A Well-Defeated Muslim Apologist

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Please keep in mind that my background is Islamic and I have little knowledge about Christianity as understood by you. So, you might find some answers strange and do not conform with your doctrine, if that happened please note that I am not trying to insult your faith, I highly respect Christianity, serve the Christian community, honour and clean Churches.

That's fine and to be expected. I have been in your world in several capacities over many countries and have a working understanding of the culture, peoples, Islam, some of the dangers so this isn't my first time going down this path.

The first answer: up to my knowledge Jesus (PBUH) is a messenger of God (Allah), a human being and had no sons. All messengers of God (Allah) were given the same message to humanity.

The second answer: in my doctrine there is only one God (Allah) and God (Allah) is the creator of everything.

Thank you, a common understanding.

First, do you have a copy of mainly the New Testament ( whole Bible is great but we need to focus on the Gospel first).

Our INJIL is going to be a bit different.

I recommend a copy of the URDU, BENGALI or INJIL SHARIFF versions to start so let me know what text you have to review and reference please.

I caution you also as you are starting a journey and growing as the son would learn from the father his work- it is good and proper to keep this learning somewhat "confidential" because you are not yet ready to openly use it. There is no cowardice or shame nor is it a reflection of weak faith for an athlete or warrior to train intensely before the event. That is the way I recommend viewing this. Also, as you already know from your former culture, you must learn and grow strong for when you do blossom, the claims of apostasy and others are guaranteed to come.

Let me know what reading material you have available and we can begin.

We will start with the basic gospel in terms of what it is and how Jesus is who he says he is.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

One side issue but very important from a cultural perspective, it is common for other cultures to view "the west" in a very sinful and apostate state. In many cases we are well deserving of those views because as a culture, we ourselves are not proper examples of the God and doctrines we claim we believe in. We have no "moral high ground" to stand upon ourselves.

I point that out because the "standard" is what God and the Lord say ( not how we act) and we will be held accountable for violating those standards as well as everyone else will be. What we do is not "ok" and it will not be overlooked.

The major difference is that "we" as a people are not needed to "defend God" as in slaying his enemies- our God is merciful enough to give us many chances to repent and powerful enough to take care of the "bad" elements at the date and time of his choosing and doesn't need our help to accomplish His will.

 

[Niblo]

Following.

 

[Curtis]

And I will be your obedient servant.

Please keep in mind that my background is Islamic and I have little knowledge about Christianity as understood by you. So, you might find some answers strange and do not conform with your doctrine, if that happened please note that I am not trying to insult your faith, I highly respect Christianity, serve the Christian community, honour and clean Churches.

The first answer: up to my knowledge Jesus (PBUH) is a messenger of God (Allah), a human being and had no sons. All messengers of God (Allah) were given the same message to humanity.

The second answer: in my doctrine there is only one God (Allah) and God (Allah) is the creator of everything.

I can tell you that 700 years before an angel calling himself Gabriel appeared to Mohammed and contradicted the Bible by saying God has no son, the apostles warned that if anyone, including an angel, appears and contradicts what is written by them, he is accursed... for Satan himself appears as an angel of light, to deceive.

 

[Jalal]

That's fine and to be expected. I have been in your world in several capacities over many countries and have a working understanding of the culture, peoples, Islam, some of the dangers so this isn't my first time going down this path.



Thank you, a common understanding.

First, do you have a copy of mainly the New Testament ( whole Bible is great but we need to focus on the Gospel first).

Our INJIL is going to be a bit different.

I recommend a copy of the URDU, BENGALI or INJIL SHARIFF versions to start so let me know what text you have to review and reference please.

I caution you also as you are starting a journey and growing as the son would learn from the father his work- it is good and proper to keep this learning somewhat "confidential" because you are not yet ready to openly use it. There is no cowardice or shame nor is it a reflection of weak faith for an athlete or warrior to train intensely before the event. That is the way I recommend viewing this. Also, as you already know from your former culture, you must learn and grow strong for when you do blossom, the claims of apostasy and others are guaranteed to come.

Let me know what reading material you have available and we can begin.

We will start with the basic gospel in terms of what it is and how Jesus is who he says he is.

Thank you for your advice. Indeed, I will follow what you said.

Up to my basic understanding of the Christian holy books. The Old Testament is the first division of the Bible, which is based primarily upon the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible. The New Testament consists of 27 books:

Four canonical gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John)
The Acts of the Apostles
Fourteen Pauline epistles
Seven general epistles, and
The Book of Revelation.

What book(s) should I have? The second collection? Why are there many books for the word of God? Don't you think that suggests that it was fiddled with an original copy for political advantages during certain eras?

 

[Jalal]

I can tell you that 700 years before an angel calling himself Gabriel appeared to Mohammed and contradicted the Bible by saying God has no son, the apostles warned that if anyone, including an angel, appears and contradicts what is written by them, he is accursed... for Satan himself appears as an angel of light, to deceive.

Perhaps the fiddled-with Bible was not contradicted but corrected. Apostles do not write things by themselves, they write what God says to them through angels. So if they said something like what you said, they are poisoning their source of information.

It could be that the original Bible was fiddled with -- see the many copies of it -- and those who made the changes wanted to block any further changes made to it in future by making a logically contradicting claim that a satan appears in the form of an angel.

The Quran on the other hand, is only one book that documents the message sent from God to an angel to human being (messenger), augments and emphasises the true message that was sent by previous messengers (PBUT) and challenges anyone to corrupt it. In that sense Islam strengthen what is believed to be the original Christianity and the original Judaism.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

What book(s) should I have? The second collection?

I suggest eventually having them all but the 4 gospels to start with. The reason for that is this. (Lets break scripture down into the "essence" of each component and its contribution similar to the internal parts of a car engine)

With a bit of "poetic license" in my descriptors

The OT is the Law and History
The Gospels is the person of Jesus et al
Acts/Epistles are "terms,conditions,specifications"
Revelation is basically the end and beginning

So, starting with the foundation when building the house and simply to avoid confusion, we start with the person of Jesus

Why are there many books for the word of God?

Short answer is that nobody knows. If I were to guess ( which is all it would be), it would be something like this.

There is 1 truth and a zillion plus applications. Man ( as a species) is varied and different in ways from physical, societal, individual thought and so on.

So, given the population and state of the world at the time of the writings combined with the total lack of technology and the fact God wanted the major bases covered- he has several people in numerous situations over time building on various critical points record things knowing at a point they would be collected under His guidance.

That's all that is is a guess as i too have wondered that myself. Thats the best assessment i can come up with.

Don't you think that suggests that it was fiddled with an original copy for political advantages during certain eras?

Well, we do not have what we would call the "certified true original" of any writing or of anything archeological including Scripture. We have "ancient copies" as well as other documents as supporting evidence. Basically we go on the standard of "beyond reasonable doubt" physically and spiritually have the faith that the Living God is powerful enough to preserve the essence of what He meant for us to know.

So, yes, we have both translation errors on the academic side as well as 'fiddling" for political or other advantage. Both exist so we cannot pretend otherwise. It is our duty to exercise due diligence in proper study and leave any remaining question to the Holy Spirit to guide us when we hit a wall in our learning.

Let me know when you get the gospels and we will start

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Jalal,

Welcome to the forum,

If you are here to learn about Christianity.

Just remember that learning about the truth - the truth shall set you free.

May you find and be able to experience that freedom in truth ~ with liberty in Christ Jesus. My encouragement would be to read and study the Gospels, and the letters in the New Testament.

Would also suggest questioning and challenging yourself to what anyone says to you about the bible by going to look and see what the bible says in the whole of scripture and not just bits and pieces.

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, love of God, and fellowship of the holy spirit be with you.

With love in Christ,
Matthew G.

 

[Jalal]

Hello Jalal,

Welcome to the forum,

If you are here to learn about Christianity.

Just remember that learning about the truth - the truth shall set you free.

May you find and be able to experience that freedom in truth ~ with liberty in Christ Jesus. My encouragement would be to read and study the Gospels, and the letters in the New Testament.

Would also suggest questioning and challenging yourself to what anyone says to you about the bible by going to look and see what the bible says in the whole of scripture and not just bits and pieces.

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, love of God, and fellowship of the holy spirit be with you.

With love in Christ,
Matthew G.

Dear Mr Mathew,

Thank you very much for your kind message and advice. I shall certainly read the Bible -- mainly the New Testament -- in great detail and look at it as a whole. When reading religious books such as the Bible and the Quran, it is important to look at it as a whole and also to understand the context of verses. Looking at just bits and pieces will disconnect the reader from the context.

It is an honour for me to serve the Christian community. I have been told that the best way of doing that at my stage is to first demolish what I defended in the past, make this clear, irreversible and rigorous.

Anyone can go to Islamic book stores and buy the famous videotape entitled “The Great Debate between Ahmed Deedat and the well known American Evangelical Jimmy Swaggart”. Muslims usually show this tape to their Christian friends as proof of Islam’s superiority. Although I am not a famous scholar, the case is at least a counter example that Christians can enjoy and discuss with their Muslim friends as a proof of the superiority of Christianity. Connecting the dots, some pointed out that should the debate between Mr Deedat and Rev. Anis Shorrosh (Christian preacher) in South Africa continued, it would have probably ended with a similar result, since it was apparent that Mr Shorrosh was winning, but before the debate was finished the Muslims attacked the stage.

In addition, the case has its own merits:

1. It was I who initiated the debate with the Secularists and Christians.
2. Unlike most encounters where both parties claim victory over each other. I admitted my full decisive defeat and the victory of my opponents which was acknowledged by them. Thus, the results of the debates are objective and complete.
3. It is an ex-devout-Muslim who is going to explain the wrong ways of Islam and tell his story, not an atheist, or someone from another religion or even a new-fledged young Muslim who is newly introduced to the faith of Islam, but someone who studied the faith very well.

To that end, the priority was to present a defeated Muslim apologist on stage by documenting the case study and publishing it on forums, social media platforms, etc, so other free thinkers can learn from.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Anyone can go to Islamic book stores and buy the famous videotape entitled “The Great Debate between Ahmed Deedat and the well known American Evangelical Jimmy Swaggart”. Muslims usually show this tape to their Christian friends as proof of Islam’s superiority.

Well That's probably one of the worst examples of being a Christian that could have been chosen.

 

[Jalal]

Well That's probably one of the worst examples of being a Christian that could have been chosen.

Indeed. Christians in the UK provided simple answers to what I considered non-answerable questions.

I can post links to my documented testimony (on website and social media) here if you wish in case you want to share a counter example (i.e. a defeated Muslim apologist). Please let me know if you or anyone here are interested.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

I can post links to my documented testimony (on website and social media) here if you wish in case you want to share a counter example (i.e. a defeated Muslim apologist). Please let me know if you or anyone here are interested.

Personally, I read yours which is why I was led to initiate a conversation with you.

For me, the purpose of this thread and your initial answers to my questions, the "debate" is complete and this is the logical next step of introducing you to Jesus and Salvation.

 

[Jalal]

Personally, I read yours which is why I was led to initiate a conversation with you.

For me, the purpose of this thread and your initial answers to my questions, the "debate" is complete and this is the logical next step of introducing you to Jesus and Salvation.

That's great. This is the link on the social media in case you want to share:

https://twitter.com/xmuslimuk/status/1421425412924657671

It will also be presented in a more formal way in a published article.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

It will also be presented in a more formal way in a published article.

look forward to reading it

Let me know when you secure the reading material

 

[Jalal]

look forward to reading it

Let me know when you secure the reading material

I will do that. In fact a full detailed version was submitted to a number of PhD students in the Department of Politics and International Studies who are doing research about ex-Muslims. Christian apologists will also publish a version with comparative analysis. They said that although there are many ex-Muslim cases, what makes this case special is the complete setback and failure to fulfil any of my vows to win debates with Secularists and Christians.

I will collect the reading material soon.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

I will collect the reading material soon.

If you have any questions in the mean time, let me know.

I'll start with something of an outline for "discussion" while we are waiting

 

[Jalal]

If you have any questions in the mean time, let me know.

I'll start with something of an outline for "discussion" while we are waiting

Thanks.

The idea of an outline for discussion is a great idea.

 

[Jalal]

Other example:

1. Brother Rachid (born 1971, Morocco) is a Moroccan former Muslim and convert to Christianity whose father is an Imam. He is a Christian apologist and critic of Islam, and hosts a weekly live call-in show on Al Hayat TV where he compares Islam and Christianity. In 2005, he began hosting his own television program on Al Hayat TV comparing the virtues of Christianity over Islam, including 55 taped episodes of Lifting the Veil and 555 live episodes of Daring Questions, ending in 2018, after 12 years which allowed Muslims to call in and ask questions about Christianity, and also featured testimonies from former Muslims who have converted to Christianity.

Source: Brother Rachid - Wikipedia

I think most important Islamic issues and concepts have been touched upon by Brother Rachid. He taught Muslim scholars a good lesson, especially that he came from a very conservative Muslim family.

2. If you haven't already seen this testimony, I think you will enjoy it. This man was a Muslim scholar in the Iranian Islamic revolution. But it turned on him and he fled for his life. He also has some deep theological insights into Islam versus Christianity.

https://j.mp/shayesteh

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

The idea of an outline for discussion is a great idea.

Part 1 is Jesus Himself. This is important because all of Scripture hinges on this point. Its an all or nothing proposition.

If Jesus is not the savior then all things Christian are worthless and merit destruction in the trash bin of time.

If Jesus is in fact the savior, then all other religions, philosophies and everything else are false.

There is no compromise or coexistence or further consideration with any other person or belief. 0 or 1. Life or death. Yes or no.

That's the standard and it applies equally to all.

( this is the focus as very few argue Jesus was not a good/legitimate philosopher, rabbi, teacher, prophet, anointed one and so forth.[and he was all of those things and more] Most religions give Jesus recognition as some form of leader- the defining thing about Jesus is Him being the ONLY Savior of all. He either is or is not.)

The first focus of any study of the Gospels for anyone accepting Jesus initially is to first know that He alone meets the requirements to be the Savior. (otherwise its just a history lesson about some guy who lived a long time ago that had some cool stuff to say)

So step 1 is to establish the criteria Jesus had to meet to be the only Savior of all.

Are you ready to continue

 

[Jalal]

Part 1 is Jesus Himself. This is important because all of Scripture hinges on this point. Its an all or nothing proposition.

If Jesus is not the savior then all things Christian are worthless and merit destruction in the trash bin of time.

If Jesus is in fact the savior, then all other religions, philosophies and everything else are false.

There is no compromise or coexistence or further consideration with any other person or belief. 0 or 1. Life or death. Yes or no.

That's the standard and it applies equally to all.

( this is the focus as very few argue Jesus was not a good/legitimate philosopher, rabbi, teacher, prophet, anointed one and so forth.[and he was all of those things and more] Most religions give Jesus recognition as some form of leader- the defining thing about Jesus is Him being the ONLY Savior of all. He either is or is not.)

The first focus of any study of the Gospels for anyone accepting Jesus initially is to first know that He alone meets the requirements to be the Savior. (otherwise its just a history lesson about some guy who lived a long time ago that had some cool stuff to say)

So step 1 is to establish the criteria Jesus had to meet to be the only Savior of all.

Are you ready to continue

What is the formal definition of a "Savior"? What does it mean formally?