Abortion and deceit

[Moonstone Eterni]

Although most here consider abortion a sin, no one has come up with a single probibition against abortion in Scripture. When I threw out the challenge that the Bible not only approves of abortion in a number of places, no one seems to be able to find it. So I will throw out one for you, in which the Law not only approves but demands abortion:

The demand for abortion goes all the way back to the Books of the Law where an abortion drug was administered to an adultress:

"But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.” Numbers 5:20-22

In this instance, is God demanding the "baby" as some of you call it, although the Bible calls it a foetus, that God would murder an innocent "baby" who had done no wrong, because the mother sinned??? This is in fact what the anti-abortionists are declaring: that God is a murderer!!

Can anyone find other instances where God slew thousands of rebellious people with abortions??

Okay, fair point. But let’s be fair to my view as well: Do you know what the Mosaic Law says about brides who try to pass themselves off as virgins when they aren’t? Look up Deuteronomy 20:21-22. Here is what it says: “If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.”

Today there aren’t any Christian husbands-to-be who kill their brides-to-be for not having a hymen. Nobody these days follows the Mosaic Law, not even Jewish fundamentalists like the Haredi. By the same token, why would the scripture you quoted apply to modern times? The answer is it doesn’t.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Numbers 5:20-31
[20]But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
[21]Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
[22]And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
[23]And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
[24]And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
[25]Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
[26]And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
[27]And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
[28]And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
[29]This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
[30]Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
[31]Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

These passages have absolutely nothing to do with abortion. It doesn't even mention pregnancy. I can't believe that pro-abortionists are using this to justify killing babies in the womb.

 

[Stan B]

Okay, fair point. But let’s be fair to my view as well: Do you know what the Mosaic Law says about brides who try to pass themselves off as virgins when they aren’t? Look up Deuteronomy 20:21-22. Here is what it says: “If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.”

Today there aren’t any Christian husbands-to-be who kill their brides-to-be for not having a hymen. Nobody these days follows the Mosaic Law, not even Jewish fundamentalists like the Haredi. By the same token, why would the scripture you quoted apply to modern times? The answer is it doesn’t.

Moonstone, Everything you have said here is refreshingly correct!!

The Law, of Course was not given to the Gentiles, but the progeny of Abraham. And as I have read the word, it comes clear the Bible at it's centre, is a book of genealogy, as revealed by Luke who records the genealogy of Jesus all the way back to Adam. To remove speculation about lineage strict genetic rules were applied throughout the generations.

Since the genealogy is followed patrilineally, the genealogy of the unmentioned females in the line, would include the female line leading up to King David. His grandmother was Rahab, the harlot, and Ruth the Moabite suggests that the female were not all that important to the purposes of the Bible. Once Jesus came, His genealogy ended, and the Bible ended.

But with the coming of Jesus are no longer under the law. Romans 8, begins by declaring there is no longer any condemnation or judgment for those who are in Christ. We have chosen to be released from the law of sin and death.

The Old Covenant Law has been updated to the New Covenant for those who choose it.

 

[EloyCraft]

As a Christian I believe in a God that let Himself be a one celled zygote. His human life began in that moment. Jesus didn't come to be our savior He came as our savior. One cell.

 

[EloyCraft]

know a number of women who have had abortions performed by God. They are usually called miscarriages (same word in the original). So if abortion is a sin, that would make God a sinner!!

Why would God create a child and cause it's death before it is born. Miscarriages happen because the powers of nature are hostile to human life since sin and death entered our world.

 

[Jim B]

Why would God create a child and cause it's death before it is born. Miscarriages happen because the powers of nature are hostile to human life since sin and death entered our world.

Your statement that the powers of nature are hostile to human life is very strange. If the powers of nature are hostile to human life, how can anything, human or not, be born?

God reigns supreme, even over pregnancies! However, sometimes there are fetal anomalies that require termination of pregnancies, generally because the fetus is malformed and has no chance of survival outside the womb.

My advice: get real!

 

[EloyCraft]

Your statement that the powers of nature are hostile to human life is very strange. If the powers of nature are hostile to human life, how can anything, human or not, be born?

Sin brought death. Death is not natural to human life. The flesh is rebellious to the will because it's members serve another law. Life isn't Paradise like before.

 

[Jim B]

"Paradise" lasted a very short time. It's impossible to recreate the garden of Eden in the real world.

"Death is not natural to human life" is one of the strangest statements I have ever read.

 

[amigo de christo]

Numbers 5:20-31
[20]But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
[21]Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
[22]And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
[23]And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
[24]And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
[25]Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
[26]And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
[27]And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
[28]And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
[29]This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
[30]Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
[31]Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

These passages have absolutely nothing to do with abortion. It doesn't even mention pregnancy. I can't believe that pro-abortionists are using this to justify killing babies in the womb.

SPOT ON RIGHT SISTER . Folks twist things to justify murderous behavoir .
march on in the LORD my sister . abortion is evil and as such let it not once be supported amongst believers .
We stand for the truth . March on sister .

 

[EloyCraft]

"Paradise" lasted a very short time. It's impossible to recreate the garden of Eden in the real world.

"Death is not natural to human life" is one of the strangest statements I have ever read.

I didn't say anything about making another paradise. But if you wish to know what God made when He made man you have to study life in paradise.
Here you are thinking our fallen state is natural. That death is natural.

How God made us is natural. After the fall the consequences of sin has changed our lives. We live in a state that is not natural to us. We are now pilgrims longing for home.

 

[Jim B]

I didn't say anything about making another paradise. But if you wish to know what God made when He made man you have to study life in paradise.
Here you are thinking our fallen state is natural. That death is natural.

How God made us is natural. After the fall the consequences of sin has changed our lives. We live in a state that is not natural to us. We are now pilgrims longing for home.

Our fallen state is just that; we are not living in paradise. It is neither natural nor unnatural. It is present reality. As is death.

 

[Moonstone Eterni]

Our fallen state is just that; we are not living in paradise. It is neither natural nor unnatural. It is present reality. As is death.

Are you implying that abortion is acceptable because of the presence of other sins in our world?

 

[EloyCraft]

Cç g. Vvvv

Our fallen state is just that; we are not living in paradise. It is neither natural nor unnatural. It is present reality. As is death.

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A rational being is a moral agent. Why would God create a moral person with no hope, purpose or reward for doing good? Especially if guilt is experienced for wrong doing and satisfaction for doing good? What would you do if there was no reason for doing good?

 

[GEN2REV]

Pearl, At my age I suppose I am neither pro or anti, because don’t think about it.

The Bible says children are a gift from God, given to us with no conditions or strings attached. They are a gift.

I know a number of women who have had abortions performed by God. They are usually called miscarriages (same word in the original). So if abortion is a sin, that would make God a sinner!!

It's pretty hard to believe that a True, Holy Spirit-filled Christian would post the things you're posting in this thread.

How can you have a heart for God and speak about Him so disgustingly?

Honestly.

 

[GEN2REV]

I hate these kinds of threads bc it disturbs me to find how many professing Christians believe it's okay to kill a baby.

"Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, ..."
Matthew 7:22-23
Matthew 25:41

As some of us here know very well, TLH, witchcraft is alive and well among Christians. Many of them know full well they are serving the dark lord, ... but there is yet a great number who do not have a clue.

Sad.

 

[Moonstone Eterni]

"Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, ..."
Matthew 7:22-23
Matthew 25:41

As some of us here know very well, TLH, witchcraft is alive and well among Christians. Many of them know full well they are serving the dark lord, ... but there is yet a great number who do not have a clue.

Sad.

To be fair, I don’t think supporting the so-called right to abortion is a condemnable offense for Christians. Having “pro-choice” views as believers doesn’t necessarily mean they will partake in abortions. Basically, I’m thinking these people haven’t spiritually matured as Christians enough yet; which is to say, spiritual ignorance on certain subjects will not automatically lead to hell (but again, only so long as they’re not actually partaking in those subjects like abortion).

Let me know your thoughts.

 

[GEN2REV]

To be fair, I don’t think supporting the so-called right to abortion is a condemnable offense for Christians. Having “pro-choice” views as believers doesn’t necessarily mean they will partake in abortions. Basically, I’m thinking these people haven’t spiritually matured as Christians enough yet; which is to say, spiritual ignorance on certain subjects will not automatically lead to hell (but again, only so long as they’re not actually partaking in those subjects like abortion).

Let me know your thoughts.

May I ask if you've ever aborted a child before?

I believe that if someone, who has committed this act, has the Holy Spirit, they will be given an indescribably profound experience of pain, sorrow and regret that they have "killed" a precious child of theirs, a life with unknowable potential, that was also a priceless gift from the Lord God Almighty.

And that this experience will never go away.

Ask me how I know.

 

[Moonstone Eterni]

May I ask if you've ever aborted a child before?

I believe that if someone, who has committed this act, has the Holy Spirit, they will be given an indescribably profound experience of pain, sorrow and regret that they have "killed" a precious child of theirs, a life with unknowable potential, that was also a priceless gift from the Lord God Almighty.

And that this experience will never go away.

Ask me how I know.

I haven’t had a child. In fact, I’ve never been married or been in a sexual relationship with a woman before. So yeah, maybe you’re right and I don’t fully grasp the severity of voicing support for abortion (even if such a person doesn’t partake in an abortion themselves). I’ll have to think about it more. Thanks for the input.

 

[TLHKAJ]

May I ask if you've ever aborted a child before?

I believe that if someone, who has committed this act, has the Holy Spirit, they will be given an indescribably profound experience of pain, sorrow and regret that they have "killed" a precious child of theirs, a life with unknowable potential, that was also a priceless gift from the Lord God Almighty.

And that this experience will never go away.

Ask me how I know.

I can attest to this. My abortions were forced and late term. Some may not quite understand how this works, but because I experienced severe trauma (satanic ritual abuse and MK Ultra) from the womb (before birth), I was born with a shattered mind and developed alter personalities. So probably 95% of my trauma was dissociated. When I was forced to endure late term abortions (which were used a sacrifices), I dissociated those experiences until my mind felt it was safe for me to remember.

But the fact that I dissociated the knowledge of those abortions did not prevent me from experiencing certain effects in my conscious life.

*From around age 10, I had a strong yearning to adopt all the abused and abandoned babies in the world and keep them safe.
*When I was married and had more children that I raised, without fail, as soon as I got to about the 6th or 7th month I would have recurring dreams that I was pregnant ...looking down at my belly, seeing my baby moving, feeling the kicks, feeling so much love. I'd see a tiny handprint on my belly and put my finger there...baby would grasp my finger. And at that point, as love was swelling in my heart .. my baby would slip out, tiny, bloody, mangled.
*When all my (known) 5 children would be around me, I'd always find myself counting, recounting, and feeling very strongly that "someone's missing."

Those were some of the effects that plagued me. When the memories came flooding back, it was literally gut wrenching. My husband would come home and find me doubled over, holding my stomach, weeping so intensely that I couldn't speak. No one can tell me that a mother doesn't know her baby is a living being. Even as a child (age 10, first time), I knew.

After those dissociated memories came back, and I brought that pain to the Lord ...those symptoms subsided.

 

[Moonstone Eterni]

I can attest to this. My abortions were forced and late term. Some may not quite understand how this works, but because I experienced severe trauma (satanic ritual abuse and MK Ultra) from the womb (before birth), I was born with a shattered mind and developed alter personalities. So probably 95% of my trauma was dissociated. When I was forced to endure late term abortions (which were used a sacrifices), I dissociated those experiences until my mind felt it was safe for me to remember.

But the fact that I dissociated the knowledge of those abortions did not prevent me from experiencing certain effects in my conscious life.

*From around age 10, I had a strong yearning to adopt all the abused and abandoned babies in the world and keep them safe.
*When I was married and had more children that I raised, without fail, as soon as I got to about the 6th or 7th month I would have recurring dreams that I was pregnant ...looking down at my belly, seeing my baby moving, feeling the kicks, feeling so much love. I'd see a tiny handprint on my belly and put my finger there...baby would grasp my finger. And at that point, as love was swelling in my heart .. my baby would slip out, tiny, bloody, mangled.
*When all my (known) 5 children would be around me, I'd always find myself counting, recounting, and feeling very strongly that "someone's missing."

Those were some of the effects that plagued me. When the memories came flooding back, it was literally gut wrenching. My husband would come home and find me doubled over, holding my stomach, weeping so intensely that I couldn't speak. No one can tell me that a mother doesn't know her baby is a living being. Even as a child (age 10, first time), I knew.

After those dissociated memories came back, and I brought that pain to the Lord ...those symptoms subsided.

Your testimony is strong. There is a Christian woman out there who isn’t sure what to think about the abortion subject, and maybe she is thinking about having one. She will read your story and decide to give her unborn baby a chance at life.

It must have been very hard to share what happened to you. Believe me, by posting your testimony you will have changed the heart of a reader who may have held “pro-choice” leanings. Never be afraid to tell the truth about the horrors of abortion; it will change someone’s heart and save a life.