A Time Before Land-- looking back.... A New Adventure Series with Mr E

[Mr E]

People often look back to the Genesis account as brought to us by Moses as the definitive tale of our origin.... Maybe some among us can accept the idea of a land before time-- a long earth history of geological turmoil and the age of dinosaurs perhaps-- roaming the earth, long before humans entered the scene. Think as you will-- and we can start right there, as many have before me-- Or we can go back further-- to a time before land. To the time of creation and before creation... to the time before that time Moses tells us that elohim created the heavens and the earth.

First, some mood music.


Don't lose your way
With each passing day
You've come so far
Don't throw it away
Live believing
Dreams are for weaving
Wonders are waiting to start

Live your story
Faith, hope and glory
Hold to the truth in your heart

If we hold on together
I know our dreams will never die
Dreams see us through to forever
Where clouds roll by
For you and I

Souls in the wind
Must learn how to mend
Seek out a star
Hold on to the end

Valley, mountain
There is a fountain
Washes our tears all away

Words are swaying
Someone is praying
Please let us come home to stay

If we hold on together
I know our dreams will never die
Dreams see us through to forever
Where clouds roll by
For you and I

When we are out there in the dark
We'll dream about the sun
In the dark, we'll feel the light
Warm our hearts, everyone

If we hold on together
I know our dreams will never die
Dreams see us through to forever
As high as souls can fly
The clouds roll by
For you and I

 

[Mr E]

Okay-- let's have a bit of a storytime. It's intended to be fun, educational, and even mildly entertaining perhaps. Think of old Moses sitting around the campfire, somewhere in the wilderness- spinning his tale..... for forty years. Tale as old as time, true as it can be. And every so often someone writes a jingle-- a song of Moses, words put to music-- and in this way, the children learn the story, line by line from as early as they can recall, they can recite from memory ingrained.

And today people read it and recognize it as the scriptural account and consider it as if the creation account is a historical record-- this telling by Moses that began as a story. Don't discount stories.

He might have started with "Once upon a time..." -Instead he chose "In the beginning..." -But in the beginning of what? It's merely in the beginning of the story he was about to tell, because in truth-- there was indeed a time before the beginning. His story begins by introducing someone, or something called the elohim, which translators have reduced to "God" but Moses did not. He made a clear distinction between what and who he knew as God-- which he called Yahweh and translators call LORD in all caps in our modern Bibles, but Moses knew better. He doesn't start his story with 'In the beginning Yahweh created the heavens and the earth. He could have, but he didn't. He specifically and purposely said- 'In the beginning elohim created the heavens and the earth.'

This is the story of the elohim.

 

[Mr E]

Long before Moses, before humankind came to be formed from the dust of the earth, before even the land was separated from the waters and long before a single seed sprouted.... there were the elohim. The heavenly beings-- or spirits. These were the sons of God, whose abode is in heaven. They are spiritual beings, His offspring, Princes in His kingdom-invisible, a place beyond this earthly realm... in fact, that story told by Moses begins with these elohim creating this realm.

And so it was. The elohim became creators. Everything we (humans) think of as physical and solid and earthly-- all these things came to be as a result of the creative process undertaken by these spiritual sons of God. They were in existence before the beginning that Moses told us about. This heavenly realm, a paradise. From the moment they came into existence, they were with God-- in His presence.

What are they? How did they come to be? What is their nature? What is their purpose?

Oof.... so many questions.

 

[Mr E]

They called it paradise
I don't know why
You call someplace paradise and
Kiss it goodbye

“‘You were the sealer of perfection,
full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God.
Every precious stone was your covering,
the ruby, topaz, and emerald,
the chrysolite, onyx, and jasper,
the sapphire, turquoise, and beryl;
your settings and mounts were made of gold.

On the day you were created they were prepared.
I placed you there with an anointed guardian cherub;
you were on the holy mountain of God;
you walked about amidst fiery stones.
You were blameless in your behavior from the day you were created,
until sin was discovered in you.

 

[O'Darby]

You've probably read the late Dr. Michael S. Heiser of "Divine Council" and Unseen Realm fame. Are you going someplace different with this? I read much of his work but was never clear whether he was saying that this is merely what the ancient Jews believed or what he himself thought was literally true. He responded to an early review I wrote on Amazon, and he seemed to be of the "literally true" mindset.

Dr. Michael Heiser - Biblical Scholar | Author | Semitic Languages Expert

drmsh.com

Not to derail your thread, I'm just wondering if you're going in an entirely different direction.

 

[Mr E]

You've probably read the late Dr. Michael S. Heiser of "Divine Council" and Unseen Realm fame. Are you going someplace different with this? I read much of his work but was never clear whether he was saying that this is merely what the ancient Jews believed or what he himself thought was literally true. He responded to an early review I wrote on Amazon, and he seemed to be of the "literally true" mindset.

Dr. Michael Heiser - Biblical Scholar | Author | Semitic Languages Expert

drmsh.com

Not to derail your thread, I'm just wondering if you're going in an entirely different direction.

Yes, I know/knew Heiser and have read Unseen Realm. I don’t consider this a derailment at all, and while I greatly respected Mike, I do diverge at times from some of his opinions, despite his excellent scholarship and knowledge of what ancient Jews believed.

 

[Mr E]

There was God. And there was His divine offspring-- the elohim. Spirit gives birth to spirit. What is the mechanism of action? We truly can't comprehend because it is beyond our ability to perceive. The best we can do is reference associations and say 'it's like.....' this, or that. In spirit, these elohim are like God-- spirit. Non-corporeal you might have heard said, which simply means unbodied. But scripture explains their beginning by providing the association for us--"Spirit gives birth to spirit." It's a mystery, but not something completely shrouded and unknowable entirely. God gives us a peak behind the veil as to how these spiritual offspring come to be. And it's us.

There is the natural realm, we know. And there is the super-natural realm that is invisible. The higher realm, or as Heiser coined- 'the unseen realm' is invisible and unknown to us apart from one principle founded in scripture and directly by the teachings of Jesus Christ.

On earth as it is in heaven. It was his prayer and how he taught us to pray-- abiding this principle, because it matters.

In the natural realm, on earth-- a Father and a Mother unite and by this coming together a child is brought forth. It's the most natural process. This union, we understand. We have a good sense of the process and this process is an image of that process above. It's a reflection, or likeness of that process above and though we understand the physical, biological process (flesh gives birth to flesh) we have little or no information about the spiritual "birthing" process that we are told about in scripture. But it is in some way "like" our own. That's a given.

Some surmise that God-- the Father-- is male. And then by reason, the Holy Spirit must be His female counterpart, or the Mother, and it is the union of these two that produces these elohim offspring. It's not wrong. But how? Our thinking is limited 'by nature' and what we know of the natural process, but God is not limited by "nature" rather the super-natural is beyond nature, and the super-natural is the reality, while the natural is the mere shadow, reflection, image or likeness of that reality. For now, it's sufficient to say that the physical union and "reproduction process" is somehow "like" the supernatural union in a rather clunky way by comparison. And in both cases- as a result of the coming together of two parts-- offspring are produced.

God-- has a family. And they are "like" Him. Little likenesses of Him. They are His children--- And they are the elohim.

In the beginning the elohim created the heavens and the earth.

 

[Mr E]

It's not what you were told. It's not what you were taught... I get it. But it's what Moses wrote. He was specific.

He said-- "In the beginning the elohim created the heavens and the earth." -And I believe him.

What would that look like? What does that mean? -Well, if you can accept the idea that there is this 'other' realm, that is a higher (greater) reality than our natural world, that is a super-natural world, it's not a stretch at all. From God-the Father, who is spirit-- this supernatural realm is His abode and in this place He has offspring-- children of God, who are "like" Him. Divine beings- spirit born of spirit. They are not "as" Him, but they are like Him--- lessor offspring, just as human children are little versions of their parents, so too are these elohim little spittin' images of their Father. Like Him, they are not mortal, but immortal-- living forever, and I have no timeline to offer you. I can easily imagine millions and millions of years and go along with the idea of a land before time had any meaning because there is no fair measure of days in the eternal sense, everything is just as a moment.

Think for a moment-- and if you must, allow yourself to drift into however you might think of "God" in a creator sense. So imaginative, so.... well, creative. The biodiversity we see and enjoy has come from a source beyond us. From the ordinary to the strange and quite bizarre-- what kind of a mind could conceive of all this? It's the combination of intelligent design and unlimited imagination that brings everything we see, to be. And scripture says that at some moment in that vast span of forever ago-- that God's children-- scripture points directly to there being seven of them.... created our world.

And from the creative spirit and the unlimited imagination they inherited-- they set themselves to the task of creating. And it pleased the Father to see them this way-- at work. At play. And from their thoughts and by the work of their hands, they create what would be the equivalent of refrigerator art that He proudly displays. It starts as messy finger-painting, but over time becomes water color featuring their imaginary elements and figures and they conceive of things never before considered-- the water is gathered into one place and dry land appears and these elohim build a whole world from their play action, just as our children do--- it's amazing to watch. It's pure and beautiful, and natural and wonderful. And it's good.

They experiment. They play with ideas. They try things--- and so scripture records the process in Genesis, as Moses understood it, little by little, day by day, more complexity is added to the mix. And at some point, one of them makes these little clay figure-- molding and shaping until in some way it bears a resemblance. It becomes a likeness of him-- this one particular elohim. And to the others- he says... Let's all make these little clay figures-- images of ourselves..... and they did.

Then the elohim said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness, so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move on the earth.”

The elohim created humankind in his own image,
in the image of the elohim he created them,
male and female he created them.

 

[Cassandra]

Yes, let's pretend like the Bible is incorrect and have a bit of fun with it. Are you kidding me? It's either true or it isn't.

 

[Mr E]

Yes, let's pretend like the Bible is incorrect and have a bit of fun with it. Are you kidding me? It's either true or it isn't.

It’s true. It’s truly Moses’ account as he understood it.

Let me know where I’ve said any part of it is incorrect.

 

[O'Darby]

It's either true or it isn't.

"True" meaning what? All-inclusive, self-contained literal truth, no thinking allowed or necessary? True in the sense of "all that God wants us to know," no thinking allowed? True from the perspective of primitive Israelites into whose primitive notions we are forever locked, no thinking allowed? True in the sense that we're afraid of thinking or regard it as somehow offensive to God and therefore no thinking will be allowed?

Does true always mean literally true? Is poetry or metaphor or simile or apocalyptic ever true in some sense other than literally true? Does something being true preclude all examination of it, all possibility of it being extended into deeper truth?

One could go on an on, but these kind of "it's true or it isn't" statements always strike me as motivated more by fear than anything else. I think the Bible is true in about five different senses, each sense applicable to different parts of the Bible but none of which precludes me from examining it and thinking about it.

 

[Mr E]

"True" meaning what? All-inclusive, self-contained literal truth, no thinking allowed or necessary? True in the sense of "all that God wants us to know," no thinking allowed? True from the perspective of primitive Israelites into whose primitive notions we are forever locked, no thinking allowed? True in the sense that we're afraid of thinking or regard it as somehow offensive to God and therefore no thinking will be allowed?

Does true always mean literally true? Is poetry or metaphor or simile or apocalyptic ever true in some sense other than literally true? Does something being true preclude all examination of it, all possibility of it being extended into deeper truth?

One could go on an on, but these kind of "it's true or it isn't" statements always strike me as motivated more by fear than anything else. I think the Bible is true in about five different senses, each sense applicable to different parts of the Bible but none of which precludes me from examining it and thinking about it.

First of all, it's not my account-- It's the story told by Moses (sans refrigerator art).

Elohim, elohim, elohim, elohim.......

It is specific and key to the Moses account. He uses that word 32 times in Genesis 1 alone.

Maybe it's important.

 

[ScottA]

They experiment. They play with ideas. They try things--- and so scripture records the process in Genesis, as Moses understood it, little by little, day by day, more complexity is added to the mix. And at some point, one of them makes these little clay figure-- molding and shaping until in some way it bears a resemblance. It becomes a likeness of him-- this one particular elohim. And to the others- he says... Let's all make these little clay figures-- images of ourselves..... and they did.

This (above) is a departure from what is written.

The world and creation are not (biblically) an "experiment", but were established "before the foundation of the world." To the contrary, it is mankind who has experimented.

 

[Mr E]

This (above) is a departure from what is written.

The world and creation are not (biblically) an "experiment", but were established "before the foundation of the world." To the contrary, it is mankind who has experimented.

Yawn... okay Scott. The world and creation were established before the foundation of the world. Got it.

Thanks for straightening that out. Big help.

Good talk.

 

[ScottA]

Yawn... okay Scott. The world and creation were established before the foundation of the world. Got it.

Thanks for straightening that out. Big help.

Good talk.

Don't get me wrong--I think what you are doing is great. It's just that coloring within the lines is rather important.

 

[Mr E]

Don't get me wrong--I think what you are doing is great. It's just that coloring within the lines is rather important.

It's the creative process Scott. The Hebrew word is "bara" and it involves everything that you or I would include in creating anything new. You take exception to "experiment?" Deal with it. It's part of "yatsa" bringing something out-- and it's a progression. One thing leads to another. If you can't get your head around the idea, that's something for you to reckon with I guess.

The work that they rested from after day six means that all the things that they created were a result of the labor they performed.

It wasn't magic.

 

[ScottA]

It's the creative process Scott. The Hebrew word is "bara" and it involves everything that you or I would include in creating anything new. You take exception to "experiment?" Deal with it. It's part of "yatsa" bringing something out-- and it's a progression. One thing leads to another. If you can't get your head around the idea, that's something for you to reckon with I guess.

The work that they rested from after day six means that all the things that they created were a result of the labor they performed.

It wasn't magic.

It would appear there are two treads now off on the wrong track. So, here, I am going to quote myself from the other thread, rather than repeat:

There are a few misunderstandings in that--biblically speaking.​

​

That of assuming our choices are made after experiencing life in this world. They are not. That's not what the world is. On the contrary, the world is not a "go work out your own salvation" order wherein a choice is arrived at. But--like "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world", is a real time manifestation of all that was before, "before the foundation of the world." In other words, this is not actually a walk of discovery, but a walking out of a choice previously made.​

​

Which means our valley of decision was before, and our walking through this valley of the shadow of death, is the result...the sum total of which is the day of the Lord.​

​

Another way to put it, is this life is not our sentence of death, as much as it is the evidence for it made manifest or presented: The charge, the evidence, judgement, and then sentencing.​

​

The specific error you make in your above explanation, is that of assuming there is actually a timeline that exists in eternity. That is a condition of this fallen world, not of God. As for laboring six days, God did that. He labored, not us. Our labor...is in birth. Tilling the ground, is just the dirty part.

And the would-be "progression" is an illusion. No matter how you slice it or divide things up into days and weeks and years, it's an illusion, and simply a means of revealing what "is" in God. Being last to know does not prove things to be otherwise.

 

[O'Darby]

It's the creative process Scott. The Hebrew word is "bara" and it involves everything that you or I would include in creating anything new. You take exception to "experiment?" Deal with it. It's part of "yatsa" bringing something out-- and it's a progression. One thing leads to another. If you can't get your head around the idea, that's something for you to reckon with I guess.

The work that they rested from after day six means that all the things that they created were a result of the labor they performed.

It wasn't magic.

The beauty of a blog is, no one can comment! I even asked Angelina if there was a way to allow comments, and there isn't. So if I want to go off into the ozone of O'Darbyism, no one can hurl Bible verses at me or call me an infidel. Maybe when you complete your thread, you can memorialize it in a blog, sans interruptions.

 

[Mr E]

The beauty of a blog is, no one can comment! I even asked Angelina if there was a way to allow comments, and there isn't. So if I want to go off into the ozone of O'Darbyism, no one can hurl Bible verses at me or call me an infidel. Maybe when you complete your thread, you can memorialize it in a blog, sans interruptions.

You might be on to something!

 

[Mr E]

It would appear there are two treads now off on the wrong track. So, here, I am going to quote myself from the other thread, rather than repeat:

There are a few misunderstandings in that--biblically speaking.​

​

That of assuming our choices are made after experiencing life in this world. They are not. That's not what the world is. On the contrary, the world is not a "go work out your own salvation" order wherein a choice is arrived at. But--like "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world", is a real time manifestation of all that was before, "before the foundation of the world." In other words, this is not actually a walk of discovery, but a walking out of a choice previously made.​

​

Which means our valley of decision was before, and our walking through this valley of the shadow of death, is the result...the sum total of which is the day of the Lord.​

​

Another way to put it, is this life is not our sentence of death, as much as it is the evidence for it made manifest or presented: The charge, the evidence, judgement, and then sentencing.​

​

The specific error you make in your above explanation, is that there a timeline actually exists in eternity. That is a condition of this fallen world, not of God. As for laboring six days, God did that. He labored, not us. Our labor...is in birth. Tilling the ground, is just the dirty part.

And the would-be "progression" is an illusion. No matter how you slice it or divide things up into days and weeks and years, it's an illusion, and simply a means of revealing what "is" in God. Being last to know does not prove things to be otherwise.

Oh good grief. You are dismissed.

Please keep junk in your own backyard.