Abomination of Desolation

[Alethos]

It is my sincere concern that the "future antichrist and his apostate church " will inevitably cause its supporters to reject Jesus when he comes again.

Who may that be? Mother of Harlots?...and her many daughters?

A "strong delusion" has been sent among the people today "to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). It is my hope that as many as possible can welcome the reign of the Lord Jesus Christ when he comes to rule on earth during the Kingdom of God.

I am reluctant to name those denominations who fall under 2 Thess 2:11-12 out of respect for the forums rules.

Alethos

Sorry you did ask for some scriptures plural.

2 Tim 4:2-3 They will turn their ears away from the truth - who are the they?
1 Corinthians 1:10,12,13 - Divisions and whether Christ can be divided?
1 Tim 4:1-3 Some will depart from the faith
2 Thess 2:1-3 the falling away

You could also consider Acts 15 Judaizing element which continued into Christianity. Gnosticism 1 John 1&2 and Caesar Worship in Rev 13.

Alethos

 

[revturmoil]

Is the 'falling away' a defection from truth? Why would a defection from truth 'within the church' create the conditions that would reveal the man of sin and cause people to accept him?

So the big question is, "what makes people think that this apostasy has anything to do with the church?" The word apostasy is used in relation to the man of sin...not the church! And what makes people think apostasy has something to do with heresy, backsliding, or being lukewarm?

The only people who define the word apostasy as heresy or backslidding are Protestant's who have long held the view that the Catholic church is heretical and backslidden. In Strong's where one interpretation is "a defection from truth," they warn that those definitions are the opinion of the interpreter. In other words. The word apostasy in no way implies a defection from truth though the Protestant's would like us to believe it does. Their opinion was influenced by Rome's horrible past. For this reason Christianity has adopted an incorrect definition of apostasy. The word apostasy has the same meaning across all religions today...except Christianity because of these well meaning 'prophecy experts. The Catholic church has influenced Protestant Christians to believe that it's a defection from truth. There's no reason for the word apostasy to have a different meaning when applied to christians or the church than it does elsewhere. Christian's have been misled to believe these things for so long it's hard for them to break out of it. It's no different than the experts teaching us about a global dictator and one world religion. They've taught it for so long that they just can't believe the "prophecy experts" could be wrong.

I think it's a shame that the "prophecy experts" link the church into this apostasy and call the harlot that sits upon the beast...."the apostate church!" Why would people want to convert to Christianity when the 'experts' within it slander it to the point of associating it with the harlot and accepting the man of sin!

The rebellion or revolt that's taking place in the Arab world could very well be the apostasy because the word does mean a political or religious revolt. This apostasy which is taking place as we speak in the Arab world will result in a power vacumn and create the perfect conditions for the revelation of the man of sin. The common people in the Arab world want political and religious unification. They want one currency and less borders.

RJP posted this on a thread...

Apostasy - (noun)
1. The act of abandoning a party or cause.
2. The state of having rejected your religious beliefs, political party, cause or sports team in favor of opposing beliefs, causes or teams.
3. A defection, renunciation, disaffiliation, abandonment or revolt from a previous association.
4. (Islamic definition) Rejection in word or deed of one's former religion.
5. (Christian definition) To fall away from the truth.

I told him I agree with all the above except #5.

#5 is the opinion of Christian's. A defection from truth is not the definition of the word. Why would it mean one thing for the church and something else for everyone else?

This is what Bakers Dictionary of Theology has to say's this about apostasy.

"A word of increasing interest found twice in the NT. (Acts 21:21; 2Thes. 2:3 It comes from the Greek apostasia a late form of apostasis, originally to desert a post or station in life. It is used of Plutarch of political revolt and is found in the OT in the sense of revolt against the Lord. (Josh. 22:22) Antiochus Epiphanes enforced an apostasia from Judaism to Hellenism (1 Macc 2:15)

In the AV it is translated "falling away" in relation to the man of sin or antichrist. In this sense the thought is of religious revolt. Cremer states that apostasia is used in the absolute sense of "passing over to unbelief," thus a dissolution of the "union of God subsisting through Christ." Amdt adds rebellion or abandonment in the religious sense. On the nature of apostasy there are lengthy articles in both the JewEnc and the CE developing an extensive doctrine of apostasy.

In the NT. 2 Thes 2:3 is part of a prophetic passage of apocalyptic character. The falling away invites conjecture about whom and from what. The event seems future and thus related to antichrist. The implication is that the apostates will welcome the man of sin."


Notice that Cremer says that apostasy is to pass over to unbelief and a dissolution of the "union of God subsisting through Christ."
That's not heresy or backsliding, that's a complete abandonement of your religion.

Entire kingdoms have gone into apostasy when it's ruler or king called for one. And it was always to change the "national religion."

Here is a list of apostates that have gone from one religion to another.
Notice that apostates go from one thing to another. You can't remain within the same religion and become apostate.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Apostasy (Greek απο, apo, "away, apart", στασις, stasis, "standing") is the formal renunciation of one's religion.

Noted apostates

This is a list of notable persons that have followed a religion and then publicly abandoned or publicly criticized it and attracted notable attention by this defection, or had a notable influence on society with their defection; or if the person has been notably been referred to as an apostate by other groups or people regardless whether the person accepts this label or not.

Ambedkar an ex-Hindu who became a Buddhist

Karen Armstrong ex-Roman Catholic nun who became an atheist

Julian the Apostate ex-Christian and Roman emperor

Aurelius Augustine (Augustine of Hippo) Former adherent of Manicheism who converted to Christianity and criticized Manicheism in his book called Confessions, though generally not labelled as an apostate because the term is originally used for people who leave Christianity, not for people who convert to it

Marjoe Gortner ex-Christian

Ayaan Hirsi Ali ex-Muslim

Maria Monk Sometimes considered an apostate, though little evidence exists that she ever belonged to the religion she supposedly fled

Taslima Nasrin born in a Muslim family who became an atheist

Friedrich Nietzsche grew up in a Lutheran family and became a confirmed Christian in his teens but later became a staunch atheist

Salman Rushdie Accused of being an apostate of Islam by Ruhollah Khomeini due to the publication of his book The Satanic Verses

Baruch Spinoza excommunicated from the Jewish community

Ibn Warraq ex-Muslim
_______________________________________________________________________

I would like to add Walid Shoebat. A former Muslim and Palestinian terrorist converted to Christianity.

 

[michaelvpardo]

　



The denial that God is Sovereign isn't idolatry. That's just plain old unbelief. Self empowerment isn't idolatry either and and how in the world would that be the greatest threat. I've had some people say that Muslim's don't bow down to idols. Are they oblivious to the fact that Muslim's bow toward a rock in Mecca Saudi Arabia 5 times a day? Is it a threat to the world that Arab/Islamic regimes want nothing less than the complete destruction of Israel? Does it matter that Islam wants to dominate the world through demographics and terrorism? Does it matter that in the last 100 years Muslim's have murdered more people than those of the holocaust! And you consider self-empowerment the greatest form of idolatry and the greatest threat?

　

　

　

Unbelief isn't idolatry, but believing that you can do things as God does them, by the power of your own will and for your own purposes certainly is. To do this is to place yourself upon the throne. Men have been doing this since the fall of man, but the abomination of desolation is about setting up an idol in the house of God, and not by unbelievers, but by those who are called by His name. I don't deny that Mohammed was both a false prophet and anti-christ, but our enemies are not flesh and blood, but spiritual wickedness in high places. Mohammed was a deceiver, but he himself was deceived. The spirit of this age is our enemy more than the son of perdition who will rise as the culmination of that spirit of rebellion. The anti-christ will rise as a deceiver, but also as deceived. Honestly, who would want to be empowered to rule the world, knowing that his rule would only be for 7 years and would end in eternal punishment? Self empowerment is about denying God, His omnipotence, His omnipresence, His wisdom, His lordship, His reign over heaven and earth. If you've somehow missed this in the Book, you should probably take another look.
Mohammed brought a sword against all men in the name of a God whom he never knew. If you look at the books of the law, you'll find that God says that He would send false prophets to test the hearts of his people. The scripture also says that the anti-christ will be empowered to the extent that the saints will fall into his hands. Who do you think gave the anti-christ his power? The scripture tells us that he receives his power from the dragon, so this is true, but where did the dragon get his power? There is no power and authority that did not ultimately come from God and while God is not the creator of evil, He has allowed it according to His purpose. If the saints are allowed to fall at the hands of the anti-christ, wasn't this to perfect them and to fill up the measure of the anti-christ's guilt? Jesus died to fulfill God's purpose. His saints do also (we are given as lambs to the slaughter,) and this is not for evil, but for our ultimate good and God's glory. Jesus asked a question about His return, "I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?'' NKJ Luke 18:8

I ask you honestly, do you think that Jesus didn't know the answer to this question, or was He warning His disciples? In the gospels you find Jesus rebuking people for lack of faith, do you realize that these rebukes are nearly all aimed at His disciples and even His Apostles? Islam is a threat, not just to Christianity, but to humanity, yet muslims do hear the gospel and many are saved. Do not fear men that may kill the body, but fear Him who has power to cast the soul into eternal destruction. We have these warnings for a reason. God makes no idle comments.

"Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what shall be the end of these things?'' And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. "Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand." NKJ Daniel 12:7-10

 

[revturmoil]

Unbelief isn't idolatry, but believing that you can do things as God does them, by the power of your own will and for your own purposes certainly is. To do this is to place yourself upon the throne. Men have been doing this since the fall of man,

I suppose you can link idolatry with someone being obsessed with themselves, but that has absolutely nothing to do with apostasy, the form of worship or persecution mentioned in the book of Revelation. The greatest idol worshipers today are Muslim's who bow toward Mecca 5 times a day.

but the abomination of desolation is about setting up an idol in the house of God, and not by unbelievers, but by those who are called by His name.

Are you telling me that Christian's are going to set up the image of the beast and be the ones to worship the beast! The only reason anybody can believe this is to believe the deceptive works of others. How do you come up with this?!

WOW! Talk about self-deception! You need to take another look at this whole thing! Is it asking too much for you to quote one verse that say's Christian's will set up the image and worship the beast? Did you forget that only them that are not written in the book of life will worship the beast!

Revelation 13:8 　And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 　If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Revelation 17:8 　The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The abomination is the image and worship of the beast. The desolation part is to lay waste i.e. devastation. Anti-christ has 2 meanings. Worshiping the image of the beast is the "instead of Christ" part of anti-christ, and desolation is the "against Christ" part of anti-christ. He demands worship and destroys Christian's, Jews, and all infidels and destroys his own land. The form of worship mentioned in the book of Revelation is about identical to Islam's method. It is to lay prostrate with your head to the floor. One method of persecution in the book of Revelation is beheading and that's Islam's prefered method.

I don't deny that Mohammed was both a false prophet and anti-christ, but our enemies are not flesh and blood, but spiritual wickedness in high places.

That's the enemy of the Christian walk. Who or what is the enemy of Israel and the world in the end? Self-empowerment!????

Islam and the Arab's have always been Israel's enemy, and Islam the enemy of all non Muslim's.

Ephesians 6:12 　For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Mohammed was a deceiver, but he himself was deceived. The spirit of this age is our enemy more than the son of perdition who will rise as the culmination of that spirit of rebellion. The anti-christ will rise as a deceiver, but also as deceived. Honestly, who would want to be empowered to rule the world, knowing that his rule would only be for 7 years and would end in eternal punishment? Self empowerment is about denying God, His omnipotence, His omnipresence, His wisdom, His lordship, His reign over heaven and earth. If you've somehow missed this in the Book, you should probably take another look.

The spirit of this age is our personnal enemy. It's not the enemy that will lead us to Armageddon! Nobody will rule this world because the reign of the man of sin will be limited to ten nations. Do you think the United States will say to one man, "Come on in! Here's our military, here's our nuclear arsenal, and here's our country, it's all yours now! How ludicrous and foolish.

I don't know how you've become obsessed with this self-empowerment thing and how you associate it with the abomination worship and the anti-christ. Are you of the thinking that the religion of the beast is a "New Age type of religion," just like many of the experts believe? No religion denies Christ more than Islam. And I have taken many 'other looks' but this one almost takes the cake! You sir need to be more objective, familiarize yourself with scripture, do your own homework, and stop listening to the million dollar prophecy experts!

Mohammed brought a sword against all men in the name of a God whom he never knew. If you look at the books of the law, you'll find that God says that He would send false prophets to test the hearts of his people. The scripture also says that the anti-christ will be empowered to the extent that the saints will fall into his hands. Who do you think gave the anti-christ his power? The scripture tells us that he receives his power from the dragon, so this is true, but where did the dragon get his power? There is no power and authority that did not ultimately come from God and while God is not the creator of evil, He has allowed it according to His purpose. If the saints are allowed to fall at the hands of the anti-christ, wasn't this to perfect them and to fill up the measure of the anti-christ's guilt? Jesus died to fulfill God's purpose. His saints do also (we are given as lambs to the slaughter,) and this is not for evil, but for our ultimate good and God's glory. Jesus asked a question about His return, "I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?'' NKJ Luke 18:8

It's a shame that you like so many others attribute the evils of man and Satan to that of Christian's and the church.

Show me a verse that the saints will fall into the hands of the anti-christ!

If I read you right, your telling me that because the dragon gives his power and authority to the man of sin, that means Christian's would accept him! WOW!

You might not be aware but God did create evil!

Isaiah 45:7 　I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I don't know why you would quote the parable of Luke 18:8 and associate it with any of your assumptions.

I ask you honestly, do you think that Jesus didn't know the answer to this question, or was He warning His disciples? In the gospels you find Jesus rebuking people for lack of faith, do you realize that these rebukes are nearly all aimed at His disciples and even His Apostles?

What does that have to do with accepting the beast, his religion, or worshipping his image???

Islam is a threat, not just to Christianity, but to humanity, yet muslims do hear the gospel and many are saved. Do not fear men that may kill the body, but fear Him who has power to cast the soul into eternal destruction. We have these warnings for a reason. God makes no idle comments.

God makes no idle comments??? Maybe it's more the way you're looking at these things.
I just don't understand your thinking and how you rationalize these things. You've quoted about nothing for scripture to support this self-empowerment theory of yours.

I say it's scripturally baseless and unfounded. And you need to have a more open mind.

 

[revturmoil]

It is my sincere concern that the "future antichrist and his apostate church " will inevitably cause its supporters to reject Jesus when he comes again.

Who may that be? Mother of Harlots?...and her many daughters?

A "strong delusion" has been sent among the people today "to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). It is my hope that as many as possible can welcome the reign of the Lord Jesus Christ when he comes to rule on earth during the Kingdom of God.

I am reluctant to name those denominations who fall under 2 Thess 2:11-12 out of respect for the forums rules.

Alethos

How do you guy's come up with the idea that the church, which you call 'the apostate church' has anything to do with the man of sin!!! Prove to me that it does!

 

[rockytopva]

How do you guy's come up with the idea that the church, which you call 'the apostate church' has anything to do with the man of sin!!! Prove to me that it does!

Where in the bible do we find the word "apostate church" to begin with?

Where in the bible do we find the word "apostate?"

I can't find it!

 

[Alethos]

Where in the bible do we find the word "apostate church" to begin with?

Where in the bible do we find the word "apostate?"

I can't find it!

I hope you have ears to hear? or eyes to see?

2 Thess 2:3

DON'T LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU: "Exapateo" = to greatly deceive. Sin ?(Rom 7:11; 1 Corinthians 3:18) Jesus similarly warned his followers against misinformation as to the time of his appearing (Mat 24:5; Mark 13:5). Jesus confirms the apostacy will be in his name i.e Christian NOT Arab as some perport.

IN ANY WAY: That is, by claiming spirit-gift powers, by a word-of-mouth report, or by letter purporting to be from us ( 2 Thess 2:2).

FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL THE REBELLION OCCURS:

REBELLION: Gr "apostasia" -- a defection, rebellion, revolt, or apostasy. Or the verb form "depart" in 1 Tim 4:1. The presence of the definite article suggests as the correct translation "the apostasy" is something which Paul had already discussed with the Thessalonians.

FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL THE APOSTACY OCCURS

I hope the red text helps?

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

I hope you have ears to hear? or eyes to see?

2 Thess 2:3

DON'T LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU: "Exapateo" = to greatly deceive. Sin ?(Rom 7:11; 1 Corinthians 3:18) Jesus similarly warned his followers against misinformation as to the time of his appearing (Mat 24:5; Mark 13:5). Jesus confirms the apostacy will be in his name i.e Christian NOT Arab as some perport.

IN ANY WAY: That is, by claiming spirit-gift powers, by a word-of-mouth report, or by letter purporting to be from us ( 2 Thess 2:2).

FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL THE REBELLION OCCURS:

REBELLION: Gr "apostasia" -- a defection, rebellion, revolt, or apostasy. Or the verb form "depart" in 1 Tim 4:1. The presence of the definite article suggests as the correct translation "the apostasy" is something which Paul had already discussed with the Thessalonians.

FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL THE APOSTACY OCCURS

I hope the red text helps?

Alethos

2Th 1: The Son of God

Revealed from heaven (2Thess 1:7)

In the glory of his might (2Thess 1:9)

With the mighty angels (2Thess 1:7)

In flaming fire (2Thess 1:7).

Inflicting vengeance upon those who

(1) do not know God,

(2) do not obey the gospel, and

(3) refuse to love the truth (2 Thess 1:8).

To be glorified in his saints and to be admired in all them that believe (2 Thess 1:10).


2Th 2: The Man of Sin


Pretended signs and wonders (2Thess 2:9);

Revealed in apostasy.

In power (2Thess 2:9)

and wicked deception (2Thess 2:9).

With the activity of "Satan - Pagan" (2Thess 2:9).

Pleasure in unrighteousness (2Thess 2:12).

Opposes, exalts self (2Thess 2:4);

"taking his seat in the temple of God" pretends to be a god, (2Thess 2:4).

 

[veteran]

SEVENTY SEVENS Dan 9:24

Do you understand the Seventy seven-year periods as a total of 490 years?

We know when this was given Jerusalem was suffering under the hand of Gentiles for 70 years (v 2), so the Jews and Jerusalem would suffer under the hand of Gentiles for 490 years (based on 70x7). "Your people" and "your holy city" are obvious references to the Jews and Jerusalem (cf verse Dan 9:7, Dan 9:11, Dan 9:20). They have nothing to do with the church, which is a distinct from Israel (ie, 1 Co 10:32).

So it appears God had decreed these years. And it is here that I wish to explore you understanding of future 2nd advent fulfilment.

The destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 was defined in the following events: (my understanding)

(1) This event will end Jewish rebellion ("transgression") against Him.

(2) This event will end human failure to obey God ("sin").
(3) This event will provide time for atonement that will cover human wickedness.
(4) This event will inaugurate a new society in which righteousness prevails.
(5) It will bring in the fulfillment of the vision that God has for the earth ("vision and prophecy").
(6) It will result in the anointing of the most holy, probably a reference to a new and more glorious permanent "temple" literal & spiritual.

From my understanding of Daniel 9 God has already achieved some of these goals (in bold), specifically the third one (with the death and resurrection of Christ which is clear), and to some extent the first two (through the mediatorial work of the resurrected Christ). However, the other goals have not yet seen fulfilment. Therefore it is reasonable to look for a future fulfilment from our perspective in history. And this will surely be fulfilled in the very near future, with the last great tribulations, leading on the return of Christ to redeem His people Israel.

Thank you in advance

Alethos

Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
(KJV)

"thy people" - it's important to understand Bible history about Israel, because the majority of Israelites were scattered abroad and never did return to the holy land. And they made up the 'majority' of Israelites when they were scattered. Many of those migrated to the west and have become Christians. Also, a remnant of Judah was scattered among them and have become Christians. So that "thy people" must include them also, and that's why that prophecy is definitely about Christ's Church too, and not just whoever is living in Jerusalem.

"to finish the transgression" - that's specifically about their transgression and the coming transgression in Jerusalem for the last days when false messiah appears there and sets up the abomination idol. That's what will cause the great "falling away" which Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2, as he showed it's connected with a false one setting himself up as God in the temple in Jerusalem in the last days. Our Lord Jesus has not covered that sin. So that transgression for Jerusalem is not yet, showing that isn't yet fulfilled. Moreover, the majority of Judah in Jerusalem today still refuse Christ Jesus, so their sins are not covered. That also means the making of an end of sins isn't yet complete today either. The big show is still just around the corner in our near future.

All those things in that verse won't be completed until Christ's second coming.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Michael V. Pardo said,



Would it be asking too much for somebody to prove to me that the apostasy will have anything to do with the church?

Sure. The scripture plainly states that no one seeks God. It also states that all have turned aside. See Psalm 14 and Romans 3:12.
The scripture also says that men not only resist following God, but are at enmity with Him. See the first half of Romans chapter 8, Ephesians 2:1-3, John 1:10-13, etc. (these references are by no means exhaustive.)

The word "apostasy" is not in the Bible, but in this context refers to a great turning away from God. Well, you simply can't turn away from someone unless you're already facing the person. You can't turn away from God unless you're already following him. The phrase "turn away" can be found many times in the scriptures if you have an electronic copy and a very simple search engine. It sometimes refers to a physical turning away from, but typically refers to an action of the heart and is itself an action of the will. People who don't know God can't turn away from Him, because they've never been following Him and have never known Him. The only way to know God is through Jesus Christ and by the power of the Holy Spirit. "You must be born again." The implication of this in the context of the end time events is that the people who turn away from God are not those who've received the mark of the beast, but those who have known Him, e.g. the Church.
Consider that many people followed Jesus as His disciples, but couldn't receive what He spoke to them about eating His flesh and drinking His blood: From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. NKJ John 6:66 (the chapter and verse numbering is not inspired, but gives you a clue as to what was believed by whoever it was that came up with the breakdown.)

At that time the Apostles stayed with Him, but on the last night, all of them deserted Him as well. Note that all these turned away, but Jesus Himself said,

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. NKJ John 17:12

People in the church get very caught up with the verses about the mark of the beast and what it might be, largely because they don't want to become guilty by receiving it. The big problem with this thinking is that it misunderstands the grace of God. You've done absolutely nothing to receive it. Salvation is the work of God and God alone. If you've really received it, having done nothing for it, do you really believe that you can do something to lose it? Those who are His at His coming will show that they are His by their perseverance, but they have persevered because they are His, and this was never their doing but His.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. NKJ Philippians 2:12-13

There isn't any verse that says the Church will turn away from God during the time of the Great Apostasy, but if you know of some other people that have been following God and have known Him by some other means than through faith in His son, then by all means, prove it. I realize that there are tares among the wheat, wolves among the sheep, birds nesting in the branches, etc., but none of these have ever seen God or could be said to be following Him. If you want to bring up Israel, you have to understand that the Jews know of God, but even they don't follow Him or know Him, unless they've received Him in the person of His Son. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, and there is no other. Amen.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I say it's scripturally baseless and unfounded. And you need to have a more open mind.



[/quote]

You're reasoning from interpretation and not from scripture. You've assumed that the statue of the beast is the abomination of desolation, but the scripture doesn't say this. In the book of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzer had a golden statue of himself set up and commanded that everyone bow down and worship the statue whenever his musicians played their instruments to trumpet his glory. There may actually be fourth temple built by men, and someone may set up an image of the dragon in it, but this doesn't need to happen for the events in scripture to be fulfilled. The new Testament identifies a number of things as idolatry that don't involve the setting up of an image. If all scripture had to be understood litterally, then we would all need to eat a piece of Jesus' flesh and drink some of His blood to be saved. Even if this event happens, it is only a shadow of the spiritual truth that it represents.

Oh, and here's some scripture about the saints:
31 "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. 32 "Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33 "And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34 "Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. 35 "And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purge them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time. 36 "Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. NKJ Daniel 11:31-36

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?'' 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. NKJ Revelation 6:10-11

And it was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. NKJ Revelation 13:7

These verses don't say anything about the saints setting up an idol to worship in a temple and neither did I. What the scripture does say, however, is that the holy people will loose their power, and that the saints will be overcome by the beast. Those that fall in the battle, do so to be purged and made white, the implication being that they have something to be purged of and are not pure. You really shouldn't interpret what people are writing in the forums as though it were scripture. English is a fairly precise language, as far as they go, but words and expressions typically have multiple meanings and how you receive those words says more about the perception of your heart than about the belief of the person that's written them. The phrase "to fall into the hands of" means just that, to be overcome.
Have you travelled about and visited different churches and noticed that many pews are empty or nearly so? Have you noticed that there are mega churches, built like auditoriums that are packed to the gills on Sundays where preachers are giving feel good and prosperity messages. Do you honestly believe that all the attendees have never known God? Jeshurun grew fat and kicked. Even people in the 1st century church fell away to strange doctrines. If this weren't so, there wouldn't be cause to urge people in the church to contend for the faith and to hold to the gospel? The epistles are full of rebukes aimed at the Church. Jesus, Himself, in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, rebukes the Churches and threatens them with tribulation if they do not repent. These things are said very plainly in the scripture, but we are slow to believe all that the scripture says. Unbelief is very basic to our nature and must be overcome. We are not saved by the Church. We are the Church and need to be saved by God, through faith in Jesus Christ. Those that fall in the battle have been overcome in the flesh, but they still are not defeated. Jesus has overcome for all of us and He is our victory. The Church will prevail, because He has prevailed. Death has no threat, because He has overcome death. Amen and Amen.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I say it's scripturally baseless and unfounded. And you need to have a more open mind.



[/quote]

You're reasoning from interpretation and not from scripture. You've assumed that the statue of the beast is the abomination of desolation, but the scripture doesn't say this. In the book of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzer had a golden statue of himself set up and commanded that everyone bow down and worship the statue whenever his musicians played their instruments to trumpet his glory. There may actually be fourth temple built by men, and someone may set up an image of the dragon in it, but this doesn't need to happen for the events in scripture to be fulfilled. The new Testament identifies a number of things as idolatry that don't involve the setting up of an image. If all scripture had to be understood litterally, then we would all need to eat a piece of Jesus' flesh and drink some of His blood to be saved. Even if this event happens, it is only a shadow of the spiritual truth that it represents.

Oh, and here's some scripture about the saints:
31 "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. 32 "Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33 "And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34 "Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. 35 "And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purge them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time. 36 "Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. NKJ Daniel 11:31-36

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?'' 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. NKJ Revelation 6:10-11

And it was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. NKJ Revelation 13:7

These verses don't say anything about the saints setting up an idol to worship in a temple and neither did I. What the scripture does say, however, is that the holy people will loose their power, and that the saints will be overcome by the beast. Those that fall in the battle, do so to be purged and made white, the implication being that they have something to be purged of and are not pure. You really shouldn't interpret what people are writing in the forums as though it were scripture. English is a fairly precise language, as far as they go, but words and expressions typically have multiple meanings and how you receive those words says more about the perception of your heart than about the belief of the person that's written them. The phrase "to fall into the hands of" means just that, to be overcome.
Have you travelled about and visited different churches and noticed that many pews are empty or nearly so? Have you noticed that there are mega churches, built like auditoriums that are packed to the gills on Sundays where preachers are giving feel good and prosperity messages. Do you honestly believe that all the attendees have never known God? Jeshurun grew fat and kicked. Even people in the 1st century church fell away to strange doctrines. If this weren't so, there wouldn't be cause to urge people in the church to contend for the faith and to hold to the gospel? The epistles are full of rebukes aimed at the Church. Jesus, Himself, in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, rebukes the Churches and threatens them with tribulation if they do not repent. These things are said very plainly in the scripture, but we are slow to believe all that the scripture says. Unbelief is very basic to our nature and must be overcome. We are not saved by the Church. We are the Church and need to be saved by God, through faith in Jesus Christ. Those that fall in the battle have been overcome in the flesh, but they still are not defeated. Jesus has overcome for all of us and He is our victory. The Church will prevail, because He has prevailed. Death has no threat, because He has overcome death. Amen and Amen.

 

[revturmoil]

You're reasoning from interpretation and not from scripture.

How do you come up with that? I define the words by the lexicon's and look at other resources. Was I the only one that was taught that method? Maybe I was since I was fortunate there were only 12 of us studying under one person.

You've assumed that the statue of the beast is the abomination of desolation, but the scripture doesn't say this.

I wish you guys could at least get these things right! That's your presumption!

I didn't say that. The iron and clay does describe the people from which the beast originates. I never said anything that the abomination was the statue and if I did it was only in reference to the iron and clay.

YOU SAID,

Oh, and here's some scripture about the saints:

These verses don't say anything about the saints setting up an idol to worship in a temple and neither did I.

First you misquote or presume what I say. Now you forgot what you said!　

Well how do you explain your statement...

but the abomination of desolation is about setting up an idol in the house of God, and not by unbelievers, but by those who are called by His name.

And I told you that you left the desolation part out of it.

You really shouldn't interpret what people are writing in the forums as though it were scripture. English is a fairly precise language, as far as they go, but words and expressions typically have multiple meanings and how you receive those words says more about the perception of your heart than about the belief of the person that's written them. The phrase "to fall into the hands of" means just that, to be overcome.

English isn't a precise language to interprete something written in Greek and Hebrew. Your wondering about my heart when you can't quote me or yourself right!!!

Just deal with the issues never mind you perception of how I read and believe about people on the forum.
Pay more attention to yourself because this is so far off base that it's not worth it. You go off into all sorts of things that just have nothing to do with the abomination of desolation.

Have you travelled about and visited different churches and noticed that many pews are empty or nearly so? Have you noticed that there are mega churches, built like auditoriums that are packed to the gills on Sundays where preachers are giving feel good and prosperity messages. Do you honestly believe that all the attendees have never known God? Jeshurun grew fat and kicked. Even people in the 1st century church fell away to strange doctrines. If this weren't so, there wouldn't be cause to urge people in the church to contend for the faith and to hold to the gospel?

What your doing is attributing self empowerment and narcissism to the abomination of desolation. I'm not in disagreement with you that the church isn't in good condition. But I say you have a complete misunderstanding of the abomination of desolation.

Don't twist what I say and pay attention to what you say!

 

[Alethos]

Sure. The scripture plainly states that no one seeks God. It also states that all have turned aside. See Psalm 14 and Romans 3:12.
The scripture also says that men not only resist following God, but are at enmity with Him. See the first half of Romans chapter 8, Ephesians 2:1-3, John 1:10-13, etc. (these references are by no means exhaustive.)

The word "apostasy" is not in the Bible, but in this context refers to a great turning away from God. Well, you simply can't turn away from someone unless you're already facing the person. You can't turn away from God unless you're already following him. The phrase "turn away" can be found many times in the scriptures if you have an electronic copy and a very simple search engine. It sometimes refers to a physical turning away from, but typically refers to an action of the heart and is itself an action of the will. People who don't know God can't turn away from Him, because they've never been following Him and have never known Him. The only way to know God is through Jesus Christ and by the power of the Holy Spirit. "You must be born again." The implication of this in the context of the end time events is that the people who turn away from God are not those who've received the mark of the beast, but those who have known Him, e.g. the Church.
Consider that many people followed Jesus as His disciples, but couldn't receive what He spoke to them about eating His flesh and drinking His blood: From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. NKJ John 6:66 (the chapter and verse numbering is not inspired, but gives you a clue as to what was believed by whoever it was that came up with the breakdown.)

At that time the Apostles stayed with Him, but on the last night, all of them deserted Him as well. Note that all these turned away, but Jesus Himself said,

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. NKJ John 17:12

People in the church get very caught up with the verses about the mark of the beast and what it might be, largely because they don't want to become guilty by receiving it. The big problem with this thinking is that it misunderstands the grace of God. You've done absolutely nothing to receive it. Salvation is the work of God and God alone. If you've really received it, having done nothing for it, do you really believe that you can do something to lose it? Those who are His at His coming will show that they are His by their perseverance, but they have persevered because they are His, and this was never their doing but His.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. NKJ Philippians 2:12-13

There isn't any verse that says the Church will turn away from God during the time of the Great Apostasy, but if you know of some other people that have been following God and have known Him by some other means than through faith in His son, then by all means, prove it. I realize that there are tares among the wheat, wolves among the sheep, birds nesting in the branches, etc., but none of these have ever seen God or could be said to be following Him. If you want to bring up Israel, you have to understand that the Jews know of God, but even they don't follow Him or know Him, unless they've received Him in the person of His Son. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, and there is no other. Amen.

A very well written and balanced approach to the subject.

kaoticprofit, I am curious as to why you hold on so tightly to your position on these matters. If I presented the sum total of Pauls warnings to the first century believers about false prophets and false teachings and how they would originate in the house of God. It appears (to me) you would still refute Paul’s warnings.

Where does all this stem from? You appear very zealous for the Church, which is admirable, but has this zeal blinded you from the reality that error has and would always lead many away from God.

Consider Cain you killed his brother was he in the house of God? Yes and thrust out.

Consider Ishmael whose Father is Abraham who represents Islam today, they believe he was the chosen seed, but you and I know Isaac was the promised seed! And Sarah knowing Ishmael would eventually kill Isaac thrust them out of their family. The two could not live together!

Consider Noah when the church of God married the sons of men – they mingled with Cains linage and again an apostasy caused the whole inhabitable to be destroyed bar eight who were saved by water.

Consider Jacob & Esau – Esau wanted to kill his brother.

Consider all the men who betray David even his son Absalom. And they all died

Consider Judas one of the twelve...and so many more all revealing the seed of the serpent would hate the seed of woman.

Consider the Pharisees who removed the key of salvation from their people. They will see Abraham, Isaac & Jacob sitting in the Kingdom age and they themselves thrust out.

These are to name but a few...I could mention so many more who were in the house of God and were thrust out because of unbelief or killed off because of their threat to the true message of salvation.

Or do you believe in the unity of all Churches and that his coming he will except all wrong doctrine and that they all will enter into glory regardless of what they believe?

Jesus didn’t come the first time to bring peace but a sword, and the second time he comes will be as the Lion of the tribe of Judah and he will roar like you have never heard a lion roaring.

Are you ready for his judgements upon Christendom Astray?

Who is the mother of Harlots? and who are her children? Who is Religious Babylon? Who is the man child?

Whoever you think they are judgement is coming upon the Mother and her children...

I hope for all our sakes we are ready.

Alethos.

 

[revturmoil]

N

A very well written and balanced approach to the subject.

kaoticprofit, I am curious as to why you hold on so tightly to your position on these matters. If I presented the sum total of Pauls warnings to the first century believers about false prophets and false teachings and how they would originate in the house of God. It appears (to me) you would still refute Paul’s warnings.

Where does all this stem from? You appear very zealous for the Church, which is admirable, but has this zeal blinded you from the reality that error has and would always lead many away from God.

Consider Cain you killed his brother was he in the house of God? Yes and thrust out.

Consider Ishmael whose Father is Abraham who represents Islam today, they believe he was the chosen seed, but you and I know Isaac was the promised seed! And Sarah knowing Ishmael would eventually kill Isaac thrust them out of their family. The two could not live together!

Consider Noah when the church of God married the sons of men – they mingled with Cains linage and again an apostasy caused the whole inhabitable to be destroyed bar eight who were saved by water.

Consider Jacob & Esau – Esau wanted to kill his brother.

Consider all the men who betray David even his son Absalom. And they all died

Consider Judas one of the twelve...and so many more all revealing the seed of the serpent would hate the seed of woman.

Consider the Pharisees who removed the key of salvation from their people. They will see Abraham, Isaac & Jacob sitting in the Kingdom age and they themselves thrust out.

These are to name but a few...I could mention so many more who were in the house of God and were thrust out because of unbelief or killed off because of their threat to the true message of salvation.

Or do you believe in the unity of all Churches and that his coming he will except all wrong doctrine and that they all will enter into glory regardless of what they believe?

Jesus didn’t come the first time to bring peace but a sword, and the second time he comes will be as the Lion of the tribe of Judah and he will roar like you have never heard a lion roaring.

Are you ready for his judgements upon Christendom Astray?

Who is the mother of Harlots? and who are her children? Who is Religious Babylon? Who is the man child?

Whoever you think they are judgement is coming upon the Mother and her children...

I hope for all our sakes we are ready.

Alethos.

You or Mr. Vardo haven't answered my question. Which is...

Quote one verse that proves the church will have anything to do with the man of sin or the abomination of desolation? Neither of you have confronted this question. Every verse you've quoted doesn't apply or answer that question.

Prove to me the church has something to do with the Apostasy! Not one person has been able to answer. You sem to think you've fully presented your case but you haven't!

 

[veteran]

1 Tim 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
(KJV)

2 Tim 3:1-7
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(KJV)

2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(KJV)

Matt 24:4-5
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in My name, saying, "I am Christ"; and shall deceive many.
(KJV)

Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
(KJV)

2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(KJV)

2 Pet 2:1-3
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
(KJV)

1Thes 5:1-7
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
(KJV)

Matt 25:10-13
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us."
12 But he answered and said, "Verily I say unto you, I know you not."
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
(KJV)

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
(KJV)

All that Biblical proof, and I hadn't even gotten to Paul's warning yet in 2 Thess.2 about the "falling away" to a false messiah in place of Christ Jesus.

 

[revturmoil]

1 Tim 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
(KJV)

2 Tim 3:1-7
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(KJV)

2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(KJV)

Matt 24:4-5
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in My name, saying, "I am Christ"; and shall deceive many.
(KJV)

Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
(KJV)

2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(KJV)

2 Pet 2:1-3
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
(KJV)

1Thes 5:1-7
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
(KJV)

Matt 25:10-13
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us."
12 But he answered and said, "Verily I say unto you, I know you not."
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
(KJV)

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
(KJV)

All that Biblical proof, and I hadn't even gotten to Paul's warning yet in 2 Thess.2 about the "falling away" to a false messiah in place of Christ Jesus.

You have not provided me one bit of proof that the apostasy of 2 Thes 2 has anything to do with the church. The verses you quoted warn us about false prophets, false teachings and false christ. But for some reason you fail to prove to me how it is attributed to the anti-christ or associated with the 'apostasy!"

 

[Alethos]

1 Tim 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
(KJV)

2 Tim 3:1-7
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(KJV)

2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(KJV)

Matt 24:4-5
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in My name, saying, "I am Christ"; and shall deceive many.
(KJV)

Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
(KJV)

2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(KJV)

2 Pet 2:1-3
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
(KJV)

1Thes 5:1-7
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
(KJV)

Matt 25:10-13
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us."
12 But he answered and said, "Verily I say unto you, I know you not."
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
(KJV)

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
(KJV)

All that Biblical proof, and I hadn't even gotten to Paul's warning yet in 2 Thess.2 about the "falling away" to a false messiah in place of Christ Jesus.

Proof indeed.

I struggle to see how Islam will ever preach another Jesus?
How can Islam say to Christ "Lord Lord" I did this and I did that?
I struggle to see how Islam will ever say "I am the Christ" and represent themselves falsely
How can Islam be persuaded from the simplicity which is in Christ? When they reject him as the son?

Alethos

 

[revturmoil]

Proof indeed.

I struggle to see how Islam will ever preach another Jesus?
How can Islam say to Christ "Lord Lord" I did this and I did that?
I struggle to see how Islam will ever say "I am the Christ" and represent themselves falsely
How can Islam be persuaded from the simplicity which is in Christ? When they reject him as the son?

Alethos

You just don't understand what a false christ is. The man of sin or his false prophet will not profess Jesus in any way.
Proof of what? That he can copy and paste scripture? Where's the proof than any of those scriptures apply to the apostasy? Get the question??? Or should I ask it again!!!

 

[tomwebster]

Proof of what? That he can copy and paste scripture? Where's the proof than any of those scriptures apply to the apostasy? Get the question??? Or should I ask it again!!!

The answer to you questions have been given many times on this forum, but you would not want to hear them. Apostasy as used in Thes can not be commited by a non-Christian, look up the way the word is used, the context it is used in.