sunekan) "And they (the twelve) did not understand any of these things," could not grasp or comprehend what He said to them, how this could happen to the Messiah, not understanding, Isa_53:1-12

I'm fine with this.
But why could they not understand is the question that needs answering.
My answer has already been given.

1) "And they understood none of these things:" (kai autoi ouden touton sunekan) "And they (the twelve) did not understand any of these things," could not grasp or comprehend what He said to them, how this could happen to the Messiah, not understanding, Isa_53:1-12

Jesus was abandoned by His soon to be apostles.
They did not understand.
Was it because God did not allow them to understand?
Or by their own ignorance of the Scriptures and refusal to accept Jesus' teaching?

And this saying was hid from them," (kai en hrema touto kekrummenon ap' auton) "And this utterance was hidden from them," curtained from their mind, their understanding, even after His resurrection, Mar_9:32; Luk_24:25-27; Luk_24:32.

3) "Neither knew they the things which were spoken." (kai ouk eginoskon la legomena) "And they did not know the things that were said," by Him, until He explained them to them after His resurrection, Luk_24:44-45; Joh_12:16.



And they understood none of these things,.... "Not one of them", as the Syriac and Persic versions render it; every article of his sufferings and death were unintelligible by them; they knew not how to understand him in any one point: or how to reconcile these things to the notions they had entertained of the temporal grandeur, and glory, of the Messiah, and his kingdom; and which shows their great ignorance of the prophecies of the Old Testament concerning these things.


And this saying, or "thing"; for it answers to the Hebrew word דבר, which signifies any affair, or matter, as well as a word, or saying: and so here, the whole of this affair
was hid from them; unless it should have a peculiar regard to that part of it, which expresses his resurrection from the dead; see Mar_9:10 or the delivery of him to the Gentiles, Luk_9:44

neither knew they the things which were spoken; the meaning of them. The Ethiopic version leaves out this, and puts the former clause, by way of question, "and he said unto them, and is this saying hid from you?

I'm fine with this.
Surely no one would argue they understood nothing Jesus taught them.
That would be a ridiculous interpretation of the gospels, the ministry of Jesus while on earth.

Again, I see no reason why they could not understand what He clearly told them.
I agree that they did not understand why He had to go through these things.
If Jesus told us face to face, He was going to be murdered and raise from the dead.
We could comprehend the words but also may not understand the purpose.

Question: Did God supernaturally force the apostles into intellectual retardation?
Did He miraculously blind them? Directly hide His teaching from them?
If so, why would God do this to them?
Why would God rebuke them for not understanding, not believing having their hearts hardened.
If God Himself was the agent the cause of their unbelief and hardness of heart.

God is unfair if this be true. Why rebuke someone for their unbelief when you are the cause of their unbelief?
Makes no sense.

First we only need the English translations to understand Gods oracles.
I'm not a Hebrew Scholar are you?

There is a common false teaching among protestant denominations,
That Holy Spirit baptism is how they were saved.

This is unbiblical teaching.
The baptism of the HS that the apostles recieved does not save us just as it did not save them.
I am responding specifically to this false teaching.

I am not teaching the Holy Spirit plays no part in our salvation.
I am teaching that He is not the agent by which our sins are forgiven.
But he plays a part.

Matthew 26:28,
- For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.

​

Jesus is the Savior of the world.​

Some oneness folks believe Jesus is the father and the HS.​

This also is err.​

Jesus, His Father and the Holy Spirit all worked in harmony to bring about mankind's salvation.​

But the agent of the three who bore our sins and shed His blood to make atonement for our sins is Jesus only!​

​

The Savior was in the flesh.​

The shed blood of His flesh is the power that cleanses us of our sins.​

Only the blood can do this.​

We are saved by the gospel, which is revealed through the Holy Spirit, 1Corinthians 12:13.​

We are saved by the Father, who sent His only begotten Son as a propitiation for all those who come to Christ,​

​

So I believe all of the Godhead play their part in our Salvation.​

But HS baptism was never or never will be to save someone from their sins.​

The apostles were already saved before they received HS baptism.​

​

Paul also was not forgiven of His sins when he received HS baptism.​

His case of conversion is this,​

First believed on the road to Damascus i.e. Faith,​

Then told to go into the. city and wait to be told what to do.​

Ananias then teaches Paul the gospel,​

Then lays hands on Paul to receive His sight and be baptized by the HS. Acts 9:17-18.​

Then Paul was commanded to be baptized into Christ tomah away His sins.​

​

The apostles in Acts 2. Were already saved when they recieved HS baptism.​

Paul was HS baptized first then saved in Jesus' water baptism.​

​

We know Paul was not saved in his HS baptism because Paul teaches us when his sins were remitted.​

​

Acts 22:16,​

- And why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.​

​

Paul gave no mention of his HS baptism washing away His sins.​

He was still in his sins until he obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ was water baptized by Ananias to be saved.​

Mark 16:15-16,​

- He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned ​

​

​

​

 

[Titus]

Here is the simple reason why it is Scripturally incorrect to believe we MUST have a miraculous working of the Holy Spirit in order to understand, believe and obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.

If God must perform a miracle on each individual in order that they might believe and be saved...

Then those who hear the gospel, dont believe it are not accountable.
God is guilty for not giving them His HS that they can believe.

This makes God guilty for all who die lost in unbelief.

Since all can comprehend the Scriptures. Folks with normal intelligence.
It is our guilt not Gods if we reject the gospel.

Ephesians 3:4,
- by which when you read you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ.

We get understanding from reading the Bible.
No miracles today nessary for understanding.
If so the word is not all sufficient as it claims.

The word is able to save souls, do you believe this? It is the word not sufficient to save us?
Do we need more than the Bible?

James 1:21,
- therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness and recieve with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

2Timothy 3:16-17,
- All Scripture is given by the inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine for reproof for correction for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be COMPLETE/PERFECT throughly equipped for every good work.

The Bible is the final revelation from God.
God has no need to reveal any more to us that He has revealed in His sacred Scriptures.
If you believe the Bible you must not believe you need something more than the Bible to be a believer.
Otherwise you do not believe in the all sufficient perfectness of the Bible.

 

[Johann]

What I'm teaching is, the ignorance, unbelief and hardness of heart does not automatically mean "God did this to them in a miraculous way against their own will.

Romans 9:18

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

2) "And whom he will be hardeneth," (hon dethelei sklerunei) "yet, whom he divinely wills, he hardens;- Or allows them the opportunity to harden themselves, in giving them life, health, and necessities of life, as he causeth the sun to shine and sendeth the rain upon the just and the unjust, Act_17:28; Mat_5:45; Act_14:16-17.

The hardening process may be observed in the example of the rich barn builder, and men of his disposition today, and in the specific life of Belshazzar. Luk_12:16-21; Dan_5:18-23. In some places it is said Pharaoh hardened his heart, in others that God hardened his heart. There is no actual contradiction between the two statements, because God's Word is "true from the beginning"; the term "harden" is used in the primary and secondary senses. It appear that God hardens men’s heart only in the sense that he sustains them with life in their choices as men turn away from him again and again in procrastination of obedience to his commands and in obstinate enmity and rebellion against his calls, Exo_4:21. Truth and light rejected hardens the heart, Pro_29:1, Rom_1:28.

THE MEANING OF A HARDENED HEART

In some places it is said that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, and in others that God has hardened it. Both are strictly correct.

Would you say the above is correct--that men harden their hearts--and that God can also harden the hears of men?

The rejection of the truth and the abuse of our privileges ever tend to harden the heart. This is a spiritual law as certain in its operation as the law of gravitation. As soon as Pharaoh saw a respite from his afflictions, his heart was hardened. And how often do men make all kinds of promises, but no sooner does relief come than we fall back again into a state worse than the first. "The sun," says Theodoret, "by force of its heat, moistens the wax and dries the clay, softening the one and hardening the other; and as this produces opposite effects by the same power, so through thy long-suffering of God, which reaches to all, some receive good and others evil; some are softened and others hardened.
-Sexton

9:14 "What shall we say then" Paul often used this diatribe form (cf. Rom. 3:5; 4:1; 6:1; 7:7; 8:31; 9:14,19,30).

"There is no injustice with God, is there?" The grammar expects a "no" answer. How can God hold humans responsible if God's sovereignty is the deciding factor (cf. Rom. 9:19)? This is the mystery of election. The key emphasis in this context is that God is free to do what He will with humanity (rebellious mankind), however, God's sovereignty is expressed in mercy (see note at Rom. 9:15), not raw power.

It must also be stated that God's sovereign choices are not based on foreknowledge of human's future choices and actions. If this were true then ultimately individual's choices and actions and merits would be the basis of God's choices (cf. Rom. 9:16; 1 Pet. 1:2). Behind this is the traditional Jewish view of prosperity to the righteous (cf. Deuteronomy 27-28; Job and Psalm 73). But, God chooses to bless the unworthy through faith (not performance, cf. Rom. 5:8). God knows all things but He has chosen to limit His choices (1) in mercy and (2) in promise. There is a necessary human response, but it follows and ultimately confirms God's life changing elective choice.

"May it never be" This is a rare optative form that was often used by Paul for an emphatic negation usually to his diatribe objector's questions (cf. Rom. 3:4,6,31; 6:2,15; 7:7,13; 11:1,11 also 1 Cor. 6:15; Gal. 2:17; 3:21; 6:14). It is possibly a Hebrew idiom.

9:15 This is a quote from Exod. 33:19. God is free to act according to His own redemptive purposes. Even Moses did not merit God's blessing (cf. Exod. 33:20). He was a murderer (cf. Exod. 2:11-15). The key is that His choices are in mercy (cf. Rom. 9:16,18-23; 11:30,31,32).

9:15-16 "mercy" This Greek word (eleos, cf. Rom. 9:15,16,18,23; 11:30,31,32) is used in the Septuagint (LXX) to translate the special Hebrew term hesed (remember the writers of the NT were Hebrew thinkers writing in street Greek), which meant "steadfast, covenant loyalty." God's mercy and election are plural, corporate, (Jews [Isaac], not Arabs [Ishmael]; Israel [Jacob], not Edom [Esau], but believing Jews and believing Gentiles, cf. Rom. 9:24) as well as individuals. This truth is one of the keys to unlocking the mystery of the doctrine of predestination (universal redemption). The other key in the context of Romans 9-11 is God's unchanging character-mercy (cf. Rom. 9:15,16,18,23; 11:30,31,32), and not human performance. Mercy through selection will eventually reach all who believe in Christ. The one opens the door of faith to all (cf. Rom. 5:18-19).



9:17-18 Verse 17 is a powerful universal quote from Exod. 9:16; verse 18 is the conclusion drawn from the quote. Pharaoh is said to have hardened his own heart in Exod. 8:15,19,32; 9:34. God is said to have hardened his heart in Exod. 4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 10:20,27; 11:10. This example is used to show God's sovereignty (cf. Rom. 9:18). Pharaoh is responsible for his choices. God uses Pharaoh's arrogant, stubborn personality to accomplish His will for Israel (cf. Rom. 9:18).

Also notice the purpose of God's actions with Pharaoh were redemptive in purpose; and inclusive in scope. They were intended:

1. to show God's power (versus the Egyptian nature and animal gods, as Genesis 1 does to the Babylonian astral deities)

2. to reveal God to Egypt and, by implication, the whole earth (cf. Rom. 9:17)

Western (American) thought magnifies the individual, but eastern thought focuses on the need of the corporate whole. God used Pharaoh to reveal Himself to a needy world. He will do the same with unbelieving Israel (cf. Romans 11). In this context the rights of the one diminishes in light of the needs of the whole. Remember, also the corporate OT examples of

1. Job's original children dying because of God's discussion with Satan (cf. Job 1-2)

2. the Israeli soldiers dying because of Achan's sin (cf. Joshua 7)

3. David's first child with Bathsheba dying because of David's sin (cf. 2 Sam. 12:15).

We are all affected by the choices of others. This corporality can be seen in the NT in Rom. 5:12-21.

You agree?

 

[Johann]

Here is the simple reason why it is Scripturally incorrect to believe we MUST have a miraculous working of the Holy Spirit in order to understand, believe and obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.

4. Source of Revelation, Wisdom, and Power
“These are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except for their own spirit within them? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:10-11).

God gives His followers the Holy Spirit so we may know Him better. Since the Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit, it knows the thoughts of God and reveals those thoughts to believers. The Holy Spirit opens believers’ eyes to the hope of salvation and their inheritance in Christ.

Jesus knew that his disciples would need the power to carry out their mission to be witnesses to the entire world.

Jesus told his disciples, “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)

Christians have access to power, revelation, and wisdom from the Holy Spirit, just as the Apostle Paul wrote to believers in Ephesus,

“I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms” (Ephesians 1:17-20).

5. Guides to All Truth and Knowledge of What Is to Come

The Holy Spirit tells what is yet to come. The Holy Spirit is called the “Spirit of Truth” in John 16:13 because he guides believers into all truth. Jesus told his disciples the Holy Spirit would make known what he hears and would only speak what the Father speaks.

“But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you” (John 16:13-15).


6. Gives Spiritual Gifts to Believers
Attributes of the Holy Spirit, such as wisdom, knowledge, and power, are manifested in the lives of believers for the good of others. More gifts are listed in 1 Corinthians 12:7-11.

7. Seal in the Lives of Believers
In ancient times, a seal was a “legal signature” attesting ownership and validating what was sealed.

The Holy Spirit is our mark of adoption as God’s children. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to his followers so that they could be confident in their salvation.

Just as you might make a deposit or a down payment on a new car to make sure the salesperson doesn’t sell it to anyone else, the Holy Spirit is a deposit in our lives confirming the validity of Christ’s message and that we belong to Christ.

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory” (Ephesians 1:13).

8. Helps in Our Weakness and Intercedes for Us
We all have times when we feel weak and don’t know what to do. The Holy Spirit helps us align with God’s will by interceding for us during those times.

“In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God” (Romans 8:26-27).

9. Makes Believers New and Grants Us Eternal Life
Holy Spirit works in the lives of believers to renew, sanctify, and make us holy. Just as the Holy Spirit raised Christ from the dead, the Holy Spirit will give eternal life to believers in Christ.

“But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you” (Romans 8:10-11).

10. Sanctifies and Enables Good Fruit in Our Lives
The work of the Holy Spirit in a Christian’s life is an ongoing process of becoming holy through sanctification. Through the conviction and power of the Holy Spirit, believers will not indulge the sinful acts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16-21) but will bear the good fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-25).

Since the Father, Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit work together in the life of a believer--why dismiss the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit?--and can a unbeliever really understand the Scriptures--without the Holy Spirit?

 

[Titus]

I'm not calling you a calvinist Dan.
You have calvinist theology implanted into your mind because of Baptist doctrine.
Baptist church comes out of reformed theology.

Many are unaware they interpret the Scriptures through the ideas of the reformers.

Never said it was God's will, yet they were not ready to believe and only God could open their understanding

You just proved you are confused.
You say God directly hid understanding from them.
Now you are saying it is not Gods will for them to not believe and have their hearts hardened.

Cannot be both.
Either you believe Gods will was to blind them from understanding Jesus' gospel
Or you believe they chose not to understand what was understandable from a human intellect.

How is God as you claim blinding them, hiding understanding from them and at the same time
IT IS NOT HIS WILL THAT THEY NOT UNDERSTAND JESUS?

You are once again not making logical sense.

No fatalistic determination here and there was freewill and unbelief involved, yet their understanding still needed opening

More contradicting yourself.
How did they have freewill when you already taught they were without understanding because God hid understanding from them directly?

Here you said God did not allow them to understand,

(John 6:44,65). Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) in and enables us, (John 6:65) we would never come to believe all by ourselves.

Then God did not by His sovereign will draw the apostles to Him that they might believe.
Therefore it must be Gods will that they not believe if He is the agent of their unbelief and hardness of heart.
I know you dont like being labeled a calvinist but you teach their doctrines.
Because you are a Baptist.

You do not understand Scripture.
God draws all, of us the same way He draws all men.
God does not zap faith into Dan.

John 6:44-45,46
-No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him; and I will raise him up in the last day.
It is  written in the prophets and they all shall be taught by God,
therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

We get drawn to God through His written teaching today.
By hearing His word/teaching is how we come to faith in Him.

Romans 10:17,
- Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

I am not against miracles being involved in faith.
During the life of Jesus folks did no have the written completed revelation of God.
Miracles were nessary to impart faith.

Not so today, no miracles today Dan, 1Corinthians 13

We receive faith today through the word of God. Romans 10:17

 

[Johann]

Then God did not by His sovereign will draw the apostles to Him that they might believe.
Therefore it must be Gods will that they not believe if He is the agent of their unbelief and hardness of heart.
I know you dont like being labeled a calvinist but you teach their doctrines.
Because you are a Baptist.

6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him" God always takes the initiative (cf. John 6:65 and 15:16). All spiritual decisions are the result of the of the Spirit, not mankind's religiosity (cf. Isa. 53:6). God's sovereignty and a mandated human response are inseparably linked together by the will and mercy of God. This is the OT concept of covenant.

The balance to this "drawing of God" is found in John 12:32 where Jesus "draws all men to Himself." This drawing reverses the OT pattern of God's people not responding to His prophetic word (examples: Isa. 6:9-13; 29:13; Jeremiah). God now speaks, not through prophets to Israel, but through His Son to all mankind (cf. Heb. 1:1-3).

6:45 "It is written in the prophets" This is a quote from Isa. 54:13 or Jer. 31:34 which describes the internal (new heart, new mind) aspect of the "New Covenant" (cf. Ezek. 36:22-38).

"Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me" It is impossible to claim to know God and reject Jesus (cf. 1 John 5:1-12).

ELECTION

Election is a wonderful doctrine. However, it is not a call to favoritism, but a call to be a channel, a tool or means of others' redemption! In the Old Testament the term was used primarily for service; in the New Testament it is used primarily for salvation which issues in service. The Bible never reconciles the seeming contradiction between God’s sovereignty and mankind's free will, but affirms them both! A good example of the biblical tension would be Romans 9 on God's sovereign choice and Romans 10 on mankind’s necessary response (cf. Rom. 10:11,13).

The key to this theological tension may be found in Eph. 1:4. Jesus is God’s elect man and all are potentially elect in Him (Karl Barth). Jesus is God’s "yes" to fallen mankind’s need (Karl Barth). Ephesians 1:4 also helps clarify the issue by asserting that the goal of predestination is not heaven, but holiness (Christlikeness). We are often attracted to the benefits of the gospel and ignore the responsibilities! God’s call (election) is for time as well as eternity!

Doctrines come in relation to other truths, not as single, unrelated truths. A good analogy would be a constellation versus a single star. God presents truth in eastern, not western, genres. We must not remove the tension caused by dialectical (paradoxical) pairs of doctrinal truths (God as transcendent versus God as immanent. Ex.: Security vs. perseverance; Jesus as equal with the Father vs. Jesus as subservient to the Father; Christian freedom vs. Christian responsibility to a covenant partner; etc.).

The theological concept of "covenant" unites the sovereignty of God (who always takes the initiative and sets the agenda) with a mandatory initial and continuing repentant, faith response from mankind (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21). Be careful of proof-texting one side of the paradox and depreciating the other! Be careful of asserting only your favorite doctrine or system of theology!
Good advice from Utley---

 

[mailmandan]

I'm not calling you a calvinist Dan.
You have calvinist theology implanted into your mind because of Baptist doctrine.
Baptist church comes out of reformed theology.

Many are unaware they interpret the Scriptures through the ideas of the reformers.


You just proved you are confused.
You say God directly hid understanding from them.
Now you are saying it is not Gods will for them to not believe and have their hearts hardened.

Cannot be both.
Either you believe Gods will was to blind them from understanding Jesus' gospel
Or you believe they chose not to understand what was understandable from a human intellect.

How is God as you claim blinding them, hiding understanding from them and at the same time
IT IS NOT HIS WILL THAT THEY NOT UNDERSTAND JESUS?

You are once again not making logical sense.


More contradicting yourself.
How did they have freewill when you already taught they were without understanding because God hid understanding from them directly?

Here you said God did not allow them to understand,

Then God did not by His sovereign will draw the apostles to Him that they might believe.
Therefore it must be Gods will that they not believe if He is the agent of their unbelief and hardness of heart.
I know you dont like being labeled a calvinist but you teach their doctrines.
Because you are a Baptist.

You do not understand Scripture.
God draws all, of us the same way He draws all men.
God does not zap faith into Dan.

John 6:44-45,46
-No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him; and I will raise him up in the last day.
It is  written in the prophets and they all shall be taught by God,
therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

We get drawn to God through His written teaching today.
By hearing His word/teaching is how we come to faith in Him.

Romans 10:17,
- Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

I am not against miracles being involved in faith.
During the life of Jesus folks did no have the written completed revelation of God.
Miracles were nessary to impart faith.

Not so today, no miracles today Dan, 1Corinthians 13

We receive faith today through the word of God. Romans 10:17

You continue to misunderstand and misrepresent what I believe which makes it impossible to have an honest and meaningful discussion.

 

[Titus]

Would you say the above is correct--that men harden their hearts--and that God can also harden the hears of men

Yes, but not in the calvinist explanation.
God never hardens ones heart directly.
It is only through resistance to His word, His will.

If God does cherry pick whom He hardens and whom He saves, without giving the individual choice that makes God evil.
God gives everyone the freewill ability to believe and obey Him.
Calvinism teaches God directly hardens hearts before they can even choose to obey Him.

The Holy Spirit tells what is yet to come. The Holy Spirit is called the “Spirit of Truth” in John 16:13 because he guides believers into all truth

And He does this through His revelation, the word of God, the gospel of Jesus Christ.
No miracles necessary to be guided by God.

The Holy Spirit uses the word as His instrument to teach, guide, bring sinners to repentance and eternal salvation.

Proof the Holy Spirit does all these things through the word,

HOLY SPIRIT. THE WORD
Rom. 8:16 Witnesses Jn. 5:39, Jn 5:6-8
Titus 3:5 Saves James 1:21
2Cor. 3:6. Begotten. James 1:18
Jn. 3:5-8. Born again. 1Peter 1:23
1Cor. 6:11. Cleanses. Jn. 15:2-3
Acts 9:31. Comforts. 1Thes. 4:8
Jn. 16:8. Convicts. Titus 1:9
Gal. 5:22. Faith. Rom. 10:17
Neh. 9:20. Instructs. 2Tim. 3:17
1Cor. 6:11. Justifies. Gal. 2:16
Rom. 8:14. Leads. Psalm 43:3
Rom. 15:13. Power. Heb. 1:3
1Peter 1:22. Purifies. 1Peter 1:22-25


Holy Spirit saves us through the word,
Titus 3:5,
- not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
James 1:21,
- ...and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

Born again by the Holy Spirit through the word,
John 3:5-8,
- The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes, So is everyone who is born of Spirit.
1Peter 1:23,
- having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and abides forever.

and can a unbeliever really understand the Scriptures--without the Holy Spirit?

I do not dismiss the work of the HS in our salvation.
When you read or hear the gospel preached to you, that gospel was delieved to you by the Holy Spirit but not directly from Himself.

The Holy Spirit already did all the work He needed to do to impart faith in the unbeliever.
He delivered the revelation that you read in your Bible.
Have you considered that you would not even know there was such a person as the Holy Spirit without the Scriptures revealing that to you?
Neh. 9:20,
- You also gave Your good Spirit to instruct them.
2Tim. 3:17-18,
- All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine for reproof for correction for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete throughly equipped for every good work.

The theological concept of "covenant" unites the sovereignty of God (who always takes the initiative and sets the agenda) with a mandatory initial and continuing repentant, faith response from mankind (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21). Be careful of proof-texting one side of the paradox and depreciating the other! Be careful of asserting only your favorite doctrine or system of theology!
Good advice from Utley

My favorite doctrine is the doctrine of Christ,
Galatians 6:2,
- Bear one anothers burdens and so fullfil the the law of Christ.

Terrible advice from Utley,
Follow different theologies?
Not one?
Only one "theology" can be true.

I dont reject the working of God in our drawing.
As I already stated,
God draws us by His word.
Man does not do it alone.
Without the word God has given us we would not know where the Lord is.
Just as we would not know who the HS is if it were not for the word of God.

Romans 9:18

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

2) "And whom he will be hardeneth," (hon dethelei sklerunei) "yet, whom he divinely wills, he hardens;- Or allows them the opportunity to harden themselves, in giving them life, health, and necessities of life, as he causeth the sun to shine and sendeth the rain upon the just and the unjust, Act_17:28;

Gods desire is that all come to repentance,
2Peter 3:9,
- ...not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance.

God only hardens the hearts of those that reject him by their own choice.
He does not do this miraculously apart from His word.

 

[Titus]

You continue to misunderstand and misrepresent what I believe which makes it impossible to have an honest and meaningful discussion.

I'm so dis-honest that when I err, I admit it and repent.

 

[Johann]

Follow different theologies?

Would you please reread what Utley said?--he did not say "following different theologies---" This is deflecting--a proof that you do not read slowly, perhaps a mistake, not intentionally, on your part?

 

[Johann]

Gods desire is that all come to repentance,
2Peter 3:9,
- ...not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance.

God only hardens the hearts of those that reject him by their own choice.
He does not do this miraculously apart from His word.

Why is the world at present perishing?

 

[Titus]

Why is the world at present perishing?

Freewill

 

[Titus]

Would you please reread what Utley said?--he did not say "following different theologies---" This is deflecting--a proof that you do not read slowly, perhaps a mistake, not intentionally, on your part?

What good would it do for me to misrepresent others and destroy my credibility?

Be careful of asserting only your favorite doctrine or system of theology!
Good advice from Utley---

That can only mean there are more than one system of Biblical interpretation to follow.
What if my theology is the truth, Gods word and not the ideas of men?
Should I follow another?

 

[Johann]

That can only mean there are more than one system of Biblical interpretation to follow.
What if my theology is the truth, Gods word and not the ideas of men?
Should I follow another?

Touché brother--any commentary is the works and ideas of other men, traditions of men--I find Utley refreshing and listen to most of his sermons, a Baptist minister, his notes are also refreshing and we eat the chicken and spit out the sticks, hey?

 

[Titus]

You continue to misunderstand and misrepresent what I believe which makes it impossible to have an honest and meaningful discussion

I might have misunderstood but I would never intentionally misrepresent another person.
I teach Baptist's all the time. All your beliefs and arguments are text book Baptist theology.
I know you dont subscribe to being Baptist. But you should go talk to Baptist, you have a great deal in common. I cannot distinguish a difference.
I'm a christian only in the church of Christ as you know.
I know what I am and I'm not ashamed of it.

You just proved you are confused.
You say God directly hid understanding from them.
Now you are saying it is not Gods will for them to not believe and have their hearts hardened.

Cannot be both.
Either you believe Gods will was to blind them from understanding Jesus' gospel
Or you believe they chose not to understand what was understandable from a human intellect.

How is God as you claim blinding them, hiding understanding from them and at the same time
IT IS NOT HIS WILL THAT THEY NOT UNDERSTAND JESUS?

You are once again not making logical sense

This is not misrepresentation.
Heres the proof,

Whether in regards to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus or what was shared with the multitude, apart from God, man will not understand the things of God all by his fleshly self.

opened their understanding to comprehend the Scriptures" means they were fully capable of comprehending the Scriptures exclusively on their own, apart from God? Is that what you are saying?

Dan is asking this because He does not believe they are capable of understanding until God allows them to understand. Therefore God is the agent of their ignorance/unbelief/harness of heart.

These words are clear, yet you still cannot comprehend. You need a miraculous awakening from the Holy Spirit.

Dan does not believe man can understand because God has not allowed them to understand.

They could not believe what was hidden from them. But after having their understanding opened, they understood

This goes beyond mere human understanding and involves a supernatural opening of their understanding to comprehend the Scriptures. The natural man does not understand. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

This is the Total depravity view of why the disciples(apostles) could not understand that Jesus would be ressurected. Calvinism teaches no one can know God or come to God or understand God because we are born totally depraved.
God must work a miracle on us to believe, understand His word.

Dan shows he believes the only way for me to understand the Scriptures is for the
Holy Spirit to work a miracle on me to open my understanding.

What if God does not send His Holy Spirit to open my understanding of the Scriptures?
who then is to blame for my "unbelief " currently?

One false teaching in calvinism leads to another,
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
If God does not perform a miracle on me to open my understanding that I might comprehend the Scriptures as Dan believes,
Then I was not chosen by God to be elected.
My faith now rests on Gods shoulders not my own!

if I'm not saved it is because God did not open my understanding, therefore unconditional election,
God did not die for everyone, only a select few, LIMITED ATONEMENT
Thankfully I dont need a Holy Spirit miracle to understand and believe the Scriptures.
Therefore it's up to me whether I will allow God to save me or resist Him.

Dan also has this belief FOR THE REASON THE APOSTLES COULD NOT UNDERSTAND JESUS' PLAIN LANGUAGE WHEN HE TOLD THEM HE WOULD RAISE FROM THE DEAD.

According to Dan's theology the apostles did not believe because God had not given them the ability to believe.
Therefore God is the cause of their unbelief and hardness of heart.
No way!


Dan now flip flops and claims God is not the agent by which their understanding was hid from them.
Even though this is what He believes.
This is why Dan is confused,
Here is Dan claiming He never said God hid their understanding from them,

I did not say that Jesus never wanted them to understand, but at this point, they still did not understand and it was not until Jesus opened their understanding that they did comprehend the Scriptures and then they did fully understand

Dan said "I did not say that Jesus never wanted them to understand"

Yes, Dan that is what you have been teaching this entire conversation.
That God hid understanding from them, intentionally!

You already taught for a person to believe God has to miraculously give them the ability to believe.
That is why you keep quoting over and over, Luke 18:34,

Apparently you don't believe Luke 18:34 - And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken

Dan is confused on why the apostles did not believe Jesus when He told the apostles H would be killed and raise from the dead.
First He said God caused their unbelief.
Then he says God never desired for them to not believe.

I do not contradict myself.
Jesus alway wanted them to believe.
God did not desire to hinder them from believing.
God did not directly harden their hearts.
Because of freewill they chose to not believe Jesus' teaching
Their hearts were hardened by their own doing.
This is why it makes sense for Jesus to rebuke them for their unbelief and hardness of heart,
Mark 16:14

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm so dis-honest that when I err, I admit it and repent.

Yet you read everything Dan says through a calvinist slant. And continually misrepresent what he believes.

Will you repent?