A Test Of Reading Comprehension and Honesty

[mailmandan]

You have changed the discussion to the apostles teaching to the Jews i.e. the limited commission.
We are not discussing what those Jews who heard the limited commission needed to believe.

We are discussing what the apostles THEMSELVES were to believe!
Have you forgotten? Or did you conveniently leave out,
Matthew 17:9,
Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them(soon to be apostles)
Saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is risen from the dead.

Jesus told them directly!
Not a parable that they could not understand.

What Jesus told His apostles has nothing to do with what Jesus had them preach to the Jewish nation in the limited commission.
You're making issue of the preaching to the Jews has nothing to do with what the apostles themselves were told directly from Jesus.


No, I dont call progressive revelation moving the goal posts.
You changing your definition of saving faith is moving the goal posts.

I dont need to show where the apostles were preaching the death, burial and ressurection of Christ to the Jews in the limited commission.
This again is not about the preaching of the apostles.
This is about what Jesus directly told the apostles.
The apostles knew things that other Jews had no knowledge of at this time.
The apostles had no reason to be ignorant of Jesus' ressurection.
Other Jews did have reason to be ignorant, but not the ones who were told!

You keep ignoring this fact! Jesus told them He was going to be resurrected from the dead.

Your explanation of the jew being ignorant of the gentiles being chosen by God in the future(progressive revelation) has nothing to do with our discussion of the apostles unbelief in Jesus' ressurection.

Long before the Jews knew the gentiles would be chosen as Gods people.
The Jews, specifically the apostles were already chosen to know that Jesus was going to die, be buried and then ressurect from the dead.

Dan, THIS WAS NOT PART OF THE MYSTERY FOR THE APOSTLES!!!
They were already told! Back in Matthew 17:9.

This is why Jesus REBUKED their unbelief and hardness of heart.
It would make no sense if Jesus rebuked a gentle at this time in Jesus' earthly ministry.
Why? Because these THINGS had not been revealed to them.

It should be obvious that it is only fair to rebuke someone of unbelief,
If they have already been shown the truth!

The proof you are wrong is Jesus rebuked their unbelief.
If they were ignorant as you are claiming.
Then Jesus had no right to rebuke them for not believing in
His ressurection.

Gentiles and other Jews had excuse at this time.
It was not revealed to them.
But it was revealed to the apostles about the coming death, burial and ressurection.

Matthew 13:10-11,
- And the disciples came and said to Jesus, why do you speak in parables?
Jesus answered and said to them,
Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them, it has not been given.

When Jesus told His apostles that He would be ressurected from the dead,
Matthew 17:9.
Things were revealed to the apostles BEFORE they were to others,
V. 9 - Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is risen from the dead.
He was not speaking in parables!
He plainly told them.
This is why they should have faith in the ressurection.
This is why Jesus rightly rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart.

Dan, believes true faith is believing in the death, burial and ressurection, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Now Dan is claiming saving faith can be unbelief and hardness of heart of the ressurection.
This has nothing to do with progressive revelation for the Jews and gentiles.
The apostles were told before others learned about the death, burial and ressurection.
The apostles were chosen to know these things before the gospel was fully revealed.

I already thoroughly explained this to you multiple times, but you continue to double down on the same false accusations and twisting of scripture. You are extremely stubborn! Be sure to go back and read and meditate on the scriptures that I explained to you in post #258 along with my other posts. If the truth is what you are looking for, then you will find it in the scriptures and explanations that I already shared with you in my posts. If accommodating your biased church doctrine and winning your argument at all costs (in crafty lawyer fashion) is the only thing you are interested in, then you won't accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you. Let me know when you are ready to REPENT and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.

 

[Taken]

You cannot interpret this passage in isolation. So what did Jesus say in John 11:25,26? Did He mention baptism? If not, why not, since He is always consistent? And I could send a host of passages your way to be interpreted in light of the whole Gospel.

Agree.
IF … THEN… is key to the knowledge revealed in Scripture.

IF a man Believes…(to the day of his Bodily Death)…THEN shall that man be Saved.

IF a man Believes …(but Stops Believing Before his Bodily Death)…THEN he shall be accounted as having Fallen Away…and Shall be Damned.

IF a man Believes…IN his hearts Thoughts….AND …CONFESSES….his True hearts thoughts Belief…THEN that man SHALL be accounted Bodily Crucified with Jesus…AND THEN (at that moment)…
*The mans BODY…is Accepted as given Dead unto God.
*The mans SOUL…is Restored to very good and accounted IS Saved.
*The mans natural spirit is accounted Born Again via the SEED of God.
* That man IS with Forever the Lord God Almighty.
* Forever the Lord God Almighty IS With that man.
* Nothing whatsoever can Separate that individual From the Lord God Almighty.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Titus]

I already thoroughly explained this to you multiple times, but you continue to double down on the same false accusations and twisting of scripture. You are extremely stubborn! Be sure to go back and read and meditate on the scriptures that I explained to you in post #258 along with my other posts. If the truth is what you are looking for, then you will find it in the scriptures and explanations that I already shared with you in my posts. If accommodating your biased church doctrine and winning your argument at all costs (in crafty lawyer fashion) is the only thing you are interested in, then you won't accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you. Let me know when you are ready to REPENT and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.

You have failed to give any scripture that supports your position that those with unbelief and hardness of heart will be in heaven.
I'm still waiting for you to give scripture that teaches hardened hearts will be saved.

 

[ChristisGod]

You cannot interpret this passage in isolation. So what did Jesus say in John 11:25,26? Did He mention baptism? If not, why not, since He is always consistent? And I could send a host of passages your way to be interpreted in light of the whole Gospel.

Amen the loaded question fallacy. We can quote all the other passages from Jesus where baptism is not mentoned since the OP quoted the only one and it would be used against his argument since baptism and salvation are only mentioned in this isolated passage. The other thing is the ending of Mark which the OP quotes from is highly disputed text and is in paranthesis for a good reason. The manuscript evidence is lacking for its authenticity. In fact there is irony with the title of the OP when it comes to "comprehension" and " honesty".

 

[mailmandan]

You have failed to give any scripture that supports your position that those with unbelief and hardness of heart will be in heaven.
I'm still waiting for you to give scripture that teaches hardened hearts will be saved.

You just failed to accept the scriptural support that I provided. There is a difference between a hard heart that does not at first believe the testimony of eyewitnesses to the resurrection of Christ and a hard heart that prevents one from believing in Christ unto salvation (John 3:16-18; 20:31) prior to this present dispensation.

You need to be less concerned with condemning the disciples for not initially believing the eye witness account of those who saw Christ resurrected during the transition in progressive revelation and more concerned with your unbelief and hard heart towards believing the gospel in this present dispensation. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

 

[ChristisGod]

You have changed the discussion to the apostles teaching to the Jews i.e. the limited commission.
We are not discussing what those Jews who heard the limited commission needed to believe.

We are discussing what the apostles THEMSELVES were to believe!
Have you forgotten? Or did you conveniently leave out,
Matthew 17:9,
Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them(soon to be apostles)
Saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is risen from the dead.

Jesus told them directly!
Not a parable that they could not understand.

What Jesus told His apostles has nothing to do with what Jesus had them preach to the Jewish nation in the limited commission.
You're making issue of the preaching to the Jews has nothing to do with what the apostles themselves were told directly from Jesus.


No, I dont call progressive revelation moving the goal posts.
You changing your definition of saving faith is moving the goal posts.

I dont need to show where the apostles were preaching the death, burial and ressurection of Christ to the Jews in the limited commission.
This again is not about the preaching of the apostles.
This is about what Jesus directly told the apostles.
The apostles knew things that other Jews had no knowledge of at this time.
The apostles had no reason to be ignorant of Jesus' ressurection.
Other Jews did have reason to be ignorant, but not the ones who were told!

You keep ignoring this fact! Jesus told them He was going to be resurrected from the dead.

Your explanation of the jew being ignorant of the gentiles being chosen by God in the future(progressive revelation) has nothing to do with our discussion of the apostles unbelief in Jesus' ressurection.

Long before the Jews knew the gentiles would be chosen as Gods people.
The Jews, specifically the apostles were already chosen to know that Jesus was going to die, be buried and then ressurect from the dead.

Dan, THIS WAS NOT PART OF THE MYSTERY FOR THE APOSTLES!!!
They were already told! Back in Matthew 17:9.

This is why Jesus REBUKED their unbelief and hardness of heart.
It would make no sense if Jesus rebuked a gentle at this time in Jesus' earthly ministry.
Why? Because these THINGS had not been revealed to them.

It should be obvious that it is only fair to rebuke someone of unbelief,
If they have already been shown the truth!

The proof you are wrong is Jesus rebuked their unbelief.
If they were ignorant as you are claiming.
Then Jesus had no right to rebuke them for not believing in
His ressurection.

Gentiles and other Jews had excuse at this time.
It was not revealed to them.
But it was revealed to the apostles about the coming death, burial and ressurection.

Matthew 13:10-11,
- And the disciples came and said to Jesus, why do you speak in parables?
Jesus answered and said to them,
Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them, it has not been given.

When Jesus told His apostles that He would be ressurected from the dead,
Matthew 17:9.
Things were revealed to the apostles BEFORE they were to others,
V. 9 - Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is risen from the dead.
He was not speaking in parables!
He plainly told them.
This is why they should have faith in the ressurection.
This is why Jesus rightly rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart.

Dan, believes true faith is believing in the death, burial and ressurection, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Now Dan is claiming saving faith can be unbelief and hardness of heart of the ressurection.
This has nothing to do with progressive revelation for the Jews and gentiles.
The apostles were told before others learned about the death, burial and ressurection.
The apostles were chosen to know these things before the gospel was fully revealed.

The disciples did not understand the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus which is the gospel. They did not believe it until they physically saw Jesus Resurrected from the dead.

Matthew 16:8-11
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?


Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

Mark 8:31-33
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

Jesus predicts His death a 3rd time

Luke 18:31-34
Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.


Luke 24:25-26
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?

John 13
Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.”


hope this helps !!!

 

[Titus]

You just failed to accept the scriptural support that I provided. There is a difference between a hard heart that does not at first believe the testimony of eyewitnesses to the resurrection of Christ and a hard heart that prevents one from believing in Christ unto salvation (John 3:16-18; 20:31) prior to this present dispensation

This is dodging the question.
I asked you if the apostles died in their unbelief and hardness of heart, would they be saved or lost.
Your answer is their faith returned.
That is after the fact.
You gave zero scripture for your claim that the apostles would be saved at the time they had lost faith and had hardness of heart.

Of course we both agree once they believed in Jesus' ressurection, they would be saved.
Because they NO LONGER HAD HARDNESS OF HEART.
I'm waiting for you to give an answer to your doctrine that those with hardened hearts will be saved, as you claim.

 

[Titus]

The disciples did not understand the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus which is the gospel. They did not believe it until they physically saw Jesus Resurrected from the dead.

Matthew 16:8-11
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?


Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

Mark 8:31-33
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

Jesus predicts His death a 3rd time

Luke 18:31-34
Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.


Luke 24:25-26
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?

John 13
Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.”


hope this helps !!!

Hello, this is not information that I do not already know and believe.

Have you read through our entire conversation?
If not you may be missing the point in trying to get across with Dan.

Jesus tells them what is going to happen to Him.
That does not mean they cannot understand anything He is telling them.

Why would Jesus tell them these things if they had no ability to understand anything He was teaching?

They did not understand fully why Jesus had to be crucified and then raise from the dead.
If God told you something right now. Would you have to understand it to believe it?

There are things written in the Bible that we do not understand today.
But we still believe it.

Just as the apostles were told by Jesus that He would ressurect from the dead.
They did not have to understand in order to have faith that Jesus was telling them the truth.

Also,
Would you rebuke a baby for not understanding algebra?
If you taught a baby math, and the baby did not comprehend the teaching,
Would you rebuke the baby for not understanding?

First you would not teach a baby math.
Why? Because they could not understand so its pointless.

Why then was Jesus teaching the apostles if Dan is right and they could not understand what Jesus was teaching them?
That makes Jesus teaching pointless!


The apostles did have the ability to understand that Jesus was going to ressurect from the dead.
They did not fully understand why He had to be crucified and ressurect from death.

Therefore it makes sense for Jesus to rebuke their hardness of heart and unbelief.
If they had no ability to understand anything He taught them, then it was wrong for Jesus to rebuke them for not understanding what He said in Matthew 17:9,
- Now as they(apostles) came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is risen from the dead.

why would Jesus tell them not to tell what happened until He rose from the dead if they could not understand what He is telling them?
Dan's position is illogical.
Jesus spoke in parables when He did not want the hearers to understand.
Jesus told them in common language so that they would understand.
They chose to not believe by freewill.
This is why it makes sense for Jesus to later rebuke them for their unbelief.

 

[mailmandan]

This is dodging the question.
I asked you if the apostles died in their unbelief and hardness of heart, would they be saved or lost.
Your answer is their faith returned.
That is after the fact.
You gave zero scripture for your claim that the apostles would be saved at the time they had lost faith and had hardness of heart.

Of course we both agree once they believed in Jesus' ressurection, they would be saved.
Because they NO LONGER HAD HARDNESS OF HEART.
I'm waiting for you to give an answer to your doctrine that those with hardened hearts will be saved, as you claim.

I did not dodge anything and once again,
prior to the death of Jesus, He told the disciples that He had to die and that he would rise on the third day. However, the disciples were ignorant of its meaning.

“Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem,…And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. (Luke 18:31-34)

There was no faith in the resurrection of Jesus to return to and it was not until after the resurrection of Jesus that He opened their understanding. (Luke 24:44-47) All along they believed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God (Mathew 16:16; John 6:68-69; 20:31) and remained saved. All except for Judas Iscariot who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

Are you ready to REPENT and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL?

 

[Titus]

understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. (Luke 18:31-34)

You don't make sense.
If they could not understand Jesus when He said He would ressurect from the dead,
Then it was wrong for Jesus to rebuke them for unbelief and hardness of heart.

You keep wrongfully claiming the apostles could not understand what Jesus told them, to be killed,
Raised from the dead.

What they did not understand is why He had to die and raise from the dead!
They were capable of believing that these things would take place.

Peter understands what Jesus is telling him,
Matthew 16:21-22,
- From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and be raised the third day.

Now listen to Peter, Dan.
Peter understood that Jesus is going to be killed and raise from the dead,
Verse 22,
- Then Peter took Jesus aside and began to rebuke Him saying, Far be it from You Lord;that this shall not happen to You

Peter understood Jesus.
But he did not understand the reason why.

As I've tried to explain to you,
Faith can be without full understanding.
The apostles did not need to understand everything Jesus said.
They just needed to believe it!

Your position is they did not even have the ability to believe that He would ressurect from the dead,
AS HE PLAINLY TOLD THEM.

Peter proves you wrong for he did understand what Jesus said and that is why he rebuked Jesus.
It is only fair to rebuke someone of their unbelief if they can understand.
It would have been wrong for Jesus to rebuke the apostles in Mark 16:14 if God had not given them the ability to understand what He was telling them.

 

[mailmandan]

You don't make sense.

I make sense. You still just don't understand and there is a reason for that.

If they could not understand Jesus when He said He would ressurect from the dead,

Again, then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem,…And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. (Luke 18:31-34) Jesus did not rebuke them here. It was not until after His resurrection that Jesus rebuked them because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. (Mark 16:21)

Then it was wrong for Jesus to rebuke them for unbelief and hardness of heart.

It was not wrong for Jesus to rebuke them in Mark 16:21, but nothing is mentioned here about Jesus condemning them. They may have been slow to believe at first, but eventually they came to believe after Jesus appeared to them and opened their understanding in Luke 24:44-47 - Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

You keep wrongfully claiming the apostles could not understand what Jesus told them, to be killed,
Raised from the dead.

What part of "they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken" (Luke 18:31-34) don't you understand? Instead of being worried about the disciples being condemned for their lack of understanding here, you need to be worried about your own unbelief. The gospel is hid to those who don't believe.

What they did not understand is why He had to die and raise from the dead!
They were capable of believing that these things would take place.

So "they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken" equates to capable? Yet later Jesus opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Reading the Scriptures is not like reading a text book that we merely understand through human intelligence.

Peter understands what Jesus is telling him,
Matthew 16:21-22,
- From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and be raised the third day.

Now listen to Peter, Dan.
Peter understood that Jesus is going to be killed and raise from the dead,
Verse 22,
- Then Peter took Jesus aside and began to rebuke Him saying, Far be it from You Lord; that this shall not happen to You
Peter understood Jesus.
But he did not understand the reason why.

Peter said, "this shall not happen to You" which goes beyond simply not understanding why.

As I've tried to explain to you,
Faith can be without full understanding.
The apostles did not need to understand everything Jesus said.
They just needed to believe it!

Even though the apostles at first did not understand because it was hid from them that Jesus would be delivered over to the Gentiles, be mock him, insulted, spit on, flogged and killed and on the third day rise again were slow to believe at first the testimony from eyewitnesses that Jesus has risen from the dead, they did believe that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God (Mathew 16:16; John 6:68-69; 20:31) and were saved. They were clean. All "except for Judas Iscariot" who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) You still just need to believe the gospel! (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16)

Your position is they did not even have the ability to believe that He would ressurect from the dead,
AS HE PLAINLY TOLD THEM.

My position is in agreement with Luke 18:34 - But the disciples understood none of these things, and the meaning of this statement was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said.

Peter proves you wrong for he did understand what Jesus said and that is why he rebuked Jesus.

You have been proven wrong throughout our conversation. Peter understood in theory "suffer many things and be killed" but still did not truly comprehend these things. (Luke 18:31-34) How does that song go? "You can see the stars and still not see the light."

It is only fair to rebuke someone of their unbelief if they can understand. It would have been wrong for Jesus to rebuke the apostles in Mark 16:14 if God had not given them the ability to understand what He was telling them.

Jesus rebuked them in Mark 16:14 because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. I hope and pray that the Lord opens your understanding to the Scriptures and you will finally come to REPENT and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.

 

[Johann]

It was not wrong for Jesus to rebuke them in Mark 16:21, but nothing is mentioned here about Jesus condemning them. They may have been slow to believe at first, but eventually they came to believe after Jesus appeared to them and opened their understanding in Luke 24:44-47 - Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

And they perceived not (kai ouk eginōskon). Imperfect active. They kept on not perceiving. Twice already Luke has said this in the same sentence.
They understood none of these things (ouden toutōn sunēkan). First aorist active indicative, a summary statement.

This saying was hid from them (ēn to rhēma touto kekrummenon ap' autōn). Past perfect passive indicative (periphrastic), state of completion. It was a puzzling experience. No wonder that Luke tries three times to explain the continued failure of the apostles to understand Jesus. The words of Christ about his death ran counter to all their hopes and beliefs.
Robertson

 

[ChristisGod]

You don't make sense.
If they could not understand Jesus when He said He would ressurect from the dead,
Then it was wrong for Jesus to rebuke them for unbelief and hardness of heart.

You keep wrongfully claiming the apostles could not understand what Jesus told them, to be killed,
Raised from the dead.

What they did not understand is why He had to die and raise from the dead!
They were capable of believing that these things would take place.

Peter understands what Jesus is telling him,
Matthew 16:21-22,
- From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and be raised the third day.

Now listen to Peter, Dan.
Peter understood that Jesus is going to be killed and raise from the dead,
Verse 22,
- Then Peter took Jesus aside and began to rebuke Him saying, Far be it from You Lord;that this shall not happen to You

Peter understood Jesus.
But he did not understand the reason why.

As I've tried to explain to you,
Faith can be without full understanding.
The apostles did not need to understand everything Jesus said.
They just needed to believe it!

Your position is they did not even have the ability to believe that He would ressurect from the dead,
AS HE PLAINLY TOLD THEM.

Peter proves you wrong for he did understand what Jesus said and that is why he rebuked Jesus.
It is only fair to rebuke someone of their unbelief if they can understand.
It would have been wrong for Jesus to rebuke the apostles in Mark 16:14 if God had not given them the ability to understand what He was telling them.

In Mark 6 we have Jesus feeding the 4,000 and the disciples

By this time it was late in the day, so his disciples came to him. “This is a remote place,” they said, “and it’s already very late. 36 Send the people away so that they can go to the surrounding countryside and villages and buy themselves something to eat.”


37 But he answered, “You give them something to eat.”

They said to him, “That would take more than half a year’s wages[e]! Are we to go and spend that much on bread and give it to them to eat?”


38 “How many loaves do you have?” he asked. “Go and see.”

When they found out, they said, “Five—and two fish.”


39 Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass. 40 So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties. 41 Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to distribute to the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. 42 They all ate and were satisfied, 43 and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. 44 The number of the men who had eaten was five thousand.

Now 2 chapters later the exact same scenario. The disciples must have short term memory loss. They have a comprehension issue like you title implies in this thread.

Mark 8- Jesus just performed the same miracle with the same disciples and look what they do below !

During those days another large crowd gathered. Since they had nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples to him and said, 2 “I have compassion for these people; they have already been with me three days and have nothing to eat. 3 If I send them home hungry, they will collapse on the way, because some of them have come a long distance.”


4 His disciples answered, “But where in this remote place can anyone get enough bread to feed them?”


5 “How many loaves do you have?” Jesus asked.

“Seven,” they replied.


6 He told the crowd to sit down on the ground. When he had taken the seven loaves and given thanks, he broke them and gave them to his disciples to distribute to the people, and they did so. 7 They had a few small fish as well; he gave thanks for them also and told the disciples to distribute them. 8 The people ate and were satisfied. Afterward the disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 9 About four thousand were present. After he had sent them away, 10 he got into the boat with his disciples and went to the region of Dalmanutha.

 

[Earburner]

Please read the Bible verses and then answer the multiple choice questions.

Question: What did Jesus say in Mark 16:15-16?

Mark 16:15-16,
-And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the GOSPEL to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Did Jesus say?

a) he that does not believe and is not baptized will be saved...
b) he that believes and is saved will then be baptized...
c) he that believes and is baptized will be saved...
d) he that does not believe but is baptized will be saved....

If you answered a)
Incorrect
You might be a Muslim or Jew or atheist for they believe no one is saved by Jesus.

If you answered a)
Incorrect
You might be a universalist because everyone is going to heaven despite what one believes.

If you answered b)
Incorrect
You might be a follower of the reformed, protestant doctrines of the 15th to 16th century i.e. Faith Onlyism.

If you answered d)
Incorrect
You might be a catholic for babies do not believe yet are baptized to be saved.

If you answered c)
Correct
You might be an alien sinner who is searching for the truth.

If you answered c)
Correct
You might be a Bible believing christian.

If you failed this test, you either need help with comprehension, or you may have been indoctrinated into false doctrines conceived from blind men.

Those with honest hearts and basic English comprehension skills will answer c)

Being baptized by water does NOT save anyone from eternal death. It is when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit, then are we saved from eternal death. Rom. 8:8-9.

 

[Titus]

In Mark 6 we have Jesus feeding the 4,000 and the disciples

By this time it was late in the day, so his disciples came to him. “This is a remote place,” they said, “and it’s already very late. 36 Send the people away so that they can go to the surrounding countryside and villages and buy themselves something to eat.”


37 But he answered, “You give them something to eat.”

They said to him, “That would take more than half a year’s wages[e]! Are we to go and spend that much on bread and give it to them to eat?”


38 “How many loaves do you have?” he asked. “Go and see.”

When they found out, they said, “Five—and two fish.”


39 Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass. 40 So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties. 41 Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to distribute to the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. 42 They all ate and were satisfied, 43 and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. 44 The number of the men who had eaten was five thousand.

Now 2 chapters later the exact same scenario. The disciples must have short term memory loss. They have a comprehension issue like you title implies in this thread.

Mark 8- Jesus just performed the same miracle with the same disciples and look what they do below !

During those days another large crowd gathered. Since they had nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples to him and said, 2 “I have compassion for these people; they have already been with me three days and have nothing to eat. 3 If I send them home hungry, they will collapse on the way, because some of them have come a long distance.”


4 His disciples answered, “But where in this remote place can anyone get enough bread to feed them?”


5 “How many loaves do you have?” Jesus asked.

“Seven,” they replied.


6 He told the crowd to sit down on the ground. When he had taken the seven loaves and given thanks, he broke them and gave them to his disciples to distribute to the people, and they did so. 7 They had a few small fish as well; he gave thanks for them also and told the disciples to distribute them. 8 The people ate and were satisfied. Afterward the disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 9 About four thousand were present. After he had sent them away, 10 he got into the boat with his disciples and went to the region of Dalmanutha.

You either are ignorant of the Scriptures or you have an agenda like Dan.
Do you know why Dan is teaching men that are unbelievers and have hardened hearts will be in heaven?
It is because he cannot allow someone who has believed once that later loses faith to be lost!
Because he believes in Once Saved Always Saved. Therefore he makes ridiculous arguments that unbelievers with hardness of heart will be saved in heaven.

He has failed to give one passage that teaches we can have hardness of hearts i.e. unbelief and be saved while in unbelief.
Dan tries to redefine faith by claiming unbelief is accepted if based on not believing those who told the apostles Jesus has risen from the dead.
It is an irrelevant argument.
Heres why.
If God told you He will raise from the dead
Then others come and tell you He raised from the dead.
And you do not believe what others told you.
THAT IS CALLED UNBELIEF.
The apostles did not believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
That is called unbelief and hardness of heart by Jesus Himself.
You and Dan can argue all you want that they did not believe someone else's testamony.
It doesn't change the fact that Jesus rebuked them for not believing!
You understand you dont rebuke someone for when they are in the right?
You only rebuke someone for WHEN THEY ARE COMMITING SIN!

Jesus did not excuse their unbelief because they did not belief others.
Jesus rebuked the apostles because they did not believe HIM when He told them He was going to be ressurected.
Jesus also rebuked them for not believing the eyewitnesses that told them He had risen!

Dan has a very poor argument.
It doesn't make their unbelief and hardness of heart any better.
God rebuked them.
Dan excuses them.
I'll take Gods position that they were wrong for not believing.
Not mans position that their sin was not their fault.
It was their fault otherwise they would not have been REBUKED BY GOD!

Do you two understand what rebuking means?

I will address the loves of bread issue since you use it as a proof text against me.

Do you not know what Jesus said about those disciples that wondered how they would be feed after already seeing with their own eyes a miracle of food multiplication?

Mark 6:52,
- For they had not understood about the loaves, becausetheir hearts were hardened.

Just like the apostles in Mark 16:14,
Hardness of heart = unbelief

Mark 2:5,
- And when Jesus looked around at them with  ANGER being grieved by the hardness of their hearts, He said to the man, Stretch out your hand.
And he stretched out his hand and it was restored as whole as the other.

Why was Jesus angry with them if they could not understand?
Your position does not make sense.
God cannot be angry with someone who He has not given them the ability to believe!
Unless you and Dan believe in calvinism.
Dan's position is the calvinist position that God gets angry with those who dont believe that He caused not to believe!
That is called ignorance of understanding Scripture and ignorance of the nature of God.

Mark 7:16-21,
- And they reasoned among themselves saying, it is because we have no bread.
But Jesus being aware of it, said to them,
Why? do you reason because you have no bread?
Do you not yet perceive nor understand ?
Is your heart still hardened?
having eyes you do not see?
And having ears, do you not hear?
and do you not remember?
When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand how many baskets full of fragments did you take up?
They said to Him, twelve.
Also when I broke the seven for the thousand how many large basket full of fragments did you take up?
And they said seven.
So Jesus said to them, How is it you do not understand?

According to Dan and you they could not understand.
Then Why is Jesus asking them why they dont understand?
He is God! You know He knows why.
Jesus would not ask them why they dont understand,
IF GOD HAD NOT GIVEN THEM THE ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND LIKE YOU AND DAN CLAIM.

This is why Dan's argument does not make a lick of sense!

Jesus is giving a question: "why dont you understand, you already saw that I can multiple food"
Jesus point is they should already have faith in Him, yet they still doubt.

As I have said it does not require full understanding of what God tells you, to believe, have faith in what He tells you.
Jesus was angry because those miracles were to open their eyes, so that they might believe in Him.
Jesus had no reason to be angry if God directly closed their eyes to not understand.

God never directly hardened someone's heart before they had the ability to believe.
That would be evil.
God hardens hearts when He gives the the evidence to believe in Him, then you chose not to believe, then because of rejecting the evidence your heart becomes hard.
Therefore unbelief hardens the heart.
We harden our own hearts when we go against what God has revealed to us.
In this case miracles of multiplying food.

Hebrews 3:8-12,
-Today if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion...
Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works(miracles just like these folks) for forty years.
Therefore I was  angry with that generation, and said they always go astray(meaning they were once faithful, understanding) in their heart,
Beware brethren lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

These verses help us understand that their hardness of hearts was unbelief.
Jesus performed miracles that they might believe in Him,
Proof Dan is wrong that God hid all understanding from the apostles is the fact that many did believe in Jesus when He taught and performed miracles.
This proves their understanding was possible but because of unbelief their hearts were hardened.

John 8:30,
- As Jesus spoke these words many believed in Him.

Conclusion: Jesus' miracles was so they might believe.
There is no reason they could not understand Jesus when He directly told them,
Matthew 17:9,
- Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is risen from the dead.
Mark 16:14,
- Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table and Jesus rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

John 20:30-31,
- And truly Jesus did many signs in in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God and that believing you may have life in His name.

Why are the miracles recorded?
So that we may have faith
This is why Jesus performed miracles in front of the disciples that they may have faith.
Faith in the ressurection was not hindered from the apostles.
Faith in Jesus was not Biden from the multitude that Jesus fed with a miracle.
They chose to harden their hearts because they did not believe.

 

[Titus]

And they perceived not (kai ouk eginōskon). Imperfect active. They kept on not perceiving. Twice already Luke has said this in the same sentence.
They understood none of these things (ouden toutōn sunēkan). First aorist active indicative, a summary statement.

This saying was hid from them (ēn to rhēma touto kekrummenon ap' autōn). Past perfect passive indicative (periphrastic), state of completion. It was a puzzling experience. No wonder that Luke tries three times to explain the continued failure of the apostles to understand Jesus. The words of Christ about his death ran counter to all their hopes and beliefs.
Robertson

Was God the cause of their unbelief in the ressurection or was it by their own free will that they did not believe?
Mark 16:14,
- Later Jesus appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

If they are without understanding because God hid understanding from them as Dan is claiming.
That would be reformed theology aka calvinism.

Is that what took place?
Or were their hearts hardened because they did not like the message Jesus was telling them?
Did Peter understand Jesus when He said, He would be killed and raise from the dead?
Or was Peter incapable of understanding the words coming out of Jesus' mouth?

If Peter was incapable of understanding that Jesus was going to be killed and raise from the dead.
Then why did Jesus waist His breath telling him what would soon take place?
Jesus is God, Jesus would have known that Peter could not understand what He was trying to explain to His apostles.
So, why then explain something that you already know cannot be understood?
Jesus knew they could understand Him, just that they did not at this time fully understand why.
That is why later Jesus opens their understanding to the Scriptures. Luke 24:45.
Even though this is stated here in Luke. Their understanding was not opened fully until the received Holy Spirit baptism in Acts 2.
Read on in Luke 24:49,
- behold I send the promise of My Father upon you: but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.

It is at Jerusalem thd apostles will have all remembrance of the old testament and all that Jesus taught them during His earthly ministry.

Acts 1:8 ; 2:1-2,
- Jesus said, But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me, in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth.

Acts 2:1-2,
-When the day of penetcost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind and it filled the whole house where they were sitting,

This is when God gave them the power of the HS to guide them onto all truth.
Before this they had the ability to understand that Jesus would ressurect from the dead.
They did not have full understanding. But they could believe what Jesus told them.

I dont need to understand everything God tells me to believe it.
The apostles are the same.

 

[ChristisGod]

You either are ignorant of the Scriptures or you have an agenda like Dan.
Do you know why Dan is teaching men that are unbelievers and have hardened hearts will be in heaven?
It is because he cannot allow someone who has believed once that later loses faith to be lost!
Because he believes in Once Saved Always Saved. Therefore he makes ridiculous arguments that unbelievers with hardness of heart will be saved in heaven.

He has failed to give one passage that teaches we can have hardness of hearts i.e. unbelief and be saved while in unbelief.
Dan tries to redefine faith by claiming unbelief is accepted if based on not believing those who told the apostles Jesus has risen from the dead.
It is an irrelevant argument.
Heres why.
If God told you He will raise from the dead
Then others come and tell you He raised from the dead.
And you do not believe what others told you.
THAT IS CALLED UNBELIEF.
The apostles did not believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
That is called unbelief and hardness of heart by Jesus Himself.
You and Dan can argue all you want that they did not believe someone else's testamony.
It doesn't change the fact that Jesus rebuked them for not believing!
You understand you dont rebuke someone for when they are in the right?
You only rebuke someone for WHEN THEY ARE COMMITING SIN!

Jesus did not excuse their unbelief because they did not belief others.
Jesus rebuked the apostles because they did not believe HIM when He told them He was going to be ressurected.
Jesus also rebuked them for not believing the eyewitnesses that told them He had risen!

Dan has a very poor argument.
It doesn't make their unbelief and hardness of heart any better.
God rebuked them.
Dan excuses them.
I'll take Gods position that they were wrong for not believing.
Not mans position that their sin was not their fault.
It was their fault otherwise they would not have been REBUKED BY GOD!

Do you two understand what rebuking means?

I will address the loves of bread issue since you use it as a proof text against me.

Do you not know what Jesus said about those disciples that wondered how they would be feed after already seeing with their own eyes a miracle of food multiplication?

Mark 6:52,
- For they had not understood about the loaves, becausetheir hearts were hardened.

Just like the apostles in Mark 16:14,
Hardness of heart = unbelief

Mark 2:5,
- And when Jesus looked around at them with  ANGER being grieved by the hardness of their hearts, He said to the man, Stretch out your hand.
And he stretched out his hand and it was restored as whole as the other.

Why was Jesus angry with them if they could not understand?
Your position does not make sense.
God cannot be angry with someone who He has not given them the ability to believe!
Unless you and Dan believe in calvinism.
Dan's position is the calvinist position that God gets angry with those who dont believe that He caused not to believe!
That is called ignorance of understanding Scripture and ignorance of the nature of God.

Mark 7:16-21,
- And they reasoned among themselves saying, it is because we have no bread.
But Jesus being aware of it, said to them,
Why? do you reason because you have no bread?
Do you not yet perceive nor understand ?
Is your heart still hardened?
having eyes you do not see?
And having ears, do you not hear?
and do you not remember?
When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand how many baskets full of fragments did you take up?
They said to Him, twelve.
Also when I broke the seven for the thousand how many large basket full of fragments did you take up?
And they said seven.
So Jesus said to them, How is it you do not understand?

According to Dan and you they could not understand.
Then Why is Jesus asking them why they dont understand?
He is God! You know He knows why.
Jesus would not ask them why they dont understand,
IF GOD HAD NOT GIVEN THEM THE ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND LIKE YOU AND DAN CLAIM.

This is why Dan's argument does not make a lick of sense!

Jesus is giving a question: "why dont you understand, you already saw that I can multiple food"
Jesus point is they should already have faith in Him, yet they still doubt.

As I have said it does not require full understanding of what God tells you, to believe, have faith in what He tells you.
Jesus was angry because those miracles were to open their eyes, so that they might believe in Him.
Jesus had no reason to be angry if God directly closed their eyes to not understand.

God never directly hardened someone's heart before they had the ability to believe.
That would be evil.
God hardens hearts when He gives the the evidence to believe in Him, then you chose not to believe, then because of rejecting the evidence your heart becomes hard.
Therefore unbelief hardens the heart.
We harden our own hearts when we go against what God has revealed to us.
In this case miracles of multiplying food.

Hebrews 3:8-12,
-Today if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion...
Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works(miracles just like these folks) for forty years.
Therefore I was  angry with that generation, and said they always go astray(meaning they were once faithful, understanding) in their heart,
Beware brethren lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

These verses help us understand that their hardness of hearts was unbelief.
Jesus performed miracles that they might believe in Him,
Proof Dan is wrong that God hid all understanding from the apostles is the fact that many did believe in Jesus when He taught and performed miracles.
This proves their understanding was possible but because of unbelief their hearts were hardened.

John 8:30,
- As Jesus spoke these words many believed in Him.

Conclusion: Jesus' miracles was so they might believe.
There is no reason they could not understand Jesus when He directly told them,
Matthew 17:9,
- Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is risen from the dead.
Mark 16:14,
- Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table and Jesus rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

John 20:30-31,
- And truly Jesus did many signs in in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God and that believing you may have life in His name.

Why are the miracles recorded?
So that we may have faith
This is why Jesus performed miracles in front of the disciples that they may have faith.
Faith in the ressurection was not hindered from the apostles.
Faith in Jesus was not Biden from the multitude that Jesus fed with a miracle.
They chose to harden their hearts because they did not believe.

I have no agenda as I'm just posting the facts from Jesus and the disciples who did not understand most things until after His Resurrection and Pentecost when they were filled with the Spirit and born again as Jesus promised in John 14-16 that the Holy Spirit would bring all Jesus teachings to their remembrance, not before. The man without the spirit cannot understand the things of God for they are foolishness to them. See 1 Corinthians 2 and Romans 8.

 

[Johann]

You either are ignorant of the Scriptures or you have an agenda like Dan.
Do you know why Dan is teaching men that are unbelievers and have hardened hearts will be in heaven?
It is because he cannot allow someone who has believed once that later loses faith to be lost!
Because he believes in Once Saved Always Saved. Therefore he makes ridiculous arguments that unbelievers with hardness of heart will be saved in heaven.

He has failed to give one passage that teaches we can have hardness of hearts i.e. unbelief and be saved while in unbelief.
Dan tries to redefine faith by claiming unbelief is accepted if based on not believing those who told the apostles Jesus has risen from the dead.
It is an irrelevant argument.
Heres why.
If God told you He will raise from the dead
Then others come and tell you He raised from the dead.
And you do not believe what others told you.
THAT IS CALLED UNBELIEF.
The apostles did not believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
That is called unbelief and hardness of heart by Jesus Himself.
You and Dan can argue all you want that they did not believe someone else's testamony.
It doesn't change the fact that Jesus rebuked them for not believing!
You understand you dont rebuke someone for when they are in the right?
You only rebuke someone for WHEN THEY ARE COMMITING SIN!

Jesus did not excuse their unbelief because they did not belief others.
Jesus rebuked the apostles because they did not believe HIM when He told them He was going to be ressurected.
Jesus also rebuked them for not believing the eyewitnesses that told them He had risen!

Dan has a very poor argument.
It doesn't make their unbelief and hardness of heart any better.
God rebuked them.
Dan excuses them.
I'll take Gods position that they were wrong for not believing.
Not mans position that their sin was not their fault.
It was their fault otherwise they would not have been REBUKED BY GOD!

Do you two understand what rebuking means?

I will address the loves of bread issue since you use it as a proof text against me.

Do you not know what Jesus said about those disciples that wondered how they would be feed after already seeing with their own eyes a miracle of food multiplication?

Mark 6:52,
- For they had not understood about the loaves, becausetheir hearts were hardened.

Just like the apostles in Mark 16:14,
Hardness of heart = unbelief

Mark 2:5,
- And when Jesus looked around at them with  ANGER being grieved by the hardness of their hearts, He said to the man, Stretch out your hand.
And he stretched out his hand and it was restored as whole as the other.

Why was Jesus angry with them if they could not understand?
Your position does not make sense.
God cannot be angry with someone who He has not given them the ability to believe!
Unless you and Dan believe in calvinism.
Dan's position is the calvinist position that God gets angry with those who dont believe that He caused not to believe!
That is called ignorance of understanding Scripture and ignorance of the nature of God.

Mark 7:16-21,
- And they reasoned among themselves saying, it is because we have no bread.
But Jesus being aware of it, said to them,
Why? do you reason because you have no bread?
Do you not yet perceive nor understand ?
Is your heart still hardened?
having eyes you do not see?
And having ears, do you not hear?
and do you not remember?
When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand how many baskets full of fragments did you take up?
They said to Him, twelve.
Also when I broke the seven for the thousand how many large basket full of fragments did you take up?
And they said seven.
So Jesus said to them, How is it you do not understand?

According to Dan and you they could not understand.
Then Why is Jesus asking them why they dont understand?
He is God! You know He knows why.
Jesus would not ask them why they dont understand,
IF GOD HAD NOT GIVEN THEM THE ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND LIKE YOU AND DAN CLAIM.

This is why Dan's argument does not make a lick of sense!

Jesus is giving a question: "why dont you understand, you already saw that I can multiple food"
Jesus point is they should already have faith in Him, yet they still doubt.

As I have said it does not require full understanding of what God tells you, to believe, have faith in what He tells you.
Jesus was angry because those miracles were to open their eyes, so that they might believe in Him.
Jesus had no reason to be angry if God directly closed their eyes to not understand.

God never directly hardened someone's heart before they had the ability to believe.
That would be evil.
God hardens hearts when He gives the the evidence to believe in Him, then you chose not to believe, then because of rejecting the evidence your heart becomes hard.
Therefore unbelief hardens the heart.
We harden our own hearts when we go against what God has revealed to us.
In this case miracles of multiplying food.

Hebrews 3:8-12,
-Today if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion...
Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works(miracles just like these folks) for forty years.
Therefore I was  angry with that generation, and said they always go astray(meaning they were once faithful, understanding) in their heart,
Beware brethren lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

These verses help us understand that their hardness of hearts was unbelief.
Jesus performed miracles that they might believe in Him,
Proof Dan is wrong that God hid all understanding from the apostles is the fact that many did believe in Jesus when He taught and performed miracles.
This proves their understanding was possible but because of unbelief their hearts were hardened.

John 8:30,
- As Jesus spoke these words many believed in Him.

Conclusion: Jesus' miracles was so they might believe.
There is no reason they could not understand Jesus when He directly told them,
Matthew 17:9,
- Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is risen from the dead.
Mark 16:14,
- Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table and Jesus rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

John 20:30-31,
- And truly Jesus did many signs in in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God and that believing you may have life in His name.

Why are the miracles recorded?
So that we may have faith
This is why Jesus performed miracles in front of the disciples that they may have faith.
Faith in the ressurection was not hindered from the apostles.
Faith in Jesus was not Biden from the multitude that Jesus fed with a miracle.
They chose to harden their hearts because they did not believe.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Did the disciples/apostles knew the full impact of Jesus's ministry?
Was it not AFTER the resurrection of Messiah that they came to a full epignosis via the Ruach Ha-Kodesh?

Just asking, and be polite to @mailmandan and others who might be in disagreement with you--don't attack the person--respond to what he posted.

 

[Johann]

Was God the cause of their unbelief in the ressurection or was it by their own free will that they did not believe?
Mark 16:14,
- Later Jesus appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

If they are without understanding because God hid understanding from them as Dan is claiming.
That would be reformed theology aka calvinism.

Is that what took place?
Or were their hearts hardened because they did not like the message Jesus was telling them?
Did Peter understand Jesus when He said, He would be killed and raise from the dead?
Or was Peter incapable of understanding the words coming out of Jesus' mouth?

If Peter was incapable of understanding that Jesus was going to be killed and raise from the dead.
Then why did Jesus waist His breath telling him what would Dorn take place?
Jesus is God, Jesus would have known that Peter could not understand what He was trying to explain to His apostles.
So, why then explain something that you already know cannot be understood?
Jesus knew they could understand Him, just that they did not at this time fully understand why.
That is why later Jesus opens their understanding to the Scriptures. Luke 24:45.
Even though this is stated here in Luke. Their understanding was not opened fully until the received Holy Spirit baptism in Acts 2.
Read on in Luke 24:49,
- behold I send the promise of My Father upon you: but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.

It is at Jerusalem thd apostles will have all remembrance of the old testament and all that Jesus taught them during His earthly ministry.

Acts 1:8 ; 2:1-2,
- Jesus said, But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me, in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth.

Acts 2:1-2,
-When the day of penetcost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind and it filled the whole house where they were sitting,

This is when God gave them the power of the HS to guide them onto all truth.
Before this they had the ability to understand that Jesus would ressurect from the dead.
They did not have full understanding. But they could believe what Jesus told them.

I dont need to understand everything God tells me to believe it.
The apostles are the same.

@Christophany answered your question--#277

 

[Titus]

I have no agenda as I'm just posting the facts from Jesus and the disciples who did not understand most things until after His Resurrection and Pentecost when they were filled with the Spirit and born again as Jesus promised in John 14-16 that the Holy Spirit would bring all Jesus teachings to their remembrance, not before. The man without the spirit cannot understand the things of God for they are foolishness to them. See 1 Corinthians 2 and Romans 8.

Wrong, Acts 2 was HS baptism for the apostles.
The apostles had already been given the HS but not miraculous all knowing understanding like in Acts 2.

Matthew 10:1,
- And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them  power over unclean spirits, to cast them out and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of diseases.

Also HS baptism in Acts 2 did not save the apostles.
They had to be saved in order to receive HS baptism.

They had their sins washed away in John's baptism,
Mark 1:4-5,
- John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

No lost person would be given Holy Spirit baptism.
The apostles were saved BELIEVERS before they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

They had already repented of their unbelief when Jesus appeared to them after the ressurection.
John 20:25,
- The other disciples therefore said to him, We have seen the Lord....
V. 29,
- Jesus said to him, Thomas because you have seen Me, you have believed , blessed are those who have not seen yet have believed.