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You are right. I take exception to the use of James 2:17 in the grace gospel. James was a Jew under the law writing to the Jews under the law James 1:1

Under the law if a person did not do the requirements of the law then it showed that person had no faith in the law.

Under grace a person places their faith in the fact that Jesus' shed blood pays for all their sins of the flesh. They place their faith in Jesus' works, not their own and give Jesus ALL the credit and glory.

 

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

I love that verse. Don't you just love that verse? We are not under the law, we are under grace.

But...well, there's more.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Sin? What is this "sin" Paul speaks of, here?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Wait. Didn't Jesus tell John that we aren't under the law, but under grace? Did he miss the memo?

What's up, Paul?

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Evidently, we must still obey...either sin unto death, or obedience unto righteousness. There doesn't seem to be an option c.

This is not a matter of who gets credit for what. Obviously, the Glory belongs to God, always. But it is a matter of obedience...submission. We don't like the idea of submission, our carnal minds fight against such a concept.
But, Jesus...you know, Jesus? The One Whose grace you are depending on? Yeah, that Jesus. Jesus insists upon it:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
...
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
...
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
...

Perhaps grace is a bit like faith. You know, Abraham was justified by his faith...but ol' Abe wasn't just sitting around the tent going "I have faith, I have faith". No, Abraham acted on his faith. Abraham obeyed God without question, didn't he? It is fair to say that Abraham's faith was obedient faith.
It is the same with grace. It's no good to sit around going "I'm saved by grace. I'm saved by grace. Halelujah, I'm saved by grace" and do nothing. Such will find themselves counted among the goats...

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world
...
The goats, however, do not fare quite so well:

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

The difference? The sheep were not sitting around, glorying in the grace that Jesus extended to them. They rolled up their sleeves...and they went to work.

You think that you have His grace, and all you need to do is to cry unto Him, "Lord, Lord!"

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Sobering words...to those who have ears to hear them.

 

I thank my God (Jesus) that I am not under the law because the law condemns. Jesus knows that I live in sinful flesh and He made a salvation that can save sinners.

When you mix law with grace you come up with the writing in the above.

It seems that some want to put those that God has set free from the law and place them back under the law. These same people know that they sin in the flesh just as everyone else does. These search the scriptures to find all that they can take out of context that condemns people if they sin. They fail to see that the child of God has his/her sins covered by the shed blood on the cross.

You said "The difference? The sheep were not sitting around, glorying in the grace that Jesus extended to them. They rolled up their sleeves...and they went to work.

I will counter this with what Moses said to the people of Israel.

Ex 14:13-14
13 And Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. Stand still, and see the salvation of the Lord, which He will accomplish for you today. For the Egyptians whom you see today, you shall see again no more forever.
14 The Lord will fight for you, and you shall hold your peace."
NKJV

 

Yes, Jesus knows that our hearts are desperately wicked. You say the law condemns. Which of those Ten Commandments is it that condemns you, then? Do you put other Gods before our God, or make idols and worship them? You call yourself by His name...do you live up to it, or have you taken His name in vain? We already know that most "Christians" have forgotten His Sabbath, so I won't ask you that. Do you honor your parents? Have you killed anyone? Committed adultery? Stolen? Lied about anyone? Lusted for what does not belong to you?
Since you are "not under the law"...is it okay for you to do these things? Why or why not?

You do know that I did not write the above. God inspired the men who wrote those things. I am just repeating the things God said. Perhaps you should take it up with Him.

It seems that some want a license to sin.

The difference is that those same people are struggling to obey, not just giving in to their sinful flesh.

Actually, they stay as close to their Shepherd as they can, seeking to follow His example in all things. They are not searching the scriptures looking for loopholes.

Then there are those who figure that, since Jesus paid for their sins on the cross, they might as well get His money's worth...

Yes. They saw to the needs of the least of these, as Jesus had said. This is what separated them from the goats, who were condemned for their idleness.

You do know that these same people wound up wandering the wilderness for forty years, till their dead bodies dropped in the sand, right?

Num 14:33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Do you know why?

 

You are right, many are trying to obey the law even though we are not under the law. You are trying to put everyone under the law even though you know you still sin in the flesh and the law condemns you for it. Perhaps you should put your faith in what God has done for those that are condemned by the law.

A person who has been made a child of God will never be condemned by the law because Jesus kept the law FOR them.

I personally am glad that I am not copy and pasting every scripture that I can find that talks about sin in the flesh and indicating that if you are a child of God you will lose your salvation if you sin. God knows you will sin. That is why He did the work on the cross for those that sin. I don't understand how those who claim to be a Christian who loves everyone and then puts a guilt trip on them. Personally I don't judge the children of God because they are God's children and just like me, they know they still sin in the flesh but trust in Jesus' shed blood .

Rom 14:4
4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
NKJV

Every sin that mankind has sinned and will sin has been paid for by Jesus' shed blood on the cross. This is the promise of the gospel of God's grace. The only sin that condemns a person today is the sin of un-belief; to not believe Jesus' shed blood has paid for all their sins of the flesh, past, present, and future. God will not hold them guiltless when they belittle the work of His Son on the cross by advocating that man's works are what keeps them saved..

Rom 14:10-13
10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God."
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.
NKJV

Spouting works make many think they can not be saved because in their own heart they know they still sin. People will be held accountable for their works of perverting the grace of God.

 

This is insane. Why would anyone not believe if believing meant such grace? The sin of unbelief is not simply not believing in Jesus.

The sin of unbelief at the time of Jesus had to do with removing God from your thoughts. Unbelief in God is a forced mental state as belief is the default Rom 1:20. Now in the NT belief in Jesus being God is God given. 1 Cor 12:3 Nobody can call Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

You can believe and muster up all the faith you can....it still equals NAUGHT in God's eyes.

This faith / belief in Jesus is ONLY given after our hearts and minds are examined Jer 17:10. Now our hearts will only be after God if we have the works that prove it. What you are espousing seems to be positive thought > works. Just because many do works for vanity / self empowerment. That is absolutely insane. Completely throwing the baby and the bath out.

Anybody in a mortal sin does NOT love Jesus and will be in HELL one-day, despite how much faith they THINK they have.

 

Joy. Yet another thread on faith that has no clue what faith is all about. No offence to you MJR but really, these threads are tiresome and the truth made to seem like such a joke. Do you really believe your self mustered faith is worth something? Am I misinterpreting you?

There are four different types of faith mentioned in scripture and only the one that is God given is saving faith.

1. Faith that there is a God. We all have unless we are in active unbelief / a fool. See Rom 1:20 and Psalm 14:1.
2. Faith that God is great. Faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain.
3. Faith that God is good. As Rom 9 explains, God could be bad. But as David says give thanks because He is good Psalm 136:1.
4. Faith that Jesus is God. Nobody can believe this unless it is revealed to us 1 Cor 12:3. Having good works points to a heart that hates what is evil. A heart after God's. Having positive thoughts (faith in faith) points to a crazy person thinking God is dumb.

 

1. You state Abraham had faith. What faith did he have?
2. You state ''works come from God because we have faith''. What works come from God? What faith is this you referring too?
3. You say this ''All our works will never be perfect, anyone who insists on keeping the law, is making a fool of them self, for only one such as Jesus can do so, and they are making a mockery of Christ by undoing all His good work by there own.'' So people keeping the law of ''no adultery'' are fools? Only Jesus can keep this law?

 

1. What did He believe exactly? A. That the unseen God exists. B. That the unseen God can do great things. C. That the unseen God was talking to him. D. What the unseen God said would come to pass. E. that the unseen God was mad, but he better listen or else. F. He believed He is good and hence completely trusted his son in His hands.

Abraham's faith was only accounted to him as righteousness because HE APPROVED OF RIGHTEOUSNES FROM A RIGHTEOUS GOD. He KNEW God was good and he approved of Him and His ways. IE He knew God had one hell of good reason for wanting him to do something so insane. So lets be clear that it is traced back to his desire for what is good. Not POSITIVE THOUGHT / believing the ''''unseen is seen'''. Can we please be clear on that already. Your self mustered faith that the unseen is seen or that what God says is true is about as significant and relevant to Christianity as mud on shoe.

2. I am not disputing this. We just need to understand what faith he acted on. If it was simply ''faith that there is a God or that God is powerful or that it is God speaking to him''....he would not be the father of anyone... .

3. I agree with Bard. In a relationship with our spouse we work on not cheating for example. If we didn't love them, we wouldn't work on it.

4. You are missing the boat by miles / making a terrible assumption. I would imagine there are only 1/1000 000 Christians that believe works will save them. Then I think there are probably 50% of Christians that believe God is ok with whatever sin they do. The truth is that works show us 1 Cor 11:31 that we are right with God.

So what you seem to be proposing is that we not be sin conscious. I pray for the day you realize that that is evil. It is because we love God that we are extra / hyper aware of what upsets Him.

Now I see you also group all sin as sin. Playing dumb + twisting scripture into hyper grace will not alleviate you or anyone before God.

Every person on this planet and more so Christians CAN DISCERN the difference in evil between giving a kid too much candy VS raping the kid. Stop this insanity already.

I suggest you read 1 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 6:1-13.

 

You asked me, would I do those things if there were no law...and I answered you that God seemed to think that those laws were necessary.
Yes, if you are walking in love you will not do those things, because those laws will be written, not on tablets of stone, but in your heart.

After all your fussing and fuming, the bottom line is...you keep the same laws that I do.

 

I just love this! The scripture tell us why God called Abraham RIGHTEOUS and it was not what you have said. You are doing what so many do, rewriting scripture to fit your theology.

Abraham believed the promises God made to him, period.

 

Abraham was not just sitting around the tent, going "I have faith. I have faith."

Abraham believed God, and he acted on his faith. When God told him to leave his father's house, the seventy year old Abram did not hesitate...he packed up everything he owned, took his wife, and left everything he had ever known to go to a place he knew nothing about.
And if that were not enough, when God told him to make a human sacrifice of his only son, the child of promise, Abraham did not hesitate...he took Isaac, trussed him up, and was ready to slit his throat, when God stopped him.

Do you think you have that kind of faith? Be honest, now...could you tie your child down and kill him because God told you to?

 

I just love this! I said Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness and you just accused me of not saying that. The only thing I am attempting to manipulate is the brainwashed state of your mind. I would expect a Christian to grasp what was driving Abraham.

Nobody could be a prophet of God if they did not approve of Him and His ways. All scripture is clear on this. If Abraham was an evil man from Sodom, God would not even notice his.... ''faith'' :lol:.

We first see Abraham is good / approves of God and His ways / His righteousness when he upholds his covenant to God over the temptation of the King of Sodom. We see it many times after he offered to sacrifice his son. The discussion with God over Sodom alone is needed to prove this. Now God was very clear to Abraham that if he walked in sin he would lose the promises. Gen 17:1 I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2. Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.

 

We are free in Christ when we know we are in Christ. We only know we are in Christ after we examine ourselves 1 Cor 11:31, Phil 2:12. A good tree does not bear bad fruit.