A Test Of Reading Comprehension and Honesty

[Titus]

The man without the spirit cannot understand the things of God for they are foolishness to them. See 1 Corinthians 2 and Romans 8.

Well if you believe John Calvin as he taught one cannot believe without God performing a miracle on him.
That is unbiblical.
Those without any literal indwelling of the Holy Spirit can understand the word of God/gospel.
In times past God performed miracles so that men might understand and believe.
Not so today!
Then how does a lost man come to know God.
How does the unbeliever become a believer?
This is how the Holy Spirit today operates that you may believe.
1Corinthians 2:13,
- These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but by which the Holy Spirit  teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You understand how we today can say I believe in Jesus through the working of the Holy Spirit?
Every time you open your Bible and read God is speaking to you!
Every time the apostles wrote down the word of God, the Holy Spirit revealed that to you.

When you read the Sacred Scriptures it is the Holy Spirit revealing the revelation of God to you.
That is how the lost are guided by the Holy Spirit today.
And how a believer can only say Jesus is Christ through the  teaching of the Holy Spirit.

Where did that knowledge come from?
From the word which the Holy Spirit revealed is how we have faith today.

Romans 10:17,
-So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

The power is in the word today friend. That is how we speak the truth through the Holy Spirit.
Psalm 119:104,
- Through Your precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way.

1John 5:13,
- These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

Holy Spirit works through the word
1Thessalonians 2:13,
- For this reason we also thank God without ceasing because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men(because it is the HS word) but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

 

[ChristisGod]

Well if you believe John Calvin as he taught one cannot believe without God performing a miracle on him.
That is unbiblical.
Those without any literal indwelling of the Holy Spirit can understand the word of God/gospel.
In times past God performed miracles so that men might understand and believe.
Not so today!
Then how does a lost man come to know God.
How does the unbeliever become a believer?
This is how the Holy Spirit today operates that you may believe.
1Corinthians 2:13,
- These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but by which the Holy Spirit  teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You understand how we today can say I believe in Jesus through the working of the Holy Spirit?
Every time you open your Bible and read God is speaking to you!
Every time the apostles wrote down the word of God, the Holy Spirit revealed that to you.

When you read the Sacred Scriptures it is the Holy Spirit revealing the revelation of God to you.
That is how the lost are guided by the Holy Spirit today.
And how a believer can only say Jesus is Christ through the  teaching of the Holy Spirit.

Where did that knowledge come from?
From the word which the Holy Spirit revealed is how we have faith today.

Romans 10:17,
-So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

The power is in the word today friend. That is how we speak the truth through the Holy Spirit.
Psalm 119:104,
- Through Your precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way.

1John 5:13,
- These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

Holy Spirit works through the word
1Thessalonians 2:13,
- For this reason we also thank God without ceasing because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men(because it is the HS word) but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

The disciples were not born again until Pentecost remember ?

 

[Titus]

The disciples were not born again until Pentecost remember ?

Well that's new to me!!!
The Jews that believed John's preaching were saved under the old law.
Unless you want to deny that John's baptism did not forgive their sins,
John 3:5,
- Jesus answered,
Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of water(John's and later Jesus' baptism) and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 4:1,
- Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, although Jesus Himself did not baptize but His disciples.

Mark 1:4-5,
- John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Then all the land of Judea and those of Jerusalem went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan river, confessing their sins.

The 3000 Jews on Pentecost that obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ that Peter preached were not baptized by John.
The apostles were already baptized by John.
Therefore they were already born again.

I take from your answer you do not believe faith only salvation, when Peter believed on Jesus,
Matthew 16:16,
- Then Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ the Son of the living God.

You are a two gospels dispensationalist correct?

 

[ChristisGod]

Well that's new to me!!!
The Jews that believed John's preaching were saved under the old law.
Unless you want to deny that John's baptism did not forgive their sins,
John 3:5,
- Jesus answered,
Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of water(John's and later Jesus' baptism) and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 4:1,
- Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, although Jesus Himself did not baptize but His disciples.

Mark 1:4-5,
- John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Then all the land of Judea and those of Jerusalem went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan river, confessing their sins.

The 3000 Jews on Pentecost that obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ that Peter preached were not baptized by John.
The apostles were already baptized by John.
Therefore they were already born again.

I take from your answer you do not believe faith only salvation, when Peter believed on Jesus,
Matthew 16:16,
- Then Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ the Son of the living God.

You are a two gospels dispensationalist correct?

No one was born again until Pentecost . Read Acts 1:1-8 with Jesus instructions to wait until the Spirit would come to dwell in them as they would be baptized by the promise of the Holy Spirit as He said to them in John 14-16.

Acts 1
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water,but in a few days you will be baptized with[b]the Holy Spirit.”
6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

 

[Titus]

No one was born again until Pentecost

So Noah, Abraham, Adam, David etc. All died without being born again?
Did you know no one can be born again after physical death?
One only has the opportunity to be born again in this life not the next.
You either die lost or you die(physically) born again.

All there is after this life is the judgement.
Hebrews 9:27,
- And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement.

Moses had to be born again before he died physically
All old testament faithful died born again.

Therefore it was also true of the thief on the cross.
He was born again before Jesus died. Before the preaching on penetcost.

You must deny John's baptism forgave the Jews of their sins to believe what you teach.
You should loose this belief for it goes against Mark 1:4-5.
Its unbiblical.

 

[ChristisGod]

So Noah, Abraham, Adam, David etc. All died without being born again?
Did you know no one can be born again after physical death?
One only has the opportunity to be born again in this life not the next.
You either die lost or you die(physically) born again.

All there is after this life is the judgement.
Hebrews 9:27,
- And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement.

Moses had to be born again before he died physically
All old testament faithful died born again.

Therefore it was also true of the thief on the cross.
He was born again before Jesus died. Before the preaching on penetcost.

You must deny John's baptism forgave the Jews of their sins to believe what you teach.
You should loose this belief for it goes against Mark 1:4-5.
Its unbiblical.

The promise of the spirit in the new birth , new heart was fulfilled in Acts 2. Try reading and believing Peters inspired message and the OT being fulfilled in the NT in Acts 2. Jesus made the same promise to His disciples in John 14-16 and in Acts 1:4-8.

 

[Titus]

The promise of the spirit in the new birth , new heart was fulfilled in Acts 2. Try reading and believing Peters inspired message and the OT being fulfilled in the NT in Acts 2. Jesus made the same promise to His disciples in John 14-16 and in Acts 1:4-8.

I do believe Peter.

No one was born again until Pentecost

Then, by your doctrine everyone before pentecost died lost.
You can only be born again in this life, not the next.

How was Moses saved?
He was not born again when he died according to you.

No one under the old law of Moses that died under the old covenant was accountable to Jesus' new will and testament.

 

[ChristisGod]

I do believe Peter.

Then, by your doctrine everyone before pentecost died lost.
You can only be born again in this life, not the next.

How was Moses saved?
He was not born again when he died according to you.

No one under the old law of Moses that died under the old covenant was accountable to Jesus' new will and testament.

No they were saved by faith and not born again that is a NT promise.

 

[Titus]

No they were saved by faith and not born again that is a NT promise.

Friend, everyone that died in faithfullness to God had to be born again.
There is no salvation for those who are not born again.
Do you understand what born again means?

 

[ChristisGod]

Friend, everyone that died in faithfullness to God had to be born again.
There is no salvation for those who are not born again.
Do you understand what born again means?

Yes and no one was born again until Pentecost. Believe Jesus teaching below.

John 7:38–39 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[Titus]

No they were saved by faith and not born again that is a NT promise.

John's baptism was in the old testament, during the law of Moses.
Listen to Jesus tell Nicodemus who is living under the old law that he must be born again.
Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be born again before the law of Christ was in force.

John 3
- There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the jews.
This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.

- Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old?
Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?

Jesus answered,
Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus is teaching these Jews under the old law must be born again to be saved.
While Jesus is living He is teaching the second birth.

Stay in the same chapter.
John 3:22-23,
- After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea and there He remained with them and baptized.
Now John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized.

Jesus taught Nicodemus must be born again.
How?
Jesus said unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Therefore John's baptism that is for the remission of sins, is how the Jews at this time were born again.
This is before penetcost.

Conclusion: All the saved in the Old testament and in the New, had to be born again before they physically died or they would die lost.
Born again was not only in the new will and testament of Jesus Christ.
Born again was also for the Jews under the old law.

 

[ChristisGod]

John's baptism was in the old testament, during the law of Moses.
Listen to Jesus tell Nicodemus who is living under the old law that he must be born again.
Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be born again before the law of Christ was in force.

John 3
- There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the jews.
This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.

- Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old?
Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?

Jesus answered,
Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus is teaching these Jews under the old law must be born again to be saved.
While Jesus is living He is teaching the second birth.

Stay in the same chapter.
John 3:22-23,
- After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea and there He remained with them and baptized.
Now John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized.

Jesus taught Nicodemus must be born again.
How?
Jesus said unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Therefore John's baptism that is for the remission of sins, is how the Jews at this time were born again.
This is before penetcost.

Conclusion: All the saved in the Old testament and in the New, had to be born again before they physically died or they would die lost.
Born again was not only in the new will and testament of Jesus Christ.
Born again was also for the Jews under the old law.

The Spirit indwelling believers is a New Testament doctrine . John 14:26. It was a mystery revealed in New Testament through Christ indwelling believers . 1 Corinthians 2:7-16. The mystery hidden which is Christ in you the hope of glory . Colossians 1:26. This discussion has come to a decisive conclusion . It’s New Testament not Old Testament.

John 14
I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Future as Jesus said above He will be in you after He leaves them.

John 14
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:26
26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

So far it’s all future .

John 16:7
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you

Still future

John 16:
2 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

Still future

Jesus prayer for them is still future that He would be in them and they would be one as the Father and Son are one and in each other .

John 17
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given meto be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[e]known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

1 Corinthians 2:6-16
We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”[b]—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]
But we have the mind of Christ.

Colossians 1:25-27
I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

 

[Titus]

Yes and no one was born again until Pentecost. Believe Jesus teaching below.

John 7:38–39 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

You have been taught err.
Holy Spirit baptism never saved anyone.
HS baptism was to guide the apostles into all truth.
The apostles were born again before they received HS baptism.
The Holy Spirit is not your Savior.
Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world.
Only His blood has the power to forgive sins.
Cont.
Goodnight

 

[ChristisGod]

You have been taught err.
Holy Spirit baptism never saved anyone.
HS baptism was to guide the apostles into all truth.
The apostles were born again before they received HS baptism.
The Holy Spirit is not your Savior.
Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world.
Only His blood has the power to forgive sins.
Cont.
Goodnight

agreed you are in grave error.

 

[Titus]

agreed you are in grave error.

You need to explain how all those old testament faithful were saved without being born again?
You have given no explanation to how one is saved without being born again.

Yes and no one was born again until Pentecost

Jesus told Nicodemus under the old law He must be born again.
John's baptism was under the old law. Its purpose forgave the Jews of their sins.

The Spirit indwelling believers is a New Testament doctrine . John 14:26. It was a mystery revealed in New Testament through Christ indwelling believers . 1 Corinthians 2:7-16. The mystery hidden which is Christ in you the hope of glory . Colossians 1:26.

The mystery that was hidden was not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
It was Jesus the Messiah and how he would save the world through His gospel
The mystery that was hidden is literally the gospel of Jesus Christ,
Ephesians 3:1-5,
- how by revelation He made known to me the mystery as I have briefly  written already,
By which when you read ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ,
Which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets.

You are wrong that the Spirit indwelling believers is a new testament doctrine.
You are teaching HS indwelling only occurs in the new testament.
This is ignorance of the Scriptures.

1Samuel 10:6,
- Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man.

11:6,
- The the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard this news and his anger was greatly aroused.

16:14,
- Then the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and a distressing spirit from the Lord troubled him.

 

[Titus]

then you won't accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you

Please explain how unbelievers with hardness of heart will be saved?

And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. (Luke 18:31-34) Jesus did not rebuke them here

Dan, you taught me the apostles had no ability to understand because God hid knowledge of what He was teaching from them,

They may have been slow to believe at first, but eventually they came to believe after Jesus appeared to them and opened their understanding in Luke 24:44-47 -

You believe they could not understand because God did not allow them to understand.

Then please explain Matthew 14:10,
- When Jesus had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them,
Hear and understand


What does Luke 24: mean by Jesus/God opening their understanding?

Dan does not know the context of these verses,
Luke 24: 44-49
- And He opened their understanding that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

This has nothing to do with them not understanding what Jesus had told them about His death, burial and ressurection.
Jesus told the multitude to understand.
The apostles likewise had the ability to understand what Jesus told them in,
Matthew 17:9,
- Tell the vision to know one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead

Luke 24:44-49 is not about opening their understanding to what Jesus told them about His ressurection.
They could already understand what He told them.

God is opening their eyes in a miraculous way.
Jesus is telling them they are going to receive the baptismal measure of the Holy Spirit.

They had not recieved this yet.
The purpose of HS baptism was to give them miraculous knowledge of everything taught in the Scriptures and to remember miraculously every single teaching Jesus taught during His 3 year earthly ministry.

They already had the ability to understand Jesus would ressurect from the dead.
So then why did they not understand?

Luke 18:33-34,
- But they understood none of these things, this saying was hidden from them and they did not know the things which were spoken.

The reason why anyone doesn't understand Gods message, His word is unbelief which results in a hardened heart.

Folks cannot understand God if they have hardened their hearts against His will.

The apostles did not like like the message their Messiah told them.

They wanted the Jews to reign over all other nations like Rome on earth.
They thought their Messiah would set up a physical earthly kingdom that would overthrow all other earthly kingdoms.

Instead Jesus told them He was going to be murdered by the gentiles(Rome) and later ressurect from the dead.

They did not like what they were hearing, therefore they hardened their hearts in unbelief.
This is why they could not fully understand Gods message to them.

It is also true that Jesus' message was foreign to some of them.
Yet it should not have been because it was prophecied in the Old testament by their prophets of the Lord.

The apostles did somewhat understand that Jesus was going to be killed and raise from the dead.
But they did not fully understand why this had to take place.

All that ignorance and unbelief was gone when they physically saw with their eyes Jesus ressurected from the dead.

Luke 24 was told to them AFTER they had already returned to believing and their hearts were softened, no longer hardness of heart.

They did not need their eyes opened to Jesus' ressurection in Luke 24.
They were already believers in the ressurection at that time!
Dan has taken Luke 24:45 Out of context.

As proof Dan is misrepresenting Luke 24:45 go back to Luke 24:33,34
This proves they already HAD THEIR UNDERSTANDING THAT JESUS RESSURECTED FROM THE DEAD,
Verse 33,34
- So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together,
saying, The Lord is risen indeed and has appeared to Simon.

Dan's argument is eiseigesis.

Matthew 22:29,
- Jesus answered and said to them,
You do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God

 

[mailmandan]

Please explain how unbelievers with hardness of heart will be saved?

The remaining 11 disciples were not unbelievers in regards to Jesus being the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mathew 16:16; John 6:68-69; 20:31) and they were saved. So their unbelief and hardness of heart was simply towards not initially believing those who had seen Jesus after He had risen. (Mark 16:14) After Jesus appeared to them after His resurrection, He opened their understanding to comprehend the Scriptures. (Luke 24:44-47) When Peter professed his faith in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the living God in Matthew 16:16, Jesus afterward told Peter, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Dan, you taught me the apostles had no ability to understand because God hid knowledge of what He was teaching from them,

Apparently you don't believe Luke 18:34 - And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

You believe they could not understand because God did not allow them to understand.

So "they understood none of these things" and this saying was "hid from them" and "neither knew they the things which were spoken" along with "opened their understanding to comprehend the Scriptures" means they were fully capable of comprehending the Scriptures exclusively on their own, apart from God? Is that what you are saying?

Then please explain Matthew 14:10,
- When Jesus had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them,
Hear and understand

Apart from God we don't understand all by ourselves. There is more to comprehending the Scriptures than merely paper, ink and human intelligence.

What does Luke 24: mean by Jesus/God opening their understanding?
Dan does not know the context of these verses,
Luke 24: 44-49
- And He opened their understanding that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

This goes beyond mere human understanding and involves a supernatural opening of their understanding to comprehend the Scriptures. The natural man does not understand. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

This has nothing to do with them not understanding what Jesus had told them about His death, burial and ressurection.
Jesus told the multitude to understand.

Whether in regards to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus or what was shared with the multitude, apart from God, man will not understand the things of God all by his fleshly self.

The apostles likewise had the ability to understand what Jesus told them in,
Matthew 17:9,
- Tell the vision to know one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead

Matthew 17:9 still does not negate Luke 18:31-34 and Luke 24:44-47.

Luke 24:44-49 is not about opening their understanding to what Jesus told them about His ressurection.
They could already understand what He told them.

Luke 24:44-49 (especially verse 46) clearly refutes your argument. You need to stop kicking against the goads!

God is opening their eyes in a miraculous way.
Jesus is telling them they are going to receive the baptismal measure of the Holy Spirit.

God opened their eyes (understanding) alright, to comprehend the Scriptures.

They had not recieved this yet.
The purpose of HS baptism was to give them miraculous knowledge of everything taught in the Scriptures and to remember miraculously every single teaching Jesus taught during His 3 year earthly ministry.

Jesus opened their understanding the comprehend the Scriptures here and the Holy Spirit continues to perform this same miraculous task for believers.

They already had the ability to understand Jesus would ressurect from the dead.
So then why did they not understand?

Not according to Luke 18:34.

Luke 18:33-34,
- But they understood none of these things, this saying was hidden from them and they did not know the things which were spoken.

These words are clear, yet you still cannot comprehend. You need a miraculous awakening from the Holy Spirit.

The reason why anyone doesn't understand Gods message, His word is unbelief which results in a hardened heart.

They could not believe what was hidden from them. But after having their understanding opened, they understood clearly.

Folks cannot understand God if they have hardened their hearts against His will.

Refusing to believe the gospel stems from a hardened heart that is against God's will. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) The natural man cannot understand and is spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

The apostles did not like like the message their Messiah told them.
They wanted the Jews to reign over all other nations like Rome on earth.
They thought their Messiah would set up a physical earthly kingdom that would overthrow all other earthly kingdoms.

The apostles were expecting a Lion and not a Lamb.

Instead Jesus told them He was going to be murdered by the gentiles (Rome) and later ressurect from the dead.

They did not like what they were hearing, therefore they hardened their hearts in unbelief.
This is why they could not fully understand Gods message to them.

That's true in part, yet they still also needed their understanding opened.

It is also true that Jesus' message was foreign to some of them.
Yet it should not have been because it was prophecied in the Old testament by their prophets of the Lord.

There are things from the OT that are a mystery until they are revealed later.

The apostles did somewhat understand that Jesus was going to be killed and raise from the dead.
But they did not fully understand why this had to take place.

They needed to have their understanding opened.

All that ignorance and unbelief was gone when they physically saw with their eyes Jesus ressurected from the dead.

Of course. How can they not believe after seeing Jesus in person for themselves.

Luke 24 was told to them AFTER they had already returned to believing and their hearts were softened, no longer hardness of heart.

What do you mean by "returned" to believing? Apparently, they did not full understand and believe about His resurrection until they had their understanding opened when Jesus came to them after His resurrection.

They did not need their eyes opened to Jesus' ressurection in Luke 24.
They were already believers in the ressurection at that time!
Dan has taken Luke 24:45 Out of context.
As proof Dan is misrepresenting Luke 24:45 go back to Luke 24:33,34
This proves they already HAD THEIR UNDERSTANDING THAT JESUS RESSURECTED FROM THE DEAD,
Verse 33,34
- So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together,
saying, The Lord is risen indeed and has appeared to Simon.

I took nothing out of context. Now be sure to read (starting in Luke 24:36) all the way to verse 45.

Dan's argument is eiseigesis.

Your biased argument is eisegesis. Read it all and without the bias this time.

Matthew 22:29,
- Jesus answered and said to them,
You do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God
I have already covered this multiple time, buy you just have ears to h

Hmm.. Your confusion is driving you mad.

 

[Titus]

These words are clear, yet you still cannot comprehend. You need a miraculous awakening from the Holy Spirit

No miracles today Dan, 1Corinthians 13:1-8;9;10
Prove you have received a miracle from God like the 1st, century christians did.
You cannot.
Paul not only taught but confirmed that his teaching was from the direct indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by miracles
1Corinthians 2:4,
- and my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.
Paul and the rest of the apostles proved they had received a miracle when they taught.
All you can do is claim it with your mouth.
You cannot prove it.
Why is it you claim to be directly guided by the Holy Spirit when you teach against His revelation?

Matthew 17:9 still does not negate Luke 18:31-34 and Luke 24:44-47

Matthew 17:9 does not contradict Lk. 18 ; Lk. 24.
What it does is show your interpretation of those Scriptures is err.

So "they understood none of these things" and this saying was "hid from them" and "neither knew they the things which were spoken" along with "opened their understanding to comprehend the Scriptures" means they were fully capable of comprehending the Scriptures exclusively on their own, apart from God? Is that what you are saying?

You have been taught to see the Scriptures from the calvinist point of view.

You think God directly hid understanding from them.
Why? You think God did not want them to believe as calvinism teaches.
Sorry, but you are not making sense.

God absolutely wanted the true followers of jesus to understand His teaching.

Dan, Jesus tells them what is going to take place.
If Jesus does not want them to understand,...
Also Jesus being God WOULD KNOW THAT THEY COULD NOT UNDERSTAND IF HE WAS THE ONE WHO BLINDED THEIR UNDERSTANDING!!!

Do you not see how ridiculous it is for Jesus to teach them while at the same time not allowing them to understand what He is saying to them?

That is the nonsense of calvanist doctrine.
God tells them to understand, then at the same time makes them not understand.
Tomfoolery

Listen to Jesus teach them what is going to take place,
Luke 18:31-34,

- So Jesus took the twelve aside and said to them, Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished.
For we will be delivered to the Gentiles and be mocked and insulted and spit upon.
They will scourge Him and kill Him and the third day He will rise again
Now according to you, Jesus did not want them to understand,
So I guess Jesus likes to waste His breath on pointless teaching.

Next verse,
34 - But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them and they did not know the things which were spoken.

So according to your explanation Jesus told them want would happen but kept them from understanding.
Well, heres more proof that calvinist "dual will of God" is illogical error.

Just keep reading the chapter Dan.
Folks did understand and believe on Jesus!
This disproves your doctrine that they were miraculously hindered from understanding Gods teaching.

Luke 18:40-42,
- So Jesus stood still and commanded him to be brought to Him.
and when he had come near, He asked him saying,
What do you want Me to do for you? he said, Lord that I may receive my sight.
Then Jesus said to Him, Receive your sight; your  faith has made you well
His Faith in Jesus Dan.
The apostles had unbelief in what Jesus had just told them He would die and ressurect.

If God was blinding those who heard Him, so they could not understand,
why did the blind man have faith?
He understood.
Jesus knew his preaching could be understood!

Mark 7:14
- When Jesus had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them,
Hear Me, everyone and understand

Now the apostles did not understand the parable.
Is it because God did not want them to understand?
If so, then why does Jesus explain it to them until they do understand?

Mark 7:18,
- So He said to them,
Are you thus without understanding also?
Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him.....

When Jesus did teach and did not want men to understand He spoke in parables
And He did not explain them to the ones that He wanted the truth hidden from them.
When Jesus taught the apostles about His death and ressurection He told them with plain straightforward speech.

Matthew 13:10-11,
- and the disciples came and said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables?
Jesus answered and said to them,
Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

The apostles were chosen to understand Jesus' teaching.
Jesus Himself said so.
Dan says they were not.
Dan is disagreeing with God.

After Jesus appeared to them after His resurrection, He opened their understanding to comprehend the Scriptures. (Luke 24:44-47)

Right.
This is what occured. Now you are using Luke 24:44-47 in context.
Before you used Luke 24:44-47 as a proof text that the apostles could not understand what Jesus told them about Him being ressurected from the dead, because He had not opened their understanding.

That is misrepresentation of Luke 24:44-47.
They did not need a miracle from God to open their eyes to understand what Jesus told them in Luke 18:31-33 and Matthew 17:9,
- Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.

Their unbelief and hardness of heart WAS NOT GODS WILL!
Gods will was that they believed in what Jesus taught them.

Calvinism teaches God hardens hearts because He desires to harden mens hearts.
That would make God evil.

Calvinism teaches God cherry picks who He will give understanding to and who He will blind from the truth before the individual can choose to believe or disbelieve.
This makes God evil.

How God hardened the apostles and all mens hearts through unbelief.

Answer: By His Word.

Pharoah's heart was hardened by the word of God.
God did not choose to force Pharoh to into disobeying Him.
God desired for Pharoh to obey Him and be saved.
If not God is evil.

How?
God is our spiritual Father.

Same way our earthly father hardens our hearts.

A father had two sons.
He gave both sons the same rules to follow/obey.
One son allows obeyed.
But one day the other son chose to disobey his dad's rules.
At first it bothered His conscience.
But as he continued to disobey his dad.
It bothered his conscience less.
Eventually his disobeying his dad's rules no longer bothered his conscience.
In this sense His dad's rules hardened the boys heart.
Likewise Gods commandments can do both.
If one believes and obeys Gods commandments they will open the heart.
If one chooses not to believe and disobeys Gods word, the word hardens his heart.

This is how God hardened Pharoah's heart.
Moses spoke the word of God to Pharoah.
"Let My people go"
Every time Pharoah rebelled against his Father, the word of his Father hardened his heart.

Likewise when Jesus told His apostles He would be killed and ressurect from the dead,
They like Pharaoh did not like Gods message.
So they chose not to believe,
Therefore their unbelief in rejecting Gods word hardened their hearts to the point that they could not understand WHY Jesus had to go threw this.
They did understand what Jesus told them, just not why.

Later their hearts got so hard from unbelief that they did not even believe that He ressurected from the dead. That is why Jesus rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, Mark 16:14.

If Dan is right and God deliberately blinded their understanding,
Then Jesus was wrong for rebuking them WHEN IT WAS JESUS HIMSELF THAT CAUSED THEM NOT TO BELIEVE OR UNDERSTAND.
That's the nonsensical interpretation of calvinism.

The remaining 11 disciples were not unbelievers in regards to Jesus being the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mathew 16:16; John 6:68-69; 20:31) and they were saved. So their unbelief and hardness of heart was simply towards not initially believing those who had seen Jesus after He had risen

Irrelevant,
No one can be saved with hardness of heart and unbelief.

You have failed to give one passage that teaches a person with hardness of heart and unbelief will be in heaven. I'm still waiting.
Instead all you do is claim they were still saved,
That's just your opinion.
Prove unbelievers in the ressurection will be saved!

So what that they did not believe the eyewitnesses to His His ressurection.
Were they or were not unbelievers in the ressurection ?

Give scripture that one can be saved with a hardened heart
And not believe in the resurrection.

Dan, you know why they did not believe those who told them Jesus had raised from the dead?
Because they did not believe in the ressurection.

Your explanations do not make sense.
You are contradicting your definition of saving faith.
1Corinthians 15:1-4 must believe in the death, burial AND RESSURECTION.
The apostles were unbelievers by choice not by Gods sovereign will.

 

[Titus]

I've erred. I need to apologize to Danthemailman.

I took nothing out of context. Now be sure to read (starting in Luke 24:36) all the way to verse 45

Dan is responding to what I said here,

They did not need their eyes opened to Jesus' ressurection in Luke 24.
They were already believers in the ressurection at that time!
Dan has taken Luke 24:45 Out of context.

As proof Dan is misrepresenting Luke 24:45 go back to Luke 24:33,34
This proves they already HAD THEIR UNDERSTANDING THAT JESUS RESSURECTED FROM THE DEAD,
Verse 33,34
- So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together,
saying, The Lord is risen indeed and has appeared to Simon

I am guilty of being wrong.
They were not yet believers in verses 33-34,
So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together, saying,
The Lord is risen indeed and has appeared to Simon.

The apostles are still in unbelief as verse 41 teaches,
V.41 - But while they still did not believe(the apostles) for joy and marveled, He said to them, Have you any food here

I apologize Dan, I dont believe you took verse 45 out of context.
They were still in unbelief until verse 45,
- And Jesus opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

I have misrepresented verse 45 not Dan, so sorry Dan, please forgive me!

This does not make Dan correct about his belief that God directly forced the apostles by super natural means to harden their hearts so they could not understand.

Verse 45 Jesus opens their hearts to understand the Scriptures.
This is part of what helps them to believe.
Verse 39 Jesus has appeared before them.
Seeing Jesus with their own eyes helped them believe again
Also verse 40, Jesus asked for food.
Verse 44 Jesus begins to teach them.

I admit that the passages here are somewhat difficult because Jesus himself said they believed because of seeing Him alive after His death.
John 20:20;28-29,
- When Jesus had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.

- And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and My God, Jesus said to him,
Thomas because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

The Bible is in perfect harmony. Therefore I dont challenge scripture against scripture.
Luke's account must also be just as true as all the gospel accounts.

I think it's very important that Jesus is teaching them in Luke 24 verses 44,46,47,48,49,
This proves they have not yet been given miraculously knowledge from the direct operation of the Holy Spirit.
Baptismal measure of the Holy Spirit comes later in Acts 2.
Once the apostles were Holy Spirit baptized they needed no teaching.
They had full miraculous knowledge of Jesus' good news.

So, verse 45 definitely means Jesus opened their understanding to the Scriptures.
That would be Old testament.
Because at this time Jesus' earthly ministry had not been written for the Jews to read.
It was only oral teaching not written.
In verse 46 Jesus says, Thus it is written. That means what is written in the old testament about the Prophecy of the coming of the Messiah and His death, burial and ressurection.

46 - Then He said to them,
- Thus it is written and thus it was nessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day.

Again I dont believe they could not understand Jesus when He preached to them, He would rise from the dead.
I believe they did not understand fully why He had to be killed and ressurected because of unbelief.
That unbelief coming from their own freewill not Gods foreordained decree.

Therefore they did not need a miracle worked on their hearts so that they could believe.
All they needed was to see Jesus. They did have their understanding opened to the Old testament Scriptures concerning Jesus and His death, burial and ressurection so that they understood fully, why this took place.

There is no scripture anywhere in the new testament that teaches God directly caused them to not believe in the ressurection. That was their choice not to believe. Which resulted in hardness of heart.


Look at this passage closely.
Once studied, show me where God directly was involved in causing them to lose faith.

Luke 18:34,
- But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them and they did not know the things which were spoken.

A calvinist would insert his doctrine into the text.

"But God made them understand none of these things"

"This saying God had hidden from them"

"And they did not know the things which were spoken because God foreordained it"

People presume it is God controlling them as if they have no freewill to believe or disbelieve, understand or reject the message.

Without the presuppositional bias, read it,

But  they understood none of these things. Could they have understood if they had not chosen to not believe? Where does the passage say anything about God involved in causing them to not understand?

This saying was hidden from them. Is that not figurative speech for they hardened their hearts against Jesus' message? The Bible says they did.

They did not know the things which were spoken. Could this mean that they did not fully understand Jesus' teaching because they did not understand the old testament Scriptures? We know they were ignorant about understanding the prophecy of Jesus' death, and ressurection because of Luke 24:45.
Where does it say in this passage God directly made them not understand?

God does not control us like puppets on strings as calvinistic determinism views the Scriptures.

If God is controlling their belief and unbelief and directly hardening their hearts without their own freewill to believe or disbelieve.
Why would He do this to them?
Why would God desire to harden someone's heart so they would not be a believer?
The wicked scribes, Pharisees etc. hated Jesus because they chose to be wicked.
That is why God spoke to them in parables.
But the apostles were men that desired to believe and obey God. Like all men they were not perfect.
It makes God evil to keep them from believing against their own will.

Their unbelief had to be from their own freewill. Just as the wicked Pharisees unbelief was from their own freewill.

 

[Johann]

Dan, you taught me the apostles had no ability to understand because God hid knowledge of what He was teaching from them,

"the meaning of this statement was hidden from them" This is a PERIPHRASTIC PERFECT PASSIVE. Many of Jesus' teachings did not make sense to the Apostles until after the resurrection (cf. John 12:16) and the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost (cf. John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13-15). They could not yet see the fullness of the gospel message because it was so different from what they had been taught and were expecting.

1) "And they understood none of these things:" (kai autoi ouden touton sunekan) "And they (the twelve) did not understand any of these things," could not grasp or comprehend what He said to them, how this could happen to the Messiah, not understanding, Isa_53:1-12.

2) "And this saying was hid from them," (kai en hrema touto kekrummenon ap' auton) "And this utterance was hidden from them," curtained from their mind, their understanding, even after His resurrection, Mar_9:32; Luk_24:25-27; Luk_24:32.

3) "Neither knew they the things which were spoken." (kai ouk eginoskon la legomena) "And they did not know the things that were said," by Him, until He explained them to them after His resurrection, Luk_24:44-45; Joh_12:16.



And they understood none of these things,.... "Not one of them", as the Syriac and Persic versions render it; every article of his sufferings and death were unintelligible by them; they knew not how to understand him in any one point: or how to reconcile these things to the notions they had entertained of the temporal grandeur, and glory, of the Messiah, and his kingdom; and which shows their great ignorance of the prophecies of the Old Testament concerning these things.


And this saying, or "thing"; for it answers to the Hebrew word דבר, which signifies any affair, or matter, as well as a word, or saying: and so here, the whole of this affair
was hid from them; unless it should have a peculiar regard to that part of it, which expresses his resurrection from the dead; see Mar_9:10 or the delivery of him to the Gentiles, Luk_9:44

neither knew they the things which were spoken; the meaning of them. The Ethiopic version leaves out this, and puts the former clause, by way of question, "and he said unto them, and is this saying hid from you?"

You said in another post the Holy Spirit is not our Savior--? Can you briefly, in a condensed format, give me the ministry of the Ruach HaKodesh?
Thanks