A Test Of Reading Comprehension and Honesty

[Titus]

Water baptism is not a work of God my friend

I have asked you repeatedly to contact multiple Greek scholars and ask them what baptism is Colossians 2:12.
There is a consensus that it is water baptism where God works His power.
You would rather believe your church doctrine over the best Greek scholars in the world.

Spirit baptism is a work of God

So is water.
If water baptism was not a work of God as you wrongly teach, then God commands us to do works of man, Acts 10:47-48.
Works of man is mans will!
Mans will goes against Gods will.
We are to only conform to Gods will.
This water baptism being a work of man as you teach contradicts Gods will, Ephesians 2:8-9.
Paul says not by works that we have done...lest any man should boast.
There are no works of man taught in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You are contradicting Scripture like Ephesians 2:8-9.
In Ephesians 2:10 Paul teaches we are to do Gods good works for we are His workmanship.
- for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

repentance and faith is also the work of God yes

Amen. But you are very confused telling me that water baptism is a work of man when Jesus taught and commands it in His gospel, Mark 16:15-16.
Eternally Grateful, you need to learn, God does not mix His works with mans works in His gospel.
This is ignorance of the scriptures. You are not making sense here.

It’s not your work. But when you add your work to the work of God.

This is your misunderstanding and false accusation that I teach mans works are involved in salvation.
You are confused.
Ephesians 2:8-9 will not allow the works of man, which would be mans will not Gods will.
We work the works of God, John 6:28-29.
I'll prove this,
Faith is a work of God as you rightly teach.
Now God gives us a commandment that we must obey!
He commands us to believe in Jesus.
This proves obedience is a work of God not a work of man.
A work of man is not authorized by God.
Obeying the commandment to believe is a work of God because it is Gods will that we believe and obey His commandments.
1John 3:23-24,
- And this is Gods commandment: that  we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment.

To teach as Danthemailman and Eternally Grateful that no obedience to Gods commandments is in the gospel Rome saved is to deny that God commands we have faith in Him.
Thus faith is a work and obedience is required as a direct command to be saved in Jesus' gospel.
The works are Gods and our obedience to His works saves through Grace not merit.

But when you add your work to the work of God. You make it a false gospel.

False accusation. I do not teach mans works or meritorious works salvation.
It's all Jesus.
To say man plays no part in His salvation like you are trying to do is calvinism aka unconditional election.
Grace is Gods part in salvation. Faith is our part in salvation. God has given us the free will to chose to believe and obey His will or to stay unbelievers.
WE MAKE THE CHOICE TO HAVE FAITH GOD DOES NOT FORCE FAITH IN TO US MIRACULOUSLY APART FROM THE GOSPEL.
That is how we play a part in our salvation. This has nothing to do with merit.
Acts 2:40,
- and with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying Save yourselves from this perverse generation.

You make it about you. And not about God. You’re boasting in your baptism.

No, I don't merit my salvation apart from Gods grace.
God saved me.
My water baptism by itself does nothing.
God works His power in baptism to save, Colossians 2:12.
There are many who get baptized. Their baptism was ineffective. All it did was get them wet.

I could say the same about your faith onlyism.
You are not boasting in God, you are boasting in your faith only.
Your faith saved you.

Our faith does save us but not apart from God and His grace.
One could boast that their faith alone saved them but no one would because they know faith without Gods grace is worthless.
Same with repentance, same with confession, same with baptism.
None of these things save on their own.
But they are all essential to ones salvation in Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said: Danthemailman completely denies faith is a work or that any works are involved in our salvation below,

You completely deny that salvation is by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) By placing our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation we did not work for our salvation.

Dan says hear, "NOT By good works"
Dan teaches no good works save us!

We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) You teach salvation by works.

The Bible really teaches we are saved by good works. The good works of God!
Without the work on the cross, we could not be saved.
It is ignorance to teach we can be saved without any works.

Christ's finished work of redemption is the means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we receive salvation. I am not denying that without the work on the cross, we could not be saved. Yet still, we are not saved by works (Ephesians 2:9) not by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) not according to our works. (2 Timothy 1:9) Period.

Now Dan contradicts himself as confused men do,

That would be YOU.

Dan you are inconsistent and regularly contradict what you teach.
I don't think you even notice the errors you make.

It only appears that way to you because you don't believe the gospel and remain spiritually discerned.

Wrong.
Notice the error of Dan's gospel faith ALONE salvation.
Yet here Paul preaches repentance and faith!

You are wrong and it's the error of your "works based" false gospel that I notice. The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE. Paul preaches repentance "precedes" faith (Acts 20:21) and you preach repentance "follows" faith because that's what you have been taught by your church. You are simply "parroting off" what your predecessors before you have taught. This article below explains your confusion.

Faith and Repentance

To be saved, does a person first believe or repent? What is biblical repentance? What does the Bible mean to repent?

www.cofcdilemma.org

Dan tries in vain to put repentance before faith in an effort to make the gospel teach faith only salvation.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - The time is accomplished, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

YOU HAVE IT BACKWARDS.

But Dan needs to admit but will not, that repentance is still required! It doesn't fix his predicament to move repentance before faith or after faith.

I never said that repentance was not required. We must first repent (change our mind) before we can believe the gospel and become saved. It's godly sorrow along with acknowledging that we are sinners in need of a Savior that brings up to this change of mind.

Fact: repentance and faith are both required in Jesus' gospel to be saved.

In the context of Luke 13:3, Jesus challenged the people's notion that they were morally superior to those who suffered in such catastrophes. He called all to repent or perish. For some people though, prior to coming to the end result of repentance in receiving salvation (faith in Christ), they must change their minds about other specific things in order to get there. Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about his previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God (1 Thessalonians 1:9). On the other hand, this change of mind, focuses on the new direction that change about God must ultimately take, namely, trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Faith alone?

Yes, we are saved through faith (rightly understood) alone. The moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation we are saved. That's the alone part. We are not saved by works which "follow" faith so it's still faith alone.

Can Dan honestly say we are saved by faith alone and everything else is excluded?

We are saved by faith in Christ alone "apart from works." (Romans 4:5-6) God imputes righteousness apart from works.

He knows repentance must be included with faith. And this contradicts his error of faith only salvation.

No contradiction at all. Where salvation is in view, repentance actually "precedes" saving faith in Christ and is not a totally separate act from faith. It is actually the same coin with two sides. Repentance is on one side (what you change your mind about) and faith in Christ is on the positive side, (the new direction of this change of mind). Repentance and faith are two sides of the same experience of receiving Christ. This has nothing to do with "faith only" (per James) salvation which only claims to be genuine, yet demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead. (James 2:14) That is not genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

Dan makes lots of contradictions in his teaching.

No, Titus just does not understand because he does not believe the gospel and remains spiritually discerned.

You are ignorant of the context of Acts 20:21,
I'm glad you brought this passage up.
First it proves faith and repentance are not the same thing as you try to equate both as having the same similar meaning.
Paul says first repentance toward God.
Then he says AND faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

You are so confused and remain ignorant in regards to repentance and faith in salvation. The context does not change the order. I never said that repentance and faith are the exact same thing, yet they are two sides to the same coin. Try listening. Repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ does not negate everything I have explained to you.

The repentance therefore is not unbelief to belief.
It is repentance of their sins.
Then faith toward Jesus.

Going from unbelief to belief is the end result. When unbelievers become convicted that they are sinners in need of a Savior (Romans 3:23; 6:23) they ultimately change their mind and place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. That involves changing their mind about their sins. How can you be this confused?

Paul includes turning from sin as a requirement of God to be saved.
Why does Paul say repentance then Faith?

Repentance does not mean completely stop sinning and I know you don't teach sinless perfection. When we repent we turn from practicing sin to practicing righteousness. (1 John 3:9,10) Paul says repentance then faith because repentance precedes faith. Your best efforts to stop sinning will not merit salvation. In that regard, you turn repentance into a work for salvation.

These folks WERE ALREADY BELIEVERS IN GOD.
They had become disobedient to Gods old law, the Mosaical law.
Paul is telling them they need to repent of their unfaithfulness to God.
By getting their minds and lives right, then they would be ready to believe in Jesus.

It's one thing to believe in the existence of God and another thing to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation. We get our lives right as a result of becoming born again.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said: This is why Paul says,
- how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you and taught you publicly and from house to house.
This group of Jews and Greeks already heard Paul's teaching.
Paul knew they were believers that were not living faithful to God.
Therefore Paul says about them,
V.21
- Testifying to Jews and to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

They needed to repent of their unfaithfulness so that they would be ready to believe in Jesus.

Repentance of their unfaithfulness is repentance of sins against God.

Faith toward Jesus also includes obedience to Christs new law, Galatians 6:2.
Dan rejects faith being defined this way but this is the way the Bible teaches true saving Biblical faith.
These folks had to learn to be obedient to God before they were ready to be a faithful obedient servant to Christ.
If they had not repented of their unfaithfulness to God under the old law.
They would not be faithfull to Christ under His new law, hence Repentance and then Faith toward Christ.

You make this out to be much more complicated than it really is. You say that faith in Jesus INCLUDES obedience (which is works) to Christ's new law. You re-define faith to INCLUDE WORKS, just as all works-salvationists do, which explains a lot of your confusion. Roman Catholics make the same error. Check out this statement below from a Roman Catholic that I was once in a discussion with:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

Roman Catholics basically teach that we are saved by faith "infused" with works and I hear people who attend the church of Christ say that we are saved by faith "conjoined" with works. Both groups re-define faith to "include" works and end up trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. This remains your achilles tendon.

Dan needs to give just one verse that teaches unbelievers being commanded first to repent toward God before they believe in God
There is no verse in the new testament.
Only unfaithful believers in God that lived under the old law were told to repent toward God first, then believe in Christ. These people lived under the old law then lived into the new law.

I never said these were atheists who changed their minds and believed in Christ for salvation. We would need to first believe in the existence of God before we would even consider changing our mind and choosing to believe in Christ for salvation.

No one today lived under the old and then the new.
We all are born under the new covenant.
All today must believe in God then repent of sins.
These folks in Acts 20:21 lived during a time when God was taught but Jesus was later revealed.

Once again, you reverse the scriptural order of repentance then faith for salvation because you re-define terms and teach salvation by works. What a mess! This article below explains it so well.

In regards to faith, those in the Churches of Christ often fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life, and most cannot distinguish between mere intellectual belief or assent from a personal faith that is trusting or resting on Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Here, they will cite that “even the devils believe” (from James 2:19) in their sermons and will contend that even the "faith of devils" is the same as any other faith except that the faith of devils lacks any moral or religious good works.

Thus, their understanding gives rise to their reversal of the scriptural order of repentance and faith, and yet as we will find, there is not a single scripture in the New Testament to support their view.

Faith and Repentance

To be saved, does a person first believe or repent? What is biblical repentance? What does the Bible mean to repent?

www.cofcdilemma.org

We only are taught today that Jesus is in the Godhead.
Thus we must all believe in Jesus and Him who sent Him as well as the Holy Spirit.

I believe in the Trinity.

After faith we must repent of sins.

Define "repent of sins." Bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics remains your problem when interpreting Scripture.

This is the example we have in Acts 2:37-38.
That is Jesus' gospel.

Jesus gospel is not salvation by works. That's your gospel.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said: Dan continues to prove he has been taught by confused and ignorant men by this belief below,

That statement is the epitome of irony!

According to Dan confessing with our mouths our faith in Christ is the exact same thing as believing in our hearts, no difference!

When did I say it's the exact same thing? You are a false accuser of the brethren.

Heres the passage Dan does not rightly divide,
Romans 10:9-10,
- and if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the MOUTH confession is made unto salvation.

Notice: one is done in the heart
The other is done with the mouth

Notice this is done TOGETHER. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach). Open your eyes. Paul is not teaching that we believe in our heart today (and remain lost) then confess with our mouth next week (and are finally saved next week). Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

Dan teaches confession and believing equates, as one in the same.

I believe the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER just as Romans 10:8 says. Now someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth.

Jesus does not teach this,
Here the confession must be PUBLIC SAID OUTLOUD WITH THE MOUTH,

Matthew 10:32-33,
- Therefore whoever confesses Me before MEN, him will I also confess before My Father in heaven.
But whoever denies Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father in heaven.
This is Jesus telling that the confession must be before men.
Paul said it is with the mouth.

Does belief in Jesus have to be with the mouth before men?
No.

I already thoroughly explained this to you in post #227 yet I can see that the truth just continues to go right over your head.

A Test Of Reading Comprehension and Honesty

Since Dan believes that the confession is the same as believing in the heart then he must be ignorant of John 12:42,
- Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Jesus but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue.

John teaches faith and the confession are NOT the same thing as Dan wrongly does.

Again, you are a false accuser of the brethren. I already thoroughly explained John 12:42 to you in post #368 and once again the truth just went right over your head.

A Test Of Reading Comprehension and Honesty

Seeking salvation by works is not following God. (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). More misrepresentation. I do not seek a works based salvation. The gospel is by faith. It is a grace through faith based. Ephesians 2:8-9. But to remove all works out of...

www.christianityboard.com

We have an example of a man being converted, obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ to be saved.
He gives His confession AFTER he has already believed in his heart.
Acts 8:37,
- See here is water what hinders me from being baptized?
Then Philip said if you believe with all your heart you may,
And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

First he believed in his heart.
Then before Philip he confesses with his mouth his faith in Jesus Christ.

This is the confession with the mouth that is made unto salvation.

Now wait a minute. According to your 4 step plan of salvation (1. faith 2. repentance 3. confession 4. baptism) one must complete all 4 steps "in that order" before one is saved so a person must receive water baptism before they are saved according to your 4 step plan of salvation and this confession in Acts 8 took place before water baptism. Hmm.. Also, when one believes unto righteousness, they are saved (Romans 4:5; 10:10) yet according to your 4 step plan of salvation, believes unto righteousness/confession is made unto salvation would be a lie. Would you mind explaining yourself? Let's see you get out of this one Houdini.

Here is the gospel of Christ to be saved,
Faith, repentance, confession, baptism.

No, that 4 step plan of salvation "in that order" to be saved is the false gospel of the church of Christ and is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

That is not faith alone salvation.

This is faith alone salvation. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Let me know when you are ready to repent (change your mind) and place your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I have asked you repeatedly to contact multiple Greek scholars and ask them what baptism is Colossians 2:12.
There is a consensus that it is water baptism where God works His power.
You would rather believe your church doctrine over the best Greek scholars in the world.

the following is taken from weist.. word studies in the greek new testament..

Baptise, baptism, these two words are not native to the english language, therefore do not have any intrinsic meaning of their own. The only rightfull meaning they can have is the one derived from the greek word of which they are the spelling. The verb is spelled Baptizo, from which a slight change in spelling we get our worde baptize, the noun is baptisma, and taking off the last letter we have baptism.
we will study these words first in their classic usage. The word baptizo is related to another greek word bapto. the latter meant to dip, dip under. it was used of the smith tempering the red hot steel. it was also used of the sense of to dip in die, to colour or steep. it was used in the act of dieing the hair, and of glazing earthen vessels. it was used as a proverb in the sense of "steeping someone in crimson". that is giving him a bloddy caxcomb. It meant also to fill by dipping in, to draw. It was used of a ship that dipped, that is sank. Baptiso the related word meant to dip repeatedly. it was used of the act of sinking ships. it meant also to bathe. it was used in the phrase soaked in wine. where the word soaked, is the meaning of baptizo. it is found in the phrase overhead and ears in debt, where the word overhead and ears, are the graphic nature of what the word meant. the word here therefor means completely submerged. our present day english equivilent would be sunk. A baptes is one who dips or dyes. a baptisis is a dipping, bathing, a washing, a drawing of water. A baptisma is that which is dipped, a baptisteron is a bathing place, a baptistes is one that dips, a dyer, baptos means dipped, dyed. bright colored, drawn like water.
Baptizo is used in the 9th book of the odyssey, where the hissing of the burning eye of the cyclops is compaired to the sound of water where the smith dips ( baptizo) a piece of iron, tempering it. , in the battle of frogs and mice, it is said that a mouse thrust a frog with a reed, and the frogged leaped over the water, dying ( baptizo ) the weater with blood. Euripides uses the word as a ship which goes down in the water and does not come back to the surface. Lucian dreams that he has seen a huge bird shot with a mighty arrow, and as it flies high in the air, it dies ( baptizo) the earth with his blood. in Xenophon's Anabasis, we have the instance where the Greek soldiers placed ( baptizo) the points of their spears in a bowl of blood.
We come now to the usage of these words in the koine greek, giving examples from the papyri, the LXX, and the new testament.
In secular documents of the koine period, moulton and Milligan report the following uses of baptise.. A submerged boat, ceremonial ablusions, a person flooded or overwhelmed in calamities. they say that the word was used in its metaphorical sense even among the uneducated of people. . A biblical example of this is found in our Lords speaking of his passion as a baptism ( matt 10: 38), these scholars report the use of bapto as referring to fullers and dyers. the word is used of colored garments, and of wool to be dyed. the word baptisma is found in a question regaurding a new baptism someone is reported to be preaching. This use of the noun is peculiar to the N.T. and to ecclesiastical writers.
In the LXX we have in leviticus 4: 6 the words, and the priest shall dip ( bapto) his finger in the blood, and sprinkle (prosraino) of the blood seven times before the Lord. Here the word Bapto is found juxtaposition to prostriano, a verb closely allied with prozrantizo, baptiso meaning to dip, the latter verb to sprinkle
In the NT we have the rich man asking that lazerus dip ( bapto) his finger in water and cool his tongue. ( luke 16: 24 ). In Heb 9: 10, Baptisma is translated washings and refers to the ceremonial ablusions of Judaism. In Mark 7: 4 Baptisma is used of the ceremonial washings of cups, pots, brazen vessels and tables, Baptisma is used in Matt 3: 7 and baptizo in matt 3: 16 and 1 cor 14 of the rite of water baptism. In Mark 10: 38 our Lord speaks of his sufferings on the cross as the baptisma with which he is to be baptizo.
In these examples we see various uses of the words bapto and baptizo we discover three distinct usages, a mechanical, a ceremonial and a metaphoricle one.
The mechanical usage can be illustrated by the action of the smith dipping the hot iron in water, tempering it, or the dyer dipping the cloth in the dye for the purpose of dying it. these instances of the use of our greek word, give us the following defenition of the word in its mechanical usage. the word refers to the introduction or placing of a person or thing into a new environment or into union with something else, as to alter its condition or its relationship to its previous environment or condition. While the word, we found, had other uses, yet the one that predominated above the others was the mechanical one. Observe how perfectly the meaning is in accord with the usage of the word in rom 6: 3- 4. where the believing sinner is baptized into vital union with Jesus Christ. The believing sinner is introduced or placed in Christ, thus comming into union with him. By that action, he is taken out of his old environment and condition in which he had lived, the first adam, and is placed into a new environment and condition, the last Adam. By this action his condition is changed from that of a lost sinner with a totally depraved nature to that of a saint with a devine nature. His relationship to the law of God is changed from that of a guilty sinner to that of a justified saint. All this is accomplish with the act of the Holy Spirit introducing, or placing us into vital union with Jesus Christ. No ceremony of water baptism ever did that! The entire context is supernatural in its character. The greek word here should not be transliterated but translated. The translation should read; " as many were introduced (placed ) into Christ jesus, into his death were introduced. therefore we were buried with him through the aformentioned introduction into his death. The same holds true for 1 cor 12: 13; which should be translated " for through the instrumentality of one spirit, we were all placed into one body." It is because we so often associate the english word "baptism" with the rite of water baptism, that we read that ceremony into Romans 6. A student is one of the writer's greek classes who is a greek himself, who learned to speak that language as his mother tongue and studied it in the schools of greece, stated during a class discussion that the greek reader would react to the Greek Text of Romans and the word baptizo as the writer has.

 

[Titus]

You completely deny that salvation is by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) By placing our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation we did not work for our salvation.

Wrong, I completely agree with Paul, Ephesians 2:8-9.
I don't agree with your error of ignorance in twisting what Paul preached.
When you say "we did not work for our salvation" You are referring to mans works of meriting salvation.
A false misrepresentation of what I believe.
Continue to put words in my mouth by creating a strawman fallacy.

We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) You teach salvation by works.

Therefore the good works of Christ is NOT what we are saved By.

. I am not denying that without the work on the cross, we could not be saved. Yet still, we are not saved by works (Ephesians 2:9)

Very confused man.
He said Not By works. Now says the opposite that works save us.

are wrong and it's the error of your "works based" false gospel that I notice. The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..)

Dan is now back to no works only faith saves.

Paul preaches repentance "precedes" faith (Acts 20:21) and you preach repentance "follows" faith because that's what you have been taught by your church. You are simply "parroting off" what your predecessors before you have taught. This article below explains your confusion.

Notice Dan teaches we are saved by faith alone with NO ADDITIONS.
Yet He says repentance comes before faith.
Dan fails to understand he has repentance and faith to be saved.
Will Dan be honest and say we can skip repentance before believing in Jesus and be saved?
He will not because you cannot be saved without repentance and faith.

Mark 1:15 - The time is accomplished, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

YOU HAVE IT BACKWARDS

Dan tries so hard to get repentance out of salvation so that he can claim it is faith alone, yet his doctrine does not solve his predicament.

Notice Mark 1:15, these Jews WERE ALREADY BELIEVERS IN GOD. That is why they are told to repent because they needed to get their lives right in order to believe in Jesus and faithful to Him.
This repentance is a repentance of sins not a made up definition that repentance is unbelief to belief as Dan wrongly teaches.
They were already believers in God but had sin in their lives.
The order is Believers told to repent and believe on their Messiah Jesus. This is all new, a changing of their whole religion.

Acts 20:21,
Same situation.
They were not unbelievers as Dan wants you to believe.
They already believed in God but needed to repent.
Same order, believers told to repent and believe in the new gospel of Jesus Christ, to put their faith in Christ.

I never said that repentance was not required. We must first repent (change our mind) before we can believe the gospel and become saved. It's godly sorrow along with acknowledging that we are sinners in need of a Savior that brings up to this change of mind.

Now Dan is teaching in order to be saved we must repent and have faith alone to be saved.
This contradicts his faith alone apart from any additions he taught.
Cannot be faith ALONE if repentance is also required.

He called all to repent or perish. For some people though, prior to coming to the end result of repentance in receiving salvation (faith in Christ), they must change their minds about other specific things in order to get there. Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about his previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God (1 Thessalonians 1:9). On the other hand, this change of mind, focuses on the new direction that change about God must ultimately take, namely, trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation

Here Dan admits repentance is a repentance of sin, quote: "and disbelief in God or false beliefs(polytheism and idolatry) about God.
Belief in and worship of other gods is a sin that they must repent of to be saved.
Dan once again contradicts his definition of repentance which he only defines as changing the mind from unbelief to belief.

Dan needs to explain how one can repent i.e. change the mind, yet not stop the sin of unbelief or belief in other gods as many today follow.

Yes, we are saved through faith (rightly understood) alone. The moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation we are saved. That's the alone part. We are not saved by works which "follow" faith so it's still faith alone.

Dan is trying to be saved by faith alone excluding any additions.
Yet he already taught repentance and faith to be saved.

In regards to faith, those in the Churches of Christ often fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life, and most cannot distinguish between mere intellectual belief or assent from a personal faith that is trusting or resting on Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

James said faith apart from obeying the commandments of God is a dead faith.
Nowhere does James teach faith alone is a living faith.
James only defines faith alone seperate from obedient works as dead!
Dan believes faith alone is a living faith.
James 2:20,
- But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead.

Dan rejects James' teaching by teaching faith without works is a living saving faith.
James 2:26,
- for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I agree with James' teaching.

No contradiction at all. Where salvation is in view, repentance actually "precedes" saving faith in Christ and is not a totally separate act from faith. It is actually the same coin with two sides. Repentance is on one side (what you change your mind about) and faith in Christ is on the positive side, (the new direction of this change of mind). Repentance and faith are two sides of the same experience of receiving Christ. This has nothing to do with "faith only" (per James) salvation which only claims to be genuine, yet demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead. (James 2:14) That is not genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith/dead faith

Dan says repentance precedes saving faith.

I never said these were atheists who changed their minds and believed in Christ for salvation. We would need to first believe in the existence of God before we would even consider changing our mind and choosing to believe in Christ for salvation.

Quote: "we would need to first believe in the existence of God before we would even consider changing our mind(repentance)".

It matters not belief in God or Jesus.
Dan said belief must come first in order to repent.

Dan has admitted that if we evangelize the gospel to an atheist.
First we must get them to BELIEVE in God.
Then they would be willing to repent.

This makes sense.
Dan also teaches repentance precedes faith.

Therefore we would evangelize to the atheist to repent first.
Then tell them to believe that God exists.

Acts 2:37-38,
Firs believed in the gospel Peter preached.
Next they repented and were baptized for the remission of their sins.
Then they received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I believe the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER just as Romans 10:8 says. Now someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth

Wrong, a mute can speak publicly.
He can use sign language.
He can use pen and paper.

God never requires a commandment in His gospel if that person is incapable of obeying His commandments.

A down syndrome person is not required to obey Jesus' gospel because they are not able physically or mentally.

A mute person that does understand the gospel can obey it.
God will allow that person to do what they are able to do.

This is another attempt to disobey God and be saved.
Dan's gospel is salvation through disobedience to God.

" did I say it's the exact same thing? You are a false accuser of the brethren"

This statement is about me teaching Dan's misinterpretation of Romans 10:9-10.
Dan teaches faith with the heart and confessing with the mouth as the same.
Dan accuses me of making a false statement about his belief on belief in the heart and confession with the mouth.

I believe the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER just as Romans 10:8 says. Now someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth

 

[Titus]

the following is taken from weist.. word studies in the greek new testament..

Baptise, baptism, these two words are not native to the english language, therefore do not have any intrinsic meaning of their own. The only rightfull meaning they can have is the one derived from the greek word of which they are the spelling. The verb is spelled Baptizo, from which a slight change in spelling we get our worde baptize, the noun is baptisma, and taking off the last letter we have baptism.
we will study these words first in their classic usage. The word baptizo is related to another greek word bapto. the latter meant to dip, dip under. it was used of the smith tempering the red hot steel. it was also used of the sense of to dip in die, to colour or steep. it was used in the act of dieing the hair, and of glazing earthen vessels. it was used as a proverb in the sense of "steeping someone in crimson". that is giving him a bloddy caxcomb. It meant also to fill by dipping in, to draw. It was used of a ship that dipped, that is sank. Baptiso the related word meant to dip repeatedly. it was used of the act of sinking ships. it meant also to bathe. it was used in the phrase soaked in wine. where the word soaked, is the meaning of baptizo. it is found in the phrase overhead and ears in debt, where the word overhead and ears, are the graphic nature of what the word meant. the word here therefor means completely submerged. our present day english equivilent would be sunk. A baptes is one who dips or dyes. a baptisis is a dipping, bathing, a washing, a drawing of water. A baptisma is that which is dipped, a baptisteron is a bathing place, a baptistes is one that dips, a dyer, baptos means dipped, dyed. bright colored, drawn like water.
Baptizo is used in the 9th book of the odyssey, where the hissing of the burning eye of the cyclops is compaired to the sound of water where the smith dips ( baptizo) a piece of iron, tempering it. , in the battle of frogs and mice, it is said that a mouse thrust a frog with a reed, and the frogged leaped over the water, dying ( baptizo ) the weater with blood. Euripides uses the word as a ship which goes down in the water and does not come back to the surface. Lucian dreams that he has seen a huge bird shot with a mighty arrow, and as it flies high in the air, it dies ( baptizo) the earth with his blood. in Xenophon's Anabasis, we have the instance where the Greek soldiers placed ( baptizo) the points of their spears in a bowl of blood.
We come now to the usage of these words in the koine greek, giving examples from the papyri, the LXX, and the new testament.
In secular documents of the koine period, moulton and Milligan report the following uses of baptise.. A submerged boat, ceremonial ablusions, a person flooded or overwhelmed in calamities. they say that the word was used in its metaphorical sense even among the uneducated of people. . A biblical example of this is found in our Lords speaking of his passion as a baptism ( matt 10: 38), these scholars report the use of bapto as referring to fullers and dyers. the word is used of colored garments, and of wool to be dyed. the word baptisma is found in a question regaurding a new baptism someone is reported to be preaching. This use of the noun is peculiar to the N.T. and to ecclesiastical writers.
In the LXX we have in leviticus 4: 6 the words, and the priest shall dip ( bapto) his finger in the blood, and sprinkle (prosraino) of the blood seven times before the Lord. Here the word Bapto is found juxtaposition to prostriano, a verb closely allied with prozrantizo, baptiso meaning to dip, the latter verb to sprinkle
In the NT we have the rich man asking that lazerus dip ( bapto) his finger in water and cool his tongue. ( luke 16: 24 ). In Heb 9: 10, Baptisma is translated washings and refers to the ceremonial ablusions of Judaism. In Mark 7: 4 Baptisma is used of the ceremonial washings of cups, pots, brazen vessels and tables, Baptisma is used in Matt 3: 7 and baptizo in matt 3: 16 and 1 cor 14 of the rite of water baptism. In Mark 10: 38 our Lord speaks of his sufferings on the cross as the baptisma with which he is to be baptizo.
In these examples we see various uses of the words bapto and baptizo we discover three distinct usages, a mechanical, a ceremonial and a metaphoricle one.
The mechanical usage can be illustrated by the action of the smith dipping the hot iron in water, tempering it, or the dyer dipping the cloth in the dye for the purpose of dying it. these instances of the use of our greek word, give us the following defenition of the word in its mechanical usage. the word refers to the introduction or placing of a person or thing into a new environment or into union with something else, as to alter its condition or its relationship to its previous environment or condition. While the word, we found, had other uses, yet the one that predominated above the others was the mechanical one. Observe how perfectly the meaning is in accord with the usage of the word in rom 6: 3- 4. where the believing sinner is baptized into vital union with Jesus Christ. The believing sinner is introduced or placed in Christ, thus comming into union with him. By that action, he is taken out of his old environment and condition in which he had lived, the first adam, and is placed into a new environment and condition, the last Adam. By this action his condition is changed from that of a lost sinner with a totally depraved nature to that of a saint with a devine nature. His relationship to the law of God is changed from that of a guilty sinner to that of a justified saint. All this is accomplish with the act of the Holy Spirit introducing, or placing us into vital union with Jesus Christ. No ceremony of water baptism ever did that! The entire context is supernatural in its character. The greek word here should not be transliterated but translated. The translation should read; " as many were introduced (placed ) into Christ jesus, into his death were introduced. therefore we were buried with him through the aformentioned introduction into his death. The same holds true for 1 cor 12: 13; which should be translated " for through the instrumentality of one spirit, we were all placed into one body." It is because we so often associate the english word "baptism" with the rite of water baptism, that we read that ceremony into Romans 6. A student is one of the writer's greek classes who is a greek himself, who learned to speak that language as his mother tongue and studied it in the schools of greece, stated during a class discussion that the greek reader would react to the Greek Text of Romans and the word baptizo as the writer has.

Using one scholar is showing bias.
Honest men never use one man.
I told you to contact multiple Greek scholars and learn what they teach on Colossians 2:12.

Your source interjects his biases into his writings.
Find good scholars that leave their religion out of their writings.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Using one scholar is showing bias.
Honest men never use one man.
I told you to contact multiple Greek scholars and learn what they teach on Colossians 2:12.

Your source interjects his biases into his writings.
Find good scholars that leave their religion out of their writings.

It does not matter what scholar I use. I get the same meaning

the greek word baptizo is to be immersed. it does not mean "immersed in water"

When the word says we are immersed into christ. it means that plain and simple

Instead of using a transliterated word. Actually translate the word

Col 2: 12 is repeating what romans 6 says, Being baptised or immersed placed into CHrist, and his death

Its not water baptism..

I am baptised in water. Not Christ at my water baptism

 

[Titus]

It does not matter what scholar I use. I get the same meaning

the greek word baptizo is to be immersed. it does not mean "immersed in water"

When the word says we are immersed into christ. it means that plain and simple

Instead of using a transliterated word. Actually translate the word

Col 2: 12 is repeating what romans 6 says, Being baptised or immersed placed into CHrist, and his death

Its not water baptism..

I am baptised in water. Not Christ at my water baptism

Baptized is how you are placed into Christ.
Galatians 3:26-27,
- For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ.
- for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Baptized is how you are placed into Christ.
Galatians 3:26-27,
- For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ.
- for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Baptized INTO CHRIST

Not water

It does not say Baptized in water in christ

It literally means to be placed into Christ. Your adding the word water

 

[Titus]

It does not matter what scholar I use. I get the same meaning

the greek word baptizo is to be immersed. it does not mean "immersed in water"

When the word says we are immersed into christ. it means that plain and simple

Instead of using a transliterated word. Actually translate the word

Col 2: 12 is repeating what romans 6 says, Being baptised or immersed placed into CHrist, and his death

Its not water baptism..

I am baptised in water. Not Christ at my water baptism

No where does it

Baptized INTO CHRIST

Not water

It does not say Baptized in water in christ

It literally means to be placed into Christ. Your adding the word water

No, look at verse 26,
-for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ.

Passage does not say we are baptized into Christ by faith alone.
The next passage tells us when we get into Christ.
That is baptism.
So you are wrong that faith only gets us into Christ.
The Bible teaches faith then baptized into Christ.

Show me one new testament passage that teaches faith alone is immersion?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No where does it

No, look at verse 26,
-for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ.

Passage does not say we are baptized into Christ by faith alone.
The next passage tells us when we get into Christ.
That is baptism.
So you are wrong that faith only gets us into Christ.
The Bible teaches faith then baptized into Christ.

Show me one new testament passage that teaches faith alone is immersion?

lol

You will find out one day my friend

I was baptized into christ as the passage says.

if you only look for people who agree with you you will never find the truth.

 

[Titus]

It does not matter what scholar I use. I get the same meaning

the greek word baptizo is to be immersed. it does not mean "immersed in water"

When the word says we are immersed into christ. it means that plain and simple

Instead of using a transliterated word. Actually translate the word

Col 2: 12 is repeating what romans 6 says, Being baptised or immersed placed into CHrist, and his death

Its not water baptism..

I am baptised in water. Not Christ at my water baptism

No where does it

Baptized INTO CHRIST

Not water

It does not say Baptized in water in christ

It literally means to be placed into Christ. Your adding the word water

Also show me where it says Holy Spirit immersion

 

[Titus]

lol

You will find out one day my friend

I was baptized into christ as the passage says.

if you only look for people who agree with you you will never find the truth.

You did not give an answer.
You cannot give one new testament scripture that teaches we are immersed into Christ by faith alone
Immersion comes after faith.
Now we must learn what that immersion is.

What baptism is Peter teaching that saves us?, 1Peter 3:20-21,
- there is also an antitype which now saves us immersion....

Which immersion is Peter teaching?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You did not give an answer.
You cannot give one new testament scripture that teaches we are immersed into Christ by faith alone
Immersion comes after faith.
Now we must learn what that immersion is.

What baptism is Peter teaching that saves us?, 1Peter 3:20-21,
- there is also an antitype which now saves us immersion....

Which immersion is Peter teaching?

I am wasting my time

to be baptized into Christ literally means to be immersed into Christ.

Col 2 says it is done in the working of God. who raised Christ.

Your pastor did not raise Christ.

12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead

I am done with this nonsense.

 

[MatthewG]

In all honesty none of the Bible was written to me, nor does the nation I live in pertain to the narrative (other than all nations are blessed because of Christ).

 

[Titus]

to be baptized into Christ literally means to be immersed into Christ

Yes

Col 2 says it is done in the working of God. who raised Christ.

Your pastor did not raise Christ

Obvious, silly comment.

12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead

Through faith. Faith alone?
This teaches the same as Galatians 3:26-27,
Baptized into Christ.
Baptism is faith in action.
All obedience to Gods commandments are done from faith in Jesus. This includes immersion

 

[mailmandan]

Wrong, I completely agree with Paul, Ephesians 2:8-9.

No you don't completely agree with Paul in Ephesians 2:8,9. You try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works.
Here is a statement below from someone who attends the church of Christ that I was in a previous discussion with. Look what he said:
"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit." I did not realize Jesus needed our help.

I don't agree with your error of ignorance in twisting what Paul preached.
When you say "we did not work for our salvation" You are referring to mans works of meriting salvation.
A false misrepresentation of what I believe.
Continue to put words in my mouth by creating a straw man fallacy.

Works are still works, regardless of what label you slap on them and we are saved by grace through faith and not by works/not by works of righteousness which we have done/not according to our works. (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Period. No straw man fallacy on my part and you can't have it both ways.

Therefore the good works of Christ is NOT what we are saved By.

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works.

Very confused man.

Yes you are and very stubborn as well.

He said Not By works. Now says the opposite that works save us.

Christ's finished work of redemption is not our works. Good grief! You really know how to make things complicated.

Dan is now back to no works only faith saves.

We are not saved by works. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Notice Dan teaches we are saved by faith alone with NO ADDITIONS.

Saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Yet He says repentance comes before faith.

It certainly does. (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21)

Dan fails to understand he has repentance and faith to be saved.

I fully understand that repentance "precedes" faith in Christ unto salvation and that repentance and faith are two sides to the same coin. That still does not negate the fact that we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Will Dan be honest and say we can skip repentance before believing in Jesus and be saved?
He will not because you cannot be saved without repentance and faith.

To say that we truly repented but we have not placed our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is an oxymoron and to say that we have placed our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation but we never repented is also an oxymoron.

Dan tries so hard to get repentance out of salvation so that he can claim it is faith alone, yet his doctrine does not solve his predicament.

Actually that is slander on your part and excluding repentance out of salvation is not what is meant by faith alone. Again, we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Those who have done so have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Simple! Too simple! There is no predicament to solve other than you choosing to repent and believe the gospel.

Notice Mark 1:15, these Jews WERE ALREADY BELIEVERS IN GOD. That is why they are told to repent because they needed to get their lives right in order to believe in Jesus and faithful to Him.

Believing in the existence of God is still not believing the gospel which explains why they still needed to repent. Stop confusing the fruit of repentance with the essence of repentance. This is how you end up with salvation by works.

This repentance is a repentance of sins not a made up definition that repentance is unbelief to belief as Dan wrongly teaches.
They were already believers in God but had sin in their lives.
The order is Believers told to repent and believe on their Messiah Jesus. This is all new, a changing of their whole religion.

Those who repent and believe the gospel turn from practicing sin to practicing righteousness. (1 John 3:9-10) Repentance does not mean become sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time, which only Jesus Christ was.

Acts 20:21,
Same situation.
They were not unbelievers as Dan wants you to believe.
They already believed in God but needed to repent.
Same order, believers told to repent and believe in the new gospel of Jesus Christ, to put their faith in Christ.

Simply believing in the existence of God does not make you a believer in the Biblical sense of being saved. They still needed to repent and place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and so do you.

Now Dan is teaching in order to be saved we must repent and have faith alone to be saved.

We must repent and place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation in order to be saved.

This contradicts his faith alone apart from any additions he taught.

No it doesn't because faith alone does not imply there was no repentance which preceded faith which trusts in Christ alone for salvation.

Cannot be faith ALONE if repentance is also required.

Yes it can because faith ALONE does not mean without repentance, without grace, with Christ's finished work of redemption etc.. Good grief you are confused! It means we are saved the moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ ALONE for salvation. How much more do I need to break it down for you?

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said: Here Dan admits repentance is a repentance of sin, quote: "and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God.

I never said this change of mind in repentance was not in regards to sin. (Romans 3:23; 6:23) We are repenting in the first place because of our sin and because we need a Savior.

Belief in and worship of other gods is a sin that they must repent of to be saved.
Dan once again contradicts his definition of repentance which he only defines as changing the mind from unbelief to belief.

I already explained what was involved in this change of mind prior to placing our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. It's you who is building a straw man argument.

Dan needs to explain how one can repent i.e. change the mind, yet not stop the sin of unbelief or belief in other gods as many today follow.

If you come to believe in the one true God, then you are not going to believe in other gods, yet merely believing there is one God in of itself does not save. Even the demons believe this (James 2:19) yet they are not saved. I already thoroughly explained all of this but I might as well be talking to a brick wall.

Dan is trying to be saved by faith alone excluding any additions.
Yet he already taught repentance and faith to be saved.

Repentance "precedes" faith and is not an addition. Works which "follow" saving faith in Christ would be additions.

James said faith apart from obeying the commandments of God is a dead faith.

James is talking about a dead faith and not authentic faith.

Nowhere does James teach faith alone is a living faith.

Nowhere does James teach we are saved by works. Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation is a living faith (Ephesians 2:5-9) yet this living faith does not remain alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14-24) This is very difficult for works-salvationists to grasp.

James only defines faith alone seperate from obedient works as dead!

James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

Dan believes faith alone is a living faith.

Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation is a living faith (Ephesians 2:5-9) yet this living faith this living faith does not remain alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14-24) James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

James 2:20,
- But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Is any of this sinking in yet?

Dan rejects James' teaching by teaching faith without works is a living saving faith.
James 2:26,
- for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I accept James' teaching. In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

I agree with James' teaching.

No you don't. James is not teaching salvation by works. Read James 2:14-26 then harmonize it with Romans 4:2-6.

Dan says repentance precedes saving faith.

Dan is right.

Quote: "we would need to first believe in the existence of God before we would even consider changing our mind (repentance)".

Yes, before we could even consider changing our mind and placing our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

It matters not belief in God or Jesus.
Dan said belief must come first in order to repent.

Mere "mental assent" belief in the existence of God is not saving belief in Christ for salvation. You need to read this article below again.

Faith and Repentance

To be saved, does a person first believe or repent? What is biblical repentance? What does the Bible mean to repent?

www.cofcdilemma.org

Dan has admitted that if we evangelize the gospel to an atheist.
First we must get them to BELIEVE in God.
Then they would be willing to repent.
This makes sense.
Dan also teaches repentance precedes faith.

You actually agreed with me here?

Therefore we would evangelize to the atheist to repent first.
Then tell them to believe that God exists.

Changing your mind from not believing in the existence of God to believing in the existence of God in of itself will not save you. This change of mind must ultimately result in trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation in order to become saved.

Acts 2:37-38,
Firs believed in the gospel Peter preached.
Next they repented and were baptized for the remission of their sins.
Then they received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Believing they were guilty of crucifying their Messiah is not believing the gospel unto salvation which explains why they still needed to repent and place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Wrong, a mute can speak publicly.
He can use sign language.
He can use pen and paper.

That's still not verbally with their mouth, yet the word of faith is still in their mouth and in their heart.

God never requires a commandment in His gospel if that person is incapable of obeying His commandments.

Have you flawlessly obeyed all of His commandments?

A down syndrome person is not required to obey Jesus' gospel because they are not able physically or mentally.

God is their judge and knows everyones heart.

A mute person that does understand the gospel can obey it.
God will allow that person to do what they are able to do.

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

This is another attempt to disobey God and be saved.
Dan's gospel is salvation through disobedience to God.

More slander.

" did I say it's the exact same thing? You are a false accuser of the brethren"

This statement is about me teaching Dan's misinterpretation of Romans 10:9-10.
Dan teaches faith with the heart and confessing with the mouth as the same.
Dan accuses me of making a false statement about his belief on belief in the heart and confession with the mouth.

I never said that belief in the heart and confession with the mouth were the exact same thing. I said they were not two separate steps to salvation (believe today but still lost, confess next week and finally saved next week) but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8)

I'm still waiting for you to explain how someone can believe unto righteousness and still be lost or confess unto salvation (Romans 10:10) and still be lost until they are water baptized "afterwards." That is the dilemma that your 4 step gospel plan presents.

 

[Titus]

No you don't completely agree with Paul in Ephesians 2:8,9. You try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works.
Here is a statement below from someone who attends the church of Christ that I was in a previous discussion with. Look what he said:
"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit." I did not realize Jesus needed our help

The problem Dan is your ignorance of the scriptures.
You have a preconceived doctrine that teaches those Ephesians were saved without doing anything.
If you were a good Bible student would know that Paul taught the gospel to those Ephesians.
You would also know where in the Bible their conversion is recorded.
But you dont. That's why you assume they were saved by faith and no obedience to God.

Stop listening to your Biblically ignorant church statements of faith and just believe what the Bible says.

Here is the Ephesians conversion to Christ,
Acts 19:1-7,
- And it happened while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus, and finding some disciples he said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? So the Ephesians said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit. And Paul said to them, Into what then were you baptized? So the Ephesians said, "Into John's baptism.
Why were they baptized into John's baptism and not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ?
It is because they were taught by Apollos. Apollos was ignorant of Jesus' baptism, he only knew about John's baptism.
John's baptism was already ended when Apollos baptized the Ephesians in the name of John.
Therefore Paul had to educate them on the gospel of Jesus' baptism.

Note: Apollos taught them to believe in Jesus.
But Apollos did not know about Jesus' baptism, he only knew of John's.

Go back to chapter 18. READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER.
It proves what I am telling you as the word of God.
Acts 18:26,
- So Apollos began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquilia and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

This is why Paul must educate the Ephesians on Jesus' gospel.
Remember Apollos already taught them to believe in Jesus just as John the baptizer taught.
Mark 1:7,
John the baptizer preached Jesus to the jews,
- And John preached saying "There is One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stop down and loose, I indeed baptize you with water but Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Now back to Paul proclaiming the WHOLE gospel of Christ to the Ephesians,Acts 19:1-7,
-So they said into John's baptism.
Then Paul said, John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after me, that is ON CHRIST JESUS.
verse 5,
- WHEN THEY HEARD THIS THEY WERE BAPTIZED(WATER) IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS.
and when Paul laid hands on them the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied,
Now the men were about twelve in all.

When did the Ephesians believe in Jesus?
Answer when Apollos taught them to believe in Jesus.

When did the Ephesians get the Holy Spirit?
Answer after they were water baptized IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST.

Paul did not teach them to just believe only and you will be saved.
That's an assumption folks make in Ephesians 2:8-9!

Paul taught them the whole gospel of Jesus Christ, Mark 16:15-16.
Then after they obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ, Paul laid hands on them to recieve the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

They were baptized into Christ, Galatians 3:26-27.
- for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
- for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

The Bible teaches you are not IN Christ until you are baptized into Christ.

They were not saved by faith in Jesus alone.
Paul had to teach them the whole gospel so that they were water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

If they were saved when Apollos taught them to believe on Jesus.
Then why does Paul come and teach them correctly about why they needed to be baptized into Jesus' baptism and not John's baptism?

Paul knew they needed to hear the gospel of Christ.
They only knew about Jesus and to believe in Him,

Acts 18:24-25,
- Now a certain jew named Apollos born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures came to Ephesus
- This man had been instructed IN THE WAY OF THE LORD; and being fervent in spirit he spoke and taught ACCURATELY THE THINGS OF THE LORD, THOUGH HE ONLY KNEW THE BAPTISM OF JOHN


The Ephesians were already believers in Christ but Paul taught them the gospel because they needed to be saved and recieve the Holy Spirit that they being believers HAD NOT EVEN HEARD OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Matthew 22:29,
- Jesus answered and said to them,
You do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God