A Test Of Reading Comprehension and Honesty

[Titus]

Seeking salvation by works is not following God. (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

More misrepresentation.
I do not seek a works based salvation.
The gospel is by faith.
It is a grace through faith based. Ephesians 2:8-9.
But to remove all works out of salvation is a false gospel.
The works in salvation is the works of God not the works of man.

You have bought into Campbellism doctrine and only care about accommodating your perverted water gospel as taught by your church.

This is intentional misrepresentation from Dan. Now he contradicts what he already said,
Here,

You wrote the book on intentional misrepresentation. Now I was not implying that you teach water "in of itself" is mystical and it has saving properties in it's chemistry

Yet, you always accuse "my' gospel as being water, water, water. Your church calls me a water dog. Which is intentional derogatory name-calling to misrepresent what I believe.
If you dont teach water itself is what I believe saves me, THEN STOP TELLING EVERYONE I AM A WATER SALVATIONIST!!!!!

You are not being honest Dan. You have accused me multiple times of being a water salvationist.
A label I vehemently loathe and have DENYED every time you have accused me.
And yet you persist.

 

[Titus]

Campbellism doctrine and only care about accommodating your perverted water gospel as taught by your church.

This also explains why you have so much faith in water and works.

You claim your not misrepresenting my beliefs on here, then say I put my faith in water and not Jesus.
I have no faith in water as you already have been told, yet you continue to spread false rumors about me,

 

[Titus]

I never said that repentance did not involve Godly sorrow towards sin or that no fruit will follow repentance

I never accused you of this. I said in your gospel for salvation, that there is no repentance of sins in repentance unto salvation.
You teach repentance precedes faith.
And that repentance is only changing the mind from unbelief to belief.
That is the repentance you claim has nothing to do with repantance of sin.

But it does and you must ignore this fact to hold to the error you are making on repentance.

Back years ago you taught me on another forum that the reason repentance must come before faith is that repentance is a work.

I was kicked off that forum otherwise I would quote you, but I cannot get access to it.

Now you have changed your beliefs.
You now teach repentance is only changing ones mind from unbelief to belief in salvation.

This contradicts itself.
Unbelief is a sin.
John 8:24,
- Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins.

Can one repent by changing the mind from unbelief to belief and not repent of the sin of unbelief?

This proves Dan's doctrine is from men for it does not make logical sense and is self-contradictory.

One must repent of the sin of unbelief.

You cannot get repentance of sins out of repentance as Dan is trying to do.
Repentance involves repenting of sins in order to obtain forgiveness of sins,

Having said this, believing by itself is not repentance.

Unbelief to belief is a change of ones thinking a change of mind.
But this is not the repantance that God requires in salvation.

Biblical repentance has godly sorrow preceding repentance.
It is a fact that there are people who have changed their minds about belief in Jesus but have no godly sorrow.
We have examples
Certain Jews
The demons

John 12:42,
-Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Jesus but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue,

Unbelief to belief is not repentance.

But when one goes from unbelief to belief and has godly sorrow for the sins they commit against God.
This new faith in Jesus will result in those who desire to obey God in a reformation of life.

Then true Biblical repentance takes place.
First one believes
Then out of godly sorrow for their wickedness they repent(change their mind) that then results in a change or reformation of living, they turn away from practicing willfull sin.

This repentance includes their repenting of their sin of unbelief.
But this repentance of the sin of unbelief comes after one has believed.
Just as the Jews believed but did not repent, likewise saved believers have godly sorrow for not believing which results in a change of living.

Conclusion: true Biblical belief that saves results in true Biblical repentance,
Therefore you cannot truly have faith without repenting of your sin of unbelief.

Otherwise the Jews faith in John 12:42 was true Biblical saving faith.
Both Dan and Titus believe this is not Biblical saving faith.

2Corinthians 7:10,
-For godly sorrow  produces repentance leading to salvation not to be regretted but the sorrow of the world produces death.

So, Dan claims that the Jews did not have true saving faith in Acts 2:37.
That they had only mental assent.
If Dan is right then I must agree, mental assent is not saving faith.

Next Dan claims the Jews only had true saving faith in the next verse when they repented,
As Dan is defining repentance as the same as believing.
Dan also excludes repentance from sins in this belief they had in Acts 2:38.

But this cannot be correct for no repentance of sin is not saving anyone!
They must have godly sorrow for murdering their Messiah.
Only this would be true Biblical repentance.
Also without this repentant heart their faith is not saving faith!!! John 12:42-43.
Not only that in Acts 2:38 Peter is telling them to repent of all their sins as is taught in Jesus' gospel.

This modern day perversion of redefining repentance as only changing the mind from unbelief to belief has the Jews in John 12:42 and the demons in James 2:19 repenting.
This is not Biblical repentance.

This is Biblical repentance.
Acts 17:30,
-Truly these times of ignorance God overlooked but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent.

Acts 3:19,
- repent therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 26:20,
- but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea and then to the gentiles that they should repent(change their mind) and do works(reform take action by turning from a sinful living and turn to God) and do works befitting repentance(obedient living for God by keeping His commandments).

This is Biblical repentance example:
Matthew 21:28-29,
-but what do you think?
a man had two sons and he came to the first and said, Son, go work today in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not. But afterward he regretted it and went.
then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said I go, sir, but he did not go.
Which of the two did the will of the father?

True Biblical repentance is not only changing ones mind.
It really is changing ones will to Gods will.

The son who regretted his sin against his fathers commandments had a change of mind that resulted in a change of his actions. This is true repentance.
Dan is trying to teach that true repentance is only the change of mind, without the reformation or changing of ones life(turning away from sin and living godly righteous lives.)
No way.

 

[mailmandan]

Really? Why does Jesus in His great commission tell His disciples to baptize in His gospel then?
Jesus joins believing and baptism when He teaches His gospel to His disciples.
This was Jesus' last message before leaving earth and returning back to His Father in heaven.

Mark 16:15-16,
- And Jesus said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature,
he that believes and is baptized will be saved but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Instead of isolating half of one verse then building doctrine on it, try reading it all. Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Dan has changed Jesus' gospel to fit a sects theology.
Notice once again Dan excludes commandments that God joined together.

Jesus' gospel is not "whoever is not baptized will be condemned." That's the gospel of your sect. Jesus said whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18)

Acts 2:38 repent  and baptized
Mark 16:16 believe and is baptized will be saved.

As I already previously explained, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. Also, in Mark 16:16, Jesus clarifies the first clause with but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Repentance and baptism is Jesus' gospel
Belief and baptism is Jesus' gospel.

Repentance 'precedes' believing the gospel. Mark 1:15 - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent and believe the gospel. In Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved is (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. So Jesus gospel is not "baptized or condemned." Jesus doesn't even mention baptism in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)

Religions that do not follow the gospel of Christ will omit parts of the gospel.
Dan's churches gospel,
Mark 16:15-16,
- He who believes and is NOT baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Dan, this is not what Jesus' gospel teaches!

Your church "adds works" to the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) What happened to baptism here?

Also, the gospel of Christ is much more than the death, burial and ressurection.

Much more? Really? Did Paul forget to mention that in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

Confession of faith in Jesus is also a prerequisite in His gospel unto salvation.

Faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Confession is an expression of faith which is expressed by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3) and is not a work for salvation.

1Corinthians 15:1-4 says nothing about confessing His name before men.

Here we go again with Matthew 10:32-33 again. In context, this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples continued to speak about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like the Pharisees), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. The disciples were not confessing His name here in order to become saved, but because they were already saved.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said: Also, 1Corinthians 15:1-4 says nothing of repentance.
But 1Corinthians 15:1-4 does teach about belief in the death, burial and ressurection of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not need to spell out repentance because those who believe the gospel have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe the gospel.

Belief is the gospel enacted, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
Baptism is the gospel re-enacted, Romans 6:3-4.
Jesus teaches both are His gospel, Mark 16:15-16.
In baptism is our death with Christ
Our burial with Christ
Our being born again as we are raised with Christ
Romans 6:3-4,
- Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Jesus was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Everything with you is "works salvation" (with a heavy emphasis on water baptism). Works-salvationists typically confuse the picture (water baptism) with the reality. (Spirit baptism) Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures.

Paul teaches we were saved by this form of doctrine in Romans chapter 6,
Romans 6:17,
- But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

This form of doctrine is where we were delivered i.e set free from sin!
Romans 6:17-18,
- and having been set free from  sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Works-salvationists typically ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which "follow" saving faith in Christ are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for BELIEVING the gospel. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

All this is speaking of the water baptism with Christ in the same chapter of Romans 6:3-4;
Romans 6:3-4 baptism with Christ
Romans 6:3-4 born again with Christ, read verses 5-7,
- For He who has died(we die in water burial, Romans 6:4) has been freed from sin.
That form of doctrine Paul is preaching that delivered us has set us free from sin is the death, burial and ressurection that is re-enacted in our baptism.

Water baptism is merely the picture and Spirit baptism is the reality. What takes place in reality is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism. As Greek scholar AT Robertson said: "A symbol is not the reality, but is a picture of the reality." Well said!

To make the gospel only 1Corinthians 15:1-4 is to change Jesus' gospel into belief in death, burial and ressurection only.
Is this rightly dividing the word of God?
Is this being honest with the word?

Believing the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is rightly dividing the word of God and is being honest with the word, yet instead, you prefer to distort and pervert passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your works based false gospel.

Is Dan correct that the gospel of Christ can only be defined as his church allows, i.e. belief only in the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus?
No, because the Bible does not teach this!

The Bible sure does. (Acts 15:7-9; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) Repentance 'precedes' believing the gospel and water baptism 'follows' believing the gospel.

The gospel is more than belief alone.
It is literally Jesus Himself.
This is the gospel.
Not just belief, that is only part.
Not just obedience, that is only part
But what is the gospel? It is Jesus Himself.

You are completely mixed up and need to find a new church.

1Peter 1:25 = John 1:1,
- But the word of the Lord endures forever, Now this WORD which by the GOSPEL was preached to you.

John 1:1,
- In the beginning was the  Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

Jesus is the LIVING Word.

The gospel is Jesus Christ.

The gospel is about Jesus Christ.

It is not only death, burial, ressurection.
It is not only baptism.
It is all these things.

False. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) BELIEVES plus what? Simply BELIEVES. To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel is hid to those who do not believe. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.

 

[mailmandan]

More misrepresentation.
I do not seek a works based salvation.
The gospel is by faith.
It is a grace through faith based. Ephesians 2:8-9.
But to remove all works out of salvation is a false gospel.
The works in salvation is the works of God not the works of man.

Nice contradiction! My representation was spot on.

This is intentional misrepresentation from Dan. Now he contradicts what he already said,

You are not a lawyer and the members of this board are not a jury. You and I are having this conversation.

Here,

Yet, you always accuse "my' gospel as being water, water, water. Your church calls me a water dog. Which is intentional derogatory name-calling to misrepresent what I believe.
If you dont teach water itself is what I believe saves me, THEN STOP TELLING EVERYONE I AM A WATER SALVATIONIST!!!!!

Good grief! Take a deep breath and calm down.

You are not being honest Dan. You have accused me multiple times of being a water salvationist.

I clarified what I meant by water salvationist. You believe that we are not saved until after we are water baptized. I think the jury gets it.

A label I vehemently loathe and have DENYED every time you have accused me.
And yet you persist.

If it makes you that angry, I will not mention the word "Campbellism" and I did clarify that by saying 'water salvationist' I am not implying that you mean we are saved by mystical properties in the water.

 

[mailmandan]

You claim your not misrepresenting my beliefs on here, then say I put my faith in water and not Jesus.
I have no faith in water as you already have been told, yet you continue to spread false rumors about me,

If you believe that water baptism stands between you and receiving eternal life, then you have placed your faith in the act of being water baptized "in addition" to placing your faith in Jesus. Go ahead and admit that you believe we are NOT saved until AFTER we are baptized.

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said: I never accused you of this. I said in your gospel for salvation, that there is no repentance of sins in repentance unto salvation.

What do you think Godly sorrow is over? Our sins and Jesus died to save us from our sins. Acknowledging we are sinners and the wages of sin is death (Romans 3:23) then turning to Christ in faith for salvation (Romans 6:23) does not leave out repentance in regards to our sins. Mere moral self-reformation apart from faith in Christ is not repentance.

You teach repentance precedes faith.

Yes it does. (Acts 20:21)

And that repentance is only changing the mind from unbelief to belief.

When we repent we do change our mind from unbelief to belief, yet we still acknowledge we are sinners in need of a Savior in the process of changing our mind from unbelief to belief. We don't simply place our faith in Christ for salvation with no regard to sin, then keep on living a sinful lifestyle of practicing sin. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. Believers are new creations in Christ and have been changed. (2 Corinthians 5:17) Now repentance of sins does not mean never sin again/sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10)

That is the repentance you claim has nothing to do with repantance of sin.

I explained that our sins are in view when we repent. Bringing forth fruit is consistent with repentance (Matthew 3:8) and we demonstrate our repentance by our deeds. (Acts 26:20)

But it does and you must ignore this fact to hold to the error you are making on repentance.

I'm not making an error on repentance. You make the error of failing to grasp the new direction of the change of mind must ultimately take, namely, trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. You have turned to supplements. Namely, works.

Back years ago you taught me on another forum that the reason repentance must come before faith is that repentance is a work.

I don't recall that at all. Which forum was that?

I was kicked off that forum otherwise I would quote you, but I cannot get access to it.

Some people simply rejoin forums they were kicked off of under a new avatar name and address.

Now you have changed your beliefs.
You now teach repentance is only changing ones mind from unbelief to belief in salvation.

I have not changed my beliefs. What brought us to the point of changing our minds? Godly sorrow. Why are we changing our minds? Because we realize that we are sinners in need of a Savior. When we repent, we do change our mind from unbelief to belief, yet we do not disregard our sins and continue to live a sinful lifestyle of practicing sin. Is that clear enough and good enough for you?

This contradicts itself.
Unbelief is a sin.
John 8:24,
- Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins.

Can one repent by changing the mind from unbelief to belief and not repent of the sin of unbelief?

Good grief. You are looking to indict me at all costs and it's like you don't really hear what I'm saying.

This proves Dan's doctrine is from men for it does not make logical sense and is self-contradictory.

Only to you. I don't hear my brothers and sisters in Christ on this board making that same comment.

One must repent of the sin of unbelief.

If one is not believing in/trusting in/relying in Christ alone for salvation, then they remain in unbelief.

You cannot get repentance of sins out of repentance as Dan is trying to do.

Mere moral self-reformation apart from faith in Christ alone for salvation is not repentance.

Repentance involves repenting of sins in order to obtain forgiveness of sins,

How do you define repenting of sins? Never sin again? Or go from practicing sin to practicing righteousness? The latter would be the fruit of repentance.

Having said this, believing by itself is not repentance.

Unbelief to belief is a change of ones thinking a change of mind.
But this is not the repantance that God requires in salvation.

You seem to think that all belief is the same "except" for the lack of works. Repentance that does not ultimately result in faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is not the repentance that God requires in salvation. Mere moral self-reformation joined with mere mental assent belief is not repentance or saving faith.

Biblical repentance has godly sorrow preceding repentance.
It is a fact that there are people who have changed their minds about belief in Jesus but have no godly sorrow.
We have examples
Certain Jews
The demons

It's godly sorrow that produces repentance leading to salvation. (2 Corinthians 7:10)

John 12:42,
-Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Jesus but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue,

In John 12:42, do we know the real condition of these "believing" rulers' hearts. Was it (mere mental assent belief James 2:19) or (trust and reliance saving belief John 3:16)? We do know that they loved men's praises (vs. 43) more than God's (John 5:44). Some may argue that the unwillingness of the chief rulers to confess Christ in this isolated situation throws doubt on the complete genuineness of their faith and others may argue that they simply have a weak moment in this isolated situation in front of the Pharisees. Does this mean they never confessed Christ at all?

The Apostle Peter at one point failed to confess Jesus before men (John 18:17-27), but after the Holy Spirit was given, he was a different man who boldly confessed Him (Acts 4:8-13). We know that Peter was saved even though he had a weak moment and the same may be true for these chief rulers as well. Does the text specifically say that they were saved or not saved? If the chief rulers truly believed (trusted in Christ for salvation) even though they had a weak moment, then they were saved (John 3:16). If their lack of confession was the result of a lack of genuine belief, then they are not saved. (John 3:18)

Unbelief to belief is not repentance.

Repentance that does not result in faith in Christ alone for salvation is not repentance.

But when one goes from unbelief to belief and has godly sorrow for the sins they commit against God.
This new faith in Jesus will result in those who desire to obey God in a reformation of life.

It was godly sorrow for sins that lead them to repentance in the first place. Don't confuse what faith is with what faith results in.

Then true Biblical repentance takes place.
First one believes
Then out of godly sorrow for their wickedness they repent (change their mind) that then results in a change or reformation of living, they turn away from practicing willfull sin.

Believes what before they repent? Not believes the gospel. The change or reformation of living and turning away from practicing willfull sin is the fruit of repentance.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said: This repentance includes their repenting of their sin of unbelief.
But this repentance of the sin of unbelief comes after one has believed.

Say what? You seem to be confused about different kinds of belief.

Just as the Jews believed but did not repent, likewise saved believers have godly sorrow for not believing which results in a change of living.

They may have believed there is one God and so do the demons (James 2:19) but they did not believe the gospel.

Conclusion: true Biblical belief that saves results in true Biblical repentance,
Therefore you cannot truly have faith without repenting of your sin of unbelief.

You are making this more complicated than it really is and your arguments tend to culminate in salvation by works.

Otherwise the Jews faith in John 12:42 was true Biblical saving faith.
Both Dan and Titus believe this is not Biblical saving faith.

How about that.

2Corinthians 7:10,
-For godly sorrow  produces repentance leading to salvation not to be regretted but the sorrow of the world produces death.

So, Dan claims that the Jews did not have true saving faith in Acts 2:37.
That they had only mental assent.
If Dan is right then I must agree, mental assent is not saving faith.

Some progress here.

Next Dan claims the Jews only had true saving faith in the next verse when they repented,
As Dan is defining repentance as the same as believing.
Dan also excludes repentance from sins in this belief they had in Acts 2:38.

Being aware of their sins including being guilty of crucifying their Messiah was not disregarded when they repented.

But this cannot be correct for no repentance of sin is not saving anyone!
They must have godly sorrow for murdering their Messiah.
Only this would be true Biblical repentance.
Also without this repentant heart their faith is not saving faith!!! John 12:42-43.
Not only that in Acts 2:38 Peter is telling them to repent of all their sins as is taught in Jesus' gospel.

Once again, you are making this out to be more complicated than it really is.

This modern day perversion of redefining repentance as only changing the mind from unbelief to belief has the Jews in John 12:42 and the demons in James 2:19 repenting.
This is not Biblical repentance.

I don't teach a spurious form of repentance. Even after all of my explanations you still don't get it and are desperately looking for an indictment.

This is Biblical repentance.
Acts 17:30,
-Truly these times of ignorance God overlooked but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent.

Acts 3:19,
- repent therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 26:20,
- but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea and then to the gentiles that they should repent (change their mind) and do works (reform take action by turning from a sinful living and turn to God) and do works befitting repentance (obedient living for God by keeping His commandments).

I clearly understand what repentance is along with the fruit of repentance and it's not about seeking salvation by works.

This is Biblical repentance example:
Matthew 21:28-29,
-but what do you think?
a man had two sons and he came to the first and said, Son, go work today in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not. But afterward he regretted it and went.
then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said I go, sir, but he did not go.
Which of the two did the will of the father?

True Biblical repentance is not only changing ones mind.
It really is changing ones will to Gods will.

This means nothing to someone who still has not placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Moral self-reformation apart from authentic faith in Christ is not repentance.

The son who regretted his sin against his fathers commandments had a change of mind that resulted in a change of his actions. This is true repentance.

In this context that's exactly right. Changing our mind and placing our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation also results in a change of actions because we are new creations in Christ and have been born again. Praise God!

Dan is trying to teach that true repentance is only the change of mind, without the reformation or changing of ones life (turning away from sin and living godly righteous lives.)
No way.

I never said that a change of one's life does not follow and I made it clear that the changing of one's life (turning away from practicing sin to practicing righteousness) is the fruit of repentance. What are you still not understanding? You are so focused on the moral self-reformation part that you left out faith in Jesus Christ for salvation as the critical part and it's because you are trusting in works for salvation! Mere mental assent belief joined with moral self-reformation "apart from faith in Christ" is not repentance unto life.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I never accused you of this. I said in your gospel for salvation, that there is no repentance of sins in repentance unto salvation.
You teach repentance precedes faith.
And that repentance is only changing the mind from unbelief to belief.
That is the repentance you claim has nothing to do with repantance of sin.

But it does and you must ignore this fact to hold to the error you are making on repentance.

Back years ago you taught me on another forum that the reason repentance must come before faith is that repentance is a work.

I was kicked off that forum otherwise I would quote you, but I cannot get access to it.

Now you have changed your beliefs.
You now teach repentance is only changing ones mind from unbelief to belief in salvation.

This contradicts itself.
Unbelief is a sin.
John 8:24,
- Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins.

Can one repent by changing the mind from unbelief to belief and not repent of the sin of unbelief?

This proves Dan's doctrine is from men for it does not make logical sense and is self-contradictory.

One must repent of the sin of unbelief.

You cannot get repentance of sins out of repentance as Dan is trying to do.
Repentance involves repenting of sins in order to obtain forgiveness of sins,

Having said this, believing by itself is not repentance.

Unbelief to belief is a change of ones thinking a change of mind.
But this is not the repantance that God requires in salvation.

Biblical repentance has godly sorrow preceding repentance.
It is a fact that there are people who have changed their minds about belief in Jesus but have no godly sorrow.
We have examples
Certain Jews
The demons

John 12:42,
-Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Jesus but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue,

Unbelief to belief is not repentance.

But when one goes from unbelief to belief and has godly sorrow for the sins they commit against God.
This new faith in Jesus will result in those who desire to obey God in a reformation of life.

Then true Biblical repentance takes place.
First one believes
Then out of godly sorrow for their wickedness they repent(change their mind) that then results in a change or reformation of living, they turn away from practicing willfull sin.

This repentance includes their repenting of their sin of unbelief.
But this repentance of the sin of unbelief comes after one has believed.
Just as the Jews believed but did not repent, likewise saved believers have godly sorrow for not believing which results in a change of living.

Conclusion: true Biblical belief that saves results in true Biblical repentance,
Therefore you cannot truly have faith without repenting of your sin of unbelief.

Otherwise the Jews faith in John 12:42 was true Biblical saving faith.
Both Dan and Titus believe this is not Biblical saving faith.

2Corinthians 7:10,
-For godly sorrow  produces repentance leading to salvation not to be regretted but the sorrow of the world produces death.

So, Dan claims that the Jews did not have true saving faith in Acts 2:37.
That they had only mental assent.
If Dan is right then I must agree, mental assent is not saving faith.

Next Dan claims the Jews only had true saving faith in the next verse when they repented,
As Dan is defining repentance as the same as believing.
Dan also excludes repentance from sins in this belief they had in Acts 2:38.

But this cannot be correct for no repentance of sin is not saving anyone!
They must have godly sorrow for murdering their Messiah.
Only this would be true Biblical repentance.
Also without this repentant heart their faith is not saving faith!!! John 12:42-43.
Not only that in Acts 2:38 Peter is telling them to repent of all their sins as is taught in Jesus' gospel.

This modern day perversion of redefining repentance as only changing the mind from unbelief to belief has the Jews in John 12:42 and the demons in James 2:19 repenting.
This is not Biblical repentance.

This is Biblical repentance.
Acts 17:30,
-Truly these times of ignorance God overlooked but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent.

Acts 3:19,
- repent therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 26:20,
- but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea and then to the gentiles that they should repent(change their mind) and do works(reform take action by turning from a sinful living and turn to God) and do works befitting repentance(obedient living for God by keeping His commandments).

This is Biblical repentance example:
Matthew 21:28-29,
-but what do you think?
a man had two sons and he came to the first and said, Son, go work today in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not. But afterward he regretted it and went.
then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said I go, sir, but he did not go.
Which of the two did the will of the father?

True Biblical repentance is not only changing ones mind.
It really is changing ones will to Gods will.

The son who regretted his sin against his fathers commandments had a change of mind that resulted in a change of his actions. This is true repentance.
Dan is trying to teach that true repentance is only the change of mind, without the reformation or changing of ones life(turning away from sin and living godly righteous lives.)
No way.

You are misrepresenting Dan,

You should stop trying to think you know what people teach. I have known Dan for years. And he never said what you claimed he did in another thread.

Repentance and faith is a work of God. It is not our work, it is God working in us

Water baptism is a work of man. He does the work.

So when you claim you are saved by repentance faith and water baptism. You are teaching salvation by faith plus works.

 

[Titus]

In regards to John 6:29, Jesus' uses a play on words here when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?"

So Jesus was not saying that believing is just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works or else it would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction between faith "and" works - "saved through faith, not works

As Dan must deny repentance in salvation is turning away from the practise of willful sin.
Dan also wrongly defines Faith to fit his theology of no works in salvation.

Dan's definition of saving repentance or saving faith is not Biblically sound.

Dan's explanation for faith not being a work in John 6:28-29 is eisegesis.
Jesus is speaking literally to the jews when He teaches faith is a work of God that we work.
Dan wrongly teaches Jesus is not teaching that faith is a work.

This is impossible what Dan believes.
Here is why,

First, Dan is denying that faith is Gods work!
If Dan is correct we get faith without the work of God!
This makes no sense and is completely twisted around from what Jesus actually said, John 6:28-29.

Even Eternally Grateful understands that Faith is a work of God. Thus contradicting Dan's misinterpretation of faith.

Repentance and faith is a work of God. It is not our work, it is God working in us

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!!!

This is sound Bible teaching from Eternally Grateful.
He accepts faith is a work, while Dan denies that faith is a work.

Here is why faith must be a work.
John 6:28-29,
- Then they said to Jesus, What shallwe do, that WE may work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that YOU believe in Him whom He sent.

Dan claims this is not works. Jesus is NOT teaching faith is a work,
Dan claims that the reason Jesus speaks to them this way is because they can only understand things through a works based mindset.

Even if that was true it is irrational.
Why would Jesus try to help someone understand by misleading them to believe that faith is a work when it really is not?
That is what Dan's explanation is. That Jesus doesn't mean what He says by telling them faith is a work. That does not help the Jews to understand, it only puts more error into their thinking!
It causes confusion not understanding!
You don't help someone understand something by misleading them to believe something that it is not.

Dan's explanations make no sense.

But also,
Jesus knows faith is in fact His work.
If God never did the work we could not have faith.
Faith never come from man on his own apart from God.
God had to give us faith by Working.
His works are the EVIDENCE mankind needs in order to believe!

John 17:4,
- I have glorified You on the earth, I have finished My  work which You have given Me to do.

Christ came to this earth to WORK.
The work of His teaching, His earthly ministry and miracles/signs,
The work of suffering through denying Himself His entire life and always putting others first.
The work of torment, suffering, death He had to ENDURE on the cross to save us from our sins.

All the works of God for what?
That we might have faith!

John 20:30-31,
- And truly Jesus did many other signs/miracles in the presence of His disciples which are not written in this book,
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and that BELIEVING you may have life in His name.

Now we know that God had to work His works in order that we might have faith in Him.
This is exactly what Jesus is teaching about faith as a work of God in John 6:28-29.

So when we believe, we believe because God did the work.
Therefore faith is a work of God that gives us faith in Him.
Jesus literally meant what He said,
Gods work of faith is worked by man when we believe in Him.
Dan denies that we work the works of God like faith. He is wrong.

John 6:28-29,
- Then they said to Jesus, What shall WE DO, That WE might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that YOU believe in Him whom He sent.

Dan denies that we work the works of God like faith.
It goes against His false doctrine of no works in salvation.

John 14:12,
- Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do HE WILL DO ALSO and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Dan is denying the teaching of Christ!
He puts his theology over the word of God.

Jesus teaches that we do Gods works!
This first perfectly with Ephesians 2:8-9, that mans works do not save.
Mans works play no part in our salvation.
BUT GODS WORKS DO!
- for by grace you have been saved through faith and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works(mans works) lest anyone should boast.
If we could be saved by our works man would boast is what Paul is teaching in Ephesians 2:8-9.
Paul never taught faith only and no works in salvation! That contradicts James 2:24, faith without works is dead.

Also Paul went on to say in Ephesians 2:8-9; 10,
- For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
One of those good works that God created us for to do from His work- manship, is Faith!

Faith is a work and anyone who teaches it is not is teaching against Jesus' own word.

We cannot work the work of God i.e. faith, without God,
John 3:2,
- This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, Rabbi we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that YOU do unless God is with him.

The works/signs Jesus did confirmed that God was working these miracles, and this work gives men like Nicodemus and us faith in Him. The word is a work of God. The word gives us faith.

2Timothy 3:16-17,
- All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine for reproof for correction for instruction in righteousness,
That the man of God may be complete throughly equipped for every good work.
Without Gods works we could not do the works of God.

Conclusion:
Dan misrepresents me by claiming I am a works based salvationist.
By that he means I believe MANS works merits our salvation.
This is false. I do not believe the Bible ever teaches the works of man play any part in our salvation.
The works of God like faith do play a part in our salvation.
Salvation is the faith that saves is the faith that works the works of God.
Faith is a work.
Salvation by faith and no works is a false gospel not taught by Jesus.

James 2:24,
- You see then that a man is justified by works(Gods works) and not by faith only(no works).

 

[mailmandan]

As Dan must deny repentance in salvation is turning away from the practise of willful sin.
Dan also wrongly defines Faith to fit his theology of no works in salvation.

Dan's definition of saving repentance or saving faith is not Biblically sound.

Dan's explanation for faith not being a work in John 6:28-29 is eisegesis.
Jesus is speaking literally to the jews when He teaches faith is a work of God that we work.
Dan wrongly teaches Jesus is not teaching that faith is a work.

This is impossible what Dan believes.
Here is why,

First, Dan is denying that faith is Gods work!
If Dan is correct we get faith without the work of God!
This makes no sense and is completely twisted around from what Jesus actually said, John 6:28-29.

Even Eternally Grateful understands that Faith is a work of God. Thus contradicting Dan's misinterpretation of faith.

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!!!

This is sound Bible teaching from Eternally Grateful.
He accepts faith is a work, while Dan denies that faith is a work.

Here is why faith must be a work.
John 6:28-29,
- Then they said to Jesus, What shallwe do, that WE may work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that YOU believe in Him whom He sent.

Dan claims this is not works. Jesus is NOT teaching faith is a work,
Dan claims that the reason Jesus speaks to them this way is because they can only understand things through a works based mindset.

Even if that was true it is irrational.
Why would Jesus try to help someone understand by misleading them to believe that faith is a work when it really is not?
That is what Dan's explanation is. That Jesus doesn't mean what He says by telling them faith is a work. That does not help the Jews to understand, it only puts more error into their thinking!
It causes confusion not understanding!
You don't help someone understand something by misleading them to believe something that it is not.

Dan's explanations make no sense.

But also,
Jesus knows faith is in fact His work.
If God never did the work we could not have faith.
Faith never come from man on his own apart from God.
God had to give us faith by Working.
His works are the EVIDENCE mankind needs in order to believe!

John 17:4,
- I have glorified You on the earth, I have finished My  work which You have given Me to do.

Christ came to this earth to WORK.
The work of His teaching, His earthly ministry and miracles/signs,
The work of suffering through denying Himself His entire life and always putting others first.
The work of torment, suffering, death He had to ENDURE on the cross to save us from our sins.

All the works of God for what?
That we might have faith!

John 20:30-31,
- And truly Jesus did many other signs/miracles in the presence of His disciples which are not written in this book,
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and that BELIEVING you may have life in His name.

Now we know that God had to work His works in order that we might have faith in Him.
This is exactly what Jesus is teaching about faith as a work of God in John 6:28-29.

So when we believe, we believe because God did the work.
Therefore faith is a work of God that gives us faith in Him.
Jesus literally meant what He said,
Gods work of faith is worked by man when we believe in Him.
Dan denies that we work the works of God like faith. He is wrong.

John 6:28-29,
- Then they said to Jesus, What shall WE DO, That WE might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that YOU believe in Him whom He sent.

Dan denies that we work the works of God like faith.
It goes against His false doctrine of no works in salvation.

John 14:12,
- Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do HE WILL DO ALSO and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Dan is denying the teaching of Christ!
He puts his theology over the word of God.

Jesus teaches that we do Gods works!
This first perfectly with Ephesians 2:8-9, that mans works do not save.
Mans works play no part in our salvation.
BUT GODS WORKS DO!
- for by grace you have been saved through faith and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works(mans works) lest anyone should boast.
If we could be saved by our works man would boast is what Paul is teaching in Ephesians 2:8-9.
Paul never taught faith only and no works in salvation! That contradicts James 2:24, faith without works is dead.

Also Paul went on to say in Ephesians 2:8-9; 10,
- For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
One of those good works that God created us for to do from His work- manship, is Faith!

Faith is a work and anyone who teaches it is not is teaching against Jesus' own word.

We cannot work the work of God i.e. faith, without God,
John 3:2,
- This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, Rabbi we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that YOU do unless God is with him.

The works/signs Jesus did confirmed that God was working these miracles, and this work gives men like Nicodemus and us faith in Him. The word is a work of God. The word gives us faith.

2Timothy 3:16-17,
- All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine for reproof for correction for instruction in righteousness,
That the man of God may be complete throughly equipped for every good work.
Without Gods works we could not do the works of God.

Conclusion:
Dan misrepresents me by claiming I am a works based salvationist.
By that he means I believe MANS works merits our salvation.
This is false. I do not believe the Bible ever teaches the works of man play any part in our salvation.
The works of God like faith do play a part in our salvation.
Salvation is the faith that saves is the faith that works the works of God.
Faith is a work.
Salvation by faith and no works is a false gospel not taught by Jesus.

James 2:24,
- You see then that a man is justified by works(Gods works) and not by faith only(no works).

Salvation by faith AND works is a false gospel that is NOT taught by Jesus or the apostles. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 15:7-9; 26:18; Romans 4:2-6; 5:1; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; Philippians 3:9 etc,,).

You can try to twist that all you want to teach we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works all you want, but it's a bogus argument! Roman Catholics make the same bogus argument as well because they also teach a "works based" false gospel. We are saved FOR GOOD works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

Your false is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. It's a real shame to see so much zeal wasted on UNBELIEF. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth but not until you humble yourself and are willing to accept the truth. I will continue to pray for you.

 

[Titus]

Salvation by faith AND works is a false gospel that is NOT taught by Jesus or the apostles. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 15:7-9; 26:18; Romans 4:2-6; 5:1; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; Philippians 3:9 etc,,)

This is cherry picking certain verses to manipulate the Scriptures to say what your church statements of faith say. Reading the gospel plan of salvation in its entirety will not lead one to salvation by belief and no repentance of sins Acts 17:30-31, confession of ones faith in Christ Acts 8:37; Romans 10:9-10, baptism for the forgiveness of sins Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16.
Just as repentance of sins, confession with the mouth, baptism into Christ are all works of God, so is Faith in Christ.
John 6:28-29,
- Then they said to Jesus, What shall we do that we may work the works of God,
Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.
John 14:11-12,
- Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves, Our faith is because of Jesus' works.
- Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, HE(MANKIND)WILL DO ALSO.

You can try to twist that all you want to teach we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works all you want, but it's a bogus argument! Roman Catholics make thar same bogus argument as well because they also teach a "works based" false gospel. We are saved FOR GOOD works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

I'm not twisting what Jesus said that faith is a work of God that we will do also.
Anyone who teaches that faith is not a work is twisting the words of Jesus.

We are saved BY Jesus' works. To say otherwise is Biblical ignorance,
John 10:11,
- I am the good Shepard. The good Shepard gives His life for the sheep.
The work Christ did on the cross saves us.
Gods works are in His Grace and mercy.
Because of His mercy and Grace He did the work to save us.

Again I do not teach a mans works merit system of salvation.
That is a bogus accusation against my beliefs.

Your false is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. It's a real shame to see so much zeal wasted on UNBELIEF. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth but not until you humble yourself and are willing to accept the truth. I will continue to pray for you

The Lord already opened my eyes.
You teach Miraculous direct operation of the Holy Spirit must be done so that I may see.

That is the teachings of the reformation theology aka calvinism.

How does God open our eyes to His truth? How do we get born again by water and the Spirit?

How are we born again by the Spirit?

John 3:5,
Jesus answered, Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
By the word that the Spirit revealed i.e. The Holy Bible
John 6:63,
- It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The WORDS that I speak to you are spirit and THEY ARE LIFE.
John 6:68,
But Simon Peter answered Him Lord to whom shall we go, You have the WORDS OF LIFE.

The Spirit opens our eyes our understanding through the word of God!

Hebrews 10:15-16,
- But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their hearts, and in their minds I will WRITE them.

Born again, knowing we have eternal life by what is WRITTEN(Gods word).

1John 5:13,
- These things I have  WRITTEN to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

John 20:30-31,
-And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are WRITTEN THAT YOU MIGHT BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, and that believing you may have  life in His name.

The Holy Spirit works through His written revelation the word of God, so that we might believe, understand and be born again.

 

[mailmandan]

This is cherry picking certain verses to manipulate the Scriptures to say what your church statements of faith say.

It's you who cherry picks certain verses to manipulate the Scriptures in an effort to accommodate your biased church doctrine.

Reading the gospel plan of salvation in its entirety will not lead one to salvation by belief and no repentance of sins Acts 17:30-31, confession of ones faith in Christ Acts 8:37; Romans 10:9-10, baptism for the forgiveness of sins Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16.

Repentance actually "precedes" faith in our Lord Jesus Christ unto salvation. (Acts 20:21) - See posts #353 #355 #368 #369

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) - See post #23 from the link below:

The thief on the cross misconceptions

Ability to be baptized is not an issue. You must be. The scriptures don't provide a caveat. You either are or you're not. And it was impossible for the thief on the cross to have been baptized because Jesus was yet alive. He couldn't be baptized into Christ. He could have possibly been baptized...

www.christianityboard.com

Water baptism "follows" saving belief/faith in Christ. (Acts 10:43-47) - See posts #337 and #364

Just as repentance of sins, confession with the mouth, baptism into Christ are all works of God, so is Faith in Christ.
John 6:28-29,
- Then they said to Jesus, What shall we do that we may work the works of God,
Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.

Jesus said work (singular) and not works (plural). John 6:29 is simply a play on words by Jesus when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" Sound familiar? So Jesus was not saying that believing is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works or else it would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction between faith and works - "saved through faith, not works." I already covered this in post #357.

Now believing is clearly not a work that merits salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Through believing, Christ is the OBJECT of our complete trust in receiving salvation. Good works which "follow" believing in Christ unto salvation are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it and if good works which "follow" believing in Christ unto salvation were the basis or means by which we obtained salvation, then that would add merit on our part in obtaining salvation because then we would be saved through believing based on the merits of Christ's finished work of redemption "plus our works." Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways.

John 14:11-12,
- Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves, Our faith is because of Jesus' works.
- Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, HE (MANKIND) WILL DO ALSO.

Believe Him based on works that Jesus accomished which testified about him and validated His ministry. This isn't about works salvation on our part.

I'm not twisting what Jesus said that faith is a work of God that we will do also.
Anyone who teaches that faith is not a work is twisting the words of Jesus.

Once again, Jesus was not saying that believing is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. You already try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith and turn faith into just "another work" to justify "adding additional works" to salvation through faith. This is what God requires/play on words/work of God that you believe in Him whom God sent. Simple.

We are saved BY Jesus' works. To say otherwise is Biblical ignorance,
John 10:11,
- I am the good Shepard. The good Shepard gives His life for the sheep.
The work Christ did on the cross saves us.
Gods works are in His Grace and mercy.
Because of His mercy and Grace He did the work to save us.

Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

Again I do not teach a mans works merit system of salvation.
That is a bogus accusation against my beliefs.

Your argument of "not saved by works of merit, but saved by good works" is just sugar coated double talk.

The Lord already opened my eyes.

If that were true then you would not continue to pervert the gospel.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said: You teach Miraculous direct operation of the Holy Spirit must be done so that I may see.

Washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. (Titus 3:5)

That is the teachings of the reformation theology aka calvinism.

Here we go again with your favorite label AGAIN and it's becoming a broken record.

How does God open our eyes to His truth?

See 1 Corinthians 2:11-14.

How do we get born again by water and the Spirit?

Through the washing of regeneration which pertains to spiritual washing/purification of the soul that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (Who is the source of living water) through the word of God at the moment of salvation. (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39; Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5)

How are we born again by the Spirit?

When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

John 3:5,
Jesus answered, Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. *Perfect harmony*

In John 3:5, Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that? *The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

By the word that the Spirit revealed i.e. The Holy Bible
John 6:63,
- It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The WORDS that I speak to you are spirit and THEY ARE LIFE.
John 6:68,
But Simon Peter answered Him Lord to whom shall we go, You have the WORDS OF LIFE.

Yes, the words are spirit and they are life. This goes beyond understanding God's word through mere human wisdom as if the Bible is simply a text book.

1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The Spirit opens our eyes our understanding through the word of God!

1 Thessalonians 1:5 - For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.

Hebrews 10:15-16,
- But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their hearts, and in their minds I will WRITE them.

Yes, in their hearts and in their minds, which only the Holy Spirit can do.

Born again, knowing we have eternal life by what is WRITTEN (Gods word).

As our understanding is opened by the Holy Spirit...not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1John 5:13,
- These things I have  WRITTEN to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

John 20:30-31,
-And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are WRITTEN THAT YOU MIGHT BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, and that believing you may have  life in His name. The Holy Spirit works through His written revelation the word of God, so that we might believe, understand and be born again

Again, not merely words from a text book and understood through mere human wisdom, but spiritually taught through the Holy Spirit. (John 14:26; 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:11-14; 1 John 2:27)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

got to love it when the workers say God opened their eyes.

People need to remember, Satan comes as an angel fo light. we have to learn to discern what is from God and what is not

 

[Titus]

Danthemailman completely denies faith is a work or that any works are involved in our salvation below,

You can try to twist that all you want to teach we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works all you want, but it's a bogus argument! Roman Catholics make thar same bogus argument as well because they also teach a "works based" false gospel. We are saved FOR GOOD works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

Dan says hear, "NOT By good works"
Dan teaches no good works save us!
The Bible really teaches we are saved by good works. The good works of God!
Without the work on the cross, we could not be saved.
It is ignorance to teach we can be saved without any works.

Now Dan contradicts himself as confused men do,

Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption).

Dan you are inconsistent and regularly contradict what you teach.
I don't think you even notice the errors you make.

Repentance actually "precedes" faith in our Lord Jesus Christ unto salvation. (Acts 20:21) - See posts #353 #355 #368 #369

Wrong.
Notice the error of Dan's gospel faith ALONE salvation.
Yet here Paul preaches repentance and faith!
Dan tries in vain to put repentance before faith in an effort to make the gospel teach faith only salvation.
But Dan needs to admit but will not, that repentance is still required! It doesn't fix his predicament to move repentance before faith or after faith.
Fact: repentance and faith are both required in Jesus' gospel to be saved.
Faith alone? Can Dan honestly say we are saved by faith alone and everything else is excluded?
He knows repentance must be included with faith. And this contradicts his error of faith only salvation.
Dan makes lots of contradictions in his teaching.

You are ignorant of the context of Acts 20:21,
I'm glad you brought this passage up.
First it proves faith and repentance are not the same thing as you try to equate both as having the same similar meaning.
Paul says first repentance toward God.
Then he says AND faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

The repentance therefore is not unbelief to belief.
It is repentance of their sins.
Then faith toward Jesus.

Paul includes turning from sin as a requirement of God to be saved.
Why does Paul say repentance then Faith?

These folks WERE ALREADY BELIEVERS IN GOD.
They had become disobedient to Gods old law, the Mosaical law.
Paul is telling them they need to repent of their unfaithfulness to God.
By getting their minds and lives right, then they would be ready to believe in Jesus.

This is why Paul says,
- how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you and taught you publicly and from house to house.
This group of Jews and Greeks already heard Paul's teaching.
Paul knew they were believers that were not living faithful to God.
Therefore Paul says about them,
V.21
- Testifying to Jews and to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

They needed to repent of their unfaithfulness so that they would be ready to believe in Jesus.

Repentance of their unfaithfulness is repentance of sins against God.

Faith toward Jesus also includes obedience to Christs new law, Galatians 6:2.
Dan rejects faith being defined this way but this is the way the Bible teaches true saving Biblical faith.
These folks had to learn to be obedient to God before they were ready to be a faithful obedient servant to Christ.
If they had not repented of their unfaithfulness to God under the old law.
They would not be faithfull to Christ under His new law, hence Repentance and then Faith toward Christ.

Dan needs to give just one verse that teaches unbelievers being commanded first to repent toward God before they believe in God
There is no verse in the new testament.
Only unfaithful believers in God that lived under the old law were told to repent toward God first, then believe in Christ. These people lived under the old law then lived into the new law.

No one today lived under the old and then the new.
We all are born under the new covenant.
All today must believe in God then repent of sins.
These folks in Acts 20:21 lived during a time when God was taught but Jesus was later revealed.

We only are taught today that Jesus is in the Godhead.
Thus we must all believe in Jesus and Him who sent Him as well as the Holy Spirit.
After faith we must repent of sins.
This is the example we have in Acts 2:37-38.
That is Jesus' gospel.

Dan continues to prove he has been taught by confused and ignorant men by this belief below,

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) - See post #23 from the link below

According to Dan confessing with our mouths our faith in Christ is the exact same thing as believing in our hearts, no difference!

Heres the passage Dan does not rightly divide,
Romans 10:9-10,
- and if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the MOUTH confession is made unto salvation.

Notice: one is done in the heart
The other is done with the mouth

Dan teaches confession and believing equates, as one in the same.

Jesus does not teach this,
Here the confession must be PUBLIC SAID OUTLOUD WITH THE MOUTH,

Matthew 10:32-33,
- Therefore whoever confesses Me before MEN, him will I also confess before My Father in heaven.
But whoever denies Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father in heaven.
This is Jesus telling that the confession must be before men.
Paul said it is with the mouth.

Does belief in Jesus have to be with the mouth before men?
No.

Since Dan believes that the confession is the same as believing in the heart then he must be ignorant of John 12:42,
- Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Jesus but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue.

John teaches faith and the confession are NOT the same thing as Dan wrongly does.

We have an example of a man being converted, obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ to be saved.
He gives His confession AFTER he has already believed in his heart.

Acts 8:37,
- See here is water what hinders me from being baptized?
Then Philip said if you believe with all your heart you may,
And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

First he believed in his heart.
Then before Philip he confesses with his mouth his faith in Jesus Christ.

This is the confession with the mouth that is made unto salvation.

Here is the gospel of Christ to be saved,
Faith, repentance, confession, baptism.

That is not faith alone salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Danthemailman completely denies faith is a work or that any works are involved in our salvation below,

Dan says hear, "NOT By good works"
Dan teaches no good works save us!
The Bible really teaches we are saved by good works. The good works of God!
Without the work on the cross, we could not be saved.
It is ignorance to teach we can be saved without any works.

Now Dan contradicts himself as confused men do,

Dan you are inconsistent and regularly contradict what you teach.
I don't think you even notice the errors you make.


Wrong.
Notice the error of Dan's gospel faith ALONE salvation.
Yet here Paul preaches repentance and faith!
Dan tries in vain to put repentance before faith in an effort to make the gospel teach faith only salvation.
But Dan needs to admit but will not, that repentance is still required! It doesn't fix his predicament to move repentance before faith or after faith.
Fact: repentance and faith are both required in Jesus' gospel to be saved.
Faith alone? Can Dan honestly say we are saved by faith alone and everything else is excluded?
He knows repentance must be included with faith. And this contradicts his error of faith only salvation.
Dan makes lots of contradictions in his teaching.

You are ignorant of the context of Acts 20:21,
I'm glad you brought this passage up.
First it proves faith and repentance are not the same thing as you try to equate both as having the same similar meaning.
Paul says first repentance toward God.
Then he says AND faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

The repentance therefore is not unbelief to belief.
It is repentance of their sins.
Then faith toward Jesus.

Paul includes turning from sin as a requirement of God to be saved.
Why does Paul say repentance then Faith?

These folks WERE ALREADY BELIEVERS IN GOD.
They had become disobedient to Gods old law, the Mosaical law.
Paul is telling them they need to repent of their unfaithfulness to God.
By getting their minds and lives right, then they would be ready to believe in Jesus.

This is why Paul says,
- how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you and taught you publicly and from house to house.
This group of Jews and Greeks already heard Paul's teaching.
Paul knew they were believers that were not living faithful to God.
Therefore Paul says about them,
V.21
- Testifying to Jews and to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

They needed to repent of their unfaithfulness so that they would be ready to believe in Jesus.

Repentance of their unfaithfulness is repentance of sins against God.

Faith toward Jesus also includes obedience to Christs new law, Galatians 6:2.
Dan rejects faith being defined this way but this is the way the Bible teaches true saving Biblical faith.
These folks had to learn to be obedient to God before they were ready to be a faithful obedient servant to Christ.
If they had not repented of their unfaithfulness to God under the old law.
They would not be faithfull to Christ under His new law, hence Repentance and then Faith toward Christ.

Dan needs to give just one verse that teaches unbelievers being commanded first to repent toward God before they believe in God
There is no verse in the new testament.
Only unfaithful believers in God that lived under the old law were told to repent toward God first, then believe in Christ. These people lived under the old law then lived into the new law.

No one today lived under the old and then the new.
We all are born under the new covenant.
All today must believe in God then repent of sins.
These folks in Acts 20:21 lived during a time when God was taught but Jesus was later revealed.

We only are taught today that Jesus is in the Godhead.
Thus we must all believe in Jesus and Him who sent Him as well as the Holy Spirit.
After faith we must repent of sins.
This is the example we have in Acts 2:37-38.
That is Jesus' gospel.

Dan continues to prove he has been taught by confused and ignorant men by this belief below,

According to Dan confessing with our mouths our faith in Christ is the exact same thing as believing in our hearts, no difference!

Heres the passage Dan does not rightly divide,
Romans 10:9-10,
- and if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the MOUTH confession is made unto salvation.

Notice: one is done in the heart
The other is done with the mouth

Dan teaches confession and believing equates, as one in the same.

Jesus does not teach this,
Here the confession must be PUBLIC SAID OUTLOUD WITH THE MOUTH,

Matthew 10:32-33,
- Therefore whoever confesses Me before MEN, him will I also confess before My Father in heaven.
But whoever denies Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father in heaven.
This is Jesus telling that the confession must be before men.
Paul said it is with the mouth.

Does belief in Jesus have to be with the mouth before men?
No.

Since Dan believes that the confession is the same as believing in the heart then he must be ignorant of John 12:42,
- Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Jesus but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue.

John teaches faith and the confession are NOT the same thing as Dan wrongly does.

We have an example of a man being converted, obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ to be saved.
He gives His confession AFTER he has already believed in his heart.

Acts 8:37,
- See here is water what hinders me from being baptized?
Then Philip said if you believe with all your heart you may,
And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

First he believed in his heart.
Then before Philip he confesses with his mouth his faith in Jesus Christ.

This is the confession with the mouth that is made unto salvation.

Here is the gospel of Christ to be saved,
Faith, repentance, confession, baptism.

That is not faith alone salvation.

Typical modern day pharisee.

its all about me me me and what I do. And not about God and what he did..

 

[Titus]

Typical modern day pharisee.

its all about me me me and what I do. And not about God and what he did..

False. I not the one denying that I need the works of God to save me.
You are.
Faith, repentance, confession and baptism are all works of God.
Ephesians 2:8-9 no works of man save.

You can misrepresent me till Jesus returns.
It will never make what you say about me true.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

False. I not the one denying that I need the works of God to save me.
You are.
Faith, repentance, confession and baptism are all works of God.
Ephesians 2:8-9 no works of man save.

You can misrepresent me till Jesus returns.
It will never make what you say about me true.

Water baptism is not a work of God my friend

Spirit baptism is a work of God.

repentance and faith is also the work of God yes. It’s not your work. But when you add your work to the work of God. You make it a false gospel. You make it about you. And not about God. You’re boasting in your baptism.