ABOUT BAPTISM

[Carl]

Under grace, you know, that gospel that Jesus sent Paul to preach to the Gentile that did not include the commands under the Law of Moses. Under grace People are saved by placing their faith in what God (Jesus) did on the cross. People can not be saved by what they do. Only faith in what God (Jesus) did on the cross will save a person. Jesus paid for the past, present, and future sins of mankind but if a person rejects that payment they are not saved.

It is not our faith, because before anybody has become saved they have no faith, they have nothing, because they are spiritually dead.

 

[Dave L]

WRONG.

What was the INTENT of the men being spoken of here??
It was BAPTISM. They received a special message from an ANGEL of God. That's why they received the Holy Spirit.

Even the DEMONS believe (James 2:19) - but they'll never receive the Holy Spirit.
Believing is just the beginning - NOT the end.

First, baptism = immersion or dipping. Never sprinkling. Secondly you would drown babies if you actually baptized them. And thirdly, one must believe (have eternal life according to Jesus) before seeking baptism.

 

[H. Richard]

Mark 1:7-8
7 And he preached, saying,"There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose.
8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
NKJV

1 Cor 12:12-13
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free — and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
NKJV

 

[Hidden In Him]

20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water...

At the end of verse 20, we read that, eight souls, were saved ""through" water. It is not that they were saved "by" water; they were saved "through" the water. Water was not the savior, but the judgment through which God brought them.

This is an excellent point, and produces good theology for those who will meditate on it. The Lord also brought the Israelites through the Red Sea, which Paul likewise paralleled to water baptism (1 Corinthians 10:2). These parallels strengthen the idea that we suffer death to our former life when we undergo baptism. All men either choose death to their old life or they will suffer the judgment of death from God (the world's population who died in Noah's flood and Pharaoh's armies who died in the Red Sea both symbolize those who refused to die to the old life, and so suffered His judgment).

But now that brings me to this understanding of water baptism. It is symbolic of what must happen spiritually in a believer's life: Death to the old man, followed by newness of life in the Spirit. One can go through the ritual of water baptism a thousand times, but if they have not died to the old life they have not accomplished what the ritual was intended to symbolize. By contrast, those who truly die to the old man without the experience of water baptism have fulfilled what the Lord commanded them to do.

It reminds me of this parable:

"But what do you think? A certain man had two sons, and he came to the first, and said, 'Son, go work today in my vineyard.' He answered and said, 'I will not,' but afterward he repented and went. And he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered, and said, 'I go, sir,' but he went not. Which of these two did the will of his father?" They said to him, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Verily I say unto you, that the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness and you believed him not. But the publicans and the harlots believed him. And you, when you had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him." (Matthew 21:28-32)

Thus, by "born of water and the Spirit," the Lord could not have been referring to merely outward rituals, but to a truly changed life - death to life in the flesh and resurrection through the Spirit unto newness of life.

Btw, the text in 1 Peter should actually read, "The like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." The "resurrection" here is a reference to our resurrection in Spirit. We have a good conscience towards God because we have been resurrected in Spirit through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon us - A proof that we have been accepted by God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

First, baptism = immersion or dipping. Never sprinkling. Secondly you would drown babies if you actually baptized them. And thirdly, one must believe (have eternal life according to Jesus) before seeking baptism.

Tell that to GOD, who inspired Ezekiel to write:

Ezekiel 36:25-27
I will sprinkle clean WATER over you to make you clean; from all your impurities and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU so that you walk in my statutes, observe my ordinances, and keep them.

Now, WHO do you think is right - Almighty God - or YOU??

 

[Dave L]

Tell that to GOD, who inspired Ezekiel to write:

Ezekiel 36:25-27
I will sprinkle clean WATER over you to make you clean; from all your impurities and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU so that you walk in my statutes, observe my ordinances, and keep them.

Now, WHO do you think is right - Almighty God - or YOU??

You still haven't any NT examples of infant baptism (sprinkling) or baptismal regeneration.

“Therefore, if God gave them the same gift that He also gave to us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, how could I possibly hinder God?”” (Acts 11:17) (HCSB)

Holy Spirit received by all who believe.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It is true it just is the truth and you cant handle the truth, anything that opposes the lies of your religion you must destroy just like the devil.

I just PROVED to you that it isn't true (James 2:19).
Time for another Bible lesson . . .

Simply believing and thinking that this is enough to save you is called "easy-believism" - and it is anti-Biblical.
Faith is an ACTION word. Faith = Belief + Works (obedience). Jesus said explicitly that NOT everybody who calls on Him will be saved - bot only the one who DOES the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21).

If you think just believing is enough - you're no better off than the DEMONS (James 2:19) . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You still haven't any NT examples of infant baptism (sprinkling) or baptismal regeneration.

“Therefore, if God gave them the same gift that He also gave to us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, how could I possibly hinder God?”” (Acts 11:17) (HCSB)

Holy Spirit received by all who believe.

Because we're NOT discussing Infant Baptism.
ONE argument at a time. If you want to discuss that - it will be a separate discussion.

Now - address the verses I have presented already regarding Baptismal Regeneration . . .

 

[Dave L]

Because we're NOT discussing Infant Baptism.
ONE argument at a time. If you want to discuss that - it will be a separate discussion.

Now - address the verses I have presented already regarding Baptismal Regeneration . . .

It includes infant baptism in several denominations. But Peter says we receive the Holy Spirit in conjunction with believing. “Therefore, if God gave them the same gift that He also gave to us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, how could I possibly hinder God?”” (Acts 11:17) (HCSB)

Holy Spirit received by all who believe.

 

[Nancy]

"Some will disagree but I believe he is talking about our physical birth "birth to flesh" in verse 5 and that there is another birth, "birth to spirit" which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (NOT MAN)"​

I have thought this for sometime now. Have only brought it up a couple of times but most on here did not seem to receive it. I can see nothing at all of "baptism" in the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus .

​

 

[mjrhealth]

I just PROVED to you that it isn't true (James 2:19).
Time for another Bible lesson . . .

Simply believing and thinking that this is enough to save you is called "easy-believism" - and it is anti-Biblical.
Faith is an ACTION word. Faith = Belief + Works (obedience). Jesus said explicitly that NOT everybody who calls on Him will be saved - bot only the one who DOES the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21).

If you think just believing is enough - you're no better off than the DEMONS (James 2:19) . . .

How can a man who knows not the truth teach another man anything, you know not of which spirit you speak,...

well it says it is grace by faith and faith is belief, but those who dont believe need to try impress God as you and the SDA insist upon.

 

[Enoch111]

Simply believing and thinking that this is enough to save you is called "easy-believism" - and it is anti-Biblical.

We should stick with what is actually stated in Scripture:

ACTS 16 [to be followed by Romans 10]
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [SIMPLY BELIEVING IS SUFFICIENT]
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. [BAPTISM FOLLOWS CONVERSION]
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Now who would accuse Paul of preaching Easy-Believism?

 

[BreadOfLife]

It includes infant baptism in several denominations. But Peter says we receive the Holy Spirit in conjunction with believing. “Therefore, if God gave them the same gift that He also gave to us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, how could I possibly hinder God?”” (Acts 11:17) (HCSB)

Holy Spirit received by all who believe.

Circumcision was the way a Jew entered the Covenant with God.
Baptism is the way WE enter the NEW Covenant with God.

Newborn BABIES were Circumcised at 8 days old. These babies were raised in the Jewish faith by their parents/guardians.
Newborn BABIES are now Baptized. These babies are raised in the Christian faith by their parents/guardians.

EVERY OT Type has an NT fulfillment.
EVERY NT Fulfillment is more glorious and perfect than its OT Type – WITHOUT exception.

Paul uses the terms, “circumcision of the heart” and the “circumcision of Christ” (Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17) to describe the reality of Circumcision being a spiritually inward act, not merely an outward sign. The Old Testament type that was Circumcision is now Baptism. And, whereas, Circumcision was only applied to male Jews – Baptism applies to ALL in the Christian family.

Finally – the Early Church Fathers were UNANIMOUS in the teaching that this was an APOSTOLIC TEACHING:

Irenaeus
"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: INFANTS AND CHILDREN, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
"BAPTIZE FIRST THE CHILDREN, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Origen
"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given EVEN TO INFANTS. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

"The Church received FROM THE APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage
"As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified WITHIN THE EIGHTH DAY AFTER HIS BIRTH. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Gregory of Nazianz
"Do you have an INFANT CHILD? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, LET THE INFANT BE SANCTIFIED FROM CHILDHOOD. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!" (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).

John Chrysostom
"You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason WE BAPTIZE EVEN INFANTS, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members" (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).

Augustine
"What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. SINCE OTHERS RESPOND FOR CHILDREN, SO THAT THE CELEBRATION OF THE SACRAMENT MAY BE COMPLETE FOR THEM, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).

"The custom of Mother Church in BAPTIZING INFANTS IS CERTAINLY NOT TO BE SCORNED, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

 

[BreadOfLife]

How can a man who knows not the truth teach another man anything, you know not of which spirit you speak,...

well it says it is grace by faith and faith is belief, but those who dont believe need to try impress God as you and the SDA insist upon.

And I have repeatedly proved you WRONG that Faith does NOT = Belief.
Belief is simply a component of Faith.

James 2:19 CLEARLY states that even the DEMONS believe – so YOU are no better off than they are if that’s what you think . . .

STUDY your Bible – don’t just quote it . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

We should stick with what is actually stated in Scripture:

ACTS 16 [to be followed by Romans 10]
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [SIMPLY BELIEVING IS SUFFICIENT]
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. [BAPTISM FOLLOWS CONVERSION]
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Now who would accuse Paul of preaching Easy-Believism?

I DON’T accuse Paul of easy-believism - I’m accusing YOU guys of it because you don’t understand Scripture.
This is simply another case of cherry-picking verses.

I’ll do the SAME thing. According to the following verses, to be saved, you MUST:

- Sell everything you have and give it to the poor (Matt. 19:21)
- Pick up your cross DAILY (Luke 9:23)
- DO the will of God (Matt. 7:21)
- KEEP His Commandments (John 14:15)
- Be BAPTIZED (Mark 6:16, John 3:5)
- Perform WORKS of mercy (Matt. 25:31-46, James 2:14-26)

YOUR problem is that you don’t understand how to properly divide Scripture and read it in its proper CONTEXT.
Believing is a good START – but it is NOT the ends . . .

 

[Dave L]

Circumcision was the way a Jew entered the Covenant with God.
Baptism is the way WE enter the NEW Covenant with God.

Newborn BABIES were Circumcised at 8 days old. These babies were raised in the Jewish faith by their parents/guardians.
Newborn BABIES are now Baptized. These babies are raised in the Christian faith by their parents/guardians.

EVERY OT Type has an NT fulfillment.
EVERY NT Fulfillment is more glorious and perfect than its OT Type – WITHOUT exception.

Paul uses the terms, “circumcision of the heart” and the “circumcision of Christ” (Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17) to describe the reality of Circumcision being a spiritually inward act, not merely an outward sign. The Old Testament type that was Circumcision is now Baptism. And, whereas, Circumcision was only applied to male Jews – Baptism applies to ALL in the Christian family.

Finally – the Early Church Fathers were UNANIMOUS in the teaching that this was an APOSTOLIC TEACHING:

Irenaeus
"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: INFANTS AND CHILDREN, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
"BAPTIZE FIRST THE CHILDREN, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Origen
"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given EVEN TO INFANTS. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

"The Church received FROM THE APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage
"As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified WITHIN THE EIGHTH DAY AFTER HIS BIRTH. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Gregory of Nazianz
"Do you have an INFANT CHILD? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, LET THE INFANT BE SANCTIFIED FROM CHILDHOOD. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!" (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).

John Chrysostom
"You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason WE BAPTIZE EVEN INFANTS, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members" (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).

Augustine
"What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. SINCE OTHERS RESPOND FOR CHILDREN, SO THAT THE CELEBRATION OF THE SACRAMENT MAY BE COMPLETE FOR THEM, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).

"The custom of Mother Church in BAPTIZING INFANTS IS CERTAINLY NOT TO BE SCORNED, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

Scripture does not support infant baptism, or baptismal regeneration. Zero support for either.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Scripture does not support infant baptism, or baptismal regeneration. Zero support for either.

And that's a big fat LIE for which I have already proven you WRONG . . .

Ezekiel 36:25-27
I will sprinkle clean WATER over you to make you clean; from all your impurities and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU so that you walk in my statutes, observe my ordinances, and keep them.

John 3:5
“Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of WATER and SPIRIT.

WATER and SPIRIT transforming the person by giving the a new heart and a new spirit. and washing away their impurity.
That pretty much a textbook definition of "Baptismal Regeneration" . . .

 

[Dave L]

And that's a big fat LIE for which I have already proven you WRONG . . .

Ezekiel 36:25-27
I will sprinkle clean WATER over you to make you clean; from all your impurities and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU so that you walk in my statutes, observe my ordinances, and keep them.

John 3:5
“Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of WATER and SPIRIT.

WATER and SPIRIT transforming the person by giving the a new heart and a new spirit. and washing away their impurity.
That pretty much a textbook definition of "Baptismal Regeneration" . . .

You have zero NT support for your claims. And the NT replaced the OT.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have zero NT support for your claims. And the NT replaced the OT.

As I told you before - that is a LIE.
I just got done comparing the 2 passages in Scripture for you:
the Prophecy from the OT (Ezek. 36:25-27) and the Fulfillment from the NT (John 3:5).

Either you're really dense - or you're simply being dishonest again.

And what part of PROPHECY do you not understand??
Ezekiel 36:22-27 doesn't pertain the the Mosaic Law - it is a PROPHECY about Baptism.

Besides, Einstein - the NT didn't "replace" the OT - it FULFILLED it.
That's the whole purpose of prophecy . . .

 

[mjrhealth]

And I have repeatedly proved you WRONG that Faith does NOT = Belief.
Belief is simply a component of Faith.

James 2:19 CLEARLY states that even the DEMONS believe – so YOU are no better off than they are if that’s what you think . . .

STUDY your Bible – don’t just quote it . . .

yes and you are the evidence of that, the difference is that we believe to salvation, they cant.