A Well-Defeated Muslim Apologist

[MatthewG]

Dear Mr Mathew,

Thank you very much for your kind message and advice. I shall certainly read the Bible -- mainly the New Testament -- in great detail and look at it as a whole. When reading religious books such as the Bible and the Quran, it is important to look at it as a whole and also to understand the context of verses. Looking at just bits and pieces will disconnect the reader from the context.

It is an honour for me to serve the Christian community. I have been told that the best way of doing that at my stage is to first demolish what I defended in the past, make this clear, irreversible and rigorous.

Anyone can go to Islamic book stores and buy the famous videotape entitled “The Great Debate between Ahmed Deedat and the well known American Evangelical Jimmy Swaggart”. Muslims usually show this tape to their Christian friends as proof of Islam’s superiority. Although I am not a famous scholar, the case is at least a counter example that Christians can enjoy and discuss with their Muslim friends as a proof of the superiority of Christianity. Connecting the dots, some pointed out that should the debate between Mr Deedat and Rev. Anis Shorrosh (Christian preacher) in South Africa continued, it would have probably ended with a similar result, since it was apparent that Mr Shorrosh was winning, but before the debate was finished the Muslims attacked the stage.

In addition, the case has its own merits:

1. It was I who initiated the debate with the Secularists and Christians.
2. Unlike most encounters where both parties claim victory over each other. I admitted my full decisive defeat and the victory of my opponents which was acknowledged by them. Thus, the results of the debates are objective and complete.
3. It is an ex-devout-Muslim who is going to explain the wrong ways of Islam and tell his story, not an atheist, or someone from another religion or even a new-fledged young Muslim who is newly introduced to the faith of Islam, but someone who studied the faith very well.

To that end, the priority was to present a defeated Muslim apologist on stage by documenting the case study and publishing it on forums, social media platforms, etc, so other free thinkers can learn from.

There is very interesting to have gotten to read. In my walk of Faith believe that God desires all people to come to the knowledge of Truth about the Lord Jesus Christ, and see if anyone will accept the free gift of Gods grace, becoming right before God because of the coming of Christ the bible explains that because of Christ righteousness and a person placing faith in Jesus they are made right with God and are given the holy spirit but it is a person choice if they are going to believe it or not.

Am from the mindset of having love for God first and foremost, and loving others as yourself. It is mentioned in the bible in the NLT somewhere in Psalm it reads that to love oneself is to gain wisdom.

Am thankful that you are here good to have you, personally do not use social media except Tiktok and Youtube here. Thank you for sharing too.

With love in Christ,
Matthew G.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

What is the formal definition of a "Savior"? What does it mean formally?

Mainly in the NT Greek its "sotare" or sozo depending on usage. It translates into "keep safe"- "rescue"- "redeem"( purchase from) "preserve from" ( as in suffering, injury and things like that)

So, that begs the question of "saving" from what exactly. At a point in the future, God (YHWH) is going to bring judgement on both the world and the hosts of fallen angels and judge them according to His law and those found guilty of sin will be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed in the second death. There are no exceptions or options. This is a final event in the history of this world.

The only way to escape this judgement is to be sinless and perfect in God's eyes.

Nothing that exists can meet this standard due to sin from the beginning.

Only an innocent blood sacrifice can atone for sin and achieve forgiveness. ( there's a bit more to that but that comes later in relation to this conversation) Remember, this is an outline with a lot of detail left out for the moment.

Jesus' death,burial and physical resurrection on the cross because he was sinless was the final sacrifice required because His was enough for all the world for all sin for all time as both God and man. ( another subject with much detail left out for the purpose of this conversation)

The only "salvation" (saving or rescue from) the lake of fire and the second death is understanding that Jesus is the ONLY savior because He is the ONLY person who met the requirements of a savior in all of existence and then accepting His sacrifice for your individual sin. (this is the regeneration/renewal process to be discussed later as well)

This goes far beyond being a teacher, prophet or other divine messenger- this is the ultimate state and question. Jesus is or is not the only way of salvation of the lost. There is no middle ground, alternative or option 2.

So, "salvation" ( the state of being saved from judgment) comes from the "savior" who is Jesus alone.

I suggest stopping there for the moment to make sure there are no questions on this so far.

Please let me know if there are because it will be of no benefit to skip to the next without a full understanding of each step at least of the basic information.

 

[Jalal]

There is very interesting to have gotten to read. In my walk of Faith believe that God desires all people to come to the knowledge of Truth about the Lord Jesus Christ, and see if anyone will accept the free gift of Gods grace, becoming right before God because of the coming of Christ the bible explains that because of Christ righteousness and a person placing faith in Jesus they are made right with God and are given the holy spirit but it is a person choice if they are going to believe it or not.

Am from the mindset of having love for God first and foremost, and loving others as yourself. It is mentioned in the bible in the NLT somewhere in Psalm it reads that to love oneself is to gain wisdom.

Am thankful that you are here good to have you, personally do not use social media except Tiktok and Youtube here. Thank you for sharing too.

With love in Christ,
Matthew G.

Thank you Mr Matthew for your kind message.

A full testimony was published on exmuslim UK here:

Jalal | Why I'm an Exmuslim Testimonial

It was I who initiated the debate with the Secularists and Christians. Planned for that around 20 years and vowed to win and use contemporary technological tools ( Internet, electronic forums, social media platforms, etc) to document and spread my victorious results after winning the debates. I wanted to be a "hero" of Islam, i.e. a famous Muslim apologist.

The opposite exactly happened! and the case of my defeat is now well documented and spread. I never thought or even imagined that I will one day clean the Church that I refused to look at!

 

[Jalal]

Mainly in the NT Greek its "sotare" or sozo depending on usage. It translates into "keep safe"- "rescue"- "redeem"( purchase from) "preserve from" ( as in suffering, injury and things like that)

So, that begs the question of "saving" from what exactly. At a point in the future, God (YHWH) is going to bring judgement on both the world and the hosts of fallen angels and judge them according to His law and those found guilty of sin will be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed in the second death. There are no exceptions or options. This is a final event in the history of this world.

The only way to escape this judgement is to be sinless and perfect in God's eyes.

Nothing that exists can meet this standard due to sin from the beginning.

Only an innocent blood sacrifice can atone for sin and achieve forgiveness. ( there's a bit more to that but that comes later in relation to this conversation) Remember, this is an outline with a lot of detail left out for the moment.

Jesus' death,burial and physical resurrection on the cross because he was sinless was the final sacrifice required because His was enough for all the world for all sin for all time as both God and man. ( another subject with much detail left out for the purpose of this conversation)

The only "salvation" (saving or rescue from) the lake of fire and the second death is understanding that Jesus is the ONLY savior because He is the ONLY person who met the requirements of a savior in all of existence and then accepting His sacrifice for your individual sin. (this is the regeneration/renewal process to be discussed later as well)

This goes far beyond being a teacher, prophet or other divine messenger- this is the ultimate state and question. Jesus is or is not the only way of salvation of the lost. There is no middle ground, alternative or option 2.

So, "salvation" ( the state of being saved from judgment) comes from the "savior" who is Jesus alone.

I suggest stopping there for the moment to make sure there are no questions on this so far.

Please let me know if there are because it will be of no benefit to skip to the next without a full understanding of each step at least of the basic information.

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation and information.

What is wrong of saying that the savior(s) for each and every person on the day of judgement are his/her deeds: if they are good then he/she will be in a good position and if they are not good then he/she will not be in a good position in front of God?

In case he/she was faithful but with little good deeds, he/she can first ask God for forgiveness then seek help from an intercessor (a pure person i.e., any of God's messengers, because they are all pure).

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

What is wrong of saying that the savior(s) for each and every person on the day of judgement are his/her deeds: if they are good then he/she will be in a good position and if they are not good then he/she will not be in a good position in front of God?

In case he/she was faithful but with little good deeds, he/she can first ask God for forgiveness then seek help from an intercessor (a pure person i.e., any of God's messengers, because they are all pure).

Very good questions and you are not the first one to ask any of them so let me answer them in a sequence building on each answer.

God's standard of "Good" ( obedience, purity, performance and others) is simple. Absolute 100% PERFECTION 100% of the time.

That standard is unbending because God is perfect and he created everything originally perfect.

Sin ( by definition means to fall short of a goal or objective whether it be deliberate or accidental or an act of commission or omission) entered creation through Satan originally then eventually to Adam. So now "sin" is a part of everything and what we know today is a direct descendant of the beginning so we inherit the sin nature then sin ourselves.

So, 99.9999999999999999999999999+% "good' is EVIL in God's eyes. Even the "good' we try to do of our own is as filthy rags (literally translated in context as used toilet paper) in God's sight.

So, no effort or attempt by man will ever be 'good' because even 1 sin on 1 point misses the standard of perfection. If one part of the law is broken, every man is convicted of the whole law. There is only guilt or innocence and only 1 punishment (death).. There is no plea bargain, sentence reduction, parole or second chance for anyone. Man is appointed to live then die once then face judgment.

A lot of people want to believe (or convince themselves of their own goodness) that somehow God is going to judge them against another person of the overall mankind score. If that were the case then every person might have a chance depending on their total overall score.

That's not the case though. God will judge every part of creation against the sole standard of absolute perfection and anything not perfect will be destroyed in the lake of fire. (up to and including the earth itself and everything in it- sin doesn't just apply to living beings)

No amount of our "good" will erase or compensate for our sin.

If there was any possible way for salvation, then Jesus was never needed to be the sacrifice for all sin.

Lets digest that and answer any questions you may have before we continue.

 

[Jalal]

Very good questions and you are not the first one to ask any of them so let me answer them in a sequence building on each answer.

God's standard of "Good" ( obedience, purity, performance and others) is simple. Absolute 100% PERFECTION 100% of the time.

That standard is unbending because God is perfect and he created everything originally perfect.

Sin ( by definition means to fall short of a goal or objective whether it be deliberate or accidental or an act of commission or omission) entered creation through Satan originally then eventually to Adam. So now "sin" is a part of everything and what we know today is a direct descendant of the beginning so we inherit the sin nature then sin ourselves.

So, 99.9999999999999999999999999+% "good' is EVIL in God's eyes. Even the "good' we try to do of our own is as filthy rags (literally translated in context as used toilet paper) in God's sight.

So, no effort or attempt by man will ever be 'good' because even 1 sin on 1 point misses the standard of perfection. If one part of the law is broken, every man is convicted of the whole law. There is only guilt or innocence and only 1 punishment (death).. There is no plea bargain, sentence reduction, parole or second chance for anyone. Man is appointed to live then die once then face judgment.

A lot of people want to believe (or convince themselves of their own goodness) that somehow God is going to judge them against another person of the overall mankind score. If that were the case then every person might have a chance depending on their total overall score.

That's not the case though. God will judge every part of creation against the sole standard of absolute perfection and anything not perfect will be destroyed in the lake of fire. (up to and including the earth itself and everything in it- sin doesn't just apply to living beings)

No amount of our "good" will erase or compensate for our sin.

If there was any possible way for salvation, then Jesus was never needed to be the sacrifice for all sin.

Lets digest that and answer any questions you may have before we continue.

That's well understood, in fact, because God is super perfect, God understands the capabilities of human beings and other creatures created by him and do expect you to be very perfect, God is forgiving and merciful and does not need anyone to tell him about that.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

God is forgiving and merciful and does not need anyone to tell him about that.

Yes to both however God is also very specific in how His forgiveness and Mercy can be obtained and that is only through His Son Jesus and following His way.

God laid down the plan for salvation at the foundation and there is only one way for that plan to be administered to the individual.

Any further items before we move to the next part about Jesus

 

[Jalal]

Yes to both however God is also very specific in how His forgiveness and Mercy can be obtained and that is only through His Son Jesus and following His way.

God laid down the plan for salvation at the foundation and there is only one way for that plan to be administered to the individual.

Any further items before we move to the next part about Jesus

Why should it be only through certain person, why don't creatures ask God for forgiveness and mercy directly?

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Why should it be only through certain person, why don't creatures ask God for forgiveness and mercy directly?

Good question and one asked a lot.

God in His perfection and hatred for sin will not allow sin or the sinner even to have audience with Him. Even the prayers of the unsaved are an abomination unto him. There is no "asking" of Him because he wont even give them audience except through His Son Jesus.

Even if they were allowed to ask, there is no forgiveness of sin without an innocent blood sacrifice for each and every one.

Either way, forgiveness except through Jesus is impossible

Anything else? Please let me know

 

[Jalal]

Good question and one asked a lot.

God in His perfection and hatred for sin will not allow sin or the sinner even to have audience with Him. Even the prayers of the unsaved are an abomination unto him. There is no "asking" of Him because he wont even give them audience except through His Son Jesus.

Even if they were allowed to ask, there is no forgiveness of sin without an innocent blood sacrifice for each and every one.

Either way, forgiveness except through Jesus is impossible

Anything else? Please let me know

You can ask God for forgiveness no matter what sins you have committed provided that you are attempting a true and faithful repent, and trying your best not to return to that sin. Only people who insist and insist on mistakes will be punished.
Will a mother put her child in fire if he/she committed a bad deed? God is more merciful to people than a mother to her child.

You can ask God for forgiveness anywhere, any time, without a proxy. He is your creator why shall you talk to some one else?
A child who committed a mistake will talk to his mother about it and ask her not to tell anyone else about it.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

You can ask God for forgiveness no matter what sins you have committed provided that you are attempting a true and faithful repent, and trying your best not to return to that sin.

Many people hold that view and ask every day and are sincere about it. The answer is always no. God never bends His will or His Standard for anyone.

Only people who insist and insist on mistakes will be punished.

Not with God, all those who are not written in the Lambs book of Life will be destroyed.. There are no exceptions.

Will a mother put her child in fire if he/she committed a bad deed? God is more merciful to people than a mother to her child.

God did not spare His only Son who died a slow torturous death as the sacrifice for Sin for those who go to the Son Jesus. That was the only "mercy" that the world is going to ever see. Those who go to the Son will receive forgiveness and eternal life- those who do not will be destroyed in the second death. There is no third option.

You can ask God for forgiveness anywhere, any time, without a proxy. He is your creator why shall you talk to some one else?
A child who committed a mistake will talk to his mother about it and ask her not to tell anyone else about it.

As we said, there is nothing prohibiting anyone from approaching God directly but the ONLY way to get audience with God is through Jesus the Son so all of those prayers will go unheard.

That's tough for a lot of people to understand and most don't want to hear or accept it but God is the ultimate example of literal zero tolerance. Salvation and forgiveness is either done His way exactly through Jesus or its destruction in the second death.

Jalal, you need to fully understand this critical point because there is no deviation or work around with God in spite of what people want or wish was true.

Let this sink in for a bit and give me any other questions or comments you may have so we can work them out together.

 

[Jalal]

Many people hold that view and ask every day and are sincere about it. The answer is always no. God never bends His will or His Standard for anyone.



Not with God, all those who are not written in the Lambs book of Life will be destroyed.. There are no exceptions.



God did not spare His only Son who died a slow torturous death as the sacrifice for Sin for those who go to the Son Jesus. That was the only "mercy" that the world is going to ever see. Those who go to the Son will receive forgiveness and eternal life- those who do not will be destroyed in the second death. There is no third option.



As we said, there is nothing prohibiting anyone from approaching God directly but the ONLY way to get audience with God is through Jesus the Son so all of those prayers will go unheard.

That's tough for a lot of people to understand and most don't want to hear or accept it but God is the ultimate example of literal zero tolerance. Salvation and forgiveness is either done His way exactly through Jesus or its destruction in the second death.

Jalal, you need to fully understand this critical point because there is no deviation or work around with God in spite of what people want or wish was true.

Let this sink in for a bit and give me any other questions or comments you may have so we can work them out together.

I still find it very difficult to convince myself that:

1. God has a son.
2. There is a proxy between God and what God created.

Hypothetically, what if Jesus (PBUH) adopted a similar argument in the day of judgement? What if he rejected what people said about him being the son of God? what if he looked at other messengers of God and said: "They corrupted our original message and insisted on it!" What would be our situation in that case!?

It is common sense that God has no father, mother and sons. I totally understand that this goes against what you believe and I am not intending to insult your faith. As I said, I totally respect Christians, their faith and rituals.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

I still find it very difficult to convince myself that:

1. God has a son.
2. There is a proxy between God and what God created.

You are not the first person to have difficulty with some of these concepts- I myself struggled with a few for years so I understand completely. None of us were there then and we must depend on writings that we accept on a standard of "beyond reasonable doubt".

God and Jesus both say God has a son so that goes back to the original point that Jesus either is the Son of God or Christianity in all of its legitimate variants is false. We take that on the strength of Scripture. ( as every other does)

On the proxy, being US Army and dealing with a chain-of-command all of my career where I had to go through various positions prior to going before "the man" myself, I don't have an issue with that so I must ask you to please explain what part of that concept troubles you and I will explain it.

Hypothetically, what if Jesus (PBUH) adopted a similar argument in the day of judgement? What if he rejected what people said about him being the son of God? what if he looked at other messengers of God and said: "They corrupted our original message and insisted on it!" What would be our situation in that case!?

I strongly recommend avoiding all 'hypothetical" scenarios because first they are factually unanswerable ( and almost always devolve into a never ending argument that produces nothing as no side can ever "prove' a point or "disprove" another). Second, if Scripture is true and Jesus is the Son of God then the "hypothetical" will never happen so doesn't need to be discussed- if Scripture is false and Jesus was just some "dude" with a good idea then the "hypothetical" situation isn't worth the time or effort it would take to work through the scenario in the first place.

It is common sense that God has no father, mother and sons. I totally understand that this goes against what you believe and I am not intending to insult your faith. As I said, I totally respect Christians, their faith and rituals.

Even common sense has to give way to factual reality. Its not about personal "belief" because God isn't who and what He is because we "believe"- He is who he is regardless of what we "believe". It is now incumbent upon us to make sure our "belief" aligns with the "facts" in evidence or our "belief" is in vain.

There's no insult here- I have been on your side of the fence and i also respect other beliefs ( and have a working knowledge of several having studied them also)

Let me know if there is anything else on these points we need to cover. This is all critically important.

 

[Jalal]

You are not the first person to have difficulty with some of these concepts- I myself struggled with a few for years so I understand completely. None of us were there then and we must depend on writings that we accept on a standard of "beyond reasonable doubt".

God and Jesus both say God has a son so that goes back to the original point that Jesus either is the Son of God or Christianity in all of its legitimate variants is false. We take that on the strength of Scripture. ( as every other does)

On the proxy, being US Army and dealing with a chain-of-command all of my career where I had to go through various positions prior to going before "the man" myself, I don't have an issue with that so I must ask you to please explain what part of that concept troubles you and I will explain it.



I strongly recommend avoiding all 'hypothetical" scenarios because first they are factually unanswerable ( and almost always devolve into a never ending argument that produces nothing as no side can ever "prove' a point or "disprove" another). Second, if Scripture is true and Jesus is the Son of God then the "hypothetical" will never happen so doesn't need to be discussed- if Scripture is false and Jesus was just some "dude" with a good idea then the "hypothetical" situation isn't worth the time or effort it would take to work through the scenario in the first place.



Even common sense has to give way to factual reality. Its not about personal "belief" because God isn't who and what He is because we "believe"- He is who he is regardless of what we "believe". It is now incumbent upon us to make sure our "belief" aligns with the "facts" in evidence or our "belief" is in vain.

There's no insult here- I have been on your side of the fence and i also respect other beliefs ( and have a working knowledge of several having studied them also)

Let me know if there is anything else on these points we need to cover. This is all critically important.

Thanks for your understanding and for your detailed reply.

I totally, agree with that "hypothetical" scenarios are factually unanswerable. However, even the existence of God cannot be proved, in fact, if the existence of God is proved (e.g. mathematical proof or scientific fact) then the concept of faith demolishes. Therefore we "believe" in God and his existence, and this what distinguishes us (whether Christians, Jewish, or Muslims) from non-believers. Christians, Jewish, and Muslims have more common ideas than controversial ideas. In Islam it is believed that

Islam = Original Christianity = Original Judaism

Because nothing can be proved in this life regarding the aforementioned issue(s), non-believers can always make an argument that counters the argument of the believers and this will continue until the day of judgement, where everything will finally be proved.

If God has a son, then why not have more than one son, a father, or a mother, or even a family? It is more logical to accept that God has none of them rather than having all or any of the mentioned family members. Even if you are talking about a different definition of a "son", one could argue that there could be a different or special definition of a "father" or a "mother", this will lead to no where.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

However, even the existence of God cannot be proved, in fact, if the existence of God is proved (e.g. mathematical proof or scientific fact) then the concept of faith demolishes.

Actually no. This comes from me being an Engineer and Scientist by profession ( in the physical sciences, mechanical and electrical). Contrary to popular belief and some of my "quantum loving' counterparts- this universe could not possibly exist as it would be a violation of the zeroth and first 3 laws. ( thats why the concept of 'intelligent design' was invented because even the atheist physical scientists realized their own "science' proved the case for a "god" because it would be IMPOSSIBLE without one)

When i deal with one, i deliberately refuse to use scripture ( they don't believe it anyway)- I simply use hard science.

That being said (notice i used "little" god up there)- this proves there is a "god" ( defined as some form of entity well above all physical laws as we know them in this universe who created this universe as well as our physical laws)

That changes the question now to "Will the REAL "god" please stand up".

In this context- The God of Scripture either IS the "real" God or he simply is just another fable to be forgotten. ( that also applies to any other "god" who wants to challenge YHWH f for the title) so yes we can "know' and "prove" "god" exists.

In terms of faith, "faith" actually means to "know" ( as in like we know when we drop something- gravity will make it fall down)- it is not a synonym for any "generic belief". That's a common misunderstanding.

So, when we have 'faith" in God- we actually "know' in God. That's what Jesus meant about faith the size of a mustard seed.

Christians, Jewish, and Muslims have more common ideas than controversial ideas. In Islam it is believed that

Islam = Original Christianity = Original Judaism

Yes I am familiar and there is a great deal of historical truth the commonality there but for the theme of what we are discussing- I would like to come back to this entire subject line a little bit in the future as it is its own subject and i don't want to overwhelm the main subject right now.

If God has a son, then why not have more than one son, a father, or a mother, or even a family? It is more logical to accept that God has none of them rather than having all or any of the mentioned family members. Even if you are talking about a different definition of a "son", one could argue that there could be a different or special definition of a "father" or a "mother", this will lead to no where.

Yes, all of those points are indeed logical and make perfect sense. It goes back to the baseline point. If YHWH and Scripture is true then all of those points ( logic and all) are just meaningless conjecture- If YHWH and scripture is false then they don't matter and we need to find this "real god" (if one even exists) and do what he/she/it says.

So are there any other points to address on this part of the subject before we move to the historical mixture you referenced above?

 

[Addy]

**** not your average sheep dog ****

 

[Jalal]

Actually no. This comes from me being an Engineer and Scientist by profession ( in the physical sciences, mechanical and electrical). Contrary to popular belief and some of my "quantum loving' counterparts- this universe could not possibly exist as it would be a violation of the zeroth and first 3 laws. ( thats why the concept of 'intelligent design' was invented because even the atheist physical scientists realized their own "science' proved the case for a "god" because it would be IMPOSSIBLE without one)

When i deal with one, i deliberately refuse to use scripture ( they don't believe it anyway)- I simply use hard science.

That being said (notice i used "little" god up there)- this proves there is a "god" ( defined as some form of entity well above all physical laws as we know them in this universe who created this universe as well as our physical laws)

That changes the question now to "Will the REAL "god" please stand up".

In this context- The God of Scripture either IS the "real" God or he simply is just another fable to be forgotten. ( that also applies to any other "god" who wants to challenge YHWH f for the title) so yes we can "know' and "prove" "god" exists.

In terms of faith, "faith" actually means to "know" ( as in like we know when we drop something- gravity will make it fall down)- it is not a synonym for any "generic belief". That's a common misunderstanding.

So, when we have 'faith" in God- we actually "know' in God. That's what Jesus meant about faith the size of a mustard seed.



Yes I am familiar and there is a great deal of historical truth the commonality there but for the theme of what we are discussing- I would like to come back to this entire subject line a little bit in the future as it is its own subject and i don't want to overwhelm the main subject right now.



Yes, all of those points are indeed logical and make perfect sense. It goes back to the baseline point. If YHWH and Scripture is true then all of those points ( logic and all) are just meaningless conjecture- If YHWH and scripture is false then they don't matter and we need to find this "real god" (if one even exists) and do what he/she/it says.

So are there any other points to address on this part of the subject before we move to the historical mixture you referenced above?

You can easily see that there is a creator. For example: why the human being has two lungs not three or four etc? Why one heart not two or other number? Why one stomach not other number? Why the shape of the hand is created in a way that you can form a grip etc. Why specifically the camel -- which lives in the desert -- has more than one stomach!? This is what is called "System Dimensioning" in Engineering, it is a true and optimal design done by a super designer/engineer. It is the creator.

But we could not see him. There is a famous saying in Islam that defines belief:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you."

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

You can easily see that there is a creator. For example: why the human being has two lungs not three or four etc? Why one heart not two or other number? Why one stomach not other number? Why the shape of the hand is created in a way that you can form a grip etc. Why specifically the camel -- which lives in the desert -- has more than one stomach!? This is what is called "System Dimensioning" in Engineering, it is a true and optimal design done by a super designer/engineer. It is the creator.

Yes, God being the "Lead Engineer" simply designed us to function the way He wanted us to function (in His Image)- had he wanted us to be walking carrots with wings- we would be.

One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you."

That's not different with YHWH. God defines what worship of Him must consist of and what Faith in Him is. There is an entire set of writings that outline both law and standards of conduct.

It goes back to the beginning point. If "God" is "God" then we adopt to His will, not the other way around. If "God' is not the living and true God then He is best forgotten.

Good points you bring up, any other items to discuss before we move forward?

 

[Jalal]

Just an example of a counter argument that can be developed in a subtle way. Non-believers can make an argument against the existence of the creator based on evolution theory, random elements and claim that a creature develops in an incremental way and adapts to its environment as time passes. That is, these events are function of time and sort of randomness. This is logically poor, analogously imagining a smart phone developed in the desert from sand silica and other minerals over the years! Despite that, to be objective we put all theories on table for discussion.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Just an example of a counter argument that can be developed in a subtle way. Non-believers can make an argument against the existence of the creator based on evolution theory, random elements and claim that a creature develops in an incremental way and adapts to its environment as time passes. That is, these events are function of time and sort of randomness. This is logically poor, analogously imagining a smart phone developed in the desert from sand silica and other minerals over the years! Despite that, to be objective we put all theories on table for discussion.

That's the easiest argument to destroy because physics obliterates it. The problem is that many "believers" come to a scientific based academic debate with nothing but their 'faith and belief" and walk away with their @$$ in their hands whining about it instead of meeting false science ( evolution) with legitimate science by doing their proper research and preparation.

Science is not the enemy of God, God created science to give glory and to prove Himself. It does. The problem isn't with the science but with the believer who does not understand the science before getting into the discussion.

See in a nutshell ( remember, this is a forum post and not a dissertation so much information is omitted for brevity)

"Evolution" (by the scientific definition) is in fact true and correct. God created every species as a species and gave it the ability to adapt to various environments and reproduce after its own. We would express this as "A" evolving (changing or adapting) to A2 or A3 and so forth. This happens everywhere all the time. The KEY POINT is that at no time does it cease to be a variant of "A". ( it never becomes "B") That's where 'evolution" becomes "transmutation" and "lead" doesn't change to 'gold" in nature. What evolutionists often try to do is "selectively switch" the definition of evolution with transmutation and build a straw man argument. Just call their hand on that and they fall apart.

We have fossil records of species evolving and adapting within the species. We do NOT have ANY "transitional" evidence of the "missing link" between the billy goat and the large mouth bass.( or any other species) ("A" never ceases to be "A" and transforms magically into "B")

Even if by some miracle it did happen once- it would have to happen TWICE ( need a male and female or another for asexual reproduction) so it would require 2 exact miracles to 'accidentally" create 2 compatible opposites that could reproduce. ( get the evolutionists to quote the odds of that happening randomly and watch their facial expressions)

Are there any other points we need to address before we continue?