A very common question...

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,382
6,294
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Here's the thing....even with satan out of the picture, mankind still might have fallen. Look at what will happen during the millennial reign while satan is bound a thousand years.
A more in depth study will reveal that it isn't until the millennium is finished that Satan is unbound. But there are nuances to that period and differences to your post that change the whole dynamic to the whole period.
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,382
6,294
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Not at all. We are tripartite beings. We are a spirit just like God is Spirit [John 4:24][Romans 8:16], we live in a body [2 Corinthians 5:2-4][1 Corinthians 6:19-20] and we have a soul [Romans 2:9][1Peter 1:9]

Hebrews 4:12 says:
2 For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] (spirit), and of joints and marrow. physical [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart.
So we are going down a different path here but doesn't scripture declare that only God is immortal, and being Spirit, therefore the only immortal Spirit?
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,382
6,294
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
A more in depth study will reveal that it isn't until the millennium is finished that Satan is unbound. But there are nuances to that period and differences to your post that change the whole dynamic to the whole period.
Rethinking that, you said that huh. Satan's bound during the millennium. But what you doing understand is that there no-one on earth during that whole time. The saved are in heaven, and the unsaved are dead. It isn't until the wicked are raised to face their final sentencing that Satan is unbound by those circumstances and once again has someone to tempt.
 

Angelina

Prayer Warrior
Staff member
Admin
Feb 4, 2011
37,034
14,947
113
New Zealand
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
If God is so powerful, why can't he do something about natural disasters? And if we are supposed to have free will, why did the Bible say we are slaves to sin and we cannot help ourselves but to sin? And if sin started with Lucifer as the Bible suggests, why didn't God destroy Lucifer before he could make this mess here on earth... In fact didn't God throw Lucifer down to the earth where he became Satan and gave him certain freedoms to tempt men to evil? Surely God could have avoided all this catastrophe?
Hi@Backlit.
We were slaves to sin until Jesus died on the cross for our sins. We are free from sin when we believe that Jesus died as a penalty for our sin and his blood cleanses us from sin.

You know bro, if you look back at our human history from the agrarian society onwards, basically we have made a deep impact on the natural world through our exploitation of it, to a point where natural disasters are occurring more frequently. This I believe, is also mans doing.

The price of Adam and Eve's sin which bought a curse, has been paid for...Lucifer had the same free will as us. He at some point in time became prideful as some suggest but I personally think he did something really bad and God punished him for it. That was before Adam and Eve "garden gate."
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,382
6,294
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Hi@Backlit.
We were slaves to sin until Jesus died on the cross for our sins. We are free from sin when we believe that Jesus died as a penalty for our sin and his blood cleanses us from sin.

You know bro, if you look back at our human history from the agrarian society onwards, basically we have made a deep impact on the natural world through our exploitation of it, to a point where natural disasters are occurring more frequently. This I believe, is also mans doing.

The price of Adam and Eve's sin which bought a curse, has been paid for...Lucifer had the same free will as us. He at some point in time became prideful as some suggest but I personally think he did something really bad and God punished him for it. That was before Adam and Eve and "garden gate."
Agree. But why didn't God destroy Lucifer before Eden?
 

Angelina

Prayer Warrior
Staff member
Admin
Feb 4, 2011
37,034
14,947
113
New Zealand
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
So we are going down a different path here but doesn't scripture declare that only God is immortal, and being Spirit, therefore the only immortal Spirit?

Although we are eternal. Not every part of what makes us human, [body, soul and spirit] is immortal, we can still be destroyed by God because he made us. We are also on the pre-eternal side of the kingdom, not the post eternal side. We are still in our flesh. As long as we are not just believers but followers of Christ, we will be walking on the right path to our eternal homeland.

Matthew 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
Ecclesiastes 12:7 says: then the dust [out of which God made man’s body] will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Heart2Soul

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
11,543
7,583
113
FNQ
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Not at all. We are tripartite beings. We are a spirit just like God is Spirit [John 4:24][Romans 8:16], we live in a body [2 Corinthians 5:2-4][1 Corinthians 6:19-20] and we have a soul [Romans 2:9][1Peter 1:9]

Hebrews 4:12 says:
2 For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] (spirit), and of joints and marrow. physical [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart.
I see you are fixed in your view. I will not argue with you.
 

Angelina

Prayer Warrior
Staff member
Admin
Feb 4, 2011
37,034
14,947
113
New Zealand
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
I'm in Melbourne. Summer just started here this week with temperatures finally over 30. Aaaaah, love it.
I haven't seen 30 degrees for some time here. Been a bit chilly especially for summer....must have to do with climate change brrrrrrr....
 

Heart2Soul

Spiritual Warrior
Staff member
May 10, 2018
9,863
14,508
113
65
Tulsa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not at all. We are tripartite beings. We are a spirit just like God is Spirit [John 4:24][Romans 8:16], we live in a body [2 Corinthians 5:2-4][1 Corinthians 6:19-20] and we have a soul [Romans 2:9][1Peter 1:9]

Hebrews 4:12 says:
2 For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] (spirit), and of joints and marrow. physical [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart.
I agree...one of my research into the 3 earth ages poses that we were a part of the 1st earth age in our spiritual life.
When God spoke to me one night and said past, present and future co-exist I had to meditate on that for a long time and search scripture to support what I heard.
That is when I began to expand my mind to see things totally different than I have ever been taught.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy and TLHKAJ

Angelina

Prayer Warrior
Staff member
Admin
Feb 4, 2011
37,034
14,947
113
New Zealand
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Here's the thing....even with satan out of the picture, mankind still might have fallen. Look at what will happen during the millennial reign while satan is bound a thousand years.
Totally agree with you there @TLHKAJ. God would not have left us all in Eden. At some point Lucifer who was already corrupted by the time he was able to deceive Eve, came for that very purpose. God's ultimate plan was to take us from the garden to the Kingdom and that he has done for those who believe in Jesus by faith.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy and TLHKAJ

Angelina

Prayer Warrior
Staff member
Admin
Feb 4, 2011
37,034
14,947
113
New Zealand
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
I agree...one of my research into the 3 earth ages poses that we were a part of the 1st earth age in our spiritual life.
When God spoke to me one night and said past, present and future co-exist I had to meditate on that for a long time and search scripture to support what I heard.
That is when I began to expand my mind to see things totally different than I have ever been taught.
I would love to discuss your findings in regards to the earth ages sometime although we have had some discussion on this topic in the past here at CyB. Thanks for your input @Heart2Soul
 

DNB

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2019
4,199
1,370
113
Toronto
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I disagree with this. They hunt and kill only that which they require for food or self defense. Not indiscriminate. But I get what you are saying. I would also at that that notion of the atheist... Prove that evil exists... Is it seems to me a fairly modem phenomenon. Officially at least as a 'movement'. I think you will find it's roots in the French revolution.
Yes, for the large part, there is a pragmatism to why and what they kill. But, there are times when its territorial and not always necessary for survival - more than one pride can live together, or a male adult is not obligated to kill all the offspring of the former leader.
Either way, it's indiscriminate in the fact that a moral aspect is not considered in their actions, they will never hesitate to kill, irrespective of the objective, due to their conscience impeding them.

Interesting, that the notion of whether or not evil actually exists, is just a relatively recent controversy? If so, at least the atheists are complying with their own logic - if no God, no moral standard.
But, ultimately, as it is written, '...the fool says in his heart that there is no God...'
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2018
16,761
25,324
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Asked by atheists/agnostics, and even Christians who desire a better understanding of the nature of the God we love and serve, often grapple with the question, and justifiably so, if God is so powerful and loving, why is there so much evil?
I think the video before offers us all an excellent biblical answer.

Just a few minutes into this BL and, it is good. But I put it under my "watch later" in YouTube as it's kinda long :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brakelite

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,382
6,294
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Hi@Backlit.
We were slaves to sin until Jesus died on the cross for our sins. We are free from sin when we believe that Jesus died as a penalty for our sin and his blood cleanses us from sin.

You know bro, if you look back at our human history from the agrarian society onwards, basically we have made a deep impact on the natural world through our exploitation of it, to a point where natural disasters are occurring more frequently. This I believe, is also mans doing.

The price of Adam and Eve's sin which bought a curse, has been paid for...Lucifer had the same free will as us. He at some point in time became prideful as some suggest but I personally think he did something really bad and God punished him for it. That was before Adam and Eve and "garden gate."
But there are still innocent victims being killed in those disasters right? An old Jewish survivor of the holocaust camps said once...
You haven't genuinely understood the love of God until you can stand over a pit of burning children and worship Him anyway.
That's a paraphrase because I couldn't find the original quote. But it is a highly provocative and thought provoking statement. And it's true.
Yes, for the large part, there is a pragmatism to why and what they kill. But, there are times when its territorial and not always necessary for survival - more than one pride can live together, or a male adult is not obligated to kill all the offspring of the former leader.
Either way, it's indiscriminate in the fact that a moral aspect is not considered in their actions, they will never hesitate to kill, irrespective of the objective, due to their conscience impeding them.

Interesting, that the notion of whether or not evil actually exists, is just a relatively recent controversy? If so, at least the atheists are complying with their own logic - if no God, no moral standard.
But, ultimately, as it is written, '...the fool says in his heart that there is no God...'
And yet the reason those animals are killers at all is the direct result of the fall.
 

DNB

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2019
4,199
1,370
113
Toronto
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
And yet the reason those animals are killers at all is the direct result of the fall.
I don't believe so. The fall did not affect the digestive system or metabolism of these creatures, they were carnivores or omnivores from their inception.
 

DNB

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2019
4,199
1,370
113
Toronto
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Death, of any kind, did not exist previous to sin.
But it did, that was how Adam and Eve understood the injunction to refrain from eating from the TOGAE, they comprehended what the repercussions were. Not to mean that the Tree of Life was also in the Garden, which implies both, that the tree was necessary to sustain life, and that the concept of not living perpetually was apparent. Plus, the fall of Lucifer occurred prior to the fall of man, clearly sin and death was in the universe before God imposed His precepts upon Adam & Eve. Even for Adam to eat vegetation, something had to die.
 

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
11,543
7,583
113
FNQ
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
But it did, that was how Adam and Eve understood the injunction to refrain from eating from the TOGAE, they comprehended what the repercussions were. Not to mean that the Tree of Life was also in the Garden, which implies both, that the tree was necessary to sustain life, and that the concept of not living perpetually was apparent. Plus, the fall of Lucifer occurred prior to the fall of man, clearly sin and death was in the universe before God imposed His precepts upon Adam & Eve. Even for Adam to eat vegetation, something had to die.
All that God made was very good by his own estimation. Death is and an enemy and does not qualify as very good. Further, God warned them that life would diminish all the way to cessation as the result of disobedience implying that the life Adam was given was contingent on obedience.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brakelite

DNB

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2019
4,199
1,370
113
Toronto
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
All that God made was very good by his own estimation. Death is and an enemy and does not qualify as very good. Further, God warned them that life would diminish all the way to cessation as the result of disobedience implying that the life Adam was given was contingent on obedience.
The only eternal being in the entire universe is God the Father, and Him alone. Although all that God created was good, they were not immortal, at least not inherently - if God offered eternal life, that's not same as there being no concept of death.
Well, you said it yourself, God pronounced the death penalty upon man if he transgressed God's law - such a notion is meaningless to a being with no cognizance of death.